Musicality?

[MacMoto]

I've come across an interesting article written by Edie the Salsafreak:

Focus on the Music FIRST … The Beat (Timing) SECOND…!!! (http://www.dancefreak.com/stories/Focus_on_the_Music_FIRST.html (http://www.dancefreak.com/stories/Focus_on_the_Music_FIRST.html))

Musicaility has been mentioned many times on this forum as an important element of good salsa dancing, but what is it exactly? Is it about hitting the breaks and pauses in the song, or is there more to it? Is it something you either have or you don't, or can it be learned through training? How do you develop your musicality? Also, is it equally important for the follower? Is it something beginners should also try to achieve, or is it an advanced skill?

[Sagitta]

So true. The article. You know I actually like closing my eyes and feeling the music for salsa and AT. Briefly, unfortunately, as I am the leader after all! :( As to whether it is an advanced skill...once you know a certain number of simple moves I believe this is the next thing that people should work on. This focus on moves is way overblown, IMO.

[borikensalsero]

wepa... I haven't read the article but I think finally someone has touch upon a much debated subject which I say, knowing the beats of salsa really isn't the first approach to learning, if you will, musicallity! I'll have to go read the article.

[Sagitta]

One reason why Spanish is what I must learn!!

[Danoo]

that article is so true
thanks for posting that

[borikensalsero]

lol... she sounds like she dances in NY City every day! lol...

Salsa has become just that, how many patterns a leader can do! Yet think musicality is knowing 1,2,3 5,6,7... Boy, oh, boy, that article should be required in Salsa 101.

besides the difference in opinion that not everyone has the same views of hitting pauses, and climaxes, hence, the reason not to dip or take off, I totaly agree with her.

[Danoo]

totally agree with u

[Lita_rulez]

Well, there we go !

Something sensible everybody should read. Then again... as so few dancers do play with the music, I kinda feel special doing it, so I'm not so sure I want everyone to start doing it just yet, give me another year or two to get much more solid, technically speaking :wink:

Seriously, musicality is to me at least 50%* of what separates a good dance from a great dance. http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy30.gif


It is that litle something that makes you not just like the dance, the song, and your partner, but actually fall in love with the combination.

And there is more to it than just hitting the breaks and pauses in the song. There is actually everything you could think about or come up with. It goes from hitting the break, plain and simple, to chosing a particular instrument to play with, because you know (or even better, you feel) that it is going to take over one part of the song.
One of the greatest compliment a follow ever paid me was saying "it is not fair, I'm not a great dancer, and you invite me on a song you know by heart down to each break" on a song I was hearing for the first time in my life (well, OK, I probably had heard it somewhere before, but never even bothered to get the title or the name of the band)
This is what musicality is to me : feeling the music, and not only listening to one thing (ie : the clave, or the beat your on, or even the melody) but rather finding out what instrument to listen to at what part of the song.

It is probably something hard to grasp for a beginner, for more than a reason, the main one beeing that it is usually never taught in any class.
Since you are focused on learning the steps, the paterns, the intricate moves, the beat (what ever you find out afterwords in musicality, you still need the beat to dance with your partner, otherwise you might juste dance single dances...) that musicality comes dead last.

But I find that once you are confortable with finding your one (or your two.. or whichever beat you want to dance on) instinctively, and you have a solid basic, CBL, a few turns and paterns at your disposal, it is time to focus on musicality.








*the rest beeing :

- 40% connection to your partner http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy-lrh01.gif

- 10% cleavage http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy-lrh06.gif

[squirrel]

SO TRUE! Edie has really had it! She is a swell dancer and can do all those tricks, but she is interested in something else! And that pointless dicsussion about on1 vs on 2... gosh! I got sooooo bored! I don't even dance on 2, but I wanna learn it, the same way I wanted to learn merengue, bachata and Rueda and the same way I shall take classes of AT ... it's about dancing, feeling good and enjoying the music... interpreting it! I mean, there are different ways you can dance to the same song, depending on the mood, the partner and other things... why don't people see the beauty of dancing and tha richness of music????

[MacMoto]

Seriously, musicality is to me at least 50%* of what separates a good dance from a great dance.



*the rest beeing :

- 40% connection to your partner

- 10% cleavage
So... I will never be able to give you a perfect dance since I haven't got a cleavage? :cry: :cry:
How about tons of eye contact and smile :D instead?

[MacMoto]

Now that we all agree that Edie's great (:lol: and she really is -- I'm a BIG fan), my question is:

How can one acquire/develop musicality? Can it be taught? How? Does anyone here have any experience of "musicality lessons"??

Also -- Edie talks about leaders who ignore what the music says, but how about followers and musicality? Is it less important for the follower, since it's the leader who decides how to interpret the music (or not to interpret it at all as the case may be :lol:)?

[Sagitta]

While a follower may not be able to excute certain moves how he/she moves his/her body is not dictated by the leader. There can be be a great deal of freedom there. It's not what you can't do, it's what you can do. Helps to look at it that way.

[salsachinita]

How can one acquire/develop musicality? Can it be taught? How? Does anyone here have any experience of "musicality lessons"??

Ideally, this very lesson should be taught first, to ALL salsa newbies, same as "colour theory" should be taught to all budding art/design students.

But generally, that's not the way it works out in reality. Why?

Because these are concepts. And lessons on concepts are by far the most difficult to prepare.......you risk either boring the students, or the information may not get properly absorbed, due to the lack of active participation.

However, once learnt, concepts stay with us for life.

...........but how about followers and musicality? Is it less important for the follower, since it's the leader who decides how to interpret the music (or not to interpret it at all as the case may be :lol:)?

IMHO it's just as important for the follower, if not more so. While the leader initiates moves & dictates (personal) styles, it is quite often the follower who keeps the timing (especially true in the case of Cuban style, where it was the guy who shows off while the girl keeps on beat).

I know for a fact that when dancing with a newbie, I cannot show him moves (so he has to know enough basics to begin with), but I can often show him the style/timing/feeling of the song that we are dancing to at the time, providing he is open to me.

I'm still wating for someone to come up with a more effective way to help people develope musicality. Unlike flava/sabor, musicality IS more teachable, if one knows how.

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......

*btw Edie was the reason I ended up here in DF....her articles inspired me & motivated my sharing/learning via the net*

[ThatHaitianSwede]

How can one acquire/develop musicality? Can it be taught? How? Does anyone here have any experience of "musicality lessons"??

Also -- Edie talks about leaders who ignore what the music says, but how about followers and musicality? Is it less important for the follower, since it's the leader who decides how to interpret the music (or not to interpret it at all as the case may be :lol:)?

If the lead and follow are both doing shines, or if your just very close simply doing the basic there could be a lot of room for the follow to interpret the music. I know that in lindy there are times where the girl is said to 'steal the lead' for a beat or two, I dunno but there must be similar times in salsa, just the in the way you step to the basic or in a one hand hold...

anyway I liked the article. i definitely feel that just dancing should be emphasized a lot more. **** if you wanna stop in the middle of the basic and break it down freak style to that crazy brass section of the song. DO IT

Interpreting musicality might have just as much uniqueness as flava... and lessons, hence, a very arbitrary thing.

[salsachinita]

Interpreting musicality might have just as much uniqueness as flava... and lessons, hence, a very arbitrary thing.

Well, the kind of lesson I'm talking about is perhaps an anatomical point of view on salsa music itself. By understanding the structure of it, it will be easier for dancers to 'play' with the music, developing 'light & shade' into their dancing.

Something like what Boriken said on another thread:
the one class that I went to the most actually had a audio version of something like salsarhythms has. They break down first the conga, then the clave, then piano, the cowbell, and lastly every instrument together. The class does not progress until everyone learned the basic rhythms structure. that was the only class I've ever been to where the instructor took the time to explain, the why, when, how of not only the instruments, but the rhythm they played, and were every given step in the dance originated. I was more facintated by all the knowledge than actually learning to dance.

[brujo]

How can one acquire/develop musicality? Can it be taught? How? Does anyone here have any experience of "musicality lessons"??


Yup. I think the common misconception is that if you were 'born with the music', then you don't really need to understand it at an intellectual level. But there are many things that can be taught in musicality that can help people become better dancers.

I took a musicality class here in TO, here are some of the concepts that were taught

-All the different instruments and the way they interact with each other. Ear training to isolate highly reliable instruments ( bongos, cowbell ) vs melody instruments to keep beat. Also the trance-inducing repetition of the instruments. Learning how each of the instruments sound like and being able to identify and dance to individual instruments. Listening and internalizing each instrument and the emotions they can bring.

-The wave-like repetition of the beats. 1-8,1-8,1-8. You miss a beat, you can always wait for the next 'wave'.

-Anticipating changes in the music, understanding the structure, repetitions of a salsa song. (When the chorus comes in, when the one is, when the lead singer is going to start, anticipating breaks, etc).

-Understanding how salsa songs are aranged. What is really meant by 'the music changed'. Really envisioning the 4 and 8 bars and how they interact with each other through visual illustrations and clapping exercises.

-Finding the sense of humor from the musicians, seeing how musicians will grab something that the dancer expects, then switching it up completely to throw them off. ( Such as a cowbell that goes off repeatedly but then suddenly not sounding on a 5 or a 7 ). Or how sometimes a rhythm pattern that is expected from one instrument is played with another instrument.

-Exercises to condition the body to automatically develop rhythm and coordinate timing by listening to the music.

The class itself was perhaps 50% explanations, with actually playing the instruments and trying to imitate the sounds. 25% exercises that involved just basic stepping to music and walking around clapping to different patterns (clave, the 1,3,5,7 of the guiro, etc). 25% was ear training, doing the basic step to many different instruments.

The class helped me as a dancer because now instead of thinking 'on1', 'on2', etc. I could try to dance to the bass ( on3 and on7, depending on which foot you wanted ), or to the clave or to really any instruments. Having that understanding also allowed me to play more with the music, using my feet as percussion to fill gaps in the music. It's amazing how once all that information is revealed, you start hearing more and more.

[SalseraLaura]

i think understanding the music is the most important thing in salsa, i swear id much rather dance with someone who is a total beginner but who can feel the music and do a basic for 5 songs and stay on the beat than dance with someone who has all the moves but cant stay on 1 or on 2 or whatever.

ive been playing music since i was 6 ive been listening to salsa my whole life, i started playing salsa when i was 13 and i started dancing salsa when i was 16 so it was something i never had to think about. ppl would come to me and say how do you know where the beat is all the time? how do you dance like what your doing is made for that song? and how can you anticipate whats coming up next? well the thing is i cant really give them a spiel on music theory.

my uncle is a salsa musician and he teaches a class called latin rhythm for salsa dancers, its a basic once off workshop and i couldnt believe the results i was dancing with ppl thinking holy....when did this guy get good? then after theyre like oh i went to your uncles workshop...can you tell? i was like well i knew something changed. i think its important that salsa dancers go to something like this.

ok...now this is scary!!! :shock: because this has happened more than once and with more than one guy. well be dancing and hes all over the place...not moves wise but music wise, hes not dancing on any discernable beat and im starting to lose the basic turn patterns cos my feet are just locked into the music. hes like whats wrong? am i messing up the turns? is it my lead? is it my timing? im like ....well its just that youre not dancing on 1( which is what he was meant to be dancing on...just cos thats all that these guys know....and i know for a fact he wasnt trying to dance on 2 or any other beat) hes like i dont understand...im counting 123 567 in my head i said yeah but where, hes like it doesnt matter where you start does it? im like yes!! the music has a 1 in it too not just you!!! these guys actually didnt know that the timing of dancing was related to the music...now that in my opinion is just wrong...this should be something thats incorporated into lessons from day 1 as far as im concerned

[MacMoto]

I took a musicality class here in TO



The class itself was perhaps 50% explanations, with actually playing the instruments and trying to imitate the sounds. 25% exercises that involved just basic stepping to music and walking around clapping to different patterns (clave, the 1,3,5,7 of the guiro, etc). 25% was ear training, doing the basic step to many different instruments.
This sounds like a really interesting concept, Brujo. I wonder if this sort of teaching is offered in the UK...

I have experienced only one musicality class, which had quite a different approach. It was billed as an intermediate/advanced level class and was basically all about how to play with the music when you didn't know the song. The teacher says that the musical phrasing of salsa songs is actually quite formulaic, and it is therefore easy to anticipate when a change in the mood of the music occurs (like "every so many bars") even though you don't know what the change will be. All you have to do, therefore, is change your dance exactly at that point. Another tip is to remember the intro of the song because, when it appears again later in the song, it often marks the end of the song so works as a cue for rounding up your move for a big finale.

Since it was a higher level class, the teacher expected the students to be already familiar with salsa music (and be able to count beats/bars!) and left it up to them to put the theories into practice (the class wasn't hands-on -- no exercises, just explanations and a couple of demos). It was more of a "cheat's guide to musicality" than a salsa music fundamentals class, but I suppose the ideas explained there were still useful. I think you would need a very different approach to teach musicality to less advanced students though -- like that described by Brujo (and also Boriken).

[MacMoto]

hes like i dont understand...im counting 123 567 in my head i said yeah but where, hes like it doesnt matter where you start does it? im like yes!! the music has a 1 in it too not just you!!! these guys actually didnt know that the timing of dancing was related to the music...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll:
Seriously though, you are absolutely right. It really does throw me when the leader is dancing on the wrong beat.

When Angel Ortiz came to Scotland to teach a couple of workshops (not an everyday occurrence, you understand), I was a bit scared wondering what dazzlingly difficult turn patterns he was going to teach us. But, no, the first session of his class was "where's the 1?" (it was an on1 class). He played a song and told us to start the basic step when the 1 beat came. His point was that knowing where the 1 was and dancing on that beat of music was the most important thing in salsa dancing. Sounds ridiculously basic, yet when you look at the dancefloor, you see many people starting on (or slipping to) the wrong beat all the time. Musicality is certainly not only about being and staying on the beat, but it is an important starting point.

[squirrel]

I could use some of those classes... :( I cannot hear the 2 even if my life depended on it! And the clave... it is obvious when it plays, but I cannot keep it the entire song!

[huey]

Hi,

Excellent article and thread. I dance Lindy Hop rather than Salsa, but I found this thread at the top of the page, and like the article, which I find highly relevant to the Lindy dancing that I do.

I liked the section of Edie's article about cars -

Many of the advanced guys treat me like a brand new Ferrari. Imagine getting a new sports car. The temptation is to put it through all it’s paces and see how fast you can make it go and what you can get away with.

Well, sometimes I have described dancing with a light, experienced Lindy Hop follower as 'like driving a car with power steering'. I suppose I mean that I can really tell the difference in the way that you can with cars.

But reading this article made me think about this. If I do get a follower with advanced 'power steering' then I could take advantage of this connection to lead us both in a dance, rather than 'power dance' the follower.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

boy, that article should be required in Salsa 101.


It never ceases to amaze me why salsa wasn´t taught in my high school homeroom class. :shock: I mean if they want to prepare you for life, what better way then thru salsa. Helllooooooo.... :wink:

[borikensalsero]

boy, that article should be required in Salsa 101.


It never ceases to amaze me why salsa wasn´t taught in my high school homeroom class. :shock: I mean if they want to prepare you for life, what better way then thru salsa. Helllooooooo.... :wink:


you have spoken like a true salsero!!! I just don't know what up with society, we need more salsa. :D

[capricorndancer]

Seriously, musicality is to me at least 50%* of what separates a good dance from a great dance. http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy30.gif

*the rest beeing :

- 40% connection to your partner http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy-lrh01.gif

- 10% cleavage http://membres.lycos.fr/owk/FORUM/MINI-ICONES/TEX_AVERY/wolfy-lrh06.gif

Thanks SO much for that, Lita. :-)

I was in Paris for the congress. Too bad I read your posting too late to arrange a meet - could have been fun; you sound like a hard core addict. But, maybe we met anyway.

CD

[capricorndancer]

Hi,

Excellent article and thread. I dance Lindy Hop rather than Salsa, but I found this thread at the top of the page, and like the article, which I find highly relevant to the Lindy dancing that I do.

I liked the section of Edie's article about cars -

Many of the advanced guys treat me like a brand new Ferrari. Imagine getting a new sports car. The temptation is to put it through all it’s paces and see how fast you can make it go and what you can get away with.

Well, sometimes I have described dancing with a light, experienced Lindy Hop follower as 'like driving a car with power steering'. I suppose I mean that I can really tell the difference in the way that you can with cars.

But reading this article made me think about this. If I do get a follower with advanced 'power steering' then I could take advantage of this connection to lead us both in a dance, rather than 'power dance' the follower.

I know that temptation. One other thing I have found, though, is when one moves between Salsa scenes, finds someone with said power responses, it can be downright scarey to find that the lead strengths one is accustomed to using are far too strong, and the lady is almost a blur in front of your eyes . . . It took me some time to learn to lead with one finger, so to speak (now, don't y'all be lookin' at me that way! ;-))

While I was in Melbourne recently, I tried to repay in some measure the wonderful people of that city by giving a 'Leaders and Followers' class, trying to distill my 13-odd years of dance experience into an hour, to help them improve their respective roles. One thing I have realised is that there is no 'right' strength of lead; when I dance with different people, I use different amounts of force, depending on the responsiveness of follower to my leads. Similarly, I try to do different moves, depending on the ability of the follower to turn, spin, promenade, stretch, etc.

All that being said, I think it will be long, long time yet before I am game to dance with Edie . . . and only when I can go and lie down afterwards. She and Al are awe-inspiring :-)

CD

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......


Yes, the follow can transmit musicality to the lead. Most girls don´t realise that though. :roll:

In my opinion musicality is a concept to difficult and abstract to teach in class. It has to be felt and in order to feel it you have to be physically connected to someone who understands it. The best way is to wait for a slow song and explain as you go along. A couple songs later it should sink in, unless of course you´re a lost case... :wink:

[borikensalsero]

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......


Yes, the follow can transmit musicality to the lead. Most girls don´t realise that though. :roll:

In my opinion musicality is a concept to difficult and abstract to teach in class. It has to be felt and in order to feel it you have to be physically connected to someone who understands it. The best way is to wait for a slow song and explain as you go along. A couple songs later it should sink in, unless of course you´re a lost case... :wink:

Wow Mr. MapleLeaf, that is just one sweet way of explaining it. I never thought of doing that! Sweet!!! I

[Pacion]

What can I do if I am at home, twirling around with my mop :| :lol:

[Genesius Redux]

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......


Yes, the follow can transmit musicality to the lead. Most girls don´t realise that though. :roll:

In my opinion musicality is a concept to difficult and abstract to teach in class. It has to be felt and in order to feel it you have to be physically connected to someone who understands it. The best way is to wait for a slow song and explain as you go along. A couple songs later it should sink in, unless of course you´re a lost case... :wink:

A couple of songs????

Believe me, when you're working with non-musicians--by which I mean people who have had no experience whatsoever making music in their lives--you need a bit more than a couple of songs. I think if you expect musicality to emerge naturally after just a couple of songs, it's no wonder you don't believe it can be taught.

Not only can it be taught, it must be taught. Believe it or not, there is nothing inevitable about Western music--it's not ingrained in a priori fashion inside our heads. If you don't believe me, listen to some Tibetan or Arabic music sometime, and see how natural it sounds. All music and rhythm is learned--for some people it's been part of their lives for so long that it appears natural and spontaneous.

I've been a musician for well over 30 years, so I don't have any problem finding the 1, the 2, or the upbeat of the 3 if I need to (you play a lot of big band jazz or bebop, you need to). But finding the beat is more like pre-school musicality--shaping your body to the music is another thing and much more advanced. For adults who don't have musical background lucky there are folks like salseralaura's uncle out there to help teach the supposedly unteachable!

[Vince A]

I didn't get a chance to read all the responses, nor the article, but would like to attempt to answer the question. Forgive me if I repeat . . .

What you want to do is to make your body motions/movements while dancing, respond to and naturally fit the music . . . in other words, listening to the music, getting a feel for the music and then put your body in motion to make the movements look natural.

There are pulses and nuances in every part of the music that you could move parts of your body to . . . head, shoulders, arms, hands, hips, butt, knees - not just your feet! Listen to a song . . . really listen to it . . . initially count out the measures . . . learn where the breaks are . . . learn where a cymbal consistently 'hits' on . . . where the downbeat is . . . where the upbeat is . . . where the singer says "Kiss me Baby" - what could you do here?

Stop going through the motions of dancing and start acting out the song. Try doing some of your favorite dances w/o doing any patterns . . . just send the follower out and back and do something with yourself while doing this . . . the follower should see you doing this and return the movement or do something of their own. DO your basics with your whole body!

[Pacion]

where the singer says "Kiss me Baby" - what could you do here?

:roll: :roll: Let's see now :roll: :roll: let me think :roll: :roll: it is on the tip of my tongue :roll: :roll: nope, that wouldn't work :roll: :roll: I am thinking :roll: :roll: I am thinking :roll: :roll: It is coming to me :roll: :roll: I know :idea: :banana:

This? :ladiesma:



:lol:


Seriously, I agree re the listening thing especially if it is a new song. Okay, you miss the first pause but, you listen out for it second time around and if you miss it there, because you hopefully remember a particular rhythm or instrument just before the pause, you are listening out for it and the BHAM! It all comes together :D

[MacMoto]

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......


Yes, the follow can transmit musicality to the lead. Most girls don´t realise that though. :roll:
I so wanted to hear this, MLS. Thank you! :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

In my opinion musicality is a concept to difficult and abstract to teach in class. It has to be felt and in order to feel it you have to be physically connected to someone who understands it. The best way is to wait for a slow song and explain as you go along. A couple songs later it should sink in, unless of course you´re a lost case... :wink:

A couple of songs????

Believe me, when you're working with non-musicians--by which I mean people who have had no experience whatsoever making music in their lives--you need a bit more than a couple of songs. I think if you expect musicality to emerge naturally after just a couple of songs, it's no wonder you don't believe it can be taught.

Hi GR, long time no see.

GR, I have absolutely no music or dance background. I had never danced before in my life before enrolling in a salsa studio a couple of years ago (unless you consider dancing with your aunts at weddings dance background). In high school, I only listened to heavy metal and hard rock (and occasionally some POP). To me that doesn’t constitute musical background.

When I started having salsa classes, I didn’t understand the rhythm. It took me an entire 6 months to find the beat :oops: :oops: (please don’t tell anyone this). I was the last guy in my class to do this. To some, the rhythm felt natural, while others picked it up a month or two later. The girls I danced with were always complaining about that. Anyway, after finding the beat I progressed really fast. I then concentrated on the patterns and leading them well. After accomplishing this, I felt I was a good dancer. Girls stopped complaining, I received some smiles and rarely got turned down.

One fine day, I found myself dancing a slow salsa with this girl I had never seen before in my life. I was completely blown away! She was dancing as if the music was coming from inside her. It was as if she was in another world. Even though I was leading, it felt like the music was leading her and she was leading me. I could feel her musicality flowing into me. After a while, I instinctively switched to “passive mode” and tried to absorb as much of this sensation as possible. She then smiled and turned away. I was in a state of shock! I didn’t realize you could dance that way to music. I finally realized why some people enjoyed dancing so much! It wasn’t just a set of moves and keeping to the beat, which was what I had been doing. It was much more. After that I knew I just had to dance that way.

I could endlessly explain to you how a roller coaster ride feels like, but only if I take you with me and show you, will you completely understand. One thing is theory; another is being there, feeling it… This is what that girl did, she showed me. I was connected to her and felt it through her. I never saw her again but I feel privileged for that one dance we had. It changed me and the way I look at dancing.

Now I agree with you, one or several songs cannot give you musicality, but it can introduce you to it. It enables you to grasp the concept and from then on, it’s up to you.

[DWise1]

Personally, I learnt mine by feeling (quality) leads over time. I'm currently passing on what I know by getting people to feel my following. I'm still not sure if this is the way :oops: .......


Yes, the follow can transmit musicality to the lead. Most girls don´t realise that though. :roll:

In my opinion musicality is a concept to difficult and abstract to teach in class. It has to be felt and in order to feel it you have to be physically connected to someone who understands it. The best way is to wait for a slow song and explain as you go along. A couple songs later it should sink in, unless of course you´re a lost case... :wink:

A couple of songs????

Believe me, when you're working with non-musicians--by which I mean people who have had no experience whatsoever making music in their lives--you need a bit more than a couple of songs. I think if you expect musicality to emerge naturally after just a couple of songs, it's no wonder you don't believe it can be taught.

Not only can it be taught, it must be taught. Believe it or not, there is nothing inevitable about Western music--it's not ingrained in a priori fashion inside our heads. If you don't believe me, listen to some Tibetan or Arabic music sometime, and see how natural it sounds. All music and rhythm is learned--for some people it's been part of their lives for so long that it appears natural and spontaneous.

I've been a musician for well over 30 years, so I don't have any problem finding the 1, the 2, or the upbeat of the 3 if I need to (you play a lot of big band jazz or bebop, you need to). But finding the beat is more like pre-school musicality--shaping your body to the music is another thing and much more advanced. For adults who don't have musical background lucky there are folks like salseralaura's uncle out there to help teach the supposedly unteachable!
And with that response to "a couple of songs", you just touched on what had been my biggest problem for literally decades that had kept me from learning to dance and had branded me totally incapable of ever learning to dance.

Oh sure, lots of dancers tried to teach me (starting when I was 19 and giving me up for hopeless by the time I was 25), including my wife (before we were married), and all of them failed miserably. Each and every one of them automatically assumed that musically is something that comes naturally; after all, it came naturally for them. They kept telling me to "just feel the music", "just do what the music tells you". Well, I sure couldn't feel anything and the music refused to speak to me at all -- in fact I think it was getting a restraining order against me. Despite all their good intentions, all they ever succeeded in doing was to convince me more and more that learning to dance was an absolute impossibility for me so why even try. And my wife is still convinced of it.

I am now convinced that, while some people may be neurally wired for it to come to them more easily -- or less easily -- than to others, musicality and the ability to "hear and feel the music" is something that must be learned and developed. I think that for most people to whom it came "naturally", that came from growing up in an environment where they got plenty of exposure to music and given the opportunity/encouragement to interact with it and to play with it. In my case, we had very little music at home; we got our first record player (an old electric turntable with a hollow arm and a resonating cavity for an amplifier plus a stack of old 78's) when I was about 12 and our first and only stereo a couple years later.

The only thing that finally got me started again was that at age 48 (c. 2000) I strongly felt the need for something that my wife and I could do together -- plus I had just spent a truly horrible evening at a Christmas party where everybody else was dancing, leaving me to sit all alone at our table. I overheard her telling a friend that she had "always" wanted to learn Salsa, so I mentioned some Salsa classes being held after work and suggested we try it. Because of her work (teacher) she had to wait another month for summer vacation, so I started immediately knowing that while it would come to her naturally I would need to really work at it. Yes, I was lost, but I used the teacher's counting to stay in step. Of course, part of my being lost was due to the fact that these were intemediate-level lessons, but I didn't know it at the time. What really helped me through that was my Aikido training from two decades prior, which gave me some sense of body and a really strong lead that all the girls complimented me on from the very first day (I just figured they were buttering me up to keep the attendence figures up).

A few months later those classes ended, so we did a few months of beginning Salsa and beginning ECS through the city, but that fizzled as we couldn't find anywhere local for intermediate classes. Within the year, we finally found a place and, after trying out a few different ballroom and C&W dances, settled on West Coast Swing (my wife had always wanted to learn swing) for about 8 months. Then my wife dropped out and I followed suit a couple months later, foolishly thinking that I would have nobody to dance with (ironically, even though my purpose in all this was to be able to dance with my wife, she has never again allowed me to dance with her, so I must get all my dances with other women). Then a few months later I found a Lindy class (motivated by my wife having said she had always wanted to learn Jitterbug) and a few months thereafter I started going to it alone (because my wife refused to), which is where I've been for a bit more than 1.5 years. And I'm back in WCS and Nightclub 2 Step and Country 2 Step since the start of the year and back in Salsa since a couple months.

The point I'm getting to is that it wasn't until the end of the beginning ECS classes that I was starting -- just starting -- to sense the presence of the beat; that's six months of dance lessons -- I never was able to figure out the Salsa music (more irony to come on that one). And it wasn't until about 4 or 5 months into WCS that I had finally developed enough musicality to be able to reliably hear and follow the beat in the music -- that's one and a half years since my first dance lesson. And it wasn't until more than one year into Lindy -- nearly three years since that first lesson -- that I started to sense strongly enough the start of the phrase and where the 1 is.

Now that I have returned to dances that I had tried in the beginning but couldn't quite get (OK, WCS I could kind of get), it was like I had never been gone and just picked them right up again. 1.5 years away from WCS and right off I was doing whips with no problem at all (and swingouts still give me a problem). Three years away from NC2S and C2S and I just stepped in and it just all fell right into place. Even Salsa, after a four-year absense, came right back to me such that the teacher, who insists on at least one month of beginning classes before you step up to intermediate, made a point of inviting me to step up on the very first night.

Now for the irony: From that first night back in Salsa, I'm following the music. And I have no idea what it is that I am following. I just feel it and I follow what I'm feeling. Yeah, it's freaking me out too. And it only took four years of dance lessons to get to that point.

At present in my WCS and NC2S classes, a number of the women have told me that I'm a natural dancer. But they don't realize how much work and effort and training it has taken to become "a natural". And FWIW, I certainly don't view myself as a "natural", but rather as a somewhat low intermediate.

And the final irony: Despite my present partners' expressed opinions of my dancing abilities, my wife is still convinced that I cannot dance.

---

But I actually wanted to comment on Edie's article on musicality -- that's OK, because what I just related has a direct bearing on it.

I disagree with her major points, but agree with a number of her minor points. First, I think that her musicality has "come to her naturally" (see discussion above) so she doesn't understand that it's something that most of the guys need time, training, and experience to learn, so her judgement is too rash and harsh. I do agree that once the lead has advanced to the point where he should have developed musicality that he should apply that musicality to dance to the song and so to make the dance more enjoyable for his partner.

I also agree with her that dancing is about spending that time in a three-minute relationship with a member of the complementary gender for the mutual enjoyment of the dance by both parties and not for you to show off and boost your ego -- personally, my enjoyment of any activity with a woman -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean? -- depends almost directly on whether she's getting any enjoyment out of that activity herself; ie, if she's not enjoying it, I can't enjoy it. If the guy just wants to do his own dance thing all by himself without any thought of his partner, then he could more easily just do it all by his lonesome at home. The object of a partner dance is to dance with her, so don't go forgetting your partner.

So, while Edie raises some good points in her article, I think that in her main thesis she forgets that most of us are not up to the point where we can apply what little musicality we've developed so far. We're simply not there yet, but we are working on it. So, ladies, please be patient with us; we are trying.

But it's going to take a lot more than just a couple of songs for us to get there.

--------------------------------------
If I can learn to dance, then anybody should be able to learn.

[capricorndancer]

Hey DWise,
Great post, and well done on your efforts: sticking with dance in spite of a lack of support from your N&D. It probably helps her to think that you really can't dance; all those ladies wanting you. (nudge nudge; Eric is a friend of mine, too).
I'm lucky in that I developed my musicality well before I started dance, just from listening to music a lot. I've often wondered what the basis of it is, but I remember seeing brain MRI scans years ago, comparing a musician's cortex with that of a non-musician, and difference in the amount of activity was phenomenal. This is probably both genetic and learned, so I'm glad that you have been able ot learn it.

Regarding Edie's article:

. . . I disagree with her major points, but agree with a number of her minor points. First, I think that her musicality has "come to her naturally" (see discussion above) so she doesn't understand that it's something that most of the guys need time, training, and experience to learn, so her judgement is too rash and harsh.

If you want to pursue it, she has (or had) a description of her start with Salsa, where she protrays herself as a clumsy, over-weight young girl, who was blown away by seeing Jonny Vasquez (I think), dance at a quiet club one time. From memory, she made no comment on her developing a sense of musicality: she placed more emphasis on the physical changes it wrought, so perhaps you are right. Maybe she should be allowed to comment, though . . .

I guess many people start with some hurdle to overcome, but often have some other advantage - you have a strong lead, which is good at first, but something I have learned to tone down as my partners improved - and the thing they found hardest to manage is the thing on which they focus. Hence Edie's lack of patience with a lack of musicality in people. Ironic, in the wider sense; many people who are 'naturals' at something can't teach it to save their lives to a 'non-natural', as they never had to break it down into its components.

I feel an attack of deep philosophy coming on, so I'll go lie down now. ;-)

CD

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Hello Dwise,

I´m glad to know I wasn´t the only one having major problems in the beginning. :wink:

My biggest obstacle was finding the beat. After that it was smooth sailing (well not really but the hurdles were much smaller).

After, when I was fairly proficient with the basics and technique, I had the good fortune of dancing with someone who had an enormous sense of musicality. It just irradiated from her body and I fed off her energy. 8) This was an awakening for me... I passed onto a new frontier. I learnt what dancing was really about.

I can´t understand how this can be taught through theory. I have developed a sense of musicality (at least for slow songs), but I still can´t decompose a salsa into its basic instruments. I´m not sure I really care or want to. To me I hear the "whole package" and just flow... I just dance what I feel.

Thanks for sharing your story DWise!

[borikensalsero]

mapleleaf, dwise, capricon, those were fantastic posts... They got me teary eye, smiling, and glad that you took your time to share it!!! Thank you.

[Genesius Redux]

Thanks for your stories, Maple Leaf and DWise!

As regards my feelings about musicality taking a really long time, the person I have in mind--and I would never even hint at this if I didn't know for a fact he's not reading DF--is a really good friend, who has been dancing for three years, and God help him, he just can't count.

I mean, can't count. Can't hear a basic beat. If he doesn't have a private teacher crawling all over his sorry behind, he cannot count. And he loves to dance, and he's generally a very strong lead.

Even people who haven't been in band or chorus may have experience singing along with various artists in the car or the radio. Just every now and then you come upon a non-musical person, someone who hasn't had any music in his/her life, or who hasn't listened to it.

One thing that nobody has mentioned so far, however, is that there is a great deal of difference between hearing the beat and moving to it. Musicians are notoriously bad dancers--and especially those of us who play brass instruments and who work against playing music with our whole bodies (for reasons of embouchure, breath, range, technique). If you watch most brass players, and quite a few reed players, improvising on a very tricky tune, you will see that they are absolutely still. So you just try to take that sort of rhythmic consciousness and give it expression on the floor--often it ain't happening!

[SalseraLaura]

One thing that nobody has mentioned so far, however, is that there is a great deal of difference between hearing the beat and moving to it. Musicians are notoriously bad dancers--and especially those of us who play brass instruments and who work against playing music with our whole bodies (for reasons of embouchure, breath, range, technique). If you watch most brass players, and quite a few reed players, improvising on a very tricky tune, you will see that they are absolutely still. So you just try to take that sort of rhythmic consciousness and give it expression on the floor--often it ain't happening!

woah tell me about it :lol: my dad is a musician and the only time he has danced in his life, no word of a lie, is when he stumbled through his first dance at his wedding reception, it was literally his first and last dance. my dad is a jazz musician and his teaching specialises in highly complex rhythmic ideas, he has no problem playing salsa or brazillian music, but dance to it......no way!!!! in my uncles salsa big band the only people who can dance are the singers from cuba and himself, although he can only dance salsa alone not with a partner.

i never had a problem feeling the music or the beat (i played name that instrument and name that time signature since i was about 3 or 4 with my dad) but i could never dance. im from ireland so irish dancing was compulsary in school, but i used to be put in the corner to do whatever the hell i was trying to do alone...lol i was so bad. i remember when i was about 8 or 9 my grandma said to me "laura its such a pity, you can sing, act and play piano but you really cant dance at all and you never will be able to" i believed her until i went to my first salsa class at the age of 16. i was so bad the first class, but i had been listening to salsa my whole life and playing it for 3 years so it made it easy for me. once i learned to dance salsa it was like a gateway into other dance for me, i went back to irish dancing for a salsa show for st patricks weekend and found i could do it no problem...now i do a few different types of dance. :D

[ThatHaitianSwede]

now that I think about it the musicians I know are pretty bad at dancing.

now i do a few different types of dance. :D

8) everything can be learned...

[Vince A]

This was some real nice reading . . . thanks to all who contributed!

[DWise1]

One thing that nobody has mentioned so far, however, is that there is a great deal of difference between hearing the beat and moving to it. Musicians are notoriously bad dancers--and especially those of us who play brass instruments and who work against playing music with our whole bodies (for reasons of embouchure, breath, range, technique). If you watch most brass players, and quite a few reed players, improvising on a very tricky tune, you will see that they are absolutely still. So you just try to take that sort of rhythmic consciousness and give it expression on the floor--often it ain't happening!

woah tell me about it :lol: my dad is a musician and the only time he has danced in his life, no word of a lie, is when he stumbled through his first dance at his wedding reception, it was literally his first and last dance. my dad is a jazz musician and his teaching specialises in highly complex rhythmic ideas, he has no problem playing salsa or brazillian music, but dance to it......no way!!!! in my uncles salsa big band the only people who can dance are the singers from cuba and himself, although he can only dance salsa alone not with a partner.

i never had a problem feeling the music or the beat (i played name that instrument and name that time signature since i was about 3 or 4 with my dad) but i could never dance. im from ireland so irish dancing was compulsary in school, but i used to be put in the corner to do whatever the hell i was trying to do alone...lol i was so bad. i remember when i was about 8 or 9 my grandma said to me "laura its such a pity, you can sing, act and play piano but you really cant dance at all and you never will be able to" i believed her until i went to my first salsa class at the age of 16. i was so bad the first class, but i had been listening to salsa my whole life and playing it for 3 years so it made it easy for me. once i learned to dance salsa it was like a gateway into other dance for me, i went back to irish dancing for a salsa show for st patricks weekend and found i could do it no problem...now i do a few different types of dance. :D
It seems that it takes "getting" that first dance to acquire the basic motor skills or whatever it is and then the other dances seem to fall right in place. After Salsa, ECS, Country 2 Step, Night Club 2 Step, and sundry other ballroom and country dances, it took WCS before I finally "got it". I went on to Lindy from there (which includes ECS), so it wasn't until I went back to Country 2 Step and Night Club 2 Step that I found that I just picked them back up right away and was immediately dancing them better than ever before despite a three-year absense. And the same thing happened with the Salsa despite a four-year absense.

I responded to your post mainly because of the Irish connection -- I'm Irish from my father's side (not counting one German 4 generations back who gave us the family name) and Scottish from my mother. In the Latin dance classes where "Spanish hips" were mentioned (Salsa & Rumba), I'd joke with my partner that mine are Irish and they don't know any Spanish yet, or even worse that one is Irish and the other Scottish and they can't seem to agree on anything. But now that I'm back in Salsa, that's one of the things I'm working on, though I haven't been brave enough yet to try it in front of a mirror.

There was also an incident in an early Salsa class. During the warm-up at the start of class, I was concentrating so much on the footwork and the turns that I was just letting my arms hang straight down (another teacher calls such arms "deadwood"). Finally, the teacher got very upset with me and told us all to hold our arms up (elbows pointing down, forearms parallel to the floor) whether or not we knew what to do with them now, because we will know later. Well, he certainly taught me well with that; ever since then I've always been mindful of my arms. When I refer to that incident, I say that he didn't care at all for my "Irish Salsa".

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

There was also an incident in an early Salsa class. During the warm-up at the start of class, I was concentrating so much on the footwork and the turns that I was just letting my arms hang straight down (another teacher calls such arms "deadwood"). Finally, the teacher got very upset with me and told us all to hold our arms up (elbows pointing down, forearms parallel to the floor) whether or not we knew what to do with them now, because we will know later. Well, he certainly taught me well with that; ever since then I've always been mindful of my arms. When I refer to that incident, I say that he didn't care at all for my "Irish Salsa".

DWise, I would have to agree with your instructor, arm placement is important. I had this guy in my class who did the exact same thing. It looked like his arms were "dead" and disconnected from his body. The instructor corrected him several times because of this, the problem was that in the next class, he would get back to his old bad habit...

[DWise1]

There was also an incident in an early Salsa class. During the warm-up at the start of class, I was concentrating so much on the footwork and the turns that I was just letting my arms hang straight down (another teacher calls such arms "deadwood"). Finally, the teacher got very upset with me and told us all to hold our arms up (elbows pointing down, forearms parallel to the floor) whether or not we knew what to do with them now, because we will know later. Well, he certainly taught me well with that; ever since then I've always been mindful of my arms. When I refer to that incident, I say that he didn't care at all for my "Irish Salsa".

DWise, I would have to agree with your instructor, arm placement is important. I had this guy in my class who did the exact same thing. It looked like his arms were "dead" and disconnected from his body. The instructor corrected him several times because of this, the problem was that in the next class, he would get back to his old bad habit...
Oh, I agree completely. Nor is it restricted to Salsa. Almost every other teacher I've had in all dances where there's an arm free (Irish dancing not included, which I haven't had yet anyway) has had to tell students to correct their "deadwood" arms. In WCS more importance seems to be placed on the women's left arm. In Lindy, the guys are taught right-arm placement as a matter of style, so that they can look like Lindy hoppers. Hustle and NC2S also place great importance on the arms as part of styling.

It seems that most neophytes and non-dancers think of dancing mainly in terms of doing the steps. But there so many different aspects involving the whole body -- and the mind and spirit too, I believe -- that also need to be learned.

[SalseraLaura]

LOL the only dancing that im aware of where it is compulsory to have "deadwood arms" is traditional irish dancing.

growing up in a catholic environment like ireland, being sexy is discouraged. when i was about 12 i was trying to copy the dancing from mtv in my living room, when my dad came in and saw me moving my hips i was banned from watching mtv!! lol there is also a stigma attached to dancing in ireland, its only acceptable if youre drunk, and if youre a guy and you can dance you have to be gay.....lol hopefully one day the attitude in ireland will change towards dancing.

[DWise1]

lol there is also a stigma attached to dancing in ireland, its only acceptable if youre drunk, and if youre a guy and you can dance you have to be gay.....lol hopefully one day the attitude in ireland will change towards dancing.
This past year I heard a radio interview with Michael Caine. He said that when he started acting, he had to get married and have a kid way too young in order to prove to his father that he wasn't gay.

On this forum we've been hearing the voicing of that same attitude among the US macho crowd. That might be part of the explanation for the thread wondering why so many middle-aged men get into dancing (or rather wait until middle age to start): we finally reach a point in our lives when we get fed up with that macho idiocy.

Though that still doesn't explain me.

[Sabor]

being one with the music in itsself has to be the biggest rush.. its not just a rythm u count and move on.. no.. its the whole u.. your being becomes one with the music.. u are music.. thats when u dance true.. the senses can never be sharper.. the hum of electric currents going through your every fiber.. in all directions at the same time.. euphoria.. heightened conciousness.. as if you are moving in slow motion .. caught in your favorite dream.. hollow yet full to the brim.. weightless.. it tickles.. everywhere .. it tickles!.. u actually feel your soul come out to the surface of your skin and cover it.. its so beautiful.. so beautiful .. oh Lord in high heaven .. thank u.. thank u.. thank u till forever.

[MacMoto]

being one with the music in itsself has to be the biggest rush.. its not just a rythm u count and move on.. no.. its the whole u.. your being becomes one with the music.. u are music.. thats when u dance true..
Yup, this is what dancing is all about!

[Istel]

Hiya people, am new to this forum... just in case anyone asked, I dropped by here from a link at SalsaMafia and after reading quite a number of threads, I've decided that this will be a good place to hang out for a while :D (since the peepz at SalsaMafia's forum seem to unleash their flametorch at unwary salsa noobs pretty often :lol: )

I've been dancing salsa for eh... close to half a year? I salsa to the 1 but will be taking up 2 when the availability of such lessons reaches my shores. Although I've taken close to more than 30 group salsa lessons and dancing on the average of 6-8 hrs of salsa a week and practising my basics on my own around 1-2 hrs a night. I still think that I pretty much suck at it :( I wonder if it's possible to train up your lead on your own, without a partner?

Also, the peepz dancing around my area know lotsa moves but problem is they look pretty dead while doing it... They just kept doing moves after moves without interpreting the music (I'm guilty of the same charge as well :oops: ) The only few that really dance to the music and do it exceptionally well are well... instructors and eh some salsa performance team members...

So I wonder if anyone can shed some insights on how to improve one's music interpretation, as well as ways to improve the guys' styling(if there's such a thing :? ) would really appreciate it!

Thanks in advance :D

[Tasek]

Welcome to DF Istel, hope you like it here.


... I wonder if it's possible to train up your lead on your own, without a partner? ...

Not really, you can go through the motions, but without the force feedback of an actual human being opposite you it's just not the same.


So I wonder if anyone can shed some insights on how to improve one's music interpretation, as well as ways to improve the guys' styling(if there's such a thing :? ) would really appreciate it!

Thanks in advance :D
Listen to the music 24/7, look at other dancers you admire, practice, practice, practice, try to get input from as many different dancers/teachers as possible and never lose the attitude that it's all about the music (and your partner ofcourse, never forget your partner). And then in time it will come to you.

[MacMoto]

Welcome to DF, Istel :D. Good to see another salsero on board.

I wonder if it's possible to train up your lead on your own, without a partner?
I believe many leaders practise moves on their own, either using props or with "an invisible follower" :wink:. I think it's easier for the leader to practise with an invisible follower (who never backleads!) than the follower to practise with an invisible leader (who's lead is non-existent :lol:), but there's no substitute for dancing with real people, really. Always ask women to dance after group classes, and also don't be shy about asking people to dance at clubs. There may well be female regulars in your class who are looking for a practice partner -- it's worth asking around.

So I wonder if anyone can shed some insights on how to improve one's music interpretation,
Listen to lots of salsa music. If you don't have a salsa music collection at home, start building one. When you hear a song you like at a class or club, as the teacher/DJ what it is and where you can get it.
Listen to salsa music in two ways: first, really listen. Focus on the music and how it makes you feel -- what emotions it brings out from you. Be aware of the beat and the dynamics of the rhythm, and note every pauses, hits, build-ups... Imagine you are part of the music. You are the music.

Now, in the second stage, start thinking about how you would express this music through dancing. Start slow with closed hold basic... more movements as the music builds up... cuddles and haircombs to match the romance of the melody... something sharp and showy like a copa-turn pattern to accentuate the breaks... some shines, body movements and styling for the funky descarga... that sort of thing. Not really choreographing but having a general feel of how you would like to interpret different moods of salsa music. Also, practise to music. Let the music tell you what move to do.

When you go out dancing, relax and listen to the music as you start dancing. Look at your partner with a smile and see how she responds to the music and to your lead. Always, always dance with her -- that's what partner dancing is all about. Are you getting positive vibes from her? Now it's time to play -- let yourself go!

[Sabor]

.. and remember.. it comes from inside Istel.. let it rise out.. leaving all intimidations and worries behind.. Musicality requires sense Purity

this may seem unclear to u now.. but in time it'll make sense

[peachexploration]

Hi Istel, Welcome to the DF Family! :D

[borikensalsero]

Welcome Istel...

I'm going to take a different approach hoping to convey the massage of musicality and your display of emotions within it.

Be aware of yourself, be aware of what you like, how you walk, how you run, how your feet move, how your arms move, how your body moves, and how your heart beats...

Then put yourself in this situation:
If I were making love to a woman to this one song, what would I Do? What emotions would I hope to pass to hear, and generate from her? How would I hold her? For how long? When will I be "rougher"? When will I be smoother? When will I be sensual? When would I be playful? When will I allow her to take over, lead me, sooth me? I stress lovemaking over sex for sex to males is usually a selfish display of desires. While lovemaking is the union of two people as one, that Istel, is what you must strive for. To become so one with your partner as per the music that there will be a seemingly disappearance of the dancers into one.

Chances are that if you have been in love, you have made love to a woman causing you to been overtaken by emotions that were “dictated” by the setting/events/person, at the moment.

The key to salsa is when to know how to be physically together with a woman, know the how and when of leading a woman through a world of ecstasy based on the music. When I say how and when I don't mean to patterns and moves, but touch/feel, emotions, the Istel that only a loved one has gotten to know. Remember that everyone can do moves, but what can you do that will be unique? Feelings baby! Feelings!!! Know when the music calls for lovemaking’s sister and react accordingly, if you pay attention to yourself while you go about your everyday life chances are that your body will react to sounds, people, events in a certain way, those same feelings and reactions are what you will look to accentuate in your dancing. The music will put you in places where you are familiar with, “knowingly or unknowingly”, use them to your advantage. If you see that you tend to lose control of your feelings while dancing and want to completely fly away with patterns, DON’T. Stop yourself and focus on her, let her be your desires in the dance rather than moves being the goal in the dance. Focus all your passion or feelings at the moment on her!

When your feelings touch the other person you will create an union that will undoubtedly cause your mistakes to be her mistakes, hence creating the perfection never seen in a mistake, for both of you have committed the same.

Once you get in touch with your inner most emotions you will not need to learn, nor worry about styling for your own body will react like it only can. You will become Istel in the dance, not a make up of styles from other people, but rather Istel inner dancing busting out in salsa. If you care to further expand what Istel is then by all means seek what others do and take what you like and make it part of you. However, don’t make Istel into them, but rather a particular move from a person Istel.

Always keep in mind that it isn’t what you do, but how you do what you do. Take the lady for a stroll in the clouds while being embraced by passion and she will forever be gracious of the opportunity to share a part of heaven while in the arms of Istel.

It is about love dear Istel, if the focus is ever shifted from there, you have lost the very essence that salsa is. Listen to yourself, pay attention to yourself, let your inner most feelings control your dancing and you will have not a worry about musicality, for what you will be doing is very much the union of a body to the music: MUSICALITY.

[Sabor]

Welcome Istel...

I'm going to take a different approach hoping to convey the massage of musicality and your display of emotions within it.

Be aware of yourself, be aware of what you like, how you walk, how you run, how your feet move, how your arms move, how your body moves, and how your heart beats...

Then put yourself in this situation:
If I were making love to a woman to this one song, what would I Do? What emotions would I hope to pass to hear, and generate from her? How would I hold her? For how long? When will I be "rougher"? When will I be smoother? When will I be sensual? When would I be playful? When will I allow her to take over, lead me, sooth me? I stress lovemaking over sex for sex to males is usually a selfish display of desires. While lovemaking is the union of two people as one, that Istel, is what you must strive for. To become so one with your partner as per the music that there will be a seemingly disappearance of the dancers into one.

Chances are that if you have been in love, you have made love to a woman causing you to been overtaken by emotions that were “dictated” by the setting/events/person, at the moment.

The key to salsa is when to know how to be physically together with a woman, know the how and when of leading a woman through a world of ecstasy based on the music. When I say how and when I don't mean to patterns and moves, but touch/feel, emotions, the Istel that only a loved one has gotten to know. Remember that everyone can do moves, but what can you do that will be unique? Feelings baby! Feelings!!! Know when the music calls for lovemaking’s sister and react accordingly, if you pay attention to yourself while you go about your everyday life chances are that your body will react to sounds, people, events in a certain way, those same feelings and reactions are what you will look to accentuate in your dancing. The music will put you in places where you are familiar with, “knowingly or unknowingly”, use them to your advantage. If you see that you tend to lose control of your feelings while dancing and want to completely fly away with patterns, DON’T. Stop yourself and focus on her, let her be your desires in the dance rather than moves being the goal in the dance. Focus all your passion or feelings at the moment on her!


Are u reading this ladies..? hmmm.. 8) .. i think i'm gona make reservations in the hospital emergency rooms just incase they get some serious heart ouchies there :wink: ..

[borikensalsero]

Are u reading this ladies..? hmmm.. 8) .. i think i'm gona make reservations in the hospital emergency rooms just incase they get some serious heart ouchies there :wink: ..

:oops: :oops:

Salsa baby, SALSA!!!

[peachexploration]

Welcome Istel...

I'm going to take a different approach hoping to convey the massage of musicality and your display of emotions within it.

Be aware of yourself, be aware of what you like, how you walk, how you run, how your feet move, how your arms move, how your body moves, and how your heart beats...

Then put yourself in this situation:
If I were making love to a woman to this one song, what would I Do? What emotions would I hope to pass to hear, and generate from her? How would I hold her? For how long? When will I be "rougher"? When will I be smoother? When will I be sensual? When would I be playful? When will I allow her to take over, lead me, sooth me? I stress lovemaking over sex for sex to males is usually a selfish display of desires. While lovemaking is the union of two people as one, that Istel, is what you must strive for. To become so one with your partner as per the music that there will be a seemingly disappearance of the dancers into one.

Chances are that if you have been in love, you have made love to a woman causing you to been overtaken by emotions that were “dictated” by the setting/events/person, at the moment.

The key to salsa is when to know how to be physically together with a woman, know the how and when of leading a woman through a world of ecstasy based on the music. When I say how and when I don't mean to patterns and moves, but touch/feel, emotions, the Istel that only a loved one has gotten to know. Remember that everyone can do moves, but what can you do that will be unique? Feelings baby! Feelings!!! Know when the music calls for lovemaking’s sister and react accordingly, if you pay attention to yourself while you go about your everyday life chances are that your body will react to sounds, people, events in a certain way, those same feelings and reactions are what you will look to accentuate in your dancing. The music will put you in places where you are familiar with, “knowingly or unknowingly”, use them to your advantage. If you see that you tend to lose control of your feelings while dancing and want to completely fly away with patterns, DON’T. Stop yourself and focus on her, let her be your desires in the dance rather than moves being the goal in the dance. Focus all your passion or feelings at the moment on her!

When your feelings touch the other person you will create an union that will undoubtedly cause your mistakes to be her mistakes, hence creating the perfection never seen in a mistake, for both of you have committed the same.

Once you get in touch with your inner most emotions you will not need to learn, nor worry about styling for your own body will react like it only can. You will become Istel in the dance, not a make up of styles from other people, but rather Istel inner dancing busting out in salsa. If you care to further expand what Istel is then by all means seek what others do and take what you like and make it part of you. However, don’t make Istel into them, but rather a particular move from a person Istel.

Always keep in mind that it isn’t what you do, but how you do what you do. Take the lady for a stroll in the clouds while being embraced by passion and she will forever be gracious of the opportunity to share a part of heaven while in the arms of Istel.

It is about love dear Istel, if the focus is ever shifted from there, you have lost the very essence that salsa is. Listen to yourself, pay attention to yourself, let your inner most feelings control your dancing and you will have not a worry about musicality, for what you will be doing is very much the union of a body to the music: MUSICALITY.

Boriken, you are one of a kind. :) Veeerrrry nice!

:oops: Whew! I need glass of water. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[borikensalsero]

Boriken, you are one of a kind. :) Veeerrrry nice!

:oops: Whew! I need glass of water. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dear Peach, thank you so very much!!! I'm just happy to share a little love with all of us. :D :D :D

Again, thank you for the kind words!

[Istel]

Welcome Istel...

I'm going to take a different approach hoping to convey the massage of musicality and your display of emotions within it.

Be aware of yourself, be aware of what you like, how you walk, how you run, how your feet move, how your arms move, how your body moves, and how your heart beats...

Then put yourself in this situation:
If I were making love to a woman to this one song, what would I Do? What emotions would I hope to pass to hear, and generate from her? How would I hold her? For how long? When will I be "rougher"? When will I be smoother? When will I be sensual? When would I be playful? When will I allow her to take over, lead me, sooth me? I stress lovemaking over sex for sex to males is usually a selfish display of desires. While lovemaking is the union of two people as one, that Istel, is what you must strive for. To become so one with your partner as per the music that there will be a seemingly disappearance of the dancers into one.

Chances are that if you have been in love, you have made love to a woman causing you to been overtaken by emotions that were “dictated” by the setting/events/person, at the moment.

The key to salsa is when to know how to be physically together with a woman, know the how and when of leading a woman through a world of ecstasy based on the music. When I say how and when I don't mean to patterns and moves, but touch/feel, emotions, the Istel that only a loved one has gotten to know. Remember that everyone can do moves, but what can you do that will be unique? Feelings baby! Feelings!!! Know when the music calls for lovemaking’s sister and react accordingly, if you pay attention to yourself while you go about your everyday life chances are that your body will react to sounds, people, events in a certain way, those same feelings and reactions are what you will look to accentuate in your dancing. The music will put you in places where you are familiar with, “knowingly or unknowingly”, use them to your advantage. If you see that you tend to lose control of your feelings while dancing and want to completely fly away with patterns, DON’T. Stop yourself and focus on her, let her be your desires in the dance rather than moves being the goal in the dance. Focus all your passion or feelings at the moment on her!

When your feelings touch the other person you will create an union that will undoubtedly cause your mistakes to be her mistakes, hence creating the perfection never seen in a mistake, for both of you have committed the same.

Once you get in touch with your inner most emotions you will not need to learn, nor worry about styling for your own body will react like it only can. You will become Istel in the dance, not a make up of styles from other people, but rather Istel inner dancing busting out in salsa. If you care to further expand what Istel is then by all means seek what others do and take what you like and make it part of you. However, don’t make Istel into them, but rather a particular move from a person Istel.

Always keep in mind that it isn’t what you do, but how you do what you do. Take the lady for a stroll in the clouds while being embraced by passion and she will forever be gracious of the opportunity to share a part of heaven while in the arms of Istel.

It is about love dear Istel, if the focus is ever shifted from there, you have lost the very essence that salsa is. Listen to yourself, pay attention to yourself, let your inner most feelings control your dancing and you will have not a worry about musicality, for what you will be doing is very much the union of a body to the music: MUSICALITY.

Thanks a lot everyone, for the the warm welcomes :D

Wow, that was some heavy reading materials... :shock:

You were spot on about the part, where I tended to lose my feelings or should I say overwhelmed by it halfway through the song especially when it's progressing faster... forgetting about my partner, speeding up on my moves and losing count of the beat... Also I tended to forget how to execute newly learnt moves that sounded just like the right thing to do with the music then in nervousness, and just rely on the enchuflas and la luna that I've learnt during my beginners lessons...

Another problem is that, due to the fact we do LA Style here or lack of musical education on salsa, everyone seems to dance LA Style to everything that's being played... (though people will still do merenge and bachatas to their respective numbers) or they'll do the Rueda wheel to just about any songs and be a big space killer :lol:

How can I learn to differentiate all the various influence of music in Salsa? I would love to know when a song is a cuban one or when it's other style?

Thanks again for all the lovely advices, will try to put them into use next time when I'm out dancing, keep them coming in though :P

I knew I'll feel at home here :oops: :D

[Big10]

Here are my thoughts on "musicality":

Musicality is a combination of (1) letting your body express what you are feeling from the music and (2) having a repetoire of moves sufficiently large to allow such expression. Of course, it doesn't have to be 100 moves -- or 50, or even 20. You just basically have to be able manifest a clear distinction in your movement to match a change in the music (tempo, instrumentation, passion in the vocals, etc.).

When I say "moves" I'm talking about personal body movement as well as turn patterns. Indeed, you could be doing just a standard closed basic, but sense the musical change and then rotate a bit, or perhaps lengthen/shorten your steps, or undulate your body if you can. Perhaps you're partnering, but sense a musical interlude where it becomes appropriate to solo/shine -- and then partner up again when that musical interlude is over. Maybe there's a lyrical refrain/chorus, where you decide to repeat a specific move each time the refrain starts up again, but not at other points in the song.

If you want to get more sophisticated with your musicality, then that's when you have to be comfortable with different body movements -- such as using your arms or hips or shoulders to mark accents in the music. Practicing at home helps A LOT. It also helps to practice certain moves in a mirror, so that you can decide what movements look appropriate for your body, as well as developing some muscle memory when it finally looks and feels "right."

There have been some steps that seemed awkward to me when I first tried them, even though I thought the steps looked really cool for other people. After practicing them at home 20 or 30 or 40 times, they finally started to seem "natural" enough so that I could try them at the club for the first time. Even so, you do have to acknowledge that you might look "silly" sometimes. There's a bit of trial and error involved to find out what will consistently work for you on a dance floor.

Yet, the more natural you allow a particular body movement to become, the easier it is to integrate with your other moves -- and sometimes you'll do it without even planning it! That's when you'll know that you're truly feeling the music, and you've allowed the music itself to dictate your movement. That's musicality.

[Istel]

Hiya ppl!

I just wanna say that the advices you guys were a great help! :D
Was out dancing a few hours ago, when my usual gang wasn't around...
So I had to go around asking for dances from "strangers" :( :lol:

I was still having problems trying to improve my lead. As I went around trying out my usual stuff, I ended up having a difficult time AGAIN leading some of the girls whom I was dancing with. They seemed pretty tensed up for some reason. Anyway... all I can say was that the results weren't pretty... :cry:

Then for some reason, I didn't know what got into me. I decided to ask one of my instructor for a dance (the horror! :shock:). She looked pretty surprised as I've not really talked to her much 'cept for some questions on my rueda moves.

So getting her on the dance floor, I did my usual **** again... :? Though she was "smiling", I could see that she was just "patronising" me or should I say plain bored... (For some reason, I hated to see bored looking faces when I'm dancing with someone, it's an insult to my self esteem... :lol: ) Thinking that enough was enough... I decided to spin her off for shines.

THEN, I decided to ditch all the crap that I've learnt (the sadness of being a 100% "pattern dancer"! in the words of our dear mod :D )and just danced to the music (thanks to the advice given here) even though I was just randomly tapping/moving on the floor, I did it to the exact beat and tempo of the music. For some reason, she seemed to brighten up and did more shines as well... ^-^;;; anyway, she seemed pretty happy after the dance and I asked for her opinion on my problem. She said everything was pretty okay, even though I knew it was not (we got stucked when I tried to tunnel her... :oops:) Sigh... guess she was just being polite...

Anyway, the opinions from one of my friends was that, he was surprised to see me holding myself pretty well when dancing with her. Although it might just be an encouragement for me, it pretty much made my night, even though I went around saying how badly I did on the dancefloor with my instructor...(it's the truth :oops: )

So thanks a lot ppl!!! :D

P.S. Just a little request. I'm having problems trying to make ladies look good while dancing with me, so is there any threads addressing this problem? Also, when the girls are doing shines while in Titanic postition(eh... I wonder do we use the same terminology...) what should the guys do? Just holding her hands and stand still (that's what I do normally, maybe I'll do a few butt shake if I'm feeling it...) How can we guys amplify her shines, so that she really shines (pardon the pun)on the dance floor?

[MacMoto]

THEN, I decided to ditch all the crap that I've learnt (the sadness of being a 100% "pattern dancer"! in the words of our dear mod :D )and just danced to the music (thanks to the advice given here) even though I was just randomly tapping/moving on the floor, I did it to the exact beat and tempo of the music. For some reason, she seemed to brighten up and did more shines as well... ^-^;;; anyway, she seemed pretty happy after the dance and I asked for her opinion on my problem. She said everything was pretty okay, even though I knew it was not (we got stucked when I tried to tunnel her... :oops:) Sigh... guess she was just being polite...

I'm really glad to hear this! I don't think she was just being polite... when you can just dance to the music it's great fun, and she must have enjoyed doing shines with you a lot. Stop talking yourself down... give yourself a pat on the back for what you've managed to achieve -- asking your instructor to dance and making it an enjoyable one, which is a great thing. Remember what it felt like just to move to the music, and always think about it when you dance.

I think you may find this thread interesting: http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=54084&highlight=#54084


P.S. Just a little request. I'm having problems trying to make ladies look good while dancing with me, so is there any threads addressing this problem?

...

How can we guys amplify her shines, so that she really shines (pardon the pun)on the dance floor?
I think it's wonderful that you are thinking about these things -- you know, the first step to achieving these things is to start thinking about it. Many leaders don't. I don't know if there is a specific thread on this issue, but here's what I think.

- To make ladies look good, you have to make them feel good. When they feel good, it will show in their dance. So focus on how you can make her feel good rather than thinking in terms of "what move can I do to show her off?"

- To make your partner feel good, dance with her. Salsa dancing is about you and your partner sharing a song and expressing it through your togetherness. Look at her, smile at her, see how she reacts to your lead, see what she's doing and respond to it. Make your dance a truly interactive experience.

- Unless both the leader and the follower are very good dancers, I think having too many moves spoils the look of the dance. Too many moves make the dance look busy, and doesn't give the follower the chance to shine (in the sense of looking good rather than freestyling). Doing a fewer number of well-executed moves where the music calls for a bang looks so much better and shows off the lady to better effect. Also, don't rush your moves (another thing that tends to happen when you try to put too many moves in a dance). Take your time and always, always dance to the beat of the music.

[Sabor]

P.S. Just a little request. I'm having problems trying to make ladies look good while dancing with me, so is there any threads addressing this problem?

i'm sure there are threads about this wether directly or indirectly.. but this was answered in this thread b4 i think..
in a word the answer is to 'love the salsera' .. 'find the connection' ie. dance with her like u and her are the only people in the universe.. and be as 'smooth and flowing as possible'.. the rest automatically takes care of itself and are more or less technicalities that u learn with experience and adjust according to the salsera's dancing and mood


How can we guys amplify her shines, so that she really shines (pardon the pun)on the dance floor?

for me, i do varied things depending.. u could just stand still as u said and provide support..
other times my legs are fixed but i work my hips and shoulders and arms with her shines.. or
i let her go and shine opposite her.. but at much lower rate than her so as to keep the focuss in her..
or i provide her with support by keeping my hands out and fixed but work with my feet doing various salsa footwork variety if in place..
or i pull away while she goes at it full steam and all i do is watch her and do some playful flirty moves like popping my chest like my heart is beating like mad.. or for instance squat down and do mad shoulder shakes while slowly moving in a circle around her..or.. go around her with sideways steps and rotating the hips full circle and reverse.. or pumping/shaking it etc.. etc..

there are many many things u can do.. these are just some of the stuff i do so that maybe u get an idea out of it and do it your way..

plus i would say that if u are in tune with the rythm and her.. then feel free to improvise cause it will be unexpected and usually this is the stuff that makes it more interesting.. as u did with your instructer in your post.. ie. once u are in flow.. be sure to ride it 8)

[Big10]

THEN, I decided to ditch all the crap that I've learnt (the sadness of being a 100% "pattern dancer"! in the words of our dear mod :D )and just danced to the music (thanks to the advice given here) even though I was just randomly tapping/moving on the floor, I did it to the exact beat and tempo of the music. For some reason, she seemed to brighten up and did more shines as well...
Sounds like a great time! Having fun during shines can be contagious, so it doesn't surprise me at all that your instructor/partner brightened up when you started having more fun yourself.

anyway, she seemed pretty happy after the dance and I asked for her opinion on my problem. She said everything was pretty okay, even though I knew it was not (we got stucked when I tried to tunnel her... :oops:) Sigh... guess she was just being polite...
Even though I wasn't there, I'm guessing that she was indeed genuinely "happy." Having a good time during a dance isn't always about 100% flawless execution. Just like anything else in life, it's how you adapt after a mistake that can make a tremendous difference in how you are perceived. Yes, you should try your best to execute the moves, but if you don't get it exactly right, then just continue to have fun while you try another move....

[Sabor]

Even though I wasn't there, I'm guessing that she was indeed genuinely "happy." Having a good time during a dance isn't always about 100% flawless execution. Just like anything else in life, it's how you adapt after a mistake that can make a tremendous difference in how you are perceived. Yes, you should try your best to execute the moves, but if you don't get it exactly right, then just continue to have fun while you try another move....

well said/wrote brotha

[Istel]

Hee, thanks for all the encouragements, will remind myself to groove in the music next time I'm out salsing! (which is tomorrow night I guess...) :D

Say http://www.dance-forums.com/album/data//500/160758-thumb.gif to mindless pattern dancing!

[MacMoto]

Way to go Istel. Have fun -- after all, that's the whole point of salsa dancing! :wink:

[Sagitta]

By the way I have discovered that AT is really good for improving musicality. It is helping me see my salsa in a new light, and may I suggest that it will help you see yours too? :wink: :) And, after all BTM has spoken of taking salsa, so we need to reciprocate, n'est pas?

[peachexploration]

...Say http://www.dance-forums.com/album/data//500/160758-thumb.gif to mindless pattern dancing!

:D :D :D Just love that line.

[CyberKnight]

I learned from the musicality dvds on her Dancefreak site

[wonderwoman]

Hi GR, long time no see.

GR, I have absolutely no music or dance background. I had never danced before in my life before enrolling in a salsa studio a couple of years ago (unless you consider dancing with your aunts at weddings dance background). In high school, I only listened to heavy metal and hard rock (and occasionally some POP). To me that doesn’t constitute musical background.

When I started having salsa classes, I didn’t understand the rhythm. It took me an entire 6 months to find the beat :oops: :oops: (please don’t tell anyone this). I was the last guy in my class to do this. To some, the rhythm felt natural, while others picked it up a month or two later. The girls I danced with were always complaining about that. Anyway, after finding the beat I progressed really fast. I then concentrated on the patterns and leading them well. After accomplishing this, I felt I was a good dancer. Girls stopped complaining, I received some smiles and rarely got turned down.

One fine day, I found myself dancing a slow salsa with this girl I had never seen before in my life. I was completely blown away! She was dancing as if the music was coming from inside her. It was as if she was in another world. Even though I was leading, it felt like the music was leading her and she was leading me. I could feel her musicality flowing into me. After a while, I instinctively switched to “passive mode” and tried to absorb as much of this sensation as possible. She then smiled and turned away. I was in a state of shock! I didn’t realize you could dance that way to music. I finally realized why some people enjoyed dancing so much! It wasn’t just a set of moves and keeping to the beat, which was what I had been doing. It was much more. After that I knew I just had to dance that way.

I could endlessly explain to you how a roller coaster ride feels like, but only if I take you with me and show you, will you completely understand. One thing is theory; another is being there, feeling it… This is what that girl did, she showed me. I was connected to her and felt it through her. I never saw her again but I feel privileged for that one dance we had. It changed me and the way I look at dancing.

Now I agree with you, one or several songs cannot give you musicality, but it can introduce you to it. It enables you to grasp the concept and from then on, it’s up to you.
It was me. Just kidding. But seriously. I want to be her. This perfectly explained what I've been obsessing/dreaming about accomplishing in my dancing.

[Ray Sison]

It was me. Just kidding. But seriously. I want to be her. This perfectly explained what I've been obsessing/dreaming about accomplishing in my dancing.

Yes, how amazing that description. Such heaven...

[azzey]

Just thought you guys might be interested in this thread on our sister forum SalsaForums:
Adding musicality to my salsa dancing (http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=16953)