What's the difference: Lindy Hop Vs. East Coast Swing? [Archive]

Steve Pastor

09-27-2011, 05:00 PM

"East Coast Swing" is the name that came to be used for what had been taught for decades as: the Lindy Hop, the favorite form of "Jitterbug" of New Yorkers (Arthur Murray 1947), Swing (whether its called Swing, Lindy or Jitterbug) (Murray 1954), Swing is the newer title (for Jitterbug, Lindy Hop, etc) (Murray 1959).

Astaire (1962) declared that Lindy is the new name for Lindy Hop, which was a consolidation of Charleston, Black Bottom, and Shag.
"Lindy" was also used by many other authors.

Meanwhile in the early 40s in Los Angeles, Murray studios taught "jitterbugging or New Yorker (West Coast name for Lindy Hop)", and smooth swing. "Western Swing" was also being taught, probably late 40s, early 50s for sure.

In the late 50s Larue Haile mentioned "Eastern Swing", where the woman rocked back, as opposed to "Western Swing" where the woman walked forward, instead of rocking.

"Western Swing/ West Coast Swing" was used in a 1961 text written in Los Angeles (edging out Skippy Blair for first known written record of that usage).

I have come to believe that "West Coast Swing" and "East Coast Swing" did not come into common usage until the mid 80s when country western became popular (what WAS Western Swing? was it cowboy swing or what?) , and, perhaps more importantly, the old Lindy Hoppers rose out of obscurity to talk about and teach "Lindy Hop" as they had done it in the 30s and early 40s.

Steve Pastor

09-27-2011, 05:08 PM

aesthetic differences ?

Check out this article on differences within Lindy Hop.

http://swungover.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/savoy-style-vs-hollywood-style-a-fight-to-the-death-hopefully/

I think it's very improtant that we remember that what we see on film of Lindy Hop was by professional dancers.

See the Arthur Murray Dance Party clip to see what "Jitterbug" or is it "East Coast"?? can look like when danced by professionals.

achilles007

09-27-2011, 06:01 PM

absolute tremendous article, Mr. Pastor!

That is a link I will have locked-and-loaded into my bookmarks!!

Many thanks

tangotime

09-28-2011, 06:30 AM

" .
I have come to believe that "West Coast Swing" and "East Coast Swing" did not come into common usage until the mid 80s

Hi Steve.. define "common " for me from your perspective .

As you may know, it was being referenced that way in the very late 50s in A/M. And, the " charts " in the LA studios certainly, only, as I recall, listed WCS in 1960. In matter of fact, the annual Medal Ball at the Palladium( Calif. one ) that same yr. a show was put on by all the DD doing a WCS routine .

Thinking back to when I first taught in Atlanta ( 1975 ) WCS had a strong base in the city, holding weekly dances .

mjnemeth

09-28-2011, 07:01 AM

I've had lindy hop lessons several times and do use a lindy spin in ESC.
I just don't do lindy hop as a dance. What stands out in my memory is,
lots of 8 count patterns, different hand hold (at least that how I lead a lindy spin) much more circular

Steve Pastor

09-28-2011, 12:27 PM

Haile (195?) described "Western Swing"

Yerrington and Outland (LA) 1961 Although they use the term "West Coast Swing" once, they repeatedly use the name "Western Swing"

Heaton 1973 (BYU) has only "Western Swing"

Blair 1978 "Western Swing - The name in common usage among Chain as well as Independent Studios to describe SLOTTED SWING"

Butler 1980 (New York) has only "Western Swing"

Heifetz 1982 wrote that Country Western dancers in LA did "Western Swing", but did not describe it. Maria Cracknell who taught CW in Santa Monica in the late 70s told me that people did "West Coast Swing" on occassion.
(None of the CW dance books from the late 70s / early 80s use the term "Western Swing, but none of them were written in LA.)

Blair 1994 "dance was called Western Swing and Sophisticated Swing in Chain Studios, and even independent studios. Many Studios still use those names today (1994).

Meanwhile, there are people down in Houston who began using the name "Western Swing" for, apparently, Two Step with fancy turns!

Steve Pastor

09-28-2011, 12:33 PM

Oh, in the later half of the 50s, "Lindy" or something with the same steps, but more of an up and down movement, started to be called "Rock 'n' Roll".

Sylva 1958
Murray 1959

Teenagers had been adding a rock step to the Bop, which gave you "Bop Swing", according to Sylva (1956), making it just about the same as Lindy/Rock n Roll.

opendoor

09-28-2011, 02:22 PM

..in the later half of the 50s, "Lindy" ..started to be called "Rock 'n' Roll".

Do you know the reasons for this development? And do you know why the european variant of Rock n´roll was named Boogie Woogie? And do you know why East coast swing trades in Europe as Jive, and in France as Be-Bop? And... And.... And (sorry)

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

;)

Steve Pastor

09-28-2011, 03:09 PM

Do you know the reasons for this development?

Rock 'n' Roll was a "new" kind of music to the general public. The Bop, which "teenagers" are credited with creating, didn't catch on with adults. (It was rather energetic. See Kay Wheeler dance in Hot Rod Gang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hpw18Gv-eM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hpw18Gv-eM) )
Rock n roll didn't really sell with adults in the 50s, either. It was music for teens, more so than swing (music) had been in the second half of the 30s.
"Swing" (dance) or whatever could just use a single and/or double rhythm and work quite well with the prevailing "less swingie" rock n roll beat.

I found a nice chapter on Jive in Modern Ballroom dance, first published in 1973.

"The style they codified and which has been so highly developed is what we call the 'English Style' and, with the possible exception of the United States of America, it has influenced modern ballroom dancing throughout the world."

The author was writing about developments in the 20s, when for instance Foxtrot, an American invention, was standardized - by teachers in England, but I think you get the idea.

"Bop" was very popular in the US as a synomyn for rock n roll circa 1955-1958 (I've found a handful of Bop songs in the LA area starting in 1955, almost all by "country western" musicians. There were 248 titles that I know of by 1958.)

I think people just liked the sound of the words Be-Bop and/or Bop and it became associated with fast/energetic music.

opendoor

09-28-2011, 03:27 PM

Thanks for your profound answers. But, I fear every answer brings a lot of new questions ..

Steve Pastor

09-28-2011, 04:40 PM

Somehow, I knew that!

09-28-2011, 11:18 PM

What's the difference between Lindy hop and East Coast Swing?

I cant find any info aside from a couple of wikipedia articles saying ECS came from Lindy hop. Anything else as far as aesthetic differences is pretty much moot on the subject.

There are some technical differences... Lindy hop includes partnered charleston - which can crudely be described as moves that include a lot of kicks. Charleston is strictly an 8 count (or four count) dance and the lindy hop moves that come from Charleston are all 8 count moves. Every East Coast swing syllabus that I have seen included patterns with kicks that were 6-count, but no traditional 8-count charleston patterns.

It would appear that for reasons we can only speculate on, early Ballroom dance studio syllabus writers and teachers translated 8-count Charleston moves into 6-count patterns.

Aside from that, East Coast Swing and Lindy Hop would appear to be entirely the same dance if you read the written descriptions.

If you watch people dance what the local -local to me- ballroom studios call "East Coast Swing" and then watch what the local swing dancers call "Lindy Hop" they sure look different. I have had many Ballroom studio trained dancers tell me that if there are 8 count moves such as the Lindy Circle or Whip then it is Lindy Hop and not East Coast Swing; others opine that if there are triple steps rather than the simple slow-slow-rock-step then that implies Lindy Hop not East Coast Swing; But these are apparently people who have not read their own syllabi. The syllabi for East Coast Swing invariably include the 8-count "Lindy Circle" - usually as a silver level pattern.

After years of studying, competing in, and dancing socially all three - West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, and Lindy Hop, I am more and more inclined to agree with Dean Collins, who is oft quoted as saying "There are only two kinds of swing - Good, and Bad."

Just don't get me started on the music. IF it ain't a swing rhythm, its some other dance. (Let's just call it "Westie.")

-Does that muddy the water?

-SD

kayak

09-29-2011, 12:16 AM

Just don't get me started on the music. IF it ain't a swing rhythm, its some other dance. (Let's just call it "Westie.")

Sorry for the thread drift. Are there examples of swing music that are more modern than all those big band songs of the 20s and 30s? It is always funny going to a Lindy club dance and watching people dance to music that is older than their grandparents. Benny Goodman is great fun, but I can not think of any hugely popular modern swing songs. Benny Goodman was probably the equivalent of the U2 of his era.

Dancelf

09-29-2011, 12:28 AM

Sorry for the thread drift. Are there examples of swing music that are more modern than all those big band songs of the 20s and 30s?

There was a big swing craze in the 90s. Royal Crown Review, Squirrel Nut Zippers, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Brian Setzer Orchestra, Indigo Swing, plus of course a number of local bands that didn't get the big break.

More recently -- Buble, perhaps? His major influences are a bit later than the 30s, I believe.

I've been doing fjords all my life. For a fleeting moment they become fashionable and I get a major award.

I suspect that if you reach out to a professional lindy DJ, they'll have a long list of moderns in their regular rotation.

tangotime

09-29-2011, 01:23 AM

Do you know the reasons for this development? And do you know why the european variant of Rock n´roll was named Boogie Woogie?

And do you know why East coast swing trades in Europe as Jive, and in France as Be-Bop? And... And.... And (sorry)

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

;)

"We", the english, picked up these terms from the American servicemen based here in the 40s. They also were re inforced by songs with those words in the lyrics ( Andrew sisters for e.g. ).

As to ECS being called Jive, it isnt, and wasnt. Jive was an adaption of the swing genres the were present in the 40/50s that were modified to suit the the more decorous style of B/room.And we also "stole " that word from the States .

tangotime

09-29-2011, 01:27 AM

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

;)

Its a blend of Bop and some Lindy.. a little too contrived, from the way we used to dance .

Steve Pastor

09-29-2011, 12:22 PM

Long time ago TangoTime, and Butler's Encyclopedia of Social Dance made me aware of Bill Black's Combo, and the fact that their music was used for Western Swing / West Coast Swing in th eearly 60s. Many of Black's songs had a "shuffle rhythm". Shuffle rhythm is similar in nature to "swing". There is also a "country shuffle" that is similar.

Rockabilly, as in Gene Vincent's "Dance to the Bop" has swung triples, something is fairly common in the original rockabilly. Brian Setzer, for one, brought a rockabilly sensibility to his swing music.

Flat Shoes

10-02-2011, 05:10 AM

There are many many swing styles and names. Some names are reused for several styles, especially rock'n'roll and jive are used for very different things.

It's common to say that Lindy Hop is where it all comes from. But Lindy Hop is itself a blend of many different styles and influences, and there is no one true definition or way to dance Lindy. Also Lindy is in constant development, and is not the same today as it was "back then". (And even "back then" it was several things.)

Many of the styles are much simpler than Lindy, and they developed before internet and Youtube. Which means it was spread through people travelling and sharing what they knew, and people trying to imitate what they saw in movies or on TV. Also ever changing music caused the styles to change and adopt. What people danced to Benny Goodman and to Elvis Presley should look and feel different.

It's impossible, I think, to uniquely define Lindy, ECS and other "street" style swings. Maybe a bit easier when it comes to Boogie Woogie and WCS, which I think (note *think*) are slightly more studio driven.

So if you try to define ECS and Lindy and their differences, I think you will run into trouble. Because there are no clear boundaries, and you will run into exceptions and different opinions whenever you try to define any feature.

"Lindy is eight count, ECS is six count!"
"Yeah, but you do a lot of six count in Lindy, an you can do eight count in ECS!"
And so on.

But that doesn't mean they are not two different styles, because even they cannot be uniquely defined and clearly separated, I think you will find plenty dance examples that can be sorted into either of the categories.

Flat Shoes

10-02-2011, 05:14 AM

Do you know the reasons for this development? And do you know why the european variant of Rock n´roll was named Boogie Woogie? And do you know why East coast swing trades in Europe as Jive, and in France as Be-Bop? And... And.... And (sorry)

And do you know what this dance could be? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hRHfxl5Mg

;)

I'd call this Lindy, although the style is not very typical. It looks like they're trying to imitate Dean Collins from the movies. See for example this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Vi7wtFMw8

GGinrhinestones

10-02-2011, 09:27 AM

My understanding is that ECS (and jive) developed out of Lindy back in the 1940s/1950s. ECS was an AM effort to "simplify" Lindy for audiences that weren't quite down with the kicks, throws, tricks, or basically "high energy" that was (and still is) popular with Lindy. While they are very similar, the shoes a follow wears help to put things into perspective: dancing ECS, I'm in 3-inch open-toed latin shoes. Dancing Lindy, women are in dance sneakers or something similar, with a much lower and sturdier heel. If I tried dancing Lindy as I've seen in on YouTube recently, in my heels, I'd break an ankle.

Personally, I find ECS pretty tame compared to Lindy, or even jive. I struggle with ECS largely because it feels slowed down and blah compared to what swing "should" feel like to me.

Steve Pastor

10-02-2011, 11:08 PM

ECS was an AM effort to "simplify" Lindy for audiences that weren't quite down with the kicks, throws, tricks, or basically "high energy" that was (and still is) popular with Lindy.

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.
You've probably also "heard" that that many or most ballrooms banded "jitterbugging".
(I've only seen one actual article in a newspaper that states this - in the "Oregonian".)

If "most" people sat down, and you couldn't do tricks in popular ballrooms, I wonder how much "high energy" stuff could have been around.

I've often wondered this, and am becoming more convinced that people see Whitey's Lindy Hoppers as a norm for "Lindy Hoppers". Recently I saw Norma Miller's book where she wrote that people saw the pros dancing rehearsed, choreographed routines at the Savoy, and mistakenly thought they were regular social dancers.

So, Murray taught simple steps to beginners, as did just about any one who wrote about it while swing was happening. And most contemporary materials I've seen pretty much try to dissuade people from learning "tricks" before they've actually learned to dance.

LA dancers who danced shag, "jitterbuggers" (when you start comparing usage of "jitterbug" vs "Lindy Hop", you will find that "Lindy Hop" was relatively rare in the 30s and 40s, based on usage in the popular media) also had a bunch of tricks that they used to win contests, and eventually end up on film, too. They were not normal dancers, either.

So, I don't know, I look at the Arthur Murray people dancing on their show, and think, if you took enough lessons from Murray teachers ...
I'm beginning to think Murray has gotten a bad rap, just because he taught beginners.
(I don't think there are any WLH original instruction materials for beginners. You had to be cream of the crop to be asked to dance with Whitey's crew, or even hang around them at the Savoy.)

tangotime

10-03-2011, 05:56 AM

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.
You've probably also "heard" that that many or most ballrooms banded "jitterbugging".
(I've only seen one actual article in a newspaper that states this - in the "Oregonian".)

So, Murray taught simple steps to beginners, as did just about any one who wrote about it while swing was happening. And most contemporary materials I've seen pretty much try to dissuade people from learning "tricks" before they've actually learned to dance.

I'm beginning to think Murray has gotten a bad rap, just because he taught beginners.

Steve, heres some empirical evidence; in the UK in the early advent of Bop /Jitterbug, many public ballrooms did ban dancing that style. In fact, one public b/room eventually cordoned off a section just for the " boppers" . Even the public dance halls I ventured into in LA for e.g. I never saw anyone banned from dancing any form of "swing" , when appropriate music for rhythm type F/trots were played .( B/room people didnt like it ! ) .

As for beginners being "held back ", a claim still made today, the reasoning is sound.. strong foundations.

Also, A/M didnt restrict itself to beginners.. in matter of fact, most of my students in L.A. for. e.g. were Intern. style Silver and Gold levels ( my most advanced student ,was the regions 4 dance champ in the Pro/Am style with me ) . On my travels coaching in the early days, even in the unlikeleist places, one could invariably find advanced level students .

N.B. ..
theres also a certain irony here ,related to the B.R. world ignoring the "street "like dances that were then and now , common place .

Much of the material danced in Salsa for e.g. , came from the B.R. world who had originally adapted the street stuff to a more acceptable social level for their syllabi .

Steve Pastor

10-03-2011, 09:20 PM

tangotime

10-04-2011, 02:50 AM

TT, did the people who danced "swing" or "jitterbug" do "air steps" or "aerials" routinely on the ballroom floor?
And, you are saying that the "swing" / "jitterbug" people were in the minority in ballrooms, as I have read/heard repeatedly?

When it first "hit" the UK, the regular B/room schools would not allow it at their socials ( they didnt play that type of music ) . The public ballrooms like Hammersmith Palais for e.g. also had floor managers ( as I recall ) "tapping" couples on the shldr , saying no bopping/jiving. Eventually, there did become single nites where it was only Bop/Jive/R and R, that came in about 52/53 . Ted Heath, who was a major band in those times, always drew packed houses .

Aerials were not normally seen, but anything else was fair game.

tsb

10-06-2011, 09:00 AM

the terms can be interchangeable, but in my neck of the woods, i would put it this way:

people i would define as swing dancers have not learned how to do a lindy-hop "swingout" (which is a fundamental figure for people who dance lindy-hop) and for dancers, their basic or fallback step is a 6 count basic figure, while a lindy dancer's basic figure tends to be the swingout, although it's not uncommon for a lindy dancer to go into a lot of figures commonly associated with east coast swing - but they still go back to swingout moves. i can see this distinction at a nearby venue known as lindygroove (lindygroove.com). you can see swing dancers and lindy dancers there, although you don't see a lot of cross-pollinating as lindy dancers tend to dance with other lindy dancers, and within 6-8 weeks, the regulars know which category to which you belong. a friend of mine (who used to be a regular in DF, BTW) started going to lindygroove, and because he was new and an unknown quantity, everyone accepted his invitations to dance. but because he didn't know how to lead a swingout and had no inclination to learn how, the lindy follows began turning down his requests to dance. he stopped going shortly thereafter.

Steve Pastor

10-09-2011, 04:25 PM

I have seen text that states that, even back in the day, most dancers sat down when bands played really fast songs.

"Today, the vast majority of dancers stop dancing when real swing bands begin their swing numbers. The tempos of these pieces prove to be either too fast or too slow for enjoyable dancing." Metronome 1939 cited by DeVeaux 1989 in American Music

Steve Pastor

10-09-2011, 04:29 PM

I see, too, that a 1978 book, "Disco Dancing" has "Disco Swing", which we would now call East Coast Swing.

Steve Pastor

10-09-2011, 05:10 PM

Just looking at Frankie Manning's book (I'm doing a cleanup/organize thing)...

The breakaway, the dance that preceded the Lindy hop, maintained a ballroom hold while partners stepped slightly apart...
More swing in the music led to a longer lasting breach between the partners.

So, take out or lessen the swing, and you move back towards "the breakaway", but now it's called Eastern Swing, and who knows what else, and eventually "East Coast Swing". (sez me)

RenOrsino

10-11-2011, 01:05 PM

I dance and teach both Lindy and what I call vernacular East Coast Swing.

Lindy Hop is taught with an eight count basic called a "swing out". The lindy circle oft referred to in this post is a method for getting into closed position in order to facilitate tuck turns, side by side Charleston moves, etc. Depending on the beats per minute, lindy stays at eight counts or drops to six simply because there isn't time to do anything in eight. It has evolved quite a bit from its origins, which was more of a circular Charlestonesque rock-step kick turn rock step kick turn. That old fashioned Lindy is fun, but frenetic.

East Coast swing breaks into two categories of its own, triple step East Coast and the vernacular East Coast. You might call it "street style" as I read earlier. Personally, triple step East Coast is for Ballroom Dancers. Any song slow enough to make triple step East Coast comfortable for me I'll be dancing Lindy Hop. As the BPM rise and catch up with my injuries, general out-of-shapeness and lack of experience/practice with faster Lindy Hop, I'll dance single-step East Coast.

Both East Coast Swings are taught in a broken rhythm, (6 counts when the music has 8). In East Coast the dancers face each other, usually with a two hand hold. The basic travels side to side with a rock-step backward.

A Lindy basic, the swing out, begins with the two dancers facing, lead's left hand held to follow's right. The lead rock-steps, they come together and turn into closed position, continue the turn and the lead sends the follow back out to her original position as they complete the "circle".

They aren't dissimilar, particularly since one did indeed develop from the other. I believe the order of progression goes Charleston -> Lindy -> West Coast | East Coast.

If you're really curious about the history of swing, you can find Peter Loggin's blog, Jassdancer, on blogspot. Last I heard, he's considered the foremost jazz & swing dance historian in the US (if not the world). I've taken workshop lessons from him twice, balboa and Lindy and the man definitely knows what he's talking about.

Regardless of the technical differences, in the end it's all just dancing and one of the things I love about swing is that it's all about improvisation.

Hope all that helped someone. =)

tangotime

10-12-2011, 02:33 AM

East Coast swing breaks into two categories of its own, triple step East Coast and the vernacular East Coast.

.

Actually " we " teach ECS with 3 different rhythms, single time, double time and triple time . Each may be used depending upon the music being played. Been that way for over 50 yrs.

Ron AKA

10-12-2011, 11:05 AM

If you Google "West Coast Swing Canada - The Dance" you should get a first hit to a page that has a comparison chart of the various swing dances. Comparison categories include Origin, Difficulty, Music, Technique, Style, ... If you click on the name of each dance you are taken to a You Tube video example of the dance. The Lindy Hop video is certainly a good example of what I believe Lindy Hop to be. Quite a different dance compared to ECS.

rbazsz

10-13-2011, 03:53 AM

tangotime

10-13-2011, 04:34 AM

That chart is very useful. Click here (http://www.westcoastswingcanada.com/westcoastswingcanada_003.htm) to see it

There are several thingsI could challenge in their dance descriptions/origins. heres the 2 most egregious mistakes..

Salsa. " Origin.. S. and Central America " ??????

I guess Cuba/ NYC doesnt exist in their geographic world !

Jive " Origin.. N.America ".. if we are speaking terminolgy ,I will concede.. but the "dance "?.. I think not..

Steve Pastor

10-13-2011, 11:26 AM

Well, I passed on commenting yesterday, but since someone else went first...

I clicked on the CW link and... people doing "country western" with ballroom styling...
Apparently the author hasn't heard of Cotton Eye Joe, schottische, traveling cha cha, horseshoe... which aren't "borrowed" from anywhere. "Swing" was part of the "Western Swing" scene in LA, and most likely across the Southwest. There were many forms of "Cowboy" Swing that survived through the late 1970s early 80s.
And North America 1980's??? They are a bit late there! See Lloyd Shaw's books.

I challenge anyone to provide documentation that any dance was called "East Coast Swing" in the 1950s. I wonder, too, how many people have considered that the Bop was an influence on "Rock n Roll" dancing, rather than it coming directly from "Lindy Hop" or being "diluted Lindy Hop". (Bop with a rock step.)

Shag? Well, they were doing it a bunch of places around the country, (there was a shag faction as part of the LA jitterbug scene, and Lindy was called the New Yorker there) not just in the Southeastern region of the US.

And although it is the table that was singled out, the History section looks like a rewrite of Sonny Watson's version of WCS history, which is one of the reasons I started my own invetigation of the dance.

I guess I'm glad people find it useful, but...

Ron AKA

10-15-2011, 10:46 AM

Steve, I thought the link was useful as it has a side by side comparison of dances, rather than isolated descriptions of each dance. I'm sure if experts in each dance reviewed it, there would be lots of issues highlighted. I'm a beginner, but take some exception to the relative level of difficulty ranking of the WCS (high), ECS (Low), and Jive (high). I'm sure all can be made extremely difficult, but at the basic step level, WCS is a relatively slow 120 steps per minute. ECS and Jive are essentially the same and can hit the range of 220 steps per minute, when you maintain the triple step. Also not so sure about the origins of ECS and Jive. At least currently I believe ECS is American while Jive is International and probably standardized in the UK.

But that said, I think the descriptions highlight the difference between Lindy and ECS. Albeit, the Lindy video was at the elite level, and the ECS at a social level. Also not sure about all the arm waving in the ECS video. the steps are pretty much the same as what we learned in Jive, but no hand waving. Perhaps that is an ECS variation? On Lindy, there is a local club that does it, and we considered taking lessons, until we found out what it was. I'm sure it can be toned down, but with both of us around 60, and my wife having artificial hips, it looks like a disaster waiting to happen. This club does the style shown in the video. ECS or Jive is much more appropriate for our age. I'm sure WCS would be fine too with the much slower pace.