Racism and choosing a teacher

[MadamSamba]

The other day I went to a milonga (tango social) and heard someone say they would never learn tango from a non-Argentinian and that it was a waste of time and money to learn from a non-Argentinian.

Many of those in the conversation agreed. I've heard the same thing said many times and, though I'm shocked every time, I wasn't as surprised as when I first heard these sentiments echoed.

When you think about it, it's actually racist to not choose a teacher because he/she is not of a certain heritage.

I understand the "theory" behind the premise, but logically it's not true. You don't have to be French to dance or teach ballet, nor do you have to be South American to dance or teach salsa, so what is it about tangueros and the need to learn tango only from an Argentinian?

Is this notion perpetuated in other dance styles?

What are some of the other "unspoken" rules of of choosing a dance teacher you've come across? I once heard someone say they refused to learn with a certain instructor because he was "too old and too fat", which was astounding. He is a bloody good dancer.

[SDsalsaguy]

I once heard someone say they refused to learn with a certain instructor because he was "too old and too fat", which was astounding. He is a bloody good dancer.
This sentiment is all that much more stupid since how good a dancer he is (or isn't) is not the same thing as how good a teacher he may (or may not) be!

[MadamSamba]

Indeed, SD. I was more than a little surprised. The guy in question literally glides. He may be double the size of his students, but he's by far a better dancers, even better than some other teachers and all his students are pretty good too.

[ShyDancer]

I think generally everyone wants to "learn from the best" and knowing the origins of Tango is Argentinian you assume that they are the best qualified to teach it.

I would LOVE to travel to England and take some Standard lessons from some of their top coaches......why? Because as a generalisation (and maybe not, look at Christopher & Hazel) the English are the best, the epitome of Standard Ballroom.

People want to learn Salsa on the streets of Puerto Rico, dance in French Ballet schools like you say..because they are known as the best.

I really dont think racisim is behind it, but it does come acroos like that in a kinda twisted way,... usually you associate racism with hateing a culture rather than only wanting something for one specific one!

[Sagitta]

It is a common misconception that if you belong to the culture or country from which a dance come sfrom you will be a better teacher of it. However, isn't necessarily the case as one of the AT teachers here in Ithaca is Russian, and a couple other great intructors who came to teach AT weekend workshops were American. :)

[MacMoto]

On one hand, I suppose it's generally true that where the dance is more popular -- where the dance population is larger -- the standard of teaching should be on the whole better, and that should ensure that more good teachers will come out of the place. On the other hand, however, being born and brought up in that place doesn't automatically make someone a good teacher of the dance... especially since not all good dancers are necessarily good teachers.

My AT teacher is Scottish. My current salsa teachers are very good, and they are also Scottish. And you know what? I attended a Cuban style salsa workshop with a teacher from Cuba once, and although he was an amazing dancer, he simply didn't know how to break down and explain moves, which made him a pretty lousy teacher.

[bordertangoman]

. I attended a Cuban style salsa workshop with a teacher from Cuba once, and although he was an amazing dancer, he simply didn't know how to break down and explain moves, which made him a pretty lousy teacher.

Seeems pretty obvious: really the ability to dance and the ability to teach are not necessarily the same.. or exist in the same person, plus there can be linguistic problems. I have been taught by Argentian, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, American tango teachers and I would say the quality depended on a) teaching ability, b) personality c) whether I liked them.
I have experienced Argentine teachers who range from excellent to indifferent.

[squirrel]

Hmmm... it is just a prejudice... one should judge people by their abilities, not by nationality, race a.s.o.
I am Romanian, but I don't know the first thing about Romanian folklore dancing!!! Anybody can be better than I am! Including an Eskimo!

[salsamale]

I would have to admit that I would give the Argentinian instructor points. I would also give points to non-Argentinian instructors who claim in their bio/ pedigree to have been taught by Argentinian instructors, or to spend or have spent significant amounts of time in BsAs.

[Ampster]

That's a common misconception and predjudice. It's an aura perpetuated that being Argentinean, gives you an edge over the non-Argentinean. It's the premise that since you're Argentinean, living in a place that was the birth of Tango, you should be good at it.

I have a lot of friends who are Argentinean, born and raised in Buenos Aires, and can't dance. They ask me to teach them and take them to milongas.

IMHO, it's all a matter of knowledge transfer and delivery. If the proper knowledge and technique is transfered properly to the right individual, with the right passion and teaching skills, then genetically, it doesn't matter from where you hail from.

I have seen, and studied from several "renowned, and world class" teachers from Argentina who just simply wasted my time and money. I'm not taken by this "... from Argentina" thing. It's the level of expertise and delivery that impresses me. So, before I take any classes, I research and scrutinize these people first... and watch their students. I try to see the products of their teaching skills.

[samina]

I really dont think racisim is behind it, but it does come acroos like that in a kinda twisted way,... usually you associate racism with hateing a culture rather than only wanting something for one specific one!

i absolutely agree on this account. i don't see anything racist about wanting to study with teachers from certain cultural backgrounds. there are benefits to doing so, even if there are plenty of wonderful & well-trained teachers in every style from all over the world.

[salsamale]

... and watch their students. I try to see the products of their teaching skills.
That's a really good point.

[Me]

My coach laughs about this all the time. He was born in France, and his mother was American black. He now lives in America and travels to Mexico to teach salsa. His students joke about how a black Frenchman from America comes in to teach them Latin.

The Americans? They import one of his students from Mexico to teach them salsa.
:doh:


(I'm not kidding!)

[bordertangoman]

I've met goood teachers from the US, Argentina,the UK, Nederlands, Russia,

and lousy teachers from Argentina, the UK, Brasil.

Since I teach myself I am very analytical about the what and how of teaching.

I think for Argentinians there are sometimes cultural and linguistic problems.
This may also be true for those who are professional dancers who are used to being pushed and pushing people. They dump their disciplinarian approach on amateurs. I have seen teachers who can't see when a student is going wrong nor how to correct it.

I've also come across some students who are simply resistant to change and don't progress.

[salsera_alemana]

My coach laughs about this all the time. He was born in France, and his mother was American black. He now lives in America and travels to Mexico to teach salsa. His students joke about how a black Frenchman from America comes in to teach them Latin.

The Americans? They import one of his students from Mexico to teach them salsa.
:doh:


(I'm not kidding!)

And they don't know that most Mexicans cannot dance salsa or are terrible salsa dancers :(

[bastet]

I have seen, and studied from several "renowned, and world class" teachers from Argentina who just simply wasted my time and money. I'm not taken by this "... from Argentina" thing. It's the level of expertise and delivery that impresses me. So, before I take any classes, I research and scrutinize these people first... and watch their students. I try to see the products of their teaching skills.

I agree completely. I always look at how the students they have taught dance before making a decsion on a class, if I can. Nationality has nothing to do with it. Ability to get the concept across to someone else and (to me) an ability to have an underlying teaching structure takes priority to where a person comes from. In fact, one teacher I know of that people claim to be "the real deal" because they are from Argentina (and who often gets promo'd this way by their students) has some of the most poorly trained students I have seen (and danced with).

[spectator]

And they don't know that most Mexicans cannot dance salsa or are terrible salsa dancers :(

jajaja! that's what I always thought, but was to embarrassed to say,
mexican friends in club in Islington: Wow! look at those dancers, they must be mexican yes?
me:nope
mexicans:noooooooooooooooooo they can not be english they dance better than us!

same mexicans encountering cubans from cuba: "salsa is from mexico... they're all doing it wrooooooong"

[newbie]

Can a german teach english? Sure. Most of us while in school have learned foreign languages from a non-foreign teacher. Would have these classes been better with a foreign teacher? No, because we wouldn't have understood anything. But for the few of us who chose to become real good in this foreign language there has always been a time, later, when we took masterclasses from a foreign teacher.

[jfm]

ok, i'm probably way off in the wrong direction here but:

in Europe and the US we learn tango differently to argentines. they learn it at a younger age, from their friends, families nd sometimes school. they don't learn steps and patterns first, they learn to dance. We insist on doing this BACKWARDS.


there is nothing wrong with learning only from an argentine teacher.

I also think that there is some value in learning from non argentininean teachers if you are not a natural dancer-ie you need things explained that seem obvious to people who learned the dance in a different way. because they will have more of an idea of the obstacles we face in learning-in particular learning in a big mixed sex group class. They know how to break things down and how to explain to people who have difficulty understanding the music and how to embrace.
They have encountered all the bits we stumble on when they learned and speaking to other people in their class-the little quirks that wouldn't neccessarily be noticed.



Often good teachers aren't the best at what they teach, they are good teachers because they are great communicators snd they have tripped and taken the prattfalls. I much preferred my maths teacher who had struggled himself and sometimes used a calculator to the one who had a double first from cambridge-one understood why i didn't get it it, the other, it was obvious to him that he couldn't work out how is could possibly not be obvious to me!

[Dave Bailey]

The other day I went to a milonga (tango social) and heard someone say they would never learn tango from a non-Argentinian and that it was a waste of time and money to learn from a non-Argentinian.
I've heard this too - it's rubbish. It's like the "But that's how they do it in BsAs, so it must be right (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16353)" argument I encounter occasionally.

Yes, obviously, Argentinian native dancers are more used to the dance, and may even be better dancers in general because of that cultural heritage. But they may also be worse teachers, simply because they can't explain some key concepts without demonstrations (and, over here, because their mastery of English may be poor. Iironically, this seems to add to the mystique for some people - I'm sure some of them put the accent on for effect :) ).

The best class I've had was with Korey Ireland (from the USA) - the worst class was from a certain infamous London teacher who teaches nothing but patterns (from Argentina). On the other hand, the second-best class I had was from Gonzalo Orihuela and Solange Chapperon (from Argentina). And one of the worst classes I've attended was from an English couple.

Good teachers are where you find them.

Is this notion perpetuated in other dance styles?
Not to such a great degree, as far as I know.

[bordertangoman]

The best class I've had was with Korey Ireland (from the USA) -
Good teachers are where you find them.
[/SIZE]

.

I an going to bowl a googlie here; I think learning to dance ( or a dance form) is autodidactic in that you have to take responsibilty for practicing, understanding what the teacher is trying to convey, and getting over whatever obstacles make it difficult for you.

Thus I can say I have leant things from lousy teachers, who were worse dancers than I, because I can extract what I need to know and throw the rest away- wheat and chaff in other words.

[newbie]

they learn it at a younger age

No they don't.
"Young BsAs people during the 80s were not interested in tango. They were listening Duran Duran, not tango music", a porteno said to me.
The last people who learned when young were young in the 50s, they're old now.

[Joe]

Her name is Rio...

[spectator]

Forgive me if i am wrong but:

People who were born in 1990 are now 17.
People born in the late 70s have been able to attend public dances for 17 + years.
Just because milongas were banned under assembly rules does not mean people did not teach their children/friends in the privacy of their own homes.
The Argentine government has given out grants to high schools and primary schools to teach children to tango.

I would call learning tango in childhood, adolescence and early 20s young compared to the mainly thirties+ crowd that attends the lessons I have been to.

I don't think she ever said that all argentines learned tango as they were breast fed. In fact we know some argentineans who have never tango'd and don't want to. She just mde the point that the way they teach is different because they already have an idea of what tango is so they don't need to learn ganchos in the first lesson to keep them coming back. They start at the beginning.

[spectator]

And also the older crowd are always sniffy about the youngsters for example:

In my day we had blink and Off spring, now their all like ooooh my chemical romance...
no way man, no way.
what happened to teenage skate punk?

[Tanguera]

No they don't.
The last people who learned when young were young in the 50s, they're old now.
Not actually true: in BsAs people that now are 20 have learnt AT at school when they were children. :)



About the nationality of teachers: I have had good teachers form Argentina and even better teachers who were not Argentinian.

[jfm]

yes and the 25 year old argentine students i know who frequent milongas in edinburgh and london would also be suprised to learn that they don't tango.

[bastet]

in Europe and the US we learn tango differently to argentines. they learn it at a younger age, from their friends, families nd sometimes school. they don't learn steps and patterns first, they learn to dance. We insist on doing this BACKWARDS.


there is nothing wrong with learning only from an argentine teacher.


Well- I can say frommy own expereience that one particular old milonguero couple(from BsAs) that I had a chance to take classes from and decided against, taught nothing but patterns. I based my decision on a dance I had with someone who said they learned some patterns from this couple. Then had my decision reinforced when a person I knew who DID take the class, learned nothing but patterns and complained.

There IS nothing worng with learning from an Argentine teacher just as there is nothing wrong with learning from a non-argentine.

It's all in your preference, I prefer to learn concepts, not patterns and I don't care where the teacher is from as long as this is observed.

One thing I am not sure about is the comment about Argentines learning to "dance" first rather than steps or patterns. If this were entirely the case I don't see what would have necessitated Fabian Salas and Gustavo Naveira coming along and breaking tango down to basic elements and a giving us a whole new teaching style (Nuevo Tango). My very first class in tango in 1998 was taught by visiting people from Argentina and was entirely pattern based. I promptly forgot most of it.

People tend to teach in the way they themselves were taught, unless they REALLY work hard at doing it differently, and I have had an equal mix of teachers from BsAs and elsewhere teach either pattern or concept. But, for me, it has usually (not always) been the ones like ALex Krebs or Lucianna Valle (the younger set?) who have focused mainly on concept in classes I have had with them and not patterns. Some of my absolutely best classes have been with people who teach this way, several have been Argentine and several have not.

[jfm]

what i was really trying to say was (but doing it badly!):

some people find it harder to learn from argentinean teachers because the points of reference the teachers are explaining from are very different to that of a northern european / USA student who does not make demonstrative displays of affection (hugging/kissing etc) ie is unfamiliar with non sexual physical intimacy and not at all used to dancing to music. Something that might seem obvious or totally instinctive to a teacher who has learned in BA might be something totally alien to someone from outside. American/european/asian etc teachers may have had to over come them them selves or at least encountered these problems or quirks much more often that the argentinean teachers. I was just saying that there are advantages to both sides. Horses for courses.

[bastet]

Well- there is something to be said for that, though I have had more than a few friends who take up Tango fully "embrace" (pun intended) the intimacy of a tango embrace. Certainly, I also know people who have a much harder time with this "invasion of space" because of their personality or upbringing who just can't let that last wall down.

[spectator]

there are certainly guys i know of who think if you dance close embrace you want something more than a nice dance...