Bad Etiquette :(

[pygmalion]

Just out of curiosity, what is the worst breach of dance etiquette you've ever witnessed? You know, beginners dancing in the fast lane, or people standing on the dance floor, smoking and talking (but not dancing :evil: )

It seems most of us have a common understanding of what constitutes good dance floor etiquette. But, here and there, are a few people who just don't get it.

What's the worst you've seen? EM's want to know. :wink:

[Laura]

The worst that's ever happened to me was that I was taking a friend who had just moved to the area around to all the different dance studios to see what was out there. We went to one place for a party and the studio owner (who had met him when we took a group class from her earlier in the week) monopolized him so badly that I didn't get one danced with my friend all night. She kept grabbing him and either dancing with him herself or putting this 14-year-old girl (maybe she was 16) in front of him to dance with because she was looking for a partner for the girl. Now, since my role was to make introductions and act as chauffer I knew I wouldn't get to dance with my friend very much, but all I got was part of the last waltz of the evening. It just really pissed me off, especially since none of that studio's regulars asked me to dance at all that night! And then the next night she....oh never mind. It's water under the bridge now and for all I know one of this woman's minions could be reading these boards. Let's put it this way: I was not amused and not only am I never going back there again, I'm never recommending that anyone go there either.

[Spitfire]

Those people who give unsolicited advice during a social dance. :x

That's what lessons and classes are for. :wink:

[twnkltoz]

At a social dance, asked of me: "Will you dance two minutes of cha cha with me and tell me what I'm doing wrong?"

1. I charge $40/hour for that. Set up a lesson and I'll tell you all kinds of stuff you're doing wrong.

2. It's a social dance. I'm not there to teach, but to dance.

3. If you want to dance with me, you dance the whole dance. Not two minutes, not long enough for me to diagnose you, the whole dance.

[Chris Stratton]

Those people who give unsolicited advice during a social dance. :x

That's wht lessons and classes are for. :wink:

I've finally decided that the necessary extension of this is that one must refuse to dance with those who are in desperate but unacknowledged need of advice. I mean the kind of person who is physically aggravating to dance with and either doesn't take training, or more often who takes classes over and over without learning what is being taught.

What I haven't yet figured out is how to make a permanent refusal technical rather than personal, without making it consitute advice. Saying "Please stop asking me to dance" implies personal dislike. Wheras "I will not dance with you again until you start trying to make an effort to use your feet" clarifies the issue, but also consistutes technical advice.

I sometimes think that what ballroom needs is the addition of a third context - not classes, not socials, but more of a social practice, where it's explicitly okay to discuss things, with the setting itself implying at least the possibility of mutual interest in doing so. This would primarily be of the advanced & beginner type of interaction, but also there is substantial possibility of collaborative 'figuring things out' - sort of an in person version of some of the tehnical discussions from various online forums.

[Sagitta]

Those people who give unsolicited advice during a social dance. :x

That's wht lessons and classes are for. :wink:

I've finally decided that the necessary extension of this is that one must refuse to dance with those who are in desperate but unacknowledged need of advice. I mean the kind of person who is physically aggravating to dance with and either doesn't take training, or more often who takes classes over and over without learning what is being taught.

What I haven't yet figured out is how to make a permanent refusal technical rather than personal, without making it consitute advice. Saying "Please stop asking me to dance" implies personal dislike. Wheras "I will not dance with you again until you start trying to make an effort to use your feet" clarifies the issue, but also consistutes technical advice.

I sometimes think that what ballroom needs is the addition of a third context - not classes, not socials, but more of a social practice, where it's explicitly okay to discuss things, with the setting itself implying at least the possibility of mutual interest in doing so. This would primarily be of the advanced & beginner type of interaction, but also there is substantial possibility of collaborative 'figuring things out' - sort of an in person version of some of the tehnical discussions from various online forums.

I agree with you Chris. That is why I enjoy the AT practicas. I can get advice and practice and then enjoy doing what I can during the milongas (dances). :)

[chachagirlie]

I think everyone experiences the "Here let me teach you something" and the very famous, "I've just begun competing and this how you should be doing it" but for me...the worst was ...

Oh wait...I guess this needs a little setup...my husband is a very good looking man, an obviously experienced dancer with a wonderful lead...

O.K. now...at the risk of looking like the big B...here's the story...

My husband and I went dancing one evening at a local dance studio's party. We danced 80% of the evening dances together. Of the 20% we did not dance together, it was so we could accept dances from old friends. A woman neither of us knew, grabbed my husband every chance she saw I was being asked by someone else and before my husband could ask someone. She several times during the evening asked my husband if he wanted to be her partner...to which he replied... no...I dance and compete with my wife.

All of this my husband told me during the dance. He also said she was not a very good dancer.

She nabbed him a final time for the evening, just prior to our final dance of the evening.

My husband and I were walking to our car when he said look at this...the woman had slipped a piece of paper into his pant's pocket! :x and the paper had her name, phone number and "dance partner" written on it!

My husband made a comment to me about how aggressive some women can be and can't seem to take no for an answer...So I decided it was time I took action. :evil:

Now I am not normally a jealous woman. I actually have a reputation among my friends and co-workers for being calm and unflappable...but it was his pant's pocket!

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

I guess you can tell I was furious! :D

I decided it was time to flap just a little...

I turned on my heel and went back into the studio. She was on the floor...in the center. I waited for the music to end, quickly crossed the floor and cut her off from reaching the edge. I handed her back the piece of paper and said very quietly and calmly, "My husband won't be needing this."

She sort of stammered a half apology ... and I swiftly left.

[Vin]

I don't think that one will be beaten. Good on you.

[pygmalion]

LOL! That is the best dance floor story I've heard in a long time, chachagirlie. That'll show her not to put her hands in the pocket of someone else's husband! Grr.

[Spitfire]

I sometimes think that what ballroom needs is the addition of a third context - not classes, not socials, but more of a social practice, where it's explicitly okay to discuss things, with the setting itself implying at least the possibility of mutual interest in doing so. This would primarily be of the advanced & beginner type of interaction, but also there is substantial possibility of collaborative 'figuring things out' - sort of an in person version of some of the tehnical discussions from various online forums.

Isn't this done in workshops?

Though the studios here don't hold many of these. However, one is being held for WCS next month at our studio and USABDA does three of them a year.

[Chris Stratton]

Isn't this done in workshops?


I guess it depends on the meaning of 'workshop'. In my experience to date, the word has generally meant something along the lines of one-time cluster of group classes probably including a visiting teacher or two.

I was thinking more along the lines of a social practice session in which non-professional students of varying levels would interact with dancers other than just their usual partners.

The difference may mean more in the context of ballroom which has fairly strict divisions between who is considered an amateur, a professional, or a teacher compared to what I understand is a less structured spectrum of roles in the WCS community.

[salsachinita]

..... a social practice, where it's explicitly okay to discuss things, with the setting itself implying at least the possibility of mutual interest in doing so. This would primarily be of the advanced & beginner type of interaction, but also there is substantial possibility of collaborative 'figuring things out' - sort of an in person version of some of the tehnical discussions from various online forums.

I think this is an excellent idea. Salsa scenes can definitely use some of it (except I'm not too sure how it could be executed successfully :? ).

Having recently started getting involved in the teaching side of things, I've suddenly realised sooooooo much bad etiquette around that desparately need addressing (but how does one go about it tactfully?).

I had a girl (who recently started seeking advise from me) coming up to me *very apologetically* about not being able to complet a dance from this really rough lead (who happened to have taken a couple of casual classes with us). The poor girl got hurled into so many other people she was too worried to enjoy the dance :( . She wanted to know if she's done something terrible by not wanting to finish the whole song.........

That was a particularly bad night, as the floor was packed with all the newbies/non-dancers who have no idea that other people were there, too :evil: . I got attacked from all corners myself!

I've decided to have a word with a few of these culprits (only the ones I feel I could give advise :oops: ). I might need to have a word with their teachers (if I know them) too.

In the interest of dancer's safety, I'm kinda about to break the 'no unsolicited advise' code :oops: .......... what do you guys think? Should I say something, or keep quiet? I would hate to see newbies scared away from the clubs by a few (too many) out there who cause traffic hazards :roll: !

[tsb]

Those people who give unsolicited advice during a social dance. :x

That's wht lessons and classes are for. :wink:

I've finally decided that the necessary extension of this is that one must refuse to dance with those who are in desperate but unacknowledged need of advice. I mean the kind of person who is physically aggravating to dance with and either doesn't take training, or more often who takes classes over and over without learning what is being taught.

cases where suggesting "it really hurts when you do ______" is not advice as much as self-preservation IMO.


What I haven't yet figured out is how to make a permanent refusal technical rather than personal, without making it consitute advice. Saying "Please stop asking me to dance" implies personal dislike. Wheras "I will not dance with you again until you start trying to make an effort to use your feet" clarifies the issue, but also consistutes technical advice.


use your feet? what are they using now?

seriously, how about reframing the perspective to something like:

"i find it too frustrating because i can't seem to get you to follow the/execute the footwork of the moves i try to lead with you."

and more it a shortcoming on your own part instead of theirs.


I sometimes think that what ballroom needs is the addition of a third context - not classes, not socials, but more of a social practice, where it's explicitly okay to discuss things, with the setting itself implying at least the possibility of mutual interest in doing so. This would primarily be of the advanced & beginner type of interaction, but also there is substantial possibility of collaborative 'figuring things out' - sort of an in person version of some of the tehnical discussions from various online forums.

my old teachers do that by hosting monthly practice dances. we used to trade moves, stuff like that.

[Danish Guy]

In the interest of dancer's safety, I'm kinda about to break the 'no unsolicited advise' code :oops: .......... what do you guys think? Should I say something, or keep quiet? I would hate to see newbies scared away from the clubs by a few (too many) out there who cause traffic hazards :roll: !

Go ahead, but try to tell the newbie’s in a nice constructive way.
Most will appreciate some good well-meant advice/feedback 8)
Tell the teachers directly what dancers the produce!

[Pacion]

:lol: chachagirlie, good for you!

I don't care for aggressive female dancers at all who show no sensitivity for finding whether a guy is there with his wife, girlfriend or even another good female friend.

[Sagitta]

Salsachinita tsbs advice is good. When dancing I always try to phrase it in a way that it does not look as if I'm giving advice, but just asking for help. One example is beginners looking at my feet and at my hip motion while dancing! [Are we dancing, or what?] Now I know what it feels like to be stared at!!

[Phil Owl]

Just out of curiosity, what is the worst breach of dance etiquette you've ever witnessed? You know, beginners dancing in the fast lane, or people standing on the dance floor, smoking and talking (but not dancing :evil: )

It seems most of us have a common understanding of what constitutes good dance floor etiquette. But, here and there, are a few people who just don't get it.

What's the worst you've seen? EM's want to know. :wink:

Hotshot couples who just brazenly cut through and between people on the dance floor without ANY regard to the well-being of others. Doing competition moves where there is clearly NO physical space to do so. :evil: :snake:

[Chris Stratton]

Ah well, it's unfortunatley getting to the point where sometimes the best opportunity to dress up and do social ballroom right is to jump into a competition with a pickup partner.

I wonder if the WCS community, with their emphasis on jack & jill competitions, is on to something.

[DancingMommy]

All right... I have to chime in one this.... The worst breach of etiquette I've ever experienced is as follows:

When darling hubby and I had been dating a little while (and just before our engagement was made public), we went to our local Lindy Hop venue...

All the usual suspects were there, including a friend of his (female) who had been his "stag-mate" - IOW when they didn't have dates, they went with each other.

Weeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll l, here we were, darling and I, standing on the ramp down to the dance floor when his "friend" comes up and asks him to dance.... I wouldn't have minded if....

He hadn't been holding my hand in the crook of his arm and she physically jerked him away from me.... I tightened my grip on his arm for a second, and she said to me "I know you don't mind"...

Well let me tell you what b.... I DID mind.... It wasn't enought that she didn't even say hello to me or even acknowledge my FRIGGING existence... But to yank him away from me?! WTH?!

I spent the entire evening planning how I was going to get even.... Alas, my plans of taking her outside and breaking her kneecaps never did come to pass.

Apparently she was POd that he didn't ask her permission to date and that *horrors* he would date someone outside the Lindy Hop community, no less. Oh fer cryin' out loud.......

[DanceAm]

My wife and I have a female teacher as a primary dance teacher and this is not our first one. But I have had to tell all of them that if I feel I am being tested or analyzed during a social dance, I won't dance with them anymore. Of course I will dance with them again, I just wanted to make a point. As it turns out, I just get hit with it at the next lesson, which is OK with me.

Is it hard to turn off the teacher mode? Is it hard to have fun at a social dance if you are teacher?

As for phone numbers in my pocket, I think the ratio at which I get hit on compared to my wife is about 20 to 1. (Mine don't say dance partner, but I show my wife and we have a good laugh as we go out the door.) She always gets guys hitting on her at dance bars, especially when I am dancing with someone else or gone to the restroom. She even had a guy compose a love letter to her and wanted to verify that I was not her boyfriend or husband before he gave it to her. I guess because I am a pretty good dancer and dance with all the ladies in our group that maybe they think I am gay and she is available.

[pygmalion]

LOL! I should have started a "predatory women on the dance floor" thread. It's funny. when I posed the question, I thought I'd get all sorts of lifts and drops, or dysfunctional underwear or smelly armpit or against line of dance stories. Instead? People attempting to steal partners and/or spouses. Hmm.

[salsachinita]

LOL! I should have started a "predatory women on the dance floor" thread.

Oh, believe me, sista.........they are everywhere :x .......!

I've had a fair share during my non-single phase :roll: ..........I'm starting to think if you're with a good dancer it's almost part of the package :? .

So why don't the females get the same? Methinks that (1) good male leads are hard to come by, so other good male leads are generally kept busy (2) the not-so-good male leads are a bit on the intimidated side (3) non-dancers/bar dudes usually target obviously single women (unless they are too drunk :roll: ) so the presence of a partner of sorts is a good deterant. I guess that took care of the usual suspects 8) .

[Sagitta]

LOL! I should have started a "predatory women on the dance floor" thread.

Oh, believe me, sista.........they are everywhere :x .......!
(2) the not-so-good male leads are a bit on the intimidated side .

Sorry!! Have to think of something else to get rid of me. :P A couple beginner AT dancers at milonga last night and guess who is the only one asks all the best ladies for a dance or two!! Moi! :)

[salsachinita]

Just to make things clear. We are talking bad ettiquette here (ie. people who steals others partner/SO socially).

NOT the old asking-people-to-dance (advanced or otherwise)-socially thing.

:oops: I should have made that clear :oops: .

[capricorndancer]

LOL! I should have started a "predatory women on the dance floor" thread.

Oh, believe me, sista.........they are everywhere :x .......!

I've had a fair share during my non-single phase :roll: ..........I'm starting to think if you're with a good dancer it's almost part of the package :? .

So why don't the females get the same? Methinks that (1) good male leads are hard to come by, so other good male leads are generally kept busy (2) the not-so-good male leads are a bit on the intimidated side (3) non-dancers/bar dudes usually target obviously single women (unless they are too drunk :roll: ) so the presence of a partner of sorts is a good deterant. I guess that took care of the usual suspects 8) .

Hmmm. And what about your single phase(s), Salsachinita? Some degree of subjectivity/objectivity problem may also be at work here . . . But, I'll try to keep my observations objective.

1) getting hit on depends a lot on how you dance, combined with the scene in which you are dancing. To wit: a very sexy-looking and -dancing young GF of mine,years ago, would get hit on multiple times a night, even by men who knew of our involvement. I, on the other hand, rarely got signs of significant or offensive interest (she called me obtuse about that).
In Detroit, though, women are more sought after by men than the reverse, I think; there is a much more sexually apartheid culture here. (BTW, like my ex-GF, I was one of the best dancers in the Salsa crowd, though that's not saying much in The D, so our dancing profiles were similar.)

2) the kind of approaches made by sexually or simply socially interested parties depend a lot on how you interect with them off the dance floor. Once I leave it, I am the picture of gentlemanly restraint (IMHO), and virtually never flirt with women off as well as on the floor. At least while out dancing . . . :-) . . . which I think would put otherwise interested parties off. Then there is the challenge of dancing with someone much more skilled than themselves, which could also promote caution.

3) the time spent with other dancers also influences their impatience with getting "their share"; obviously, a partnered couple may monopolise each other, thus making the amount of time available for other dancers rather limited. Which leads to aggressive approaches . . . But, there is also the near-taboo about women asking men to dance: those that do ask, tend to be more assertive, which can come across as aggressive or preemptory to gentler souls. ;-)

There is no excuse for being too self-involved to observe how someone else is reacting to your interest (or lack thereof), which is probably the root of most rude behaviour: it is simply too much focus one oneself, and one's own wants, than being considerate of other's circumstances. Familiarity breeds contempt, of a sort, too; once some people become familiar with one's self, they tend to forget that a person also has one's own wants, etc.
In a way, general personal interactions are like good dancing (I'm sure most people reading this have seen the parallels between dancing and relationships; I'm a molecular biologist, and I see the same there in protein interactions, too): being considerate of other people, aware of their 'balance' and style, and adapting to one another, is the best way to foster good humour and create positive experiences, for all.

<sigh> I think it is time, again, for me to go lie down and leave off philosophising, at least for today.

CD

[Sagitta]

Just to make things clear. We are talking bad ettiquette here (ie. people who steals others partner/SO socially).

NOT the old asking-people-to-dance (advanced or otherwise)-socially thing.

:oops: I should have made that clear :oops: .

Sorry. I'm a litle hyper today. :oops: That I never do!

[Kitty]

Ah well, it's unfortunatley getting to the point where sometimes the best opportunity to dress up and do social ballroom right is to jump into a competition with a pickup partner.

You must be doing theater arts! :lol: 8)

[dancin_feet]

The worst breach of dance etiquette that I have seen, I continue to see every week. There is a guy who is at my level (though he is really stiff and mechanical to dance with) who has to treat every dance as practice. Meaning that even if he gets a beginner up on the floor who only knows 3 or 4 steps, he will try going through all his steps with them! Our level is working on up to step 18. Just plain inconsiderate and rude if you ask me. If his leads were a lot better and he threw in a slightly higher step a couple of times during the dance, I would say OK, but he really doesn't care what level the person he is dancing with is at. He has to have his practice. :x

I often wonder if he is the reason some beginners come along to their first party and don't come back. :? I hate to put all the blame on him (and I'm sure it's not warranted) but it can't help a beginner's confidence to be dancing with a lead that has no consideration for them at all.

[DancePoet]

The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude.

[love2swing]

The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude.

That is rude! I wouldn't be asking her for dances again!

[tsb]

The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude.

that's too bad. while we'd like to think that what goes around comes around sometimes it doesn't. but you aren't missing out on anything if that's part of who she is as a person.

[twnkltoz]

The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude.

I did this accidentally once. One of my dance buddies asked me for a swing, and I said I'd better sit it out (it was near the end of the evening). Then, someone new that was a pretty good dancer came up and asked me if I swung. Well yes, I do swing! The next thing I knew, I was on the floor, dancing. Oops...I was supposed to be resting! I ended up apologizing to the buddy later and he's never held it against me.

[pygmalion]

Yes. That kind of slip-up does happen. Quite often, though, people will lie to avoid dancing with someone they find "undesirable," then accept a dance from someone they prefer. :? The thing is, if you just don't want to dance with a particular person, just say no. Don't add the lie as embellishment. Adding a "reason" (lie) doesn't soften the blow, especially if, three seconds later, you're up and dancing with someone else. Grr.

[Sagitta]

Okay...

I'm dancing with someone last night and this girl comes up to me and interrupts me. She gives me her keys and asks me to keep them for her!!

[Chris Stratton]

Okay...

I'm dancing with someone last night and this girl comes up to me and interrupts me. She gives me her keys and asks me to keep them for her!!

In your left pocket I hope

[Sagitta]

Okay...

I'm dancing with someone last night and this girl comes up to me and interrupts me. She gives me her keys and asks me to keep them for her!!

In your left pocket I hope

:roll: Always! I usually keep my keys in my little bag, but since she asked me to keep them in my pocket I kept them for her there. The right pocket is a no no as that is where there is body contact. Don't want to discourage that, no? :wink: :) Hmmmm....note to self...person coming on to you..load right pocket with pokey things. :twisted: :)

[KevinL]

Hmmmm....note to self...person coming on to you..load right pocket with pokey things. :twisted: :)

Hey! I purposefully did that as a joke on my teaching assistant a month or so ago! I collected keys from lots of people, my cell phone and a stick of deoderant, and had them all in my right pocket when we started teaching tango.

I felt her startle when I took dance hold, but she didn't say anything right away. After a minute or so of demonstrating what we were going to do in class I made a point of mentioning that the hold for Tango is closer than for waltz or foxtrot so leaders should empty their right pockets. Then I started pulling all that pokey stuff out of my pocket...

My partner (and the class) started laughing, and I think the leaders got the point...

...

I also went out swing dancing a couple of weeks ago and chatted with a guy I met when I first moved here, and when he first started dancing. We had danced a few times and (although I don't remember it), I told him that as a leader he should always remember to clean out his pockets. He told me that he remembers that conversation every time he goes dancing, and always remebers to clean out his pockets! I've had a positive influence after all!

Kevin

[capricorndancer]

.
.
.
I also went out swing dancing a couple of weeks ago and chatted with a guy I met when I first moved here, and when he first started dancing. We had danced a few times and (although I don't remember it), I told him that as a leader he should always remember to clean out his pockets. He told me that he remembers that conversation every time he goes dancing, and always remebers to clean out his pockets! I've had a positive influence after all!

Kevin

Hmm. On a slightly risque note, I think most the guys will understand this one: to avoid inadvertent "pokey things" being in one's pocket, I would add to the "empty pocket" advice, to always wear on the left. This can avoid much confusion and consternation on the part of the ladies with whom you dance.

Of course, this is a bit more challenging a subject to bring up wit ha near-stranger . . . :-)


CD

[Genesius Redux]

Bad dance etiquette....

On another thread, I wrote of an abortive joke I was about to play on my old studio when a friend I've recently begun dancing with took their intro package.

I was going to let them give me their intro, and just play dumb, until the Friday night party. This all was happening at another branch of the studio, so I wasn't that well-known there.

Anyway, she didn't want to go through with it--started feeling sorry for her teacher and all. So we agreed that I wouldn't trick them in their intro package and we'd just come clean--she'd go to the party, and ask about taking a guest who already knew how to dance. Etc.

So we show up for the party, the teacher is there to say hello, and he does when he sees Kimberly and says hello to me too. Then I suppose he notices the shoe bag she's carrying, and I'm carrying a shoe bag as well.

The whole night--and this is a party that she paid for, mind you, with her introductory package--the teacher ignores her. Doesn't ask her to dance even once. Doesn't introduce her to any of the other instructors. I gave him plenty of chances--once we waited while a song began, and he walked right on by, found another woman in the front row, and began to dance with her. Whether you expect further business or not, there's just no excuse for that kind of rudeness.

Incidentally, this clown couldn't dance to save his life.

I did the only thing I could decently do, after he asked the other woman to dance. I took Kimberly on the floor, found a space right next to this jackanapes, and began to East Coast Swing (he hadn't even begun to teach her that yet), doing patterns as complicated as I could lead Kimberly through. Though truth to tell I would have much preferred a more private meeting with this Candy-boy out in the parking lot.

Breach of dance etiquette and business etiquette, but par for the course in this so-called "studio" where the name of the game is money, and nobody learns a blessed thing!

[pygmalion]

I had a former teacher start the cold shoulder/ignore Jenn treatment when I refused to buy lessons from him. Of course, this was just after he informed me that the proper lead for locks in Viennese waltz involved scrunching his shoulders, so I didn't feel too bad about being ignored. What a moron. :lol:

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word moron. Is that against DF nice-ness policy? Maybe I should have said, I wonder how one could be so woefully misinformed, when he was supposed to have been teaching ballroom for the previous five years. :? Makes you wonder.

Actually, I came within an inch of saying to him, innocently of course, "You mean you lead locks by distorting your frame beyond recognition?" I didn't though. He didn't like my sarcastic side too much. LOL.

Anyway, back on point. Mine is another example of very bad dance-related business etiquette.

[Chris Stratton]

So we show up for the party, the teacher is there to say hello, and he does when he sees Kimberly and says hello to me too. Then I suppose he notices the shoe bag she's carrying, and I'm carrying a shoe bag as well.

The whole night--and this is a party that she paid for, mind you, with her introductory package--the teacher ignores her.

I think it's easy to forget how different various approaches to dancing are.

How would you expect your friend to be treated if she walked into a restaurant trailing a pizza-box-toting friend? Even if you both order drinks, the staff are still going to treat your coldly - or more likely, throw you out. Not only would you be making it clear you probably won't contribute much to their meager commission-based earnings, the very presence of your pizza box could remind others that there are cheaper sources of food. I don't think anyone quite expects that kind of treatment at a dance studio, but in terms of the business of a place selling the service of dancing (as opposed to the knowledge of dancing) the economic situation may not be that different.

[jon]

Hmm. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word moron.

"synaptically challenged"?

[capricorndancer]

The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude.

I did this accidentally once. One of my dance buddies asked me for a swing, and I said I'd better sit it out (it was near the end of the evening). Then, someone new that was a pretty good dancer came up and asked me if I swung. Well yes, I do swing! The next thing I knew, I was on the floor, dancing. Oops...I was supposed to be resting! I ended up apologizing to the buddy later and he's never held it against me.

I have been turned down by people who know me, though usually not well, because they just turned down someone else. My usual feeling to their considerate reply runs along this line: yeah, that's very considerate, but this is about the only opportunity you'll have to dance with me tonight, and that guy couldn't hold a candle to me. (I've never suffered much from modesty, once I have the meter of the scene.)
To put it in a different way: there are some women I would turn down, even well-liked dance partners, just because I needed rest from their particular style, or because they would tax me too much, but a different or better dancer would be fine. Perhaps many men don't ask women to dance, once a song has begun, as the woman has probably said no already to someone else.

Bottom line is that, when someone says "I don't want to dance", no-one wants to hear the last two unspoken words: ". . . with you". Sometimes they are there, sometimes not. I've learned that, if one asks a woman several times in a night, and she makes polite replies, but is happily off dancing with other guys, then it is personal. Not taking it so can be challenging, so I would usually prefer just to be told outright "No, I don't dance with strangers/guys my partner doesn't know/people with your style/etc."
Honesty goes a long way, but it can be impolite, so there's the rub. As an aside, my rule of thumb is "three strikes you're out": if I'm turned down three times in a row, I'll never ask that woman to dance again; it's just not worth the time, effort or aggravation, whatever her reasons.

CD

[SalseraLaura]

ok this is something that is IMO bad etiquette, i used to take it as a challenge but now its really just starting to get on my nerves. there are 2 guys who do this one is a teacher one isnt, both are good dancers in the context of where i dance, but both have massive ego problems and a chip on their shoulder i guess. other women who are good dancers have said this to me about these 2 men so i guess its not just me.

ill dance with either one of them and the turn patterns get more and more complicated and its fun...youre both smiling and dancing away happily, you both start adding some nice styling to the difficult patterns, shines on any free beats, then suddenly he starts looking away as if hes bored...i know hes not but hes really trying hard to look like this is sooo easy for him, then he pulls out a shine and i shine back when my shine gets a little more complex hell stop his shine and literally pull me into a cross body lead like as if to say..how dare you keep up with me, so then it starts to feel a little competitive which isnt so much fun as before. out come all the stops neck drops all the showy stuff and when you dont make a mistake...you feel the tension getting worse, he starts to give me a look like a mean look and then BAM he throws in the lead that cant be followed, one where your arm ends up twisted or he pulls you halfway during a fast spin into something where his foot is "accidentaly" infront of yours, then he raises an eyebrow and laughs..."cant keep up?" i just feel like walking off the floor right there and then, its a dance, fun....social dancing why do something so petty and potentially dangerous just to make it feel like the follower cant follow, it used to get me down a year or 2 ago, but since then ive danced with some of the most renowned male instructors in the salsa scene and not made mistakes, ive been complimented on how well i follow by these dancers and how much fun it is to interact with me in the dance.....so what is it?? honest opinions here ppl..because i feel its just a petty attempt to get "one up" on me.

[capricorndancer]

.....so what is it?? honest opinions here ppl..because i feel its just a petty attempt to get "one up" on me.

Yep, I'd go for the petty attempt, plus add that the guys are probably control freaks.

If you want to continue dancing with them (they are both good, I guess), then just don't continue doing your own stuff when it reaches the point where they feel they have to show how much better they are. Let them think they are gods - in their own small minds they are, so that's where to leave them - and once they've calmed down, keep it light.

CD

[tsb]

after four pages it occurs to me that there may not be a common concept of what etiquette is, or that there are underlying assumptions we shouldn't ignore or overlook. for example, one does not commit a breach of etiquette if they do not care about the ramifications of giving offense, that is to say that etiquette as i understand it implies a desire not to give offense because of the potential ramifications of the other person or persons taking offense. while i do not advocate a "tit for tat" mentality, i personally would not consider anything a breach of etiquette if it is a response to offensive behavior that will not cease with gracious requests to do so.

[pygmalion]

after four pages it occurs to me that there may not be a common concept of what etiquette is, or that there are underlying assumptions we shouldn't ignore or overlook.

Exactly why I asked. :wink: :lol:

[DancePoet]

DancePoet wrote:

"The worst dancing etiquette shown towards me was a situation where a asked a woman to dance and she turned me down cause she needed a rest. I accepted graciously, but then she accepted someone elses invitation. Just plain rude."

Interestingly, this woman was turning down different men routinely at the weekly social dances. Word got around, and she got far less offers then before. I didn't ask her for months. Then one day I decided to try again, and she accepted immediately, made specific mention of her appreciation for me having asked, hasn't turned me down since, and actually asked me last week. Seems like she got the message, but still fewer men ask her then before.

twnkltoz wrote:

"I did this accidentally once. One of my dance buddies asked me for a swing, and I said I'd better sit it out (it was near the end of the evening). Then, someone new that was a pretty good dancer came up and asked me if I swung. Well yes, I do swing! The next thing I knew, I was on the floor, dancing. Oops...I was supposed to be resting! I ended up apologizing to the buddy later and he's never held it against me."

To twnkltoz: I am impressed that you apologized!

[tsb]

after four pages it occurs to me that there may not be a common concept of what etiquette is, or that there are underlying assumptions we shouldn't ignore or overlook.

Exactly why I asked. :wink: :lol:

my take is that in general. the concept of etiquette has changed. before the purpose of etiquette was to avoid giving offense. being courteous for courtesy's sake is a dying notion. nowadays people seem to think:

"what do i risk losing if i offend this person?. whatever."

[MacMoto]

how dare you keep up with me, so then it starts to feel a little competitive which isnt so much fun as before. out come all the stops neck drops all the showy stuff and when you dont make a mistake...you feel the tension getting worse, he starts to give me a look like a mean look and then BAM he throws in the lead that cant be followed, one where your arm ends up twisted or he pulls you halfway during a fast spin into something where his foot is "accidentaly" infront of yours, then he raises an eyebrow and laughs..."cant keep up?" i just feel like walking off the floor right there and then, its a dance, fun....social dancing why do something so petty and potentially dangerous just to make it feel like the follower cant follow,
:shock: :shock: This is a new one on me -- leaders getting competitive with one another I can understand, but leaders who get competitive with followers they are dancing with!? Why? What's the point? I always thought that the best way for the leader to show off his skills was to make the follower look really good, leading her so well that she can dance far above her level... that's my definition of a dream leader anyway. I mean, if leader A and leader B put a follower through the same (complicated) turn pattern, and she can follow A but not B, you'd naturally think that A is a better leader, right? But deliberately making the follower look bad in an attempt to make yourself look superior? That's ego running out of control.

People can be so weird... :?

[Nammerz]

The thing that probably annoys me the most is if somebody just compleatly ignores me while dancing. There's one girl I've encountered a few times who was always trying to talk to one of her girlfriends while dancing with me, doesn't make any sort of eye contact, and doesn't even say a simple "thank you" or anything afterwards. I'd rather be dancing by myself.

[Lita_rulez]

People can be so weird... :?

Cut'n Paste the whole post you just did there and add my name at the bottom, I'll sign...

Nothing to add your honour, the DA rests.

[capricorndancer]

after four pages it occurs to me that there may not be a common concept of what etiquette is, or that there are underlying assumptions we shouldn't ignore or overlook.

Two aspects of ettiquette I can see: the rules and the principles. Rule-based approaches have the problem of being only as efficacious as the rules are comprehensive. When a circumstance is encountered for which there is no rule, then you must know your principles, to derive the rule for the new situation.

for example, one does not commit a breach of etiquette if they (I presume you mean the other person) do not care about the ramifications of giving offense, that is to say that etiquette as i understand it implies a desire not to give offense because of the potential ramifications of the other person or persons taking offense. while i do not advocate a "tit for tat" mentality, i personally would not consider anything a breach of etiquette if it is a response to offensive behavior that will not cease with gracious requests to do so.

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian; their Empires were built on proper conduct), there is NO excuse for rude behaviour. No matter what is done, it is always "stiff upper lip" (I was raised by Brits, so I have some first hand there). The principle is about not giving offense, but the rule is that One has Standards to maintain, because Gentlemanly Behaviour has No Substitute. ;-)

Seriously, though, you could be rude to someone who has committed a breach of ettiquette against you, and a third party, not privy to the original breach, will judge you as the person in the wrong. So, you damage your own reputation by misbehaviour, whatever the reason.

I fully agree with your observation: many people do seem to have this attitude:

"what do i risk losing if i offend this person?. whatever."

Though I think many don't even ask the question, but have the attitude that:

"I don't lose anything by offending people, so I'll just do what I feel"

Very prevalent in this self-absorbed society. (ie, in the US)

The balance between immediate self interest-driven behaviour and wider, still self-interested but considerate behaviour is one to be aware of; we all get it wrong at times. Sounds like people can learn though, once they realise that being rude will lead to social ramiufications.

Keep your Salsa scene social and friendly; the links of society keep people happy and behaving well.

CD

[Laura]

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian; their Empires were built on proper conduct), there is NO excuse for rude behaviour. No matter what is done, it is always "stiff upper lip" (I was raised by Brits, so I have some first hand there). The principle is about not giving offense, but the rule is that One has Standards to maintain, because Gentlemanly Behaviour has No Substitute. ;-)

I recently spent 2 weeks in China and must say that their concept of good etiquette is different from the British. There is a LOT of pushing and shoving and cutting in line. I was on line at a bank to change some money, and a man came in and pushed right in front of me to the teller's window. The teller didn't even bat an eyelash, she served him and completely ignored me. Then, when he was done, the man stayed standing about 6 inches from me staring at me while the teller handled my transaction. Similar thing with going through turnstiles at the trian and subway stations and security at the airport: people ran up and cut in from the side to get out first, rather than waiting an extra 10 seconds to let the person who was already there go through. Of course, I'm a foreigner, and in China foreigners are at the bottom of the pile, so perhaps that's what it was all about.

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm... really interesting question about a system of ettiquette though is it's equivelent of a "Defensive driving" chapter.

In other words, how it handles people who don't play along.

I think a lot of the traditional rules were built around fairly exclusive settings, so non-conformists (along with innocent average folks) would find themselves without invitations.

In a situation where anyone can fork over their $10, how does this work?

[Laura]

I think a lot of the traditional rules were built around fairly exclusive settings, so non-conformists (along with innocent average folks) would find themselves without invitations.

I completely disagree with this statement. What do such rules of good behavior such as endeavoring not to interrupt people with phone calls when they might be eating dinner or keeping phone machine messages brief, clear, and to the point (both recommendations from Miss Manners) have to do with exculding non-conformists? There's good behavior, and there is snobbery, and having decent manners is not a form of snobbery in and of itself.

[Chris Stratton]

I completely disagree with this statement. What do such rules of good behavior such as endeavoring not to interrupt people with phone calls when they might be eating dinner or keeping phone machine messages brief, clear, and to the point (both recommendations from Miss Manners) have to do with exculding non-conformists? There's good behavior, and there is snobbery, and having decent manners is not a form of snobbery in and of itself.

I was thinking specifically of behaviour at dances and private social events - how it doesn't perfectly translate to a public event where anyone can habitually buy admission and use bad behaviour to hold others hostage to their principles. Banning someone from a public event takes a far higher threshold of misbehaviour than that which would justify no longer inviting them to private ones.

But we could probably translate it to the telephone:

I think you could argue that it is impolite not to answer the phone - it's almost like not answering the door, and it might be an important call after all! If only considerate people called you about items of mutual interest, they wouldn't be calling you at dinnertime unless it was an emergency. But telemarketers abuse the phone, so people either ignore it (mine's unplugged unless I want to make a call), or get caller ID so as to re-establish enough exclusivity for ettiquette rules to work. And think how much easier the phone could be handled if you had a good house servant...

[Laura]

Miss Manners has written at length about telemarketers. She's even written a book called "Miss Manners' Guide to the New Millenium" which talks about etiquette in this day and age of telemarketers, answering machines, email, and a more open and informal society. Her book is very interesting and helpful because instead of merely repeating old rules and maintaining some sort of pre-World-War country-club standard, she looks at how society and technology has changed and writes her advice from that point of view.

[tj]

Miss Manners has written at length about telemarketers. She's even written a book called "Miss Manners' Guide to the New Millenium" which talks about etiquette in this day and age of telemarketers, answering machines, email, and a more open and informal society. Her book is very interesting and helpful because instead of merely repeating old rules and maintaining some sort of pre-World-War country-club standard, she looks at how society and technology has changed and writes her advice from that point of view.

Lol! I think it would be hilarious to start quoting Miss Manners to some of the ruder folk in the dance scene. I can just imagine the look of shock on some of their faces!

[tsb]

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian;


defintely the brits but not the asians, as evidenced by laura's experience. i can't speak for other asian cultures, but for many centuries the average chinese had no individual rights - there was no standard to which they could adhere that would guarantee justice. power lay in the hands of the town/tribal chiefs, and in respect to this dynamic, one's behavior was primarily geared towards:

- not offending those people;
- earning favors from others that one could trade;

plus with the "face" thing, avoiding any behavior that would reflect badly on not just you, but your family, ancestors, etc. - and everything is personal. i could mention that i bought the same item for $5 less and that would constitute a potential insult to a person's busines acumen.

there's a lot more, but suffice it to say that the chinese culture (but it changin) has a lot of nuances that are foreign to western thinking.


their Empires were built on proper conduct), there is NO excuse for rude behaviour. No matter what is done, it is always "stiff upper lip" (I was raised by Brits, so I have some first hand there). The principle is about not giving offense, but the rule is that One has Standards to maintain, because Gentlemanly Behaviour has No Substitute. ;-)


and ballroom is strongly influenced by the british.


Seriously, though, you could be rude to someone who has committed a breach of ettiquette against you, and a third party, not privy to the original breach, will judge you as the person in the wrong. So, you damage your own reputation by misbehaviour, whatever the reason.

I fully agree with your observation: many people do seem to have this attitude:

"what do i risk losing if i offend this person?. whatever."

Though I think many don't even ask the question, but have the attitude that:

"I don't lose anything by offending people, so I'll just do what I feel"

Very prevalent in this self-absorbed society. (ie, in the US)

The balance between immediate self interest-driven behaviour and wider, still self-interested but considerate behaviour is one to be aware of; we all get it wrong at times. Sounds like people can learn though, once they realise that being rude will lead to social ramiufications.


pragmatic, rather than idealistic.

[tsb]

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian; their Empires were built on proper conduct), there is NO excuse for rude behaviour. No matter what is done, it is always "stiff upper lip" (I was raised by Brits, so I have some first hand there). The principle is about not giving offense, but the rule is that One has Standards to maintain, because Gentlemanly Behaviour has No Substitute. ;-)

I recently spent 2 weeks in China and must say that their concept of good etiquette is different from the British. There is a LOT of pushing and shoving and cutting in line. I was on line at a bank to change some money, and a man came in and pushed right in front of me to the teller's window. The teller didn't even bat an eyelash, she served him and completely ignored me. Then, when he was done, the man stayed standing about 6 inches from me staring at me while the teller handled my transaction. Similar thing with going through turnstiles at the trian and subway stations and security at the airport: people ran up and cut in from the side to get out first, rather than waiting an extra 10 seconds to let the person who was already there go through. Of course, I'm a foreigner, and in China foreigners are at the bottom of the pile, so perhaps that's what it was all about.

you should experience driving in downtown taipei. total anarchy - but a uniform one as everyone expects the same thing,

[DancingMommy]

The thing that probably annoys me the most is if somebody just compleatly ignores me while dancing. There's one girl I've encountered a few times who was always trying to talk to one of her girlfriends while dancing with me, doesn't make any sort of eye contact, and doesn't even say a simple "thank you" or anything afterwards. I'd rather be dancing by myself.

We had a thread on this a while back in another forum which I moderate... It was titled "Self, May I Have This Dance?"

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm, here's a question:

If you are dancing socially with someone and a friend walks into the venue, is it okay to give your friend a little nod or wave in acknowledgement?

[DancingMommy]

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian; their Empires were built on proper conduct), there is NO excuse for rude behaviour. No matter what is done, it is always "stiff upper lip" (I was raised by Brits, so I have some first hand there). The principle is about not giving offense, but the rule is that One has Standards to maintain, because Gentlemanly Behaviour has No Substitute. ;-)

I recently spent 2 weeks in China and must say that their concept of good etiquette is different from the British. There is a LOT of pushing and shoving and cutting in line. I was on line at a bank to change some money, and a man came in and pushed right in front of me to the teller's window. The teller didn't even bat an eyelash, she served him and completely ignored me. Then, when he was done, the man stayed standing about 6 inches from me staring at me while the teller handled my transaction. Similar thing with going through turnstiles at the trian and subway stations and security at the airport: people ran up and cut in from the side to get out first, rather than waiting an extra 10 seconds to let the person who was already there go through. Of course, I'm a foreigner, and in China foreigners are at the bottom of the pile, so perhaps that's what it was all about.

Sweetie -

It's just that they don't understand the concept of a queue (and I don't mean the Han kind for hair). My husband could write volumes on this and he is FROM Asia (half chinese/half indonesian). Add being 为国人 into the mix and forget it! Sad but true....

[DancingMommy]

Miss Manners has written at length about telemarketers. She's even written a book called "Miss Manners' Guide to the New Millenium" which talks about etiquette in this day and age of telemarketers, answering machines, email, and a more open and informal society. Her book is very interesting and helpful because instead of merely repeating old rules and maintaining some sort of pre-World-War country-club standard, she looks at how society and technology has changed and writes her advice from that point of view.

Lol! I think it would be hilarious to start quoting Miss Manners to some of the ruder folk in the dance scene. I can just imagine the look of shock on some of their faces!

BTDT - It didn't endear me to anyone I can assure you. ;-)

[Chris Stratton]

It's just that they don't understand the concept of a queue (and I don't mean the Han kind for hair). My husband could write volumes on this and he is FROM Asia (half chinese/half indonesian). Add being 为国人 into the mix and forget it! Sad but true....

My impression from limited travel is that US amateurs have no hope of competing with "beating the queue is my life" quasi-pros from overseas. Some of the youth contenders are simply unstoppable - their own queues must be composed of pretty wiry, athletic fields, so they've honed skills for exploiting gaps in the adult ranks that would make your head spin.

[DancingMommy]

Hmm, here's a question:

If you are dancing socially with someone and a friend walks into the venue, is it okay to give your friend a little nod or wave in acknowledgement?

In a word - yes. BUT if you try to hold a conversation with said friend whilst dancing with your current partner, you might find yourself dancing alone, muahahahahah :oops:

[blue]

I think that, in polite company (ie, British, and probably most Asian; their Empires were built on proper conduct),

I don't suppose it was the colonies that formed the pattern of behaviour in the Asien countries, actually. The Japanese are extremely polite, as opposed to the Chinese. And so on...

[tj]

BTDT - It didn't endear me to anyone I can assure you. ;-)

Well, at least you gave them a chance, so that next when you *do* blow them off, they'll at least know why...

[Anonymous]

My first time in a salsa club was about eight years ago. I can't remember the name, but it was near Shelbyville, KY.

My group of friends and I were sitting on the sides talking and laughing, and slowly but surely we were picked off to go to the dance floor with some guys, and the guys we were with (my boyfriend had invited himself along, long story) were dancing too.

Well, my boyfriend was getting drunk and pushy- not only with me, but with other people. He'd sat back down to sulk, and I was trying to learn how to dance with Rikki, a fellow competitor/trainer at our horse shows. He and I were laughing and acting goofy, when suddenly, right up next to him is Danny. I said "what are you doing? We're dancing- you take turns.." but by then, Danny was making A FOOL of himself. He was your typical Southern Illinois beergutted redneck. He had on plastic walmart cowboy boots for chrissakes, and was trying valiantly to copy the moves from the wedding-night-dance scene in 8 seconds (if you think I'm making this up, I assure you I'm not).

Rikki shot me an apologetic, embarassed glance, and wandered off. I tried to leave, he caught my arm and "come on- you wanted to dance"...

Well, needless to say, he made the four-hour drive back down to Metropolis ALONE, and we broke up not too awfully long after that thankfully.

Nothing has ever been more embarassing as far as a social scene as that. I've fallen off of horses in front of important people, burped very loudly when I thought nobody was around, and even went to an Itzach Perlman concert with horse slobber on the shoulder of my evening gown, and I would relive all of it if I could just forget that horribly embarassing, mood-killing, unfestive altercation.

(but I'm on zoloft, and will get past it, in another ten years, LOL)

[twnkltoz]

Ok, I've got a good one.

I was taking lessons with one of our local pros, who happens to also be a friend. I showed up at the studio one saturday morning, and he was about half an hour late. Since he felt so bad, he gave me an extra half hour for free (so, at this point I'd been at the studio for about 2 hours). Afterward, we were walking out the door when a buddy of ours showed up. We were standing outside talking, and suddenly my boyfriend at the time drives up with my daughter and starts yelling at me across the parking lot for being late coming home. We had no plans for the day, he wasn't relying on me to be home, he was just pissed off that I didn't come straight home. My friends jaws were on the ground. I said, "Can we discuss this later?" and he said, "Oh, we will!" When we got home, I told him he'd better not EVER talk to me like that, in public or not, again. He told me that it was unacceptable that I was late, and that when he got there I was, *gasp* TALKING!!

He'd also given me a hard time several times before for being late home from lessons with my standard teacher, who was married. Ok, it was a 20-25 minute drive each way, 60 minutes for the lesson, 5-10 minutes for changing shoes and chatting...so duh I'm going to be gone for a couple of hours!! He also forbade me to go out dancing without him (ie, when he was sick or out of town)...even escorted by my brother. I dropped him like a hot potato...I still see him in the studio on Saturday nights, but he doesn't exist to me.

Not as good as Poni's story, though!

[pygmalion]

At least my former SO would wait til I got HOME before yelling at me for dancing too much. If he'd ever had the nerve to call me out in front of my dance friends ... I would have dumped his sorry butt sooner!!! Not such a bad thing, I guess. :roll: LOL.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Because it is somewhat cheeky to ask other women in a group to dance if you've already been refused by one.Is it? Why?Because you've just walked up to them and essentially said to all the others, "You're my second (third, etc.) choice." No one likes being the second choice.
This doesn't seem to get discussed much on the forum. Do you sit out a song if declined by the person whom you asked?

[Joe]

If you care whether or not you dance with the asker again. If you refused because you don't like him/her, do as you please.

[SPratt74]

If you care whether or not you dance with the asker again. If you refused because you don't like him/her, do as you please.

Yes I agree. If they get upset, that's not your problem.

[waltzgirl]

This doesn't seem to get discussed much on the forum. Do you sit out a song if declined by the person whom you asked?

No, I don't think so. If you ask someone to dance and they say no, they should sit out the dance, but you can go on to ask someone else.

[Chris Stratton]

I think something we tend to forget is that old etiquette rules didn't stand on their own. Instead they were part of a system: training in rules and also skills from childhood, most situations accessable by invitation only, and if it came to it, the occasional duel.

[mamboqueen]

What usually happens to me is I decline someone (which is rare, but if I think they'll cause me pain, I decline) and then the best dancer in the room will come ask me to dance. Never fails.

[Catarina]

What usually happens to me is I decline someone (which is rare, but if I think they'll cause me pain, I decline) and then the best dancer in the room will come ask me to dance. Never fails.

I second that. AND, I'm guilty of saying yes, and apologizing to that dancer...feeling the need to apologize to "men" for essentially lying to the other guys who I declined just moments before!

[quixotedlm]

why don't you all just learn to smile and say no without giving reasons? then do as you please... go dance with someone else if that's what you want to..

[waltzgirl]

why don't you all just learn to smile and say no without giving reasons? then do as you please... go dance with someone else if that's what you want to..

Well, it depends on the venue. That would be considered very rude at a ballroom social.

[Catarina]

why don't you all just learn to smile and say no without giving reasons? then do as you please... go dance with someone else if that's what you want to..

Oftentimes, a simple no isn't enough of a response though. Many guys will persist in asking, take my hand and try to pull me toward the floor. If I am genuinely tired, don't like the song, etc, I will say so and continue to give my regrets. Their persistence and rudeness backfires on most of them, as I want to dance with that person even less! I thnk I've just gotten in the habit of justifying my "no" as a result of these kinds of guys...to ward them off as efficiently as possible when I don't feel like dancing to a song/with that guy.

[Joe]

What usually happens to me is I decline someone (which is rare, but if I think they'll cause me pain, I decline) and then the best dancer in the room will come ask me to dance. Never fails.
If the guy is gonna cause you pain, you clearly have no intention of dancing with the guy, ever, so do you care whether or not he thinks you're rude? Unless you think he's gonna go around telling people how rude you are? Go ahead and dance with the best dancer! :)

[Joe]

I think something we tend to forget is that old etiquette rules didn't stand on their own. Instead they were part of a system: training in rules and also skills from childhood, most situations accessable by invitation only, and if it came to it, the occasional duel.
Sabers, at dawn?

[mamboqueen]

If the guy is gonna cause you pain, you clearly have no intention of dancing with the guy, ever, so do you care whether or not he thinks you're rude? Unless you think he's gonna go around telling people how rude you are? Go ahead and dance with the best dancer! :)

Not remotely. In fact, I had a conversation with a guy once about the state of my back after dancing with him. I gave it one more try and decided that was it. So, for him, I don't particularly care. Then there's the case of the "sweater" who I'll give one dance to, but that's it...and early on before he's a complete sponge. It's more in situations like that where I feel a bit obligated to sit it out. It's really too bad you have to care at all. I think you should be able to dance with whom you want without having to make excuses or feel like you're being rude if you dance with someone else. I don't care one iota myself if someone declines me and then dances with someone else.

[noobster]

If the guy is gonna cause you pain, you clearly have no intention of dancing with the guy, ever, so do you care whether or not he thinks you're rude? Unless you think he's gonna go around telling people how rude you are? Go ahead and dance with the best dancer! :)
I've thought of that, but in practice it's very difficult to do something that you know is so offensive to so many people.

Personally I agree with mamboqueen - I don't think this should be so much of an issue. It's really just pretending that all leaders are equal and equally fun to dance with; but that is not true and I don't really see the sense in an etiquette that pretends it is. You're not prevented from going on a date with guy B after turning down guy A, so why should you be for a dance?

But since I know lots of leaders feel it's very offensive, I find the etiquette difficult to breach. It doesn't come up frequently because I usually say yes to dance requests, but it has once or twice in instances like this - where I've already danced with the guy A in question and I know he's a twister/yanker/stepper.

And yes, it is annoying to have to sit out a good song just because the first guy who happened to ask me was one of those.

[Catarina]

Just this weekend, I was declining offers to dance bachata, as I was pretty tired and didn't know any of the askers as dance buddies. I was standing to the side, a great song came on next in the bachata mix, and another gentleman came up to me, and asked if I wanted to dance. I gave my "i'm tired, so sorry" face, and he asked again, "but do you want to dance?" Yes was the honest answer at that point. Different lead, different song, and I wanted to dance no matter how tired i was. We're all entitled to a change of opinion, right? And it was some great bachata too, I might add!

[WorksForShoes]

It seems to me that a lot of etiquette is about establishing social norms that allow for the saving of face by all parties. For example, the instructive but probably apocryphal story of [insert high ranking personage here] who noticed a person of lesser rank at the dinner table mistakenly drinking from a finger bowl, who responded by drinking from his/her own. It isn't about enforcing certain behavior but more about establishing a code that allows everyone to preserve dignity.

Therefore, it is rude to turn down a person's request for a dance and then immediately hop out onto the floor with someone else because it is tantamount to telling the first person the denial was personal -- it might have been, but this is etiquette, not absolute honesty.

Conversely, it is rude to "force" a person to dance -- to say "oh, sure you are!" to protests that "but I'm not comfortable dancing Viennese in public yet." It is rude to ignore obvious non-verbal cues that the person is not available (for this song, for the night, whatever) -- such as being deeply involved in a conversation or being physically attached to an SO. That person is already saying they are not available for a dance, so the asker should respect that. We all know how to change our body language to look receptive.

Additionally, I think there is a bit of a social contract in place when two people consent to dance. Both parties are saying they will try to make the dance as pleasant for the other as possible. Thus, the leader is implicitly saying he will not take a follower unfamiliar to him and start the dance with an upper level move or one that she needs to "know" in order to follow. He is also saying he will not make the follower feel bad about failure to communicate (which is what failure to follow is), and that he won't keep leading the same thing over and over, getting progressively snippier, if she isn't able for whatever reason to follow it. The follower, on the other hand, is promising to pay attention and try to the best of her ability to follow what is lead -- even if that is a whole song of box steps and forward basics, no fair looking bored, talking to others on the dance floor, window shopping others' dresses and shoes, or demanding moves that she would like to do.

I think this is the etiquette implicit at a social. I love Chris's idea of a practice dance that explicitly has different etiquette -- this is a night for trying new moves, working things out with partners, offering suggestions and taking criticisms. The agreement here would be to share knowledge, not to save face, so it would be a different social contract.

[Ron Obvious]

We all know how to change our body language to look receptive.

I liked what you wrote as a whole, but I don't think this statement is true.

[WorksForShoes]

Ron Obvious, you're probably right that that was too much of a blanket statement. But I do think it is fairly intutive that if we want to be asked to dance, we tend to look up with that "oh! a mambo!" happy look on our faces, look around the room, maybe make sure that we don't have anything that looks time consuming in our hands, like a plate full of chili nacho dip and chips. Conversely, if we are thinking "rats, a mambo!" we tend to look down meaningfully into our beverage, engage in a conversation, maybe grip the hand of our SO or shove our own hands into our pockets. So some of the body language just happens naturally.

[Peaches]

It seems to me that a lot of etiquette is about establishing social norms that allow for the saving of face by all parties. For example, the instructive but probably apocryphal story of [insert high ranking personage here] who noticed a person of lesser rank at the dinner table mistakenly drinking from a finger bowl, who responded by drinking from his/her own. It isn't about enforcing certain behavior but more about establishing a code that allows everyone to preserve dignity.

Therefore, it is rude to turn down a person's request for a dance and then immediately hop out onto the floor with someone else because it is tantamount to telling the first person the denial was personal -- it might have been, but this is etiquette, not absolute honesty.

Conversely, it is rude to "force" a person to dance -- to say "oh, sure you are!" to protests that "but I'm not comfortable dancing Viennese in public yet." It is rude to ignore obvious non-verbal cues that the person is not available (for this song, for the night, whatever) -- such as being deeply involved in a conversation or being physically attached to an SO. That person is already saying they are not available for a dance, so the asker should respect that. We all know how to change our body language to look receptive.

Additionally, I think there is a bit of a social contract in place when two people consent to dance. Both parties are saying they will try to make the dance as pleasant for the other as possible. Thus, the leader is implicitly saying he will not take a follower unfamiliar to him and start the dance with an upper level move or one that she needs to "know" in order to follow. He is also saying he will not make the follower feel bad about failure to communicate (which is what failure to follow is), and that he won't keep leading the same thing over and over, getting progressively snippier, if she isn't able for whatever reason to follow it. The follower, on the other hand, is promising to pay attention and try to the best of her ability to follow what is lead -- even if that is a whole song of box steps and forward basics, no fair looking bored, talking to others on the dance floor, window shopping others' dresses and shoes, or demanding moves that she would like to do.

I think this is the etiquette implicit at a social. I love Chris's idea of a practice dance that explicitly has different etiquette -- this is a night for trying new moves, working things out with partners, offering suggestions and taking criticisms. The agreement here would be to share knowledge, not to save face, so it would be a different social contract.Bravo!!!

[Gssh]

You're not prevented from going on a date with guy B after turning down guy A, so why should you be for a dance?

Hmm, in my social circle this is actually frowned upon - i remember quite a few conversations with guy A's that ran along the lines of "And she told me that it was not me, but her, and that she needed some time for herself and was not looking for a date right now, and the next day i saw her making out with guy B". Or "Yah, she just broke up with A, and two hours later she is already dating B".

And besides, the big problem in dancing is that you still want to go on dates with A after you turned her down. I never turn a follower down without giving her her a reason why i turn her down (I promised a dance, i am taking a break, i want to dance another song with her), and then i try to make sure that i actually go back and dance with her later. Just like in dating i know that if i dump her in a bad way we are not going to be friends later - and the dance equivalent of getting my stuff thrown out on the street is to never be able to dance with her, or any of her friends again.

Gssh

[wooh]

Funny thing happened at one social. End of night, I'd worked a 12 hour shift that day and not gotten much sleep the night before, so at that point, I was sooooo exhausted, I just couldn't dance anymore. Song comes on, I'd refused my husband, refused the studio owner. And then this one guy that's a decent lead but sooooo shy about asking women to dance asked me. Even though I was tired, I'd have said yes to him just because I'm soooo happy when he gets up the nerve to ask any girl. And I said no because I'd refused two guys, as etiquette says that I should. But the guys I'd refused, they wouldn't care, as THEY get happy to see this guy ask a girl to dance. It's funny how we get caught up in etiquette, and then realize that the feelings etiquette is designed to protect, it just ends up not working as well as common sense would. But in the split second you have to make a decision, etiquette is there, and common sense sometimes takes a bit to decide.

[noobster]

Hmm, in my social circle this is actually frowned upon - i remember quite a few conversations with guy A's that ran along the lines of "And she told me that it was not me, but her, and that she needed some time for herself and was not looking for a date right now, and the next day i saw her making out with guy B". Or "Yah, she just broke up with A, and two hours later she is already dating B".
Well, in your first example she lied (although it was a white lie really), and in the second example she was already in a relationship with A. But if A walks up to me out of the blue and asks me on a date, and I say no, he can't reasonably accuse me of poor etiquette because I say yes to a date with B tomorrow.

And besides, the big problem in dancing is that you still want to go on dates with A after you turned her down.
No, I don't. I very very rarely turn people down. If I do, usually it is not about the guy but because I am literally heading out the door (have already changed my shoes). The small percentage of guys I have turned down for reasons of prior injury (three of them I can think of) or left on the dance floor for reasons of complete creepiness (two - and by complete creepiness I mean one of them was staring at my chest and appeared to be touching his own genitals while dancing) are people I never, never want to dance with. Ever.

[Ron Obvious]

Ron Obvious, you're probably right that that was too much of a blanket statement. But I do think it is fairly intutive that if we want to be asked to dance, we tend to look up with that "oh! a mambo!" happy look on our faces, look around the room, maybe make sure that we don't have anything that looks time consuming in our hands, like a plate full of chili nacho dip and chips. Conversely, if we are thinking "rats, a mambo!" we tend to look down meaningfully into our beverage, engage in a conversation, maybe grip the hand of our SO or shove our own hands into our pockets. So some of the body language just happens naturally.

Yes, to some extent it's controllable; I was just thinking of what has happened to me (and probably a lot of other people), and that's when someone special asks you to dance/chat/movies/whatever, and then usually I get nervous and send the complete opposite signals. (Well I don't as much anymore, but certainly have previolsly.) . Furthermore I think a lot of people aren't realising what body signals they send.

[Gssh]

The small percentage of guys I have turned down for reasons of prior injury (three of them I can think of) or left on the dance floor for reasons of complete creepiness (two - and by complete creepiness I mean one of them was staring at my chest and appeared to be touching his own genitals while dancing) are people I never, never want to dance with. Ever.

Well, this is outside the realm where courtesy is required (well, nowadays it is - this would be a nice occasion for a duel :) ) - really, when i think about the etiquette of turning down it is in the context of "I am right now not in the mood to dance with her, but i want to keep on good terms with her so that we can dance again some other time" - and i assumed that this is the same for followers. I feel a follower would be perfectly within her rights to bruise a leader as much as he bruises her - thats just self defense - so they are actually getting off lightly with a bruise to their ego. I am all for being rude to leaders that start it - how else will they learn that their behavior is unacceptable?

GSH

[mamboqueen]

one of them was staring at my chest and appeared to be touching his own genitals while dancing)



This is where it's handy to have the post-it note that says "I'm a pervert" and you dance with him for 6 seconds and gently apply it to his back.

I'm with Peaches - ICK!

[Sagitta]

Oftentimes, a simple no isn't enough of a response though. Many guys will persist in asking, take my hand and try to pull me toward the floor. If I am genuinely tired, don't like the song, etc, I will say so and continue to give my regrets. Their persistence and rudeness backfires on most of them, as I want to dance with that person even less! I thnk I've just gotten in the habit of justifying my "no" as a result of these kinds of guys...to ward them off as efficiently as possible when I don't feel like dancing to a song/with that guy.There actually is an art to this. There are beginners who just hesitate as they don't know how. I've had people who wouldn't otherwise dance come with me because there friends pushed them and they had fun. The next time I asked them they jumped up.

As others mentioned earlier....if I ask someone and they say they aren't dancing tonight, or something similar, then I see them dancing with someone else... Strike off my dance card. I'll never ask them again as I detest being lied to.


I don't mind being simply told no thanks, I'll pass, or even I'm with someone if that's true. But never lie to me if you think you may want me to ask you to dance. And if come and ask me to dance at another time..they will get rejected. All liers do.

[fascination]

this is what I LOVE about being stronger than most men

[madmaximus]

. . .For example, the instructive but probably apocryphal story of [insert high ranking personage here] who noticed a person of lesser rank at the dinner table mistakenly drinking from a finger bowl, who responded by drinking from his/her own. . . .

If memory serves, the hostess was Queen Victoria, who famously at a state banquet, lifted her finger bowl, and nonchalantly drank all of its water.
I suppose she felt she had to, her guest of honor--the Shah of Persia, did it first.




m

[Catarina]

There actually is an art to this. There are beginners who just hesitate as they don't know how. I've had people who wouldn't otherwise dance come with me because there friends pushed them and they had fun. The next time I asked them they jumped up.

As others mentioned earlier....if I ask someone and they say they aren't dancing tonight, or something similar, then I see them dancing with someone else... Strike off my dance card. I'll never ask them again as I detest being lied to.


I don't mind being simply told no thanks, I'll pass, or even I'm with someone if that's true. But never lie to me if you think you may want me to ask you to dance. And if come and ask me to dance at another time..they will get rejected. All liers do.

And I am very conscious of being consistent in what I say. If i say no to dancing a bachata with a guy, I do articulate, "no bachata for me tonight, but for salsa/chachacha later?". And then I continue to decline bachata offers. I say what I mean as a general rule. And if I say that I'm too tired at that point, I do sit out a few songs or go get water. I can think of 2 times in the last 6 months that it has happened that I said no to a dance, and ended up dancing with another guy to that dance later on.

My comments were more in reference to those guys without the same sense of etiquette that you're describing, as the plain yet polite no is not sufficient and it becomes an awkwardly barely audible mini-struggle on the edge of the dance floor because my polite "no thank you" with a smile wasn't clear enough.
I get what you're saying about the need to prompt some folks though & agree that in some situations, prodding is needed to get somebody onto the dance floor. Most of the time, I'm not one of them though!

[dancedude314]

All I ask for is clarity from a declined offer to dance. If the woman doesn't want to dance with me at all, for whatever reason, a simple no thank you is sufficient. If she does want to dance, but wants to rest at the moment, then she should say something to that effect. End of story--no need to make the interaction any more complicated.

[thespina13]

Worst breach of etiquette. My old dance "teacher", about whom I complained copiously back in the days of being a commoner at DF, would get on the dance floor with a new salsera, was completely wasted at the time, and would get so frustrated if she couldn't follow his ego-trip of a dance that he would leave her in the middle of the dance, standing on the floor, and GO AND GET A FAVOURITE FOLLOW to "show her how it's done"!!! He'd then finish the song with this favourite, not even acknowledging the previous partner, and walk off the floor.

[sac76]

Worst breach of etiquette. My old dance "teacher", about whom I complained copiously back in the days of being a commoner at DF, would get on the dance floor with a new salsera, was completely wasted at the time, and would get so frustrated if she couldn't follow his ego-trip of a dance that he would leave her in the middle of the dance, standing on the floor, and GO AND GET A FAVOURITE FOLLOW to "show her how it's done"!!! He'd then finish the song with this favourite, not even acknowledging the previous partner, and walk off the floor.

thats plain rude and coming from a teacher it makes it even worse...im not sure what makes him call himself a teacher? it shows imamturity on his part

[thespina13]

Which is precisely why I put "teacher" in quotation marks. He was a self-involved loser.

[Sabor]

Which is precisely why I put "teacher" in quotation marks. He was a self-involved loser.

maybe he taught 'self inolvement' .. u never know they teach the weirdest things these days.. eh

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think something we tend to forget is that old etiquette rules didn't stand on their own. Instead they were part of a system: training in rules and also skills from childhood, most situations accessable by invitation only, and if it came to it, the occasional duel.
Sabers, at dawn?
No. A dance-off, a la Ben Stiller.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

No, I don't think so. If you ask someone to dance and they say no, they should sit out the dance, but you can go on to ask someone else.
Etiquette may or may not allow the asker to continue asking others after an initial rejection. Regardless, I think subsequent askees might feel like the kid who got picked last for kickball.

[elisedance]

Etiquette may or may not allow the asker to continue asking others after an initial rejection. Regardless, I think subsequent askees might feel like the kid who got picked last for kickball.

Not necessarily - there are many reasons surely why someone asks a person to dance with preference only one factor (return of favor, old friend, owe mortgage to...)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Not necessarily - there are many reasons surely why someone asks a person to dance with preference only one factor (return of favor, old friend, owe mortgage to...)
So a solution might be to demonstrate a lack of preference by starting at one point and asking one's way along the side of the dance floor.

[waltzgirl]

Etiquette may or may not allow the asker to continue asking others after an initial rejection. Regardless, I think subsequent askees might feel like the kid who got picked last for kickball.

Depends how it's done. If someone contorts himself to ask the woman behind me to dance and when she turns him down, turns to me, that does look like scond choice. But if a guy walks up to a table, asks the nearest woman and she says no, I don't have any bad feelings about being asked next (I guess it's a version of your suggestion of working around the room one by one). Or you can go to a different part of the room and ask someone else. Chances are they weren't watching the previous turndown anyway.

Most women would rather be second choice than sit out.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Depends how it's done. If someone contorts himself to ask the woman behind me to dance and when she turns him down, turns to me, that does look like scond choice. But if a guy walks up to a table, asks the nearest woman and she says no, I don't have any bad feelings about being asked next (I guess it's a version of your suggestion of working around the room one by one). Or you can go to a different part of the room and ask someone else. Chances are they weren't watching the previous turndown anyway.

Most women would rather be second choice than sit out.
If a guy obviously asks you as a second choice, does that waive your social obligation, allowing you to decline him and then go dance with someone else? After all, you'd just be telling him that he's not your first choice, either. ;)

I wonder if guys might prefer to sit out rather than be second. You know there's that whole thing about many guys getting upset that they weren't a girl's "first experience". :rolleyes: :lol:

[SlowDancer]

If a guy obviously asks you as a second choice, does that waive your social obligation, allowing you to decline him and then go dance with someone else? After all, you'd just be telling him that he's not your first choice, either. ;)

I wonder if guys might prefer to sit out rather than be second. You know there's that whole thing about many guys getting upset that they weren't a girl's "first experience". :rolleyes: :lol:

Interesting question. :confused:

[quixotedlm]

Friend/really advanced dancer to me: You see that girl in pink? She is a beginner, but really feels good to dance with. Do dance with her sometime...
Me: Ok, I'll ask her in a bit.
[A few minutes later]
Me [to Pinkie]: Would you like to dance?
Pinkie: Err... I really need a minute to recover. Can we dance in a bit?
Me: ok...
[After a song]
[Pinkie is sitting by the side, talkign with a Dude]
Me: Would you like to dance?
Pinkie: <Starts to say something tentative..>
Dude: Do you mind? We are in the middle of a conversation...
[Me wants to punch him]
Pinkie: Well, actually I really need a bit more rest now I think...
Me: Oh well, sorry..

[Me makes mental notes -
- Pinkie added to DND list. Remember to tell her why if she ever asks you to dance...
- Dude will never get the time of the day from me,
or a CPR if he were dying...
]

Sigh, I really wish I had the presence of mind to give them a good retort on the spot... I'm growing too soft and civilized... :|

[fascination]

seems wise to leave that alone Q

[Joe]

Sigh, I really wish I had the presence of mind to give them a good retort on the spot... I'm growing too soft and civilized... :|
"Well, now it looks like you have the rest of your life to rest."

[wooh]

Poor etiquette in a man being PAID to be friendly at the dance parties:
A month or so ago, we were at a party at one of the studios, mixer is going, and one of the instructors there very obviously and purposefully skipped me. Which was an amazingly rude thing to do IMO. So then last night, we go there. Another mixer. We get to him in line. And I say, "Oh, not going to skip me this time?" Him (in his smarmy accent, "Ohhhh, I would NEVER skip youuuu." Me, "Really? You did a few weeks back, you were quite rude about it too." "Oh, you must be mistaken, I would never skip a beautiful lady." (More smarm.) "Oh, you definitely did. It was quite rude." Him:"Well I must have been drunk, I'll make it up to you." End of line, I roll my eyes and walk off. (Because I'm just not charmed by smarmy "I have an accent so I'm soooo charming" mularkey like that.)
So he decides to "make it up to me" and asks me to dance. So I figure, fine, start walking to the floor with him, and HE ANSWERS HIS CELL PHONE. And I'm trying to walk off because that is just too over the top and I'm not desperate enough to dance that I'll stand there waiting on a phone call, but he grabs my hand and won't let go, and I'm just so shocked that a man could be THAT rude that I figure I'll wait for him to finish so I can tell him how rude it is. Finishes his call, 30 seconds or so later. And I'm just, "Well aren't you the picture of etiquette?" Man never apologizes for that. Then after dancing, he's all, "You aren't smiling?" "No, one ok dance doesn't make up for you being very rude on 2 separate occasions, so why exactly would I be smiling?" "Oh, what do you mean I was rude?" And I'm just so annoyed at that point, I walked away.
One, just because you're a dance instructor with an accent, I'm not charmed by you. Maybe some of the really desperate women are, but I'm not.
Two, you aren't THAT great of a dancer.
Three, you're a rude nitwit that I think very well may be drunk.
Four, YOU ARE SMARMY.

Ahhhh, that felt good to get out.

[Joe]

It's only a big deal because you made it one.

[fascination]

my goodness....maybe I'm getting old...sounds like most men to me...and probably rather innocent....don't get me wrong, not givng him an award for sensitivity, but wondering how many other men would pass that test with a better result...shrug...love dh and pro and could see both doing something like that...joe too...lol, guess I'm just one of those desperate women...accent or no accent

[quixotedlm]

and probably rather innocent....don't get me wrong, not givng him an award for sensitivity, but wondering how many other men would pass that test with a better result...shrug

sounds innocent to me.

easy to pass with a better result though. taking a call and having her wait is rude... if you must take the call, why not just apologize for it?

[quixotedlm]

Friend/really advanced dancer to me: You see that girl in pink? She is a beginner, but really feels good to dance with. Do dance with her sometime...
Me: Ok, I'll ask her in a bit.
[A few minutes later]
Me [to Pinkie]: Would you like to dance?
Pinkie: Err... I really need a minute to recover. Can we dance in a bit?
Me: ok...
[After a song]
[Pinkie is sitting by the side, talkign with a Dude]
Me: Would you like to dance?
Pinkie: <Starts to say something tentative..>
Dude: Do you mind? We are in the middle of a conversation...
[Me wants to punch him]
Pinkie: Well, actually I really need a bit more rest now I think...
Me: Oh well, sorry..

[Me makes mental notes -
- Pinkie added to DND list. Remember to tell her why if she ever asks you to dance...
- Dude will never get the time of the day from me,
or a CPR if he were dying...
]

Sigh, I really wish I had the presence of mind to give them a good retort on the spot... I'm growing too soft and civilized... :|



Funny thing... A friend asked me to teach with her yesterday, because her regular partner was out of town in a hurry. I thought it was a demo-doll gig and agreed, but turned out to be more substantial than that. I had to decide on what figure to teach as well.. and I let her to most of the talking (not that I kept my mouth shut - but she was the 'real' teacher, and I deferred to her mostly.. but that wasn't the point). Dude was in my class... When the class was done, he came by and said thanks to the substitute teahcer (me!).. clearly, he remembered the past incident... apparent, a teacher deserves more respect than a random guy on the dance floor.. :rolleyes:

And oh, this was the first class I've taught ever. I had a good time, and was quite pleased with how well I could teach :) But thankfully, it was not a beginners class. If it were a beginners class, I'd not have done too well I think...

[anp73ga31]

It's only a big deal because you made it one.

Well I can say(since I was there) that there were lots of women he danced with there, and he only did that to her(both incidents), so what is she supposed to think? He's never done anything like that to the rest of us(well other than the smarmy part). And there are 3 other paid instructors there who are paid to dance with us and not a one of them ever acts like he does; they act happy to dance with you and they dont try to charm you, just to dance with you or make you laugh if they think you are tense. As for the smarmy part, its true to form..he is one of those guys that thinks if he says complimentary things to you in his spanish accent that you will swoon over him(cross Julio Igelsias with a gigilo and thats what he is like) and not notice that he isnt that great of a dancer. Oh wait, forgot to mention that he stares at your boobs the entire time too... :rolleyes:

[fascination]

imo...boob staring=not okay
taking a call on the way to dancing with a lady=not okay
missing a lady when having danced w/ others=give benefit of the doubt
spanish accent=yum

[wooh]

In response to quixotedlm:
"Well, now it looks like you have the rest of your life to rest."
You give him a retort.

In response to me:
It's only a big deal because you made it one.

Are you only sympathetic to the victims of bad etiquette when they're men?

Thing is, it wasn't innocent when he skipped me in the mixer. He said he wouldn't dance with me as he went to the next woman in line. But no big deal right? That's perfectly acceptable behavior right? If quixote were in a mixer and a woman told him she wouldn't dance with him, would you offer him a smart aleck retort to use or would he be told it's no big deal?

So yeah, it was a bit of a big deal to me that some smarmy guy thought he was too good to dance with me one night. Especially when the people that own the studio (and seem like really nice people) are paying him to dance and be nice to their customers. So not only does he pull that rude behavior on me, but then he decides to have a cell phone conversation while making me stand in front of him instead of dancing with someone else or resting my feet.

In the grand scheme of things, one guy being a creep isn't a huge deal. But when I think about how I'll suffer through my toes being stomped on by clueless men, and have beginner guys try to teach me an underarm turn in swing without telling them it's not that I don't know how, but that they didn't lead it.... Well, it makes me a little bit angry to be treated that way when I try really hard to be nice to the guys at the dances. And I have every right to be angry that someone treated me rudely instead of with the respect that I deserve. I ranted about it to get it out of my system, and I figured a thread about bad etiquette was a good place to rant about someone's bad etiquette. Don't worry, in the future I'll remember it's only a big deal if a woman is rude, when men are rude it's only a big deal if I make it one.:rolleyes:

[fascination]

he SAID it??????...with a straight face????

[wooh]

Yes. Said it. Meant it. Don't know what his problem with me that night was, but whatever. His loss. (Especially since he likes looking at boobs, and I'm taller than him and have bigger boobs than most.) It's not that I wanted to dance with him, because like I said, he's not that great. But you just don't do that!

[quixotedlm]

In response to quixotedlm:

You give him a retort.



What's the point? Idiots can seldom be made to understand that they are one, because by virtue of being an idiot, they lack the ability to comprehend their own idiocy... So the wise man pretends to listen to them, nods his head and ignores the words... :rolleyes:

[spectator]

You can give me some of your bad ettiquette any time ;)...

[fascination]

I have always like the adage: he who argues with a fool makes two

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I have always like the adage: he who argues with a fool makes two
I see. Use your razor-sharp wit to cleave the fool in half. :nodding sagely:

[samina]

I have always like the adage: he who argues with a fool makes two

yep. similar to another one, too: don't try to figure out insanity... you'll only hurt yourself.

[fascination]

I see. Use your razor-sharp wit to cleave the fool in half. :nodding sagely:
um..no...ignore the fool