A tray of red paint...

[Chris Stratton]

I seem to recall many years ago watching olympic figure skaters trace patterns on the ice for a panel of juges. I believe these were called compulsory figures or something, and were later elminated to make the whole affair more TV-friendly.

I would love to see the blackpool finalists walked through a tray of red paint onto a prepared floor and proceeded to execute a series of basic figures in each dance, as I think this might be quite revealing and settle just a few arguments. (I'm thinking more in terms of a reference for the rest of us than a way to determine who should win)

[Angelo]

I think it would cause more problems than it solves. Some kind of multi-angle video setup wouild be better.

[chachagirlie]

Chris wrote:
I seem to recall many years ago watching olympic figure skaters trace patterns on the ice for a panel of juges. I believe these were called compulsory figures or something, and were later elminated to make the whole affair more TV-friendly.

I would love to see the blackpool finalists ...

I love the idea of compulsories...at least for rounds leading up to the finals...and then let anything go!

Gymnastics used to be handled the same way as skating in the sense of having compulsories...e.g. everyone had to perform the same floor routine (to the same music...single instrument, usually piano), at a specific level. I saw it as being very fair...judges were judging you on how well you executed the moves as compared to another gymnast doing the exact same thing.

I've always wondered why dancesport didn't have compulsories...perhaps our sport sees the "syllabus levels" as compulsories?

[Chris Stratton]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about compulsories as a means of picking a winner, but I would find them a very interesting reference as an observer.

[DancingMommy]

Bumping this up since it is piquing my interest.

[DancingMommy]

I think that some kind of compulsory event should be in place for every level as a factor in determining who moves on and who doesn't. Not necessarily syllabus, but just a fewe "required elements".

[lynn]

What are compulsory figures?
Compulsory figures are variations on the figure 8, where the skater attempts to skate a perfectly round circle on a perfectly clean edge, and then do the same on the other foot. When you start to learn figures, there are four of them to learn: forward and backward edges on both inside and outside edges. The next step is to learn to put a turn at the top of each circle, which again has to be perfectly placed and executed on perfectly clean edges. There are also figures that involve tracing a serpentine pattern on a three-lobed figure. Figures are skated on circles 12 to 15 feet in diameter except for the group of figures called loops which are skated on much smaller circles. The hardest kinds of figures include things like paragraph double threes, where you skate two large circles with four turns all on one foot with one push, then take another push and retrace the figure on the other foot. When you're done, the judges come out on the ice and peer closely at the tracing you leave behind to make sure that your circles are perfectly round and your turns are perfectly placed, and that you didn't scrape or wobble anywhere on the figure or commit other horrible faults like doing the turns on the wrong edges or making their shape too deep or too shallow or too crooked.
Figures take an incredible amount of body control and patience to master. In the "old days", skaters used to spend hours every day working on them. Figure practice is called "patch" because each skater was assigned their own patch of ice on the rink to skate on.

Compulsory figures used to be worth 60% of the score in figure skating, but after 1968 they were progressively devalued and finally eliminated completely from international competition after the 1990 season. In the US, figures competitions were held as separate events between 1991 and 1999, but those, too, have now been phased out as few skaters take the time to learn figures any more and it is hard to find rinks that offer patch sessions.

Source: http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/faq/technical.shtml#Q10

[DancingMommy]

That's a shame. You'd think that perfecting the technique of being able to show clean edges, etc would be valued. But noooooooooo.... It's how many quads you can do....

[alemana]

the compulsory figures in skating (hence 'figure skating'!) were trashed to make the sport more television-friendly. younger, less schooled skaters were doing more acrobatics and better jumps, where the seasoned skaters were better at the technical elements like figures. which does the TV audience prefer? which gets ratings? triple spins, of course.

dancesport is actually moving in the same direction, even further into athleticism and flash-n-trash and away from fundamental, measurable foundational skills.

[DancingMommy]

Well, I say PHOOEY on that.

[macha]

dancesport is actually moving in the same direction, even further into athleticism and flash-n-trash and away from fundamental, measurable foundational skills.

I'm not even INTO it that far and I can see THAT, just by watching the tan/fat/costume/flash threads on here and other forums!

Sad. What ever happened to actual talent... not just in dance, but in ANYthing?

[Another Elizabeth]

I remember watching the Winter Olympics the year they were eliminated. Someone (I think it was Katerina Witt) actually started her freestyle with a compulsory figure. Sad to say, I don't think the judges rewarded the gesture.

[dTas]

dancesport is actually moving in the same direction, even further into athleticism and flash-n-trash and away from fundamental, measurable foundational skills.

so thats why the girl won on "Dance with the Stars". i see! :shock:

compulsoraries would be nice but just imagine how long comps would then run. they're long enough as it is.

[SDsalsaguy]

I know there was at least one comp in Japan a couple of years ago where each coule had to start with the exact same sequence of patterns (albeit not a long one) before commencing with their own choreography. It sticks out in my mind as I remember watching some world amateur finalists trying to figure out what some of those specific figures even were... :lol:

[DancingMommy]

dancesport is actually moving in the same direction, even further into athleticism and flash-n-trash and away from fundamental, measurable foundational skills.

so thats why the girl won on "Dance with the Stars". i see! :shock:

compulsoraries would be nice but just imagine how long comps would then run. they're long enough as it is.

Think about this though...

What if say in a level you have to dance *at least* 3 recognizable basics and then 1 or 2 other figures from that level. Everyone would have to have at least those elements within their choreography so it didn't become all F-N-T (flash'n'trash)...

[alemana]

what i love is seeing top pro's dance figures i recognize... it gives me an idea of what the step is supposed to look like, something to shoot for. when i see a routine where i can't identify antyhing they're doing - i don't see a fan, i don't see a hockey stick- i am a little disappointed.

[Angelo]

what i love is seeing top pro's dance figures i recognize... it gives me an idea of what the step is supposed to look like, something to shoot for. when i see a routine where i can't identify antyhing they're doing - i don't see a fan, i don't see a hockey stick- i am a little disappointed.

I agree......which is why the Open Professional Basic Competition was the officially second coolest thing I saw at The Manhattan Dancesport Championships last month

[alemana]

ah ****, i wondered what that was. wish i had stayed to see it! hopefully they have them at other events...

[Angelo]

ah $#!t, i wondered what that was. wish i had stayed to see it! hopefully they have them at other events...

Boy, you missed a good one. Maxim Khozevnikov and Yulia Zagoroutchenko (sp?) won three championships that weekend but it was their performance in this particular one that really had me grinning like an idiot.

[Joe]

Bah, red paint? We complain about Latin dancers mucking up the floor with oil--how's it gonna be when it's all covered with red footprints? :P

[standardgirl]

Although figures have been removed from figure skating competitions, figure skaters are still working on the figures though, just in a different way. We don't learn the "official" figures to do for the old tests anymore as they don't exist in today's skating world, but all skaters sure at one point or another have worked on skating on either the red circle or the red line in the rink. I remember working on skating "S" on both sides of the red straight line - on one foot switching between inside and outside edge, forward and backward, and then on the other foot. The collegiate sycornized skating team always warms up with skating the figure "8" on the red circle. Coaches at the rink I used to skate always have skaters work on figures anyways. It helps skaters tremendiously in the test called "Field Moves." And the ability to master edges also makes jumping a lot easier and cleaner. You will even see coaches with a permanant marker drawing on the ice in the rink really often.

I really haven't seen anything similar done in ballroom dancing though.
But, I also don't think drawing line on a dance floor will work....it's not like the ice, where the drawing just disapear after a few hours......

[alemana]

a ballroom coach i know, who is also a skating coach, can talk all day about how skating has changed since the compulsory rounds were eliminated. the change has been precipitous.

[redhead]

You will even see coaches with a permanant marker drawing on the ice in the rink really often.

I really haven't seen anything similar done in ballroom dancing though.
But, I also don't think drawing line on a dance floor will work....it's not like the ice, where the drawing just disapear after a few hours......

I have put sticky tape on the floor (for myself too, but it especially helps little kids) - and it doesn't leave residue

[scullystwin42]

Compulsory still exists for gymnastics - just not at the higher levels. You have to go through 7 levels of compulsory routines before you even get to try competing with optional moves. It can take quite a few years to get through those levels.

and they are BORING to watch - same routines, same music over and over and over. My parents were bored, and they were there to watch me!

I think it's ok they took them away in gymnastics at the higher levels - because most gymnasts spent quite some time moving through the compulsories.

As for dancing, I guess i thought the syllabus work was similar to the compulsory gymnastics. a set of standard figures, in a standard order. But at my studio, they never did any sort of syllabus practice, so i get all confused when i read about them.

[standardgirl]

Oh, in figure skating today, there is actually an event called Compulsory.
This is the lowest level one may compete other than the basic skill competitions. This is before the pre-perliminary level. In Compulsory, the skater only skates on half the rink and there is NO music. The skater is only allowed to so half jumps and the early single jumps. There are also limitations for spins and connecting moves.

No, it is not done on the red lines/circles, but since there is NO music, and the skater is only on half the rink, the majority of the focus is given to the technique, the cleaness and the quality of the edge and footwork.