Argentine Tango - Want To Learn...

[Spitfire]

I'm interested in learning Argentine Tango. Do I understand correctly that there is no basic pattern?

I understand that it can be tricky to learn. What is the aspect that makes this so?

[SDsalsaguy]

From what I understand, what makes Argentine Tango so tricky is that steps are not what you are leading and following but, rather, individual weight changes. I too am interested in learning so will have to leave it to someone better versed then I to explain further....

[DanceMentor]

There is a common basic.
Man's part:
Back on the right foot
Side on the left foot
Forward on the right foot outside partner
Forward on the Left Foot
Bring Right foot together
Forward on the Left Foot
Side on the Right Foot
Bring Left Foot Together

Lady's Part:
Forward on the Left Foot
Side on the Right Foot
Back on the Left Foot
Back on the Right Foot
Cross the Left Foot in Front on the Right Foot
Back Side Together (RLR)

This is often danced Slow, Slow, Slow, Quick, Hold (the cross), Quick, Quick Slow. But the music and the dancer's interpretaton both play a roll. Sometimes the first or second steps of this common basic are excluded.

[will35]

You are exactly right. No basic. Be very, very wary of people who say there is a basic pattern. It could take a long, long time to get it out of your head and learn to dance.

[Spitfire]

My first class was earlier this afternoon.

[SDsalsaguy]

My first class was earlier this afternoon.

So how was it? How did it go?

[golddancer]

In the "old days" in Argentina only men learned the dance and it was a womans role to follow. This does not negate the need for partnership skills.

The true Tangouera would say the most important step in Argentine Tango is the walk. I believe this too. As a lady I have to move and follow but it is the skill and the walk that is most important.

There are patterns to learn but it is more important to move because the Argentine Tango is the expression of the music. It moves slow and fast and is moody and joyful.

Find a good instructor and learn both the Mans and the woman's part. It will make the dance more enjoyable because you learn what signals your partner receives.

[SDsalsaguy]

Find a good instructor and learn both the Mans and the woman's part. It will make the dance more enjoyable because you learn what signals your partner receives.
Welcome to the forums golddancer! :D

This is excellent advice, for any dance I think!

[Spitfire]

My first class was earlier this afternoon.

So how was it? How did it go?

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?

[SDsalsaguy]

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?
Sounds about what I expected. Now that you've had some exposure, would you say that my initial impression (quoted again below) seems right?

From what I understand, what makes Argentine Tango so tricky is that steps are not what you are leading and following but, rather, individual weight changes.

[Spitfire]

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?
Sounds about what I expected. Now that you've had some exposure, would you say that my initial impression (quoted again below) seems right?

From what I understand, what makes Argentine Tango so tricky is that steps are not what you are leading and following but, rather, individual weight changes.

Exactly; since there is no pattern it seems to be pretty much body leading.

[MissAlyssa]

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?
Sounds about what I expected. Now that you've had some exposure, would you say that my initial impression (quoted again below) seems right?

From what I understand, what makes Argentine Tango so tricky is that steps are not what you are leading and following but, rather, individual weight changes.

Exactly; since there is no pattern it seems to be pretty much body leading.


Where did you take your lesson :?:

[Spitfire]

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?
Sounds about what I expected. Now that you've had some exposure, would you say that my initial impression (quoted again below) seems right?

From what I understand, what makes Argentine Tango so tricky is that steps are not what you are leading and following but, rather, individual weight changes.

Exactly; since there is no pattern it seems to be pretty much body leading.


Where did you take your lesson :?:

From the studio where I go dancing. They have a class on Argentine Tango every Saturday afternoon at 2:00. The first hour is beginning and the second is intermediate.

[will35]

Here's another thing that can make AT difficult for a leader. The dancers can dance on a different foot or the same foot. That is, left for leader and left for follower. That is illegal and unheard of in most dances. It gives it a lot of variety, especially with the pivots. Let's imagine that both dancers are on the right foot. The leader wants to move to his left. The follower's weight is on her right foot. How can she move? She pivots. Maybe that is why AT is full of what people call ochos.
I've known a lot of people who were pretty good at ballroom and just didn't get AT. Then, I've known some people who were good at ballroom, took one authentic AT class, and never danced ballroom again. I've never really met anybody anywhere in between. What do you think?

[Spitfire]

Here's another thing that can make AT difficult for a leader. The dancers can dance on a different foot or the same foot. That is, left for leader and left for follower. That is illegal and unheard of in most dances. It gives it a lot of variety, especially with the pivots. Let's imagine that both dancers are on the right foot. The leader wants to move to his left. The follower's weight is on her right foot. How can she move? She pivots. Maybe that is why AT is full of what people call ochos.
I've known a lot of people who were pretty good at ballroom and just didn't get AT. Then, I've known some people who were good at ballroom, took one authentic AT class, and never danced ballroom again. I've never really met anybody anywhere in between. What do you think?

What do I think?

Will let you know as I progress. :)

[will35]

Good luck. It can be a little frustrating, but I guess all dances are. :wink:

[golddancer]

I know it is challenging the switching of the feet ... it is contrary to ballroom. But it is one of the key "spices" of the dance.

I still do ballroom and A. T. and it is requires a lot of concentration to keep them seperate.

I have the most fun dancing American tango with an AT tango because we mix the two. American tango has its roots in Arg Tango.

I am going to a dance tonight and maybe will get a chance to do both.


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[MissAlyssa]

Good luck. It can be a little frustrating, but I guess all dances are. :wink:

so true..

[d nice]

My first AT lesson in four years is tomorrow... needless to say I'm ecstatic.

[pygmalion]

Cool. I also signed up for some group classes with a couple that are supposed to be pretty good. Keep me posted on how it goes, okay? :)

[SDsalsaguy]

SO....

A little update please d nice...

:wink:

[pygmalion]

Yes. Do tell. My group classes (first ever!) start on the 26th.

[DanceMentor]

I'm going to a big Argentine Tango event this Friday here in Atlanta at a hotel called the Biltmore. I'll try to let you know how it went this weekend.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, DM.

Any input would be appreciated. AT is a dance I haven't learned yet, but I already love.

Jenn

[d nice]

It went really well.

The teacher paid me a lot of compliments about my movement, how it was already very "tangoesque".

I spent the time learning how to stand, walk (forward, back, and open), and ochos (forward and back) and given an exercise... um... "Molero"? I don't remember the name, but it was essentially walking around a chair using the open step and ochos.

Some of the movements are so different than swing dancing which is my base, but Neal explains the theory behind the movement and what at first seems contradictory to natural movement becomes obviousely clear.

I'm excited.

[pygmalion]

Cool. Sounds like you had fun. The couple I'm going to be taking lessons from have pretty impressive backgrounds, so I'm optimistic. They're also sponsoring a day-long workshop next month with some experts from Argentina, but I'm too intimidated to try that one. Maybe next year.

[d nice]

It was a blast.

I've known Neal for a few years now, we aren't "Friends" so much as friends of friends. I'm always leery about getting compliments at dances I am new to. A lot of people know me as a swing instructor, and I feel that they just want to encourage me. I tend to completely blow of compliments because of this. Neal hhowever seemed geniunely impressed at my speed at picking up the movement principles. I love the dance and the music and look forward to gaining some level of competance at it.

[will35]

Sounds like what you did was a molinete. The people who say the Argentine Tango has no steps think of it as just walking. Walk, pivot, walk, pivot..... It is one of the few conventions that we have in the Argentine Tango. It almost always goes that way; back, side, front, side. But it can start anywhere and end anywhere. You can do three in a row or half of one or one fourth of one, etc. You can stop in the middle of one and change direction if you like. You can do it with your partner or you can stand still and lead her through it. Or she can stand still, and you can do it. Some people think of it as the basis of all tango. Those are the "turns" people. Some people consider just walking to be the basis of all tango. Those I call the "Tango Walkers". What do you think?

[d nice]

Yes that is it, molinete. I really enjoy it is both incredibly easy, and incredibly complex. Walking and turning, hunh?

One of the reason I'm such a fan of the vernacular dances is that patterns and moves are justa basis which is intended for the transmission of the spirit of the dance (this can be true of ballroom dances also, but I have found that the emphasis of the medal system and competition often seems to be at odds with this).

I'm looking forward to my next lesson.

[will35]

I agree. I look at it as a question of freedom v. order. I never said the other dances were not free, just a difference in the ratio of one to the other. What I guess I really dislike about the medals is that it holds back the evolution of the dance, except changes made by people who have been through all the medals and sit on all the panels. And by the time those changes come, the people's dance is years ahead. Too much establishment for me. You see, you have only had a few classes, and you already know all the steps, and you can make up your own.

[pygmalion]

I can really see what you're saying, will35. And anybody who's ever seen Strictly Ballroom has seen the humorous side of what you're saying.

I guess for me the question is how do you balance the need for freedom to dance with the need to have some standards? Like, for example, how can I tell if a dance professional has a certain skill level? By the certifications hanging on his/her studio wall, mostly. The medal system is restrictive, but I think it has some valid uses.

Maybe it's just a matter of knowing when to throw the official syllabi out the window and just dance. Sanctioned patterns are for competitions, but, when you're out dancing and having fun, just have fun.


What do you think?

[will35]

I used to go to a little get together in Valencia that they called "Las Falles". It was a celebration of Catalonyan culture, but not really made for tourists. It was for the Valencians and by them. They would spend all year making huge caricature things of wood and papier mache. They looked like big, colorful buildings, and at the height of the falles on the last night, they would pick the winning building and burn it up. On the nights before, they had burned all the others. Then, they would sing some national type song that was in Catalan, so the Spaniards and the Americans and Germans who were there didn't understand it. They also had a contest for who could make the best paella, and let me tell you, it was all good paella. A person, any person could walk along the street and try all the paellas, and choose which was the best. Oh, they might have had official judges, or something, but in the end, nobody ever knew who won. If you asked a dozen Valencians "Who won?", you would get a dozen different answers. I don't remember if there were medals or ribbons or not, but it didn't matter. Nobody cared. It was damn good paella. I think you can see why this would definitely not work in USA. Oh, we could have something and call it "The Falles", but I GUARANTEE it would look nothing like the original. There is a subtle difference between socialization and establishment. If you learn to dance on the street corner, who owns the street to give you the medal?

[d nice]

Thank you. This is exactly why I love swing dancing. The culture of a street dance is very different from a ballroom dance.

I hate to say it but I've seen some terrible social dancers and some terrible instructors who had tested out of the syllabus and certified as teachers.

I don't look for or ask about certification. I look what they do on the social floor, and sit in on a class. DO the students enjoy the class? Do they pick up th einformation easily? Does what the teacher said make sense to YOU?

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Interesting perspectives. And I also do the same with ballroom dance. For example, when I went to a public ballroom dance Saturday night, there were three or four instructors there with groups of students. I have no idea what their credentials are (other than my own coach, of course) but I can sure tell you who, from my view, is the best teacher. I can also tell you which one is training his/her students with proper footwork, who's doing competitive training, and who's just waltzing the students around for a paycheck. It's impossible not to see these things, if you look at all. When we're sitting around a dance floor watching, we're all judges, one way or another, street dance OR ballroom, and, in that sense medals do become irrelevant.

Maybe I'm prejudiced by my early dance experience at a franchise studio which did its own training and certification, and had some truly inferior instructors advertised as competent. A little standardized certification there would have protected lots of unsuspecting students from being duped into paying top dollar for poor quality instruction. Just another perspective. :) :?

For me personally, since I have no idea as yet what I want to "do" with my dance career, it can't hurt to get the certifications -- not as a goal in and of themselves. The goal is to be a very good dancer, and I'm getting there (slowly :lol: ). But if I'm a good dancer, why not get the paper to go with it?

Then, whatever I decide to do in the future, I have a dance resume to back it up.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. To me, a dance certification is like a drivers' license. The certification does document that you have certain minimum skills, but that's when you start learning to teach or to dance, not when you're done.

The day I got my drivers' license, I could not drive, but I had demonstrated that I had the minimum skills so I could be let loose on the road ( a quiet road, at 15 mph :lol: ).

Same thing when I got my bronze ISTD certification a couple weeks ago. That means I can dance those figures on a quiet road at 15mph. It'll be quite a while before I'm out there on the highways with you guys! :D

[Lucrezia]

Hi all.

Back to the topic: learning Tango.

In Tango there are no certificates and no drivers license, as it is such an individual dance.

If you choose a tango-teacher you will have to check out how he/she dances, if you like his/her style and then, if he/she is able to explain it.

But for me there are also some do not's for tangotechers:
-trying to give the impression, you understand everything
-saying that your style is the one and only authentic style
-saying you can teach all the "secrets"
-emphathizing on steps instead of musicality, understanding the principles and feeling

A good tango-teacher does not have to know a lot of steps, he has to understand his own principles and has to be able to communikate them. A lot of the older reknown couples teaching tango all around the world, don't know a lot of steps. In fact, they dance in a quite simple way but have got a lot of understanding. I'm talking of people like Martha & Manolo, Kely & Facundo, Pupi...
Other couples may be able to give you great ideas for steps or techniques. Every tango-teacher has his ideas, his interpretation of tango and his specific knowledge. And during your career as a tango-dancer you'll learn from many, many different people. None of the great dancers or old Milongueros did only have one master!

Learning tango is a livelong process in which you slowly develop your own style and in which you have to watch out for everyone who can give you another piece of the big puzzle.
And as Juan Bruno, one of the old Milongueros once said: "Well, I'm now learning tango since 50 years."

That's it!

[pygmalion]

Hi Lucrezia!

Thanks for getting us back on the topic! :D

(I started a separate thread to talk about certifications. :D )

Thanks for the suggestions. Although the couple I'll be learning from do have a great reputation locally, I'm going to follow your advice and watch them dance, then listen to see if they can explaing things clearly, in a way I can understand.

Thank you. :D


Jenn

[will35]

I forgot to ask d nice if he thought the molinete looked familiar, maybe like one of those jewish hava nagila dances? Pretty interesting. Back, side, front, side.

[Lucrezia]

Hi Pygmalion,

how was your first Tango Lesson???

Lucrezia


By the way, why do we all use aliases? Melina :wink:

[pygmalion]

Thanks for remembering, Lucrezia! :D

It was good, but slow. The students were a mix of people who are new to Argentine Tango, and people completely new to dance. Still, we practiced walking (or should I say stalking? :D ) and ochos.

I'm really looking forward to next weekend, when I'll attend several workshops on Friday and Saturday. I think we'll get to make quite a bit of progress then. I'll keep you posted.

Jenn :D

[Sagitta]

So, spitfire, pygmailion, d nice all started taking lessons a couple months back. How is it going? How much progress have you guys made? Anyone else who has started learning AT?

I'm thinking of making AT one of my goals for the new year!! I've heard that it is incredibly difficult from many people. Any hints that you guys can pass on to make the learning process easier?

[ilovemusic]

As you can see in this forum some feel there is no basic step. But Argentine tango certainly does have a basic step, but it takes different forms depending on who you talk to. You can find a detailed discussion of one version of it with step diagrams at:

ilovemusic.com/argentine_tango.htm

Several highly respected teachers and performers from Argentina teach a basic step -- for example Carlos Gavito of Forever Tango fame.

The thing to realize about the basic step is that it is only a reference point for learning. When using the basic step, you are free to pause as long as you want at each strep -- or interject other sequences of steps. You can also mix and match various parts of the basic pattern. For example, you might do steps 1,2&3 and then finish with 6, 7 8. (tan-go-close). You might do steps 1 and 2 and then lead the follower into a series of pivoting steps (called ochos). After several ochos, you can then break out of the ochos and do steps 3, 4, 5 of the basic.

Argentine tango is highly improvisational. Much more so than ballroom dancing. Ideally, the leader thinks each step of the follower and leads her to take it. You can find a number of steps and practice exercises for Argentine tango at:

ilovemusic.com/argentine_tango_steps.htm

[will35]

Well, Sagitta didn't mention the basic step, and this is an old thread. We might as well visit it one more time, though. First, read this,

bridgetothetango.com/daniel/ar_basic.html

I need not remind you that Todaro taught choreography, not dancing. The first time I learned Argentine Tango, I learned the Todaro way just like most Americans. We were taken with the shows, and we took lessons from show dancers who had taken lessons from Todaro. Then, when I went to Buenos Aires, the milongueros thought I was pretty funny. They actually taught me how to walk in time with the music. It was fantastic. Most stage dancers learn like Americans; backwards. They learn choreography, then learn to dance in the milongas. Just ask them. Osvaldo Zotto, for example. There is nothing really wrong with the so called basic step. The only problem is that it does not really exist. I could teach a beginner leader to walk backwards three steps, then do a pirouette, then a handstand, and I could call it my basic step. It would not catch on only because my name is not Todaro.
I could also teach them the ssqqs basic step they do in American Tango, and call it the Argentine Tango basic step. But would it really be Argentine Tango?
The problem with any pattern is that it is rigid, and gives the beginner the idea that people actually use it to dance. If it is not misrepresented as something to do no matter what the music is doing or the other couples on the floor are doing, it is not detrimental.......maybe. Many dancers I know claim the basic held them back.

[will35]

I think that is the last time I shall ever write or speak about the basic step again in my life. It is just worn out.

[ilovemusic]

What makes Argentine tango different is that the basic step is not rigid. It is only a starting point -- a point of reference for dancing and teaching. It really does save a lot of time in teaching to refer to various points within the basic. The same is true for ALL dancs. The basic step is not the dance! Beginners often make the mistake of thinking that the rhythm and the pattern of the basic step must be used throughout a dance. For example, nightclub two step has the rhythm quick-quick slow. But that doesn't mean you have to do that through the entire dance.
ilovemusic.com/niteclub.htm
Instead of proclaiming that there is no basic step in tango, we can learn from the masters in Argentine.

One way to do this is to subscribe to tango-L and debate the issue For information on tango-L, you may want to see:

ilovemusic.com/Argentine_tango_email_list.htm
Other ways to learn:

Tour Benos Aires.
Take lessons from visiting dignitaries
Study videos made by master instructors from Argentina (in Spanish, with English translation) For info on such videos, you may want to visit ilovemusic.com/argvid.htm

[DanceMentor]

I appreciate everyone trying to show links that might be helpful to the reader, but please be careful about posting links to sites that are selling products.

It is better to name the site, but not use a link. The reason for this is there is no way to distiguish between someone who is trying to be helpful and someone that is hoping to increase sales by posting a link.

In other words, the only way to be impartial is to not allow links to pages that are diplaying products for sale, or to sites whose focus is sales of products.

I am the webmaster for 6 sites that sell dance products including some that would apply to this post. One of the sites I run is probably the biggest vendor in the United States to the partner dance business. I do not use the dance forums to sell products to these sites even though I would benefit greatly.

To make a long story short, I had to scrap the links.

I hope there are no hard feelings.

Lastly, please do not change the subject matter of this thread to discussing why we do/don't allow links. If you want to discuss it, PM me.

[will35]

Yes, this thread has become sort of a sales pitch.
Anyway, the basic step is what it is. I'm not insulting Don Carlos (Gavito) or anybody else when I say that they are first and foremost STAGE DANCERS. Their "basic step" is great to teach choreography, but it is terribly misused by many of the "dignitaries". It is the phrasebook way to learn a language. If you want to walk around Rome saying, "Dov'e il bagno?" it is fine. If you want to actually learn to speak, you try to get at what really makes a language.
Why do you suppose it is common for the beginners to believe that the basic step is the dance? I don't suppose you or any other teacher on earth has ever given that impression to a student?
You still have not explained why it is easier to create a basic step from a dance that does not have one the way Todaro did, than it is to just explain to beginners that the Tango is just walking to the music and turning every now and then along with the music and the other couples on the dance floor.

[will35]

By the way, ilovemusic, the name of the music in that videoclip of yours is "Adios Nonino". Piazzolla. Every time I talk to a beginner about tango, they mention that music or something like it.
A foot sandwich in Buenos Aires is called a "sanguchito" or "sangucho", a rock step is sometimes called a "cunita" or "hamaca", sometimes part of a larger group of things they call "cadencia" which is just the cadence (rythmic, not chord progression) in general, accenting a particular section just like rocking a baby to sleep. The thing with the leg wrap is a stage move, and I don't even know the name of it.
I was on Tango-L many years ago, but they always seem to argue the same thing about styles and so forth. It would be better if it were made of people who actually listened to the music and talked about it. Besides, it is a big email you get all the time and have to delete it. I prefer to talk here in DF.

[will35]

I have been thinking about this a bit more. It seems there are a few ways to learn Tango. Each way says a little about the students and teachers who learn that way.
There is the basic step/Todaro way. It is sometimes good for pointing out little techniques and so forth. On the other hand, so little of the Tango is technique (except stage stuff) that I don't like it very much. A person can learn to dance that way after many years of trying to improvise, but the style does not directly involve teaching the ability to improvise, so the student might practice for a long, long time and still only know a bunch of patterns. If you like it, it doesn't hurt me. I just think it is not the best way.
Another way is the new (nuevo) way. It is a very logical little system. It was invented by Salas, Naveira and some others. Salas is/was a lawyer and his approach shows it. The nuevo style is to break down the dance into the smallest possible elements so that in just a short time a student is familiar with almost the entire world of social tango. The only problem is that it takes a person a long, long time to actually put what he has in his head into action. It is at once comprehensive, useful, and daunting.
Then, there is the grassroots way. If you ask a milonguero to teach you, sometimes he might say, "Watch this." and do something spectacular until you are able to imitate it. If you cannot get it, he might even lead you through it whether you are a man or woman. He'll put his hands on you to make sure it is right. He might tell you to just go away if you keep asking him to teach you ganchos and fancy turns. He'll always tell you what he thinks you should learn first. Normally that is how to walk. He might even be uncomfortable being called a "teacher". He might tell you that the only way to teach is by example. He probably learned practicing with boys his age when he was young. He expects the student to learn the same way; by practice. He knows every recording of every orchestra ever made. He was there listening to DiSarli live, probably before we were born. He thinks the music is the most important part of the dance, so you must listen.
Of course, there are teachers and students who use a mixture of all those styles of teaching. I don't apologize if I seem to prefer one method over the other. I have experienced all three in one way or another. I have learned from all three.

[Sagitta]

Okay I'm planning on signing up for a month long group class in beginner AT. Should be interesting experience. Spitfire, dnice and Pygmalion...How have your AT classes gone? made good progress? Do you do AT now?

[looyenyeo]

If it helps any, over the years I've changed the way I present the 8-step basic (with dreaded back-step). It used to be the first thing I taught.

Now I teach how to take two consecutive steps as a basic element, then string them together into a forward and backward walk.

Then I teach the 8-step emphasizing it as a "case-study", applying the principles of the walks in it.

The student then learns the principles of line i.e. inside-inside, outside-outside; how to lead/follow them, and the cross. Again I get my students to apply this in the case study.

We then break the case study apart (modularise it) and link them together in different order with walks.

Developing the theme further, we address the sidewards steps, and principles of single-foot pivots - giving rise to giros, then much later ochos. I find that learning giros first tends to make it easier for leads/follows to distinguish the difference in marcas between giros and ochos.

All the while, the students are building up a module vocabulary, learning how to lead/follow each, and how to link them intuitively. Ultimately, it negates the need for routines except as case studies.

Loo

[Sagitta]

What is the difference between giros and ochos?

[newbie]

In giros, the lady turns around the man, in ochos she stays in front of him.

[Sagitta]

Cool. I've tried out giros. Thanks newbie! :)

[bordertangoman]

Here's another thing that can make AT difficult for a leader. The dancers can dance on a different foot or the same foot. That is, left for leader and left for follower. That is illegal and unheard of in most dances. It gives it a lot of variety, especially with the pivots. Let's imagine that both dancers are on the right foot. The leader wants to move to his left. The follower's weight is on her right foot. How can she move? She pivots. Maybe that is why AT is full of what people call ochos.
I've known a lot of people who were pretty good at ballroom and just didn't get AT. Then, I've known some people who were good at ballroom, took one authentic AT class, and never danced ballroom again. I've never really met anybody anywhere in between. What do you think?

well I saw someone watlzing to an tango vals at a milonga and I would love to know how to waltz ( but knowing me I would incorporate waltz steps into tango :evil:

[Sagitta]

Okay this brings up another question in my mind. I've started learning a couple AT tango walks/steps. I guess I would do these when tango songs are played. What do I do when vals or milongas are played? Same steps, or are there different steps?

[newbie]

I do the same steps on tangos and waltzes. First because I don't know specific waltz steps, and then because I can't tell a waltz from a
tango.

[Sagitta]

I went to the AT practica yesterday night and I'm beginning to learn the differences between tangos, milongas, vals etc. A milonga seems to have a basic underlying beat that is similar to American tango, but a lot faster. They tend to be faster then Argentine tangos. The vals seem to beadapted from waltz, but they are a lot faster. There seems to be some sort of beat there but I haven't got it yet.

If any of you dfers with AT experience can help flesh out this primitive understanding it would be much appreciated.

[Sagitta]

I've known a lot of people who were pretty good at ballroom and just didn't get AT. Then, I've known some people who were good at ballroom, took one authentic AT class, and never danced ballroom again. I've never really met anybody anywhere in between. What do you think?

I think that I would like to prove you wrong. Let's see where I am in a year or two. :)

I do the same steps on tangos and waltzes. First because I don't know specific waltz steps, and then because I can't tell a waltz from a tango.

What do you mean by this? :? Have you tried listening to AT music and differentiating between the two? What about milonga and tango? That's my first instinct now...to learn what the different songs are, and also differences between songs with a style such as take tangos. I just was shown today the dramtic difference between dancing a tango by "Orquesta de Oswald Puglieses" and by "Orquesta de Juan D'Arienzo". The latter is music that encourages pauses, the former more stepping etc. In a way this is unfortunate because my technique and dancing skill is way inadequate to express my knowledge of the dance and appreciation for musicality. :( Isn't there a saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :wink: :)

[bordertangoman]

Vals is stepped on every third beat and allows for more turns, rather than the qqs in waltz. The music is essentially the same _ I saw someone watlzing at a milonga.

Milonga beat is 1 pause 2-3-4 very quick

[Sagitta]

Vals is stepped on every third beat and allows for more turns, rather than the qqs in waltz. The music is essentially the same _ I saw someone watlzing at a milonga.

Milonga beat is 1 pause 2-3-4 very quick

Thanks for the info. However, I thought normal waltz was qqq? :?

[Sagitta]

Okay. I'm an info. hound. I was doing a little web browsing on various things AT and came across some great advice on AT, dancing it etc.

http://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_0.html What I like about this is the concepts presented. One that AT can be broken down into two step segments, that you don't need much to go to a milonga, about the solu of tango, about walking when ready....Lots of big and little things that I can re-appreciate what I've been taught in my last two beginner lessons and the workshops this past weekend. Even the suggestion on how to amke sure that one does not fall into the rut of just doing the D8CB!! :)

Even better is this (http://home.att.net/~larrydla/sixty_second_tango.html). :)

Just thought I would share as I know that there are quite a few dfers who have dabbled in AT. :)

[Sagitta]

Another tip I got today. I started using my arms to lead ochos etc. Instead of pressing inwards, make your frame big, while turning your body. That kills the tendancy to use the arms to lead and encourages upper body leading. Made a difference straight away. If you guys know of any other hints please pass them my way.
The AT people that I know are so friendly. :D A lot friendlier then the swing, and salsa communities. Actually zydeco / cajun Ithaca area people are pretty close...but I know them a little more then the AT people. They have made me feel really wlecome. I've been positive, upbeat, enthusiatic and eager too, so I'm sure that this has helped. :) Is this common elsewhere? That AT people are this friendly, even at milongas? :? The way other people have talked about it I expected worse!!! There isn't this eye glance and wink, or whatever elaborate system talked about in another thread to ask ladies to dance. Pretty straight forward. Or perhaps it is because I know a few people. Hmmm!! can't be as even strangers have been really friendly to me! I'm a little bewildered, but I'm feeling the love, so that is good, right?

[newbie]

These sequences where we're not stepping together are indeed challenging.
As a leader, the most difficult step for me is this one: we're in position for the "one" of the basic, facing each other, my weight on left foot, woman's weight on right foot, and (instead of the "one" of the basic) I open my chest to my right, while staying on my left foot, trying to make the woman do a side step on her left with her left foot, and put her weight and this left foot.
It seems a very simple step, but no woman can follow it. They resist the lead with all the strength they have and wait for me to go on my right foot before they go on their left.
Of course, I bet good leaders could lead this easily with any follower.

[bordertangoman]

These sequences where we're not stepping together are indeed challenging.
As a leader, the most difficult step for me is this one: we're in position for the "one" of the basic, facing each other, my weight on left foot, woman's weight on right foot, and (instead of the "one" of the basic) I open my chest to my right, while staying on my left foot, trying to make the woman do a side step on her left with her left foot, and put her weight and this left foot.
It seems a very simple step, but no woman can follow it. They resist the lead with all the strength they have and wait for me to go on my right foot before they go on their left.
Of course, I bet good leaders could lead this easily with any follower.

The lead for a sidestep for the follower when you aint doing one yourself is tricky. You need you signal intention. An exaggerated technique is bend the supporting knee and lower yourself a touch this signals a longer step than normal, you start it the follower moves then you don't transfer your weight. The lead you describe would invite her to pivot then sidestep as if beginning a molinete. a straight sidestep would require a feint to your right as I have described.

You could practice alternating between weight changes without moving position and doing sidesteps then throw in an unexpected sidestep lead.

[Sagitta]

Someone who has been doing AT for 4 years and is good asked me to guess how many beginner level classes he has taken. I came up with 20-50. He said 100!! Just the basics of the 4/5 different types of steps, tango walking....Just as in other dances in AT it seems the more time you spend on the fundamentals the better you become. What has been your experience? hmmm...I wonder if I should take the beginner AT class again? Probably skip it this time and catch the next series... :)

[bordertangoman]

Someone who has been doing AT for 4 years and is good asked me to guess how many beginner level classes he has taken. I came up with 20-50. He said 100!! Just the basics of the 4/5 different types of steps, tango walking....Just as in other dances in AT it seems the more time you spend on the fundamentals the better you become. What has been your experience? hmmm...I wonder if I should take the beginner AT class again? Probably skip it this time and catch the next series... :)

I did all the beginners classes twice and even then I think it was six months before I was dancing and 18 months before I was competent. Then suddenly you begin to make leaps - balance and posture improves so you become more solid and this helps your lead. I think there is the urge to get to the fancy moves before you really can dance the basics. Now I know the level of communication between leader and follower is paramount. Leading takes longer to learn because you have to get it all to work together.- listening to the music, interpretation, plannning a couple of steps ahead, responding to your partner, balance, anticipation, reaction, rhythm. (And this is just to get to the milonga!)

[DancePoet]

My first class was earlier this afternoon.
Spitfire, I realize your first lesson was quite a ways back.

I was wondering if you are still taking lessons :?:

Have you found a nice balance between enjoying AT and your opther dance activitees :?:

I've taken many At lessons over the past year, and I'm still dancing ballroom, too. I enjoy doing both, and plan to continue learning more of each. :D

[salsamale]

Any updates on AT learning experiences?

[Stillharbor]

I LOVE Argentine Tango!! The smooth motion is wonderful. It's a wonderful dance to a person like me. I learn by associating patterns with the forms of the steps. When my partner leads, I realize what pattern he's doing and assume what his next step is going to be. Unfortunately, I'm not always right...(gasp!) Can you tell I need to work on patience?.... AT makes me WAIT for the lead instead of rushing into the next. It's helped me with all the other dances I've been learning.

[newbie]

I LOVE Argentine Tango!! The smooth motion is wonderful. It's a wonderful dance to a person like me. I learn by associating patterns with the forms of the steps. When my partner leads, I realize what pattern he's doing and assume what his next step is going to be. Unfortunately, I'm not always right...(gasp!) Can you tell I need to work on patience?.... AT makes me WAIT for the lead instead of rushing into the next. It's helped me with all the other dances I've been learning.

When taking a step the leader is usually already thinking about the next one or the next ones, and what you call assuming might well be actually perceiving what he's intending next. Leading a side step with the idea of moving forward on next step and leading a side step with the idea of moving backwards will feel different for the follower.

[Zoopsia59]

Pretty good; I see now where it certainly does not have any structured pattern. I take it that the man can use his own innovations?

Absolutely! That's where the fun starts!

But beginner leaders usually need to start with some simple preset patterns until they learn the mechanics of leading. The patterns taught should just be a way to get people moving so that you can work on HOW they move. (Its hard to teach statuary to dance)

So there is a basic pattern that many teachers use some variation of with beginners. But if the teacher is any good, the pattern itself will be less important than the lead & follow and understanding the rhythm.

Quite a few teachers will start with walking and some teachers will just do walking for quite awhile before teaching anything else. I personally dont' think this works very well. For one thing, it takes YEARS to master the walk. People won't keep taking lessons that long if they never get to do anything "fun".

The teacher should emphasize that the student should ALWAYS be working on the walk, but make sure there is enough other stuff to keep people interested and motivated, and to allow them a sense of success. If I had to feel successful at the walk before I learned anything else, I would have given up tango over 3 years ago, because I STILL haven't mastered it.

Students have to feel that they've accomplished something at fairly frequent intervals, and if they feel they've accomplished nothing for an extended period, they're going to quit and take up something more rewarding. After all, for most people starting out, its a HOBBY, not a vocation. Hobbies are supposed to be FUN, not frustrating.

[Zoopsia59]

How can she move? She pivots. Maybe that is why AT is full of what people call ochos.. ?

Ochos are the reason the follower is never on the "wrong foot" in AT. The leader can always fix it with an ocho (unless he's not able to improvise and alter what he planned to lead). I think thats one reason you see alot of ochos.

But the main reason you see so many of them is that they get taught early on and emphasized so much. Sometimes its the only "fancy" step the leader (or the follwer) knows. Its a shame that so few people do them really well considering how many people do them alot. I think it gets taught TOO early. Its not a simple move for either partner, but it is a great way to teach some important fundamentals. Too often though it gets taught as a "step" rather than a principle.

[dchester]

Ochos are the reason the follower is never on the "wrong foot" in AT. The leader can always fix it with an ocho (unless he's not able to improvise and alter what he planned to lead). I think thats one reason you see alot of ochos.

But the main reason you see so many of them is that they get taught early on and emphasized so much. Sometimes its the only "fancy" step the leader (or the follwer) knows. Its a shame that so few people do them really well considering how many people do them alot. I think it gets taught TOO early. Its not a simple move for either partner, but it is a great way to teach some important fundamentals. Too often though it gets taught as a "step" rather than a principle.
Can you summarize the principle that you are referring to?

[bordertangoman]

I think it gets taught TOO early. Its not a simple move for either partner, but it is a great way to teach some important fundamentals.

I don't agree; doing ochos well takes time and practice to develop the muscle tone and balance as well as being able to follow the lead. It is important to start early.

as an analogy: you wouldn't learn to play the saxophone by NOT blowing it just because you have to develop your embouchure to control the sound coming from the control of the reed.

[Zoopsia59]

I spent the time learning how to stand, walk (forward, back, and open), and ochos (forward and back) and given an exercise... um... "Molero"? I don't remember the name, but it was essentially walking around a chair using the open step and ochos.
.

molinete'? Giro?

[Zoopsia59]

I forgot to ask d nice if he thought the molinete looked familiar, maybe like one of those jewish hava nagila dances? Pretty interesting. Back, side, front, side.

The Molinete is simply a grapevine that revolves around a center. So its very much like the grapevine patterns of many folk dances.

[Zoopsia59]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. To me, a dance certification is like a drivers' license. The certification does document that you have certain minimum skills, but that's when you start learning to teach or to dance, not when you're done.

The day I got my drivers' license, I could not drive, but I had demonstrated that I had the minimum skills so I could be let loose on the road ( a quiet road, at 15 mph :lol: ).

Same thing when I got my bronze ISTD certification a couple weeks ago. That means I can dance those figures on a quiet road at 15mph. It'll be quite a while before I'm out there on the highways with you guys! :D

An interesting correlary is the use of the term "masterpiece". People always refer to an artist's greatest work as his masterpiece.

But the Master piece was actually the work of art created to end apprenticeship and transition to Master. Hopefully the artist would still do even better stuff after that as his career went on! The idea that one's greatest artistic achievement occurred when one was still an apprentice, and one hasn't been able to top it since is pretty depressing for an artist if you think about it...

[Zoopsia59]

I'm going to follow your advice and watch them dance, then listen to see if they can explaing things clearly, in a way I can understand.


The 2nd thing is more important the the first. Think about the great figure skating coaches in the world. If you only took lessons from someone who could actually DO a quadruple jump, you'd miss out on every one of them!

One of my favorite tango teachers has developed a serious problem in his back. He is no longer as smooth in performance or social dancing as he used to be. But he's still one on the best teachers out as far as I'm concerned.

So don't let the flashiest dancers impress you as teachers. Its a totally different skill. If you watch them dance, look instead for connection, elegance in simple moves, the ability to lead or follow unskilled partners, precision, balance, etc. That shows the dancer knows the importance of emphasizing basic technique.

And if your teacher doesn't get truly, genuinely, sincerely excited about your progress, ditch them and find someone else. Many tango teachers are just trying to earn a living between performances. They don't actually LOVE teaching for its own sake.

[Zoopsia59]

Hi all.

A lot of the older reknown couples teaching tango all around the world, don't know a lot of steps. In fact, they dance in a quite simple way but have got a lot of understanding.
And as Juan Bruno, one of the old Milongueros once said: "Well, I'm now learning tango since 50 years."

That's it!

Someone relayed to me a story that Omar Vega tells. He says (filtered through my foggy memory):

A beginner dancer does 5 steps. A good dancer does 10 steps. A great dancer does 20 steps. A profffesional dancer does 50 steps. A true milonguero does 5 steps. (but you never notice)

[Zoopsia59]

I just noticed that the posts I've been responding to are YEARS old. Since the thread was at the top of the list when I logged on and it was unfamiliar to me, I thought it was a new thread.I was wondering how it could have gotten 4 pages long in only a day. oops.

[Zoopsia59]

Can you summarize the principle that you are referring to?

The principle is what happens in the body rather than where the feet go. Its all about controlling transfer of weight, reaching, pivoting (unless you are doing them linearly) etc. They are actually very hard to master.

I'm always surprised at the number of followers who don't realize that they should be able to do them alone. And too often I see followers lifting their foot and placing it in a mincing step almost under themselves (learning to actually reach back and walk backwards needs to come first!).

Another common problem (that I had myself rather badly) is penduluming back and forth rather than truly commiting the to the weight change. (more common on back ochos) Not to mention the falling backwards away from the leader, the miniscule reaching, the "auto-ocho'ers"... I could go on.

I really think this is too much for someone to think about in the 2nd lesson (and I've even seen them taught in the FIRST!). But when they start doing them that soon, they develop many bad habits to break or get the impression that they "know" ochos when they've only scratched the surface.

Traveling linear (serpentine) ochos in close embrace are not as fraught with pitfalls and are easier to teach early on. To me, figure 8 ochos in place might be better taught as stage 2 of learning them the other way first. Another way to get followers to learn them better is to have them do ochos at a ballet barre without a leader. Then they might be more aware of the pendulum effect and whether they are falling away from the partner.

[Zoopsia59]

I don't agree; doing ochos well takes time and practice to develop the muscle tone and balance as well as being able to follow the lead. It is important to start early.

as an analogy: you wouldn't learn to play the saxophone by NOT blowing it just because you have to develop your embouchure to control the sound coming from the control of the reed.

I don't agree that ochos are the equivalent of blowing air throw a wind (or brass) instrument. That would be walking. Ochos are more the equivalent of starting fingering chords.

And when I say "too early" I mean that ochos are not material for the first few lessons. I'm not saying people need to wait months or years for them. Maybe they can be introduced fairly early, but only if there is much emphasis on the things ochos teach you on their own rather than ochos as a part of a step pattern.

[Peaches]

I disagree. I don't think they need to be delayed that long. But I do think they are very very difficult to master. I'm still struggling with them.

[Zoopsia59]

I disagree. I don't think they need to be delayed that long. But I do think they are very very difficult to master. I'm still struggling with them.

How long is "that long"? I said that I didn't think they needed to wait months, but that they weren't material for the first lesson or 2. I've known people who only teach walking for months (I dont' agree with that either). And I've seen plenty of followers who are totally awkward for at least the first hour or 2 by actually having to walk backwards at all. (Most of the people in my area did NOT come to AT from Ballroom or any other dance background)

I would teach a molinete before I'd teach ochos. You get some of the same concepts but without the added difficulty of changing direction back and forth, and pivoting on every step. After molinte's are introduced, then ochos are an expansion of the same concepts, but requiring even more control due to not having the side steps in between each pivot.

Ochos are hard to lead properly (the leader always ends up transfering the follower's weight when he shifts his own, but since the follower already knows "her step" she stays on one foot as a beginner) and they are hard to control as a follower (especially figure 8 back ochos). I think introducing them as almost the first step is why so many followers become auto-ocho'ers, so few leaders learn to lead them properly until much later (and they are resistant to going back and relearning "beginner stuff" which makes it take even LONGER) and so many people end up dancing in place when they are beginners.

Or maybe its just because people aren't warned up front that just because they got ochos in lesson 3, don't think they have mastered them for quite awhile. Or maybe the problem is too many teachers who teach them early and then move on to more steps without correcting all the inevitable mistakes and sloppiness in those early ochos.

Traveling serpentine ochos are a better place to start, but my partner is the ONLY person I've ever seen teach them first. In fact, he's one of only a few people I've ever seen teach them AT ALL. (but he's in good company with Tete')

[Peaches]

How long is "that long"? I said that I didn't think they needed to wait months, but that they weren't material for the first lesson or 2. I've known people who only teach walking for months (I dont' agree with that either). And I've seen plenty of followers who are totally awkward for at least the first hour or 2 by actually having to walk backwards at all. (Most of the people in my area did NOT come to AT from Ballroom or any other dance background)My mistake. I read it as you advocating for waiting several months. Well...in this case (the correct one, that is) I agree. How 'bout them apples! :D And I agree with you, as well, that something besides just walking needs to be taught in the beginning, if only to keep people interested.

I would teach a molinete before I'd teach ochos. You get some of the same concepts but without the added difficulty of changing direction back and forth, and pivoting on every step. After molinte's are introduced, then ochos are an expansion of the same concepts, but requiring even more control due to not having the side steps in between each pivot.

Ochos are hard to lead properly (the leader always ends up transfering the follower's weight when he shifts his own, but since the follower already knows "her step" she stays on one foot as a beginner) and they are hard to control as a follower (especially figure 8 back ochos). I think introducing them as almost the first step is why so many followers become auto-ocho'ers, so few leaders learn to lead them properly until much later (and they are resistant to going back and relearning "beginner stuff" which makes it take even LONGER) and so many people end up dancing in place when they are beginners.

Or maybe its just because people aren't warned up front that just because they got ochos in lesson 3, don't think they have mastered them for quite awhile. Or maybe the problem is too many teachers who teach them early and then move on to more steps without correcting all the inevitable mistakes and sloppiness in those early ochos.

Traveling serpentine ochos are a better place to start, but my partner is the ONLY person I've ever seen teach them first. In fact, he's one of only a few people I've ever seen teach them AT ALL. (but he's in good company with Tete')I don't know. (And this time I read it twice to make sure!) I can only speak from my own experience, but I think molinetes are much harder, particularly the back step. Of course, like all things, mine still need a ton of work. (Is there anything I do that doesn't??? *sigh*)

I think anyone who's truly serious will realize, probably pretty early on, that the basics will always need working on. It's a pretty naieve student who thinks that getting them early and moving on equals mastery. Maybe there's a lot more naieve students than I realize, though.

Of course, I can't speak to the difficulty of leading them, or of learning to dance them with a beginning leader.

Someone else who leads crossed-back ochos?!?! I have GOT to meet your partner! I think my teacher is one of the few who teach it, as well. God knows I never have them led in a milonga. (It kind of makes me sad how many things I work on in lessons that I never get a chance to really use...and I'm talking about fully leadable, socially danceable stuff, too.)

[Zoopsia59]

Someone else who leads crossed-back ochos?!?! I have GOT to meet your partner! I think my teacher is one of the few who teach it, as well. God knows I never have them led in a milonga. (It kind of makes me sad how many things I work on in lessons that I never get a chance to really use...and I'm talking about fully leadable, socially danceable stuff, too.)

Well when we all get together for the dance forum milonga, I'll introduce you. He'll be thrilled to find someone else who actually KNOWS ochos that way. Everyone around here thought he was nuts until Tete came to town... (I love them; they really show off the woman's legs better than almost anything!)

[Peaches]

Well when we all get together for the dance forum milonga, I'll introduce you. He'll be thrilled to find someone else who actually KNOWS ochos that way. Everyone around here thought he was nuts until Tete came to town... (I love them; they really show off the woman's legs better than almost anything!)So...when's this D-F milonga??? Oh, right, we're all turning up on Angel's doorstep one morning, asking for crepes and a place to crash and then dancing the night away out in his beautiful neck of the woods.

...or, failing that, I suppose I could take a road trip. Planning on visiting our illustrious national capital anytime soon? No? Eh...prolly too much to hope for anyhow... :)

[Steve Pastor]

"crossed-back" aka serpentine aka traveling (my own term) ochos are pretty common here in Portland, especially in "close embrace".

Last Sunday one of the two women who I danced with, both of whom I assumed to be not from around these parts, commented that "everyone" or "most people" here (Portland) seem to dance "close embrace".
The one woman danced well with me, although I would lose track of her on occasion (unclear axis, indeterminent placement of weight, etc) . Still, Big smiles on both sides.
With the other woman I ended up in an open embrace. Then she started pulling out what to me were odd things that I hadn't led. ("Long ago" I decided to concentrate on things that most people can follow.)
"How do I lead that", I asked. "Oh, there is no lead. It is show tango", she replied.
They both had accents that I couldn't quite place.
Wonder who they were?

(Now, let's look into the ole can o worms.)

One reason I don't lead the ochos you both describe more often is that they tend to be done almost by rote. Just like with the cruzada, there is an absence of tension and continuity in the movement. I think this is the same reason I don't "just walk".
It's a vicious cycle.

Oh, and Peaches, I feel your pain about not being able to use things you've learned. I was sort of talking to someone about that on Sunday. Deciding to no longer take lessons because you already know way more than you can use (my choice) in social dance, and that learning more and getting better will make you even more discontented with the way other people dance, comes across as sacrilege.

[Peaches]

"crossed-back" aka serpentine aka traveling (my own term) ochos are pretty common here in Portland, especially in "close embrace".OK, that's it, I'm moving to Portland! And, added bonus, my BIL & SIL & nieces & nephews are there! Too bad it's on the west coast, though.

With the other woman I ended up in an open embrace. Then she started pulling out what to me were odd things that I hadn't led. ("Long ago" I decided to concentrate on things that most people can follow.)
"How do I lead that", I asked. "Oh, there is no lead. It is show tango", she replied.Oh...nice... (Note: sarcasm.)

Ya know, I always try my best to follow as led. I know I should start branching out and adding to things, but...wow...to go into stage stuff...wow... I hope I don't do that to guys. I don't think I do. And, while I object to being taught on the floor (and, so far, I have yet to find a guy who decided to teach me who was as good as me...and I'm not being conceited), there are times when I'd hope someone would bring me up short when I do something unled. Not in a milonga, but if I could get to a practica.

Oh, and Peaches, I feel your pain about not being able to use things you've learned. I was sort of talking to someone about that on Sunday. Deciding to no longer take lessons because you already know way more than you can use (my choice) in social dance, and that learning more and getting better will make you even more discontented with the way other people dance, comes across as sacrilege.I guess I just take the opposite viewpoint...I'll keep taking lessons because I want to use that stuff, and I need to practice with someone to get better. (Granted, I should practice on my own, but practicing with a partner does become a requisite at some point.) I figure, one of these days one of the really good dancers will ask me to dance...and when that happens, I want to be able to hold my own and hold up my head at the end of the tanda. So far, one or two have asked, and the lessons have paid off. One of these days I'll be good... *sigh*

[Steve Pastor]

It's a bit odd, because at first she was apologizing for not being able to follow me very well. In a situation like that, I do my best to put my partner at ease. She may have been a bit put off, because I was the one who chose to go to the open embrace. But she was was "close" without enough "apilado like" presence for me to lead. (unlike her friend? who gave me more to work with) Open worked much better.

She was feeling pretty comfortable, I think, to start doing things that were unled. She was very aware of the fact that we were at a practica, and in fact mentioned it.
No problem.
She MAY have just been letting me off the hook by saying that there is no way to lead what she had done. Just like leading an "interrupted momentum" gancho, there are a lot of things that have to line up for it to work. In fact, I tried one with her because she was staying close to me in her giro. I think I did not stay upright, as you should, because she went backwards over her center instead of staying upright and letting the momentum go into her leg.
Anyhow, other than dancing with someone who I really mesh with, this is one of my favorite kinds of experience; the chance encounter with someone new who you really enjoy dancing with. And I guess I've always enjoyed the informality of the practica.

[Ampster]

Someone else who leads crossed-back ochos?!?!

Yes...? :raisebro:

[Peaches]

Yes...? :raisebro:Ooh la la!!! (But you've known for a long time that you were on my list of Leaders To Dance With.)

[bastet]

How long is "that long"? I said that I didn't think they needed to wait months, but that they weren't material for the first lesson or 2. I've known people who only teach walking for months (I dont' agree with that either). And I've seen plenty of followers who are totally awkward for at least the first hour or 2 by actually having to walk backwards at all. (Most of the people in my area did NOT come to AT from Ballroom or any other dance background)

I would teach a molinete before I'd teach ochos. You get some of the same concepts but without the added difficulty of changing direction back and forth, and pivoting on every step. After molinte's are introduced, then ochos are an expansion of the same concepts, but requiring even more control due to not having the side steps in between each pivot.

Ochos are hard to lead properly (the leader always ends up transfering the follower's weight when he shifts his own, but since the follower already knows "her step" she stays on one foot as a beginner) and they are hard to control as a follower (especially figure 8 back ochos). I think introducing them as almost the first step is why so many followers become auto-ocho'ers, so few leaders learn to lead them properly until much later (and they are resistant to going back and relearning "beginner stuff" which makes it take even LONGER) and so many people end up dancing in place when they are beginners.

Or maybe its just because people aren't warned up front that just because they got ochos in lesson 3, don't think they have mastered them for quite awhile. Or maybe the problem is too many teachers who teach them early and then move on to more steps without correcting all the inevitable mistakes and sloppiness in those early ochos.

Traveling serpentine ochos are a better place to start, but my partner is the ONLY person I've ever seen teach them first. In fact, he's one of only a few people I've ever seen teach them AT ALL. (but he's in good company with Tete')

I tend to agree with you. In-line/traveling/straight/crossed-back (pick your favorite term) ochos are easier to start with, less dissociation to deal with (none, in fact!) takes some of the heat off and they and the lead and follow mostly has to negotiate the close embrace. In terms of teaching, it's one of those things you'd probably want to guage how fast the class was picking ideas up...a class full of retired people who've never danced before probably won't move a the same pace as a class full of college kids in the same boat.

We tend to use these kinds of ochos a lot becasue we dance a lot of Milonguero style when we're out dancing and that sort of cancels out a good portion of the dissociation. I actually prefer the straight line ochos myself for general dancing and if I can lead them (and i am just average when it comes to leading) then just about anyone should be able to work them out! ;)

I think pivoting ochos are best left a little while, and I do think a lot of bad habits start up because of them, probably on both parts. For instance, auto-pivoting or auto dissociation. A follow that doesn't learn that the amount of dissociation can be led may have a tendancy to "auto-dissociate" even if no dissociation is being led.

[bdcochran]

Do I understand correctly that there is no basic pattern?

There are basic movements like in all dance. There are some combinations of movement that you could call basic patterns.

I understand that it can be tricky to learn. What is the aspect that makes this so? __________________

There are four styles or schools of tango movement.

Most serious students train using a chair as a partner.

a. In a sense, you are dancing on one foot. In ballroom, you are dancing between the steps.
b. you must take equal steps in your movements - front and back and to the side. If you "cheat" or your muscles are not developed, then you will hit the chair (your partner).

c. the dancing is done by a series of straight line movements. you face the chair as you go by. this really calls for working and building up muscle groups that are not normally used in life.

d. your movement around the chair is at the same level and not bouncing.

e. your intake and outflow of oxygen is coordinated with your movement.

f. you pivot at the four corners of the chair.

g. if you are a lead/man, you will be dancing backwards a fair amount of time.

h. when you become very good, you make the movements around the chair by extending your hands to a partner and you move in sync. this means that leaders cannot use upper body strength to manipulate the follower.

i. you must always allow your follower to do her resolution of the movement before commencing another movement.

j. the discipline is such that you should be able to isolate the movements in a pattern and freeze as you go through.

k. sometimes, the movement requires that one partner take one or more steps while the other partner takes no step.

l. the follower is allowed to do embellishments or expressions in her dance that are not permitted in ballroom dance.
j. you need to build up multiple muscle groups not used in normal walking, general ballroom or gymnastics.

[Ampster]

bdc, copied your post, and my answer to your quandries below (In Blue)...

bdcochran: Do I understand correctly that there is no basic pattern?
Ampster: There is supposed to be an 8-count basic, and a 6-count basic. However, the better you get, the sooner these dispappears from your repertoire. AT becomes dynamic and improvisational and this "basic pattern" ceases to exists.

Once you learn how to "Walk" (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=26250) properly is when IMO, this basic pattern dissapears. It lasts but a few lessons.

bdcochran: There are basic movements like in all dance. There are some combinations of movement that you could call basic patterns.

Ampster: No, not really. Like I said it is more dynamic than just memorizing steps and patterns. Yes, you do stuff over-and over again. But, each one is different because of the different timing based on the music. Which, is in of itself is different.

bdcochran: I understand that it can be tricky to learn. What is the aspect that makes this so?

Ampster:
The non-existence of set patterns
The very dynamic and improvisational nature of the dance
The strict lead/follow relationship of AT. "Everything is your fault, good, bad, or otherwise"
Leading in the line of dance on a packed floor
The nature of AT music, where it can change rhythm several times in the same song
etc., etc., etc... (just to name a few)

bdcochran: There are four styles or schools of tango movement.

Ampster: The is a "Trifecta" in Argentine Tango, that you need to know in order dance them in a Milonga:

The difference here is the nature and rhythm of the music, which delivers a totally different feel to each

(1) Tango (In it's various interpretations/styles)
(1) Vals
(3) Milonga


(*Note:
Milonga is a dance. Milonga is also the name of the tango dance parties we all go to
*Note 1. When we mention Tango, were talking about ARGENTINE Tango. NOT Ballroom (American and/or International) Standard Tango-totally different dances derived from AT)


bdcochran: Most serious students train using a chair as a partner.

Ampster: Most serious students of Argentine Tango practice with a partner by taking the time and effort to take lessons and go to a Practica. NOT with a chair. Chairs do not know how to follow.


You might try reading this thread to start, for reference: Things_AT_Leaders_should_know (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=26766)

[Peaches]

BDCochran: My answers are in blue.

Do I understand correctly that there is no basic pattern?

There are basic movements like in all dance. There are some combinations of movement that you could call basic patterns.

There is what as known as the (Dreaded) 8-Count Basic. It is not, generally used for dancing purposes, but, instead, is a collection of the basic movements/steps in tango—back, side, forward outside partner, cross, forward in line, stationary weight change that have been strung together for (as I understand it) teaching purposes. It generally is not danced the same way that a basic in other dances can be.

On the question of combinations that you can call basic patterns, I’m going to disagree a bit with Ampster (welcome to the wonderful world of AT!). There are combinations of steps which are often put together, such as an ocho cortado, or molinete, or cadena. The key point with this, though, is that there isn’t a set timing for them, there’s no rule that says it must be preceded/followed by another pattern, done in only one direction or with a specified alignment, or that it must start or finish at a certain point. The key with AT is that pretty much anything can go to something else, since each step is complete by itself.

I understand that it can be tricky to learn. What is the aspect that makes this so?

Well, there’s no real codified syllabus, for a start. The timing is completely variable. Anything can precede or follow anything else. It’s completely lead and follow (unless you’re talking about show tango). There are threads upon threads upon posts dealing with this.

There are four styles or schools of tango movement.

Without knowing just what you mean by “styles” or “schools,” I’d say no. There are more. There’s canguengue, orillero, milonguero, salon, Nuevo, fantasia, and all kinds of other variations out there (Villa Urquiza) that I don’t know much about, if you’re talking about various traditions. If you mean manner of dancing, there’s shared axis (apilado), close embrace but on your own axis, there’s open embrace.

Or, there’s what Ampster mentioned, there’s the fact that Argentine Tango comprises three separate, but related dances: tango, vals, and milonga.

Most serious students train using a chair as a partner.

Never heard of this. I’ve seen chairs used in workshops, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone seriously practicing with a chair for an extended period of time.

I’d say that most serious students train via a combination of dancing by themselves (ochos and molinetes, especially, for balance, as well as specific exercises) and with a human partner.

a. In a sense, you are dancing on one foot. In ballroom, you are dancing between the steps.

Angel would have a lot to say about this. ;-)

I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but generally, yes. It’s rare to be split-weighted, but it can, and does, happen.

b. you must take equal steps in your movements - front and back and to the side. If you "cheat" or your muscles are not developed, then you will hit the chair (your partner).

Again, I don’t know what you mean. Do you have to take a step for each movement? No. Do all steps have to be the same size? No. Do the leader and follower have to take the same size steps? I’d say it varies depending on what you’re doing. I don’t know that it has so much to do with muscle development/lack thereof, but in leading and following ability.

c. the dancing is done by a series of straight line movements. you face the chair as you go by. this really calls for working and building up muscle groups that are not normally used in life.

Isn’t everything? I’m not sure how you can step from one place to another and end up curving it. As for facing the chair—I think it depends on the type of step/movement that you’re aiming for (the embrace can be varied). Generally, though, it’s probably a good starting point. I don’t know about building up muscle groups—it’s a remarkably low-impact dance.

[Peaches]

Part 2:

d. your movement around the chair is at the same level and not bouncing.

Bouncing is bad. You should, generally, be at the same level as your partner. But all movement does not have to be at the same level—there is/can be rise and fall in AT.

e. your intake and outflow of oxygen is coordinated with your movement.

Can be. Doesn’t have to be. Can help.

f. you pivot at the four corners of the chair.

Um…??? If you’re talking about a molinete…I guess…maybe… ???

g. if you are a lead/man, you will be dancing backwards a fair amount of time.

No.

h. when you become very good, you make the movements around the chair by extending your hands to a partner and you move in sync. this means that leaders cannot use upper body strength to manipulate the follower.

Manhandling your follower is pretty much always bad. I have no idea what you mean by the rest. You always move from, and lead from, your center. Arms do come into play, in some cases separate from the movement of the center, but it’s under specific conditions. Generally, you should be moving as one. And you’re not always going to be moving in sync.

i. you must always allow your follower to do her resolution of the movement before commencing another movement.

Generally, yes. Unless you’re deliberately interrupting her movement as a way to get her to do something else. I’ve heard volcadas described as a forward step that gets interrupted midway. *shrug* YMMV.

j. the discipline is such that you should be able to isolate the movements in a pattern and freeze as you go through.

Yes. This is what allows any step to lead to any other step.

k. sometimes, the movement requires that one partner take one or more steps while the other partner takes no step.

Yes.

l. the follower is allowed to do embellishments or expressions in her dance that are not permitted in ballroom dance.

Yes—if given the time, or if she can steal the time, or if she can fit them in. But the dance shouldn’t be interrupted for this. And there are a whole host of things that’s done in AT which can’t happen in ballroom...really, the two can’t be compared.

j. you need to build up multiple muscle groups not used in normal walking, general ballroom or gymnastics.

No. It’s a walking dance. Generally, if you can walk, you can tango. Having tried ballroom (and crashed and burned, incidentally), I’d say that BR takes MUCH more muscle development than AT.

[Peaches]

One other thing...where have you gotten some of these ideas?!?!

[bastet]

Strange questions....I had trouble sometimes following the line of thinking on them....and is it just me or do there seem to be a few "post and run" type things that are bound to cause controversy these last few days? The questions seem to be worded strangely, the posters only post once, and then no response is given (except for the regular DF'ers)....???

[Light Sleeper]

Strange questions....I had trouble sometimes following the line of thinking on them....and is it just me or do there seem to be a few "post and run" type things that are bound to cause controversy these last few days? The questions seem to be worded strangely, the posters only post once, and then no response is given (except for the regular DF'ers)....???

Yes I've noticed that for a while. Maybe it's because it's 'silly season'. I've noticed I'm getting tonnes more spam this past couple of weeks too. There could be several motivations for doing it - normally I avoid posting to those threads but I think a lot of sincere DF'ers get sucked in.

[Peaches]

Strange questions....I had trouble sometimes following the line of thinking on them....and is it just me or do there seem to be a few "post and run" type things that are bound to cause controversy these last few days? The questions seem to be worded strangely, the posters only post once, and then no response is given (except for the regular DF'ers)....???Good point. I hadn't really noticed that.

Then again, I've been so bored at work lately (please keep your fingers crossed that a job situation happens the way I want it to!), I'll answer to pretty much anything, just for the diversion of it.

[Zoopsia59]

j. you need to build up multiple muscle groups not used in normal walking, general ballroom or gymnastics.

No. It’s a walking dance. Generally, if you can walk, you can tango. Having tried ballroom (and crashed and burned, incidentally), I’d say that BR takes MUCH more muscle development than AT.

Not going into all the various points and the whole "chair" thing... I'll agree though that tango does take some muscle develpment that many average folks don't have. Its certainly more muscle than required for being the average couch potato. But its certainly not more muscle than is required for ballroom or gymnastics.

Actually its the SAME muscle development that so many movement forms SHOULD have... ie: strong core and abdominal muscles. Many people (raising hand... yes, me too) try to use every muscle in the body except the ones they should be using because the ones they should be using are so weak. Consequently, you get people who are tense where they should be relaxed and weak where they should be strong (ie: the core)

I disagree that its just walking, because first of all, most people dont' walk backwards much. Secondly, most people don't take a lot of side steps when they walk, and few people pivot on a dime when they turn a corner walking down the street. The transfer of weight in tango takes a level of control that simply isn't nessesary in regular everyday walking, especially if you are really reaching.

Many people step sorta under themselves when they walk, and lots of people walk with a slight waddle because they wouldn't be worried when walking down the street about passing through middle or brushing their knees. Tango isn't like fashion model runway walking, but it FEELS like that to some beginners whose normal everyday "tracks" for their 2 feet stay further apart than is appropriate for tango.

The other muscle group that is generally weak but can be of immeasurable use in tango are the adductors (abductors? dang, I always get the terms mixed up... The ones that you use to draw your thighs together against resistance, not the ones you use to open your thighs against resistance) These muscles help alot in creating the coordination and strength to collect and transfer weight completely and effortlessly (especially in side steps).

But again, you don't have to train these muscles to some strange extreme just for tango, it just helps if they are stronger than the average person, because the average person is typically very weak in both areas: core and inner thigh. You don't really need either of them to be strong to just walk down the street, so people aren't used to using them if they've never taken any dance or movement before..

[Peaches]

Not going into all the various points and the whole "chair" thing... I'll agree though that tango does take some muscle develpment that many average folks don't have. Its certainly more muscle than required for being the average couch potato. But its certainly not more muscle than is required for ballroom or gymnastics.

Actually its the SAME muscle development that so many movement forms SHOULD have... ie: strong core and abdominal muscles. Many people (raising hand... yes, me too) try to use every muscle in the body except the ones they should be using because the ones they should be using are so weak. Consequently, you get people who are tense where they should be relaxed and weak where they should be strong (ie: the core)

I disagree that its just walking, because first of all, most people dont' walk backwards much. Secondly, most people don't take a lot of side steps when they walk, and few people pivot on a dime when they turn a corner walking down the street. The transfer of weight in tango takes a level of control that simply isn't nessesary in regular everyday walking, especially if you are really reaching.

Many people step sorta under themselves when they walk, and lots of people walk with a slight waddle because they wouldn't be worried when walking down the street about passing through middle or brushing their knees. Tango isn't like fashion model runway walking, but it FEELS like that to some beginners whose normal everyday "tracks" for their 2 feet stay further apart than is appropriate for tango.

The other muscle group that is generally weak but can be of immeasurable use in tango are the adductors (abductors? dang, I always get the terms mixed up... The ones that you use to draw your thighs together against resistance, not the ones you use to open your thighs against resistance) These muscles help alot in creating the coordination and strength to collect and transfer weight completely and effortlessly (especially in side steps).

But again, you don't have to train these muscles to some strange extreme just for tango, it just helps if they are stronger than the average person, because the average person is typically very weak in both areas: core and inner thigh. You don't really need either of them to be strong to just walk down the street, so people aren't used to using them if they've never taken any dance or movement before..Good points, that I hadn't much thought about.

I think, though, that I'd make a distinction between developing those muscles (which brings to mind time spent in a gym) and learning to use them "properly" for AT. Not so much building up that's necessary (IMO), but training/retraining them, and letting that retraining become habit. *shrug*

Just my $0.02. Then again, maybe I've just gotten used to moving a certain way without ever thinking about "developing" those muscles.

[bastet]

Good point. I hadn't really noticed that.

Then again, I've been so bored at work lately (please keep your fingers crossed that a job situation happens the way I want it to!), I'll answer to pretty much anything, just for the diversion of it.


tee hee ... :D

[Zoopsia59]

I'd make a distinction between developing those muscles (which brings to mind time spent in a gym) and learning to use them "properly" for AT. Not so much building up that's necessary (IMO), but training/retraining them, and letting that retraining become habit. *shrug*

Just my $0.02. Then again, maybe I've just gotten used to moving a certain way without ever thinking about "developing" those muscles.

I agree. You don't have to "build" those muscles, you just have to learn to actually USE them. For some people using them at all will take some building. For most people who haven't used them, they have to learn to even talk to those muscles. For those people, you might as well tell them to wiggle their ears!

If someone doesn't even know how to access the muscle, or what it feels like to use it (especially the adductors) some sort of resistance exercise will make them feel what, where, and how those muscles work. But you don't have to spend hours at the gym weight training; you just have to get them to the ah-hah moment of "OH!!!! THAT muscle! NOW I feel it!"

[Angel HI]

I disagree that its just walking, because first of all, most people dont' walk backwards much. Secondly, most people don't take a lot of side steps when they walk, and few people pivot on a dime when they turn a corner walking down the street. The transfer of weight in tango takes a level of control that simply isn't nessesary in regular everyday walking, especially if you are really reaching. ..

You know, Zoops, that I usually agree with your posts close to 100%, and was ready to go tete a tete with you on this one, then you wrote....

You don't have to "build" those muscles, you just have to learn to actually USE them.

I am a firm proponent of the tango is based on walking concept. There isn't a mvoement in tango that isn't a natural, everyday movement. I agree completely, however, that many don't exercize or even perform everyday, narual movements correctly. Funny how many of us have really bizarre habits even in our normal walking movements. Once, these basics are adjusted, one can begin to expound upon them (reaching, exagerating, etc.) to become a good dancer (depending on the desired level of proficiency).

[Heather2007]

Funny how many of us have really bizarre habits even in our normal walking movements.

Yep. When people come up to me outside a dance studio/milonga and ask if I am a dancer, then I know something is not quite right in my everyday walking:rolleyes:

[dchester]

I am a firm proponent of the tango is based on walking concept. There isn't a mvoement in tango that isn't a natural, everyday movement. I agree completely, however, that many don't exercize or even perform everyday, narual movements correctly. Funny how many of us have really bizarre habits even in our normal walking movements. Once, these basics are adjusted, one can begin to expound upon them (reaching, exagerating, etc.) to become a good dancer (depending on the desired level of proficiency).
So basically, you are saying that it's based on everyday natural movements, as long as you are willing to change what's natural for you.

;)

[bordertangoman]

So basically, you are saying that it's based on everyday natural movements, as long as you are willing to change what's natural for you.

;)

I was going to say something similar; the only person who walks natural is my four year old (and she'd rather be carried most of the time!)

others are flat footed, slump backwards or forwards, walk like cowboys, ducks, soldiers.

In fact I usually notice a lady in the street if I think she has a nice 'tango' walk and its rare.

"Being natural is simply a pose." Oscar Wilde

[Heather2007]

...others are flat footed, slump backwards or forwards, walk like cowboys, ducks, soldiers.

Yes, and notice how the same applies even when dancing

[bordertangoman]

Yes, and notice how the same applies even when dancing

mind you duck walking is okay for milonga- ballet second position; it keeps your hips nice and stiff, especially for Trampera which should be danced as if you were Charlie Chaplin.

[bordertangoman]

Yes, and notice how the same applies even when dancing

but fortunatley no builders bum!!

[dancinrina]

Just wanted to chime in about the whole muscle thing. Look at a body builder and then take a look at a gymnast - then tell me, what's the difference? The difference is, body builders have no purpose other than bulging muscle mass. Gymnasts have a purpose to each and every muscle they develop. Same thing with this - if you just go to the gym and try to develop muscle mentioned earlier (Abducter, core, etc) it would be almost useless to dancing (IMO). They'd just be a bulging mass with no purpose. So, I think the best way to actually develop those muscles IS to dance. They strengthen with a purpose and will therefore never get too big for that "I'm on steriods" look - they'll just tone nicely.

[Heather2007]

Just wanted to chime in about the whole muscle thing. Look at a body builder and then take a look at a gymnast - then tell me, what's the difference? The difference is, body builders have no purpose other than bulging muscle mass. Gymnasts have a purpose to each and every muscle they develop. Same thing with this - if you just go to the gym and try to develop muscle mentioned earlier (Abducter, core, etc) it would be almost useless to dancing (IMO). They'd just be a bulging mass with no purpose. So, I think the best way to actually develop those muscles IS to dance. They strengthen with a purpose and will therefore never get too big for that "I'm on steriods" look - they'll just tone nicely.

Ha, ha, ha [clearing throat] - I'm an ex-competitive bodybuilder as well as ex-competitive gymnast (currently teaching) plus, ex-performing contemporary jazz ballet dancer/choreographer, I - er - would beg to differ with 'some' of the comments you made re. muscle development. Competitive bodybuilding is little more than showing off huge muscles - think of it as being dumped a huge amount of clay and then being given free range on what you do with it - it can remain as a huge lump or rather, it can be chiselled into something resembling a marble statue and requires huge amount of artistry in the way you show it off (come the evening when posing) and how one muscle group compliments the other through aestheticism, size and symmetry (during the day in front of the judges). And that whole "look I'm on steroids" look won't wash with the Judges if there isn't good A.S.S. Upper body strength (mainly in gymnastics) requires near enough the same amount of muscle-strength building as a bodybuilder - the differences being the protein-carb ratio - plus sets and reps (re. red fibre v. white fibre training). As a performing dancer esp. where balance, speed, lifts, turns, splits etc are concerned (granted not all dances)- the only way to develop strong muscles to help you perform such is through weight bearing resistance exercises - weights.

[Zoopsia59]

Ha, ha, ha [clearing throat] - I'm competitive ex-bodybuilder plus ex-competitive gymnast plus, ex-performing contemporary jazz ballet dancer/choreographer, I - er - would beg to differ with 'some' of the comments you made .

Not being a body builder, I can't comment much on what Heather wrote about it, but I would like to add that there is a huge difference between body building and weight training/ strength training/ resistance training (whichever term you want).

A large portion of American women are FAR too weak. I've read that even though the average weight gain in middle age has typically been only about 2lbs per year, the sad truth is that many lose 5 lbs of muscle and gain 7 lbs of fat. The average American fails to use many of his/her muscles in the average day, and certainly fails to use them to the extent of even maintaining strength much less building it.

It may be true that traditionally social tango needed no more strength than people had in their everyday lives. But people were stronger then! (and the salon dancing was simpler and than what people are trying to do at milongas here in the US)

Even women who go to the gym often fail to use sufficient weight on a machine to actually do them any good. When I go to the gym, and I'm not at all marine level strong or bulky or anything (and certainly nowhere near as strong as I was in my 20's) I ALWAYS have to increase the weight on any machine that I follow a woman on. For the most part, they are probably wasting their time and money if they are hoping for any of the benefits of strength training. (increased bone mass, increased metabolism, better muscle strength, stronger joints, etc, etc)

You cannot develop a muscle through dancing if you are not USING it when you dance. And if some middle aged non-dancer with little exercise or atheletics in their life decides to take up tango, the odds are that they won't ever have even FELT some of those muscles working to know how to use them.

Its easier to twist and wiggle to balance than to pull the adductors together. Its easier to tense your back, shoulders, & arms, stick out your butt, and lock your knees than it is to hold everything up with your deeper core muscles. People have no control or balance and they go home from a dance with a backache, and they don't know why because they aren't even aware that they have some very large muscles that are doing nothing while smaller muscles that they know how to access try to do all the work.

I certainly wouldn't claim that social tango dancers must go to the gym to "build" muscle. But if using your muscles properly is not a habit outside dance class, you're not going to use them IN the class when you have way too much else to think about.... unless the teachers emphasize that stuff and make students focus on it.

Besides, I don't know about other places, but in my area, people seem to really want to do flashier complicated moves. There is less emphasis on traditional social tango of simple walking and a closed embrace, and more emphasis on open embrace and lots of fancy leg work requiring strength, flexibility and superb balance. Tis far more athletic than walking, but quite a few of the people who take up the dance are not athletic at all. They haven't even enough basic strength to balance on one foot and still keep everything upright. They may be able to do simple milonguero walking type tango with whatever strength they have from daily life, but 99% of them want to do WAY more than that. They want to do Forever Tango. (figuratively, not literally)

[jennyisdancing]

You cannot develop a muscle through dancing if you are not USING it when you dance. And if some middle aged non-dancer with little exercise or atheletics in their life decides to take up tango, the odds are that they won't ever have even FELT some of those muscles working to know how to use them.

Its easier to twist and wiggle to balance than to pull the adductors together. Its easier to tense your back, shoulders, & arms, stick out your butt, and lock your knees than it is to hold everything up with your deeper core muscles. People have no control or balance and they go home from a dance with a backache, and they don't know why because they aren't even aware that they have some very large muscles that are doing nothing while smaller muscles that they know how to access try to do all the work.

I certainly wouldn't claim that social tango dancers must go to the gym to "build" muscle. But if using your muscles properly is not a habit outside dance class, you're not going to use them IN the class when you have way too much else to think about.... unless the teachers emphasize that stuff and make students focus on it.

Besides, I don't know about other places, but in my area, people seem to really want to do flashier complicated moves. There is less emphasis on traditional social tango of simple walking and a closed embrace, and more emphasis on open embrace and lots of fancy leg work requiring strength, flexibility and superb balance. Tis far more athletic than walking, but quite a few of the people who take up the dance are not athletic at all. They haven't even enough basic strength to balance on one foot and still keep everything upright. They may be able to do simple milonguero walking type tango with whatever strength they have from daily life, but 99% of them want to do WAY more than that. They want to do Forever Tango. (figuratively, not literally)

Excellent points. Yes, there are some dances, including simple social AT, that do not require much in the way of specialized movements to perform at a very basic level. But to dance in the way that many people want to do - fancy leg work, elegant, dramatic lines, etc. requires some physical fitness as well as training in how to move like a dancer.

Beautiful posture, line, balance and precise muscle control do not come naturally. As I have said before, I have used more of my previous ballet training in AT than in any other partner dance I have learned -and even still have found AT a big challenge.

[Light Sleeper]

What, in people's opinion, is the best background to have had before you start tango?? E.g. technical dance training such as ballet, jazz, contemporary, ballroom? Or disciplines such as martial arts or something like pilates?

[kieronneedscake]

What, in people's opinion, is the best background to have had before you start tango?? E.g. technical dance training such as ballet, jazz, contemporary, ballroom? Or disciplines such as martial arts or something like pilates?

I would say there are no major advantages to different backgrounds if the person is of flexible mind. From my amateur experience of ballroom, I would say it was too full of limiting concepts (rules) and very strict form that interferes with both the mind and the body of the tango-newbie. Of course the transition is made frequently, but some people may never shake off their original mindsets in what at face value appears to be a very similar partner dance.

Former ballet dancers seem to progress very rapidly, I suspect due to their much enhanced sense of balance and control.

3 months of jujitsu helped me along somewhat, but certain postural things were hard to clear out. A black-belted friend of mine relates a passing urge to turn tango movements into far more drilled throws...

[Light Sleeper]

[quote=kieronneedscake;583892]I would say there are no major advantages to different backgrounds if the person is of flexible mind.

Former ballet dancers seem to progress very rapidly, I suspect due to their much enhanced sense of balance and control.
quote]

I'm meaning from a purely physical perspective - I mean disciplines that have trained the body. I have witnessed BR dancers who have difficulty with the lack of rules. But I'm talking purely about physical states.

So, ballet, then is good for the balance and control.

PS Have found an interesting vid re martial arts - will post on vids!

[jennyisdancing]

My tango teacher is also a yoga devotee. I only have a little yoga experience myself, but I think it is excellent for balance, flexibility, and muscle control as well as being able to relax and focus the mind.

[Zoopsia59]

What, in people's opinion, is the best background to have had before you start tango?? E.g. technical dance training such as ballet, jazz, contemporary, ballroom? Or disciplines such as martial arts or something like pilates?

I have not had pilates or martial arts (except a smidge of Tai Chi). The best prep/ cross train for tango I've had is freestyle figure skating. I've had habits from ballet that I had to unlearn to do tango such as worrying about turn out (which in some moves is actually awkward for tango) Pique' (ie: stepping onto a straight leg on some moves.. I can't think of much use for stepping up onto a straight leg in tango... not often at least)

Skating is more down in the knees, and also has the advantage of accustoming you to traveling backwards (don't do much of that in ANYTHING else) although the mechanism for backwards movement in skating is very different, it does help just to be comfortable with moving rapidly backwards.

You have to learn about rotating cleanly just as in dance pirrouettes, but with the added complication that you can travel horizontally as you spin because of infintesimal changes to various angles of your foot. Sometimes that helps and sometimes it makes things harder.

Forward stroking in skating encourages extending the free leg, collecting between strokes, and also pushing from the supporting leg to change weight. (no push, you don't go anywhere!) You also have to pay alot of attention to what direction your foot is pointed when you step because, as Scott Hamilton loved to point out in his commentary, skates don't like to move sideways. You have to think all the way through your foot, not just because of form and correctness of aesthetic, but because its dangerous not to.

And skating really requires balance and awareness in a way that dancing doesn't at a hobby level. Anyone can fall doing a dance, but they aren't likely to fall just walking around or doing basics. Even experienced skaters can fall doing the simplist things. You really have to be aware of everything in your body on a whole different level even doing basic moves. Its not just to "get it right". Its to keep you from suffering severe injury. (yes, I know dancers get injured too, but how many of them fall down just STANDING there or walking across the floor?) That awareness of the constant danger and risk if you aren't careful is always in your mind. I never experienced that to the same level in dancing even when doing partner lifts.

On the other hand, the element of caressing the floor or pointing the foot much (things like Lapis) are pretty absent in skating due to the nature of the rigid boot, and there's a tendency to lean forward and stick the tush out. Since that tendency exists in tango also, you don't need a "cross training" exercise that makes it WORSE (even though its not correct in skating either)

For followers, skating can make it hard to let go of the habit of watching where you are going and worrying about what's happening around you. You can't skate in a crowd and ignore other skaters and where they are going. The advantages of learning to move backwards could be negated by the habit of looking behind you to do it. However, for leaders, navigating a dance floor might be a piece of cake compared to a crowded skating rink at high speed. Poeple are closer together on the dance floor, but the results of a collision are less potentially disasterous

So as with any other movement form, there are things that make it a good cross trainer and things that make it not so good. But for me, skating helped more than ballet, although ballet has its really good points too.

The two of them made a nice combination background. I think probably the best thing is to have a background of multiple different movement forms so as to be adaptable rather than full of "industry specific&q