Confused about 'ballroom' East Coast Swing

[FlyingScottie]

So... I've read all the threads I can on ECS and I'm still confused!

In my studio group classes we were taught 'rock step-triple step-triple step' as the basic move.

In my private lesson with my teacher, he then tells me that above ^^ is the JIVE step, and ballroom ECS basic is 'rock step-step & slide-step & slide'.

Of course, I'm not doubting the experts word.. but if even studios and teachers don't stick to the same basic step, what's a learner to do???

[ktia85]

The way I have learned it, ECS is "rock step - triple step - triple step". From what I understand, since I havent really learned the jive the step is "rock step - chasse to the left - chasse to the right"

[fascination]

this is probably best addressed in ballroom since you are asking about ballroom ecs...having said that...some instructors start with the rock (as with jive... which is what your group class is doing), some start with the triples ...but it is virtually the same for most intents and purposes...but I have, as of yet, never heard your instructor's definition...which sounds a good deal more like jitterbug or some sort of other single swing action to me... ballroom ecs basic has two triples and a rock regardless of whether you put the rock at the beginning or the end AFAIK

[Caravaggio]

I was taught that there was "single", "double" and "triple" ecs, but the timing and patterns are largely the same, it's just a variation. I've seen it taught different ways. When we were doing our monthly swing dances at the senior center a while back, a lot of the older folks (70s and up) would do the single step, just because it's easier and requires substantially less energy.

[FlyingScottie]

Could a moderator please allow me to post two links so I can show eactly what I am talking about - pretty pretty please???;)

[mjnemeth]

I was taught that there was "single", "double" and "triple" ecs, but the timing and patterns are largely the same, it's just a variation. I've seen it taught different ways. When we were doing our monthly swing dances at the senior center a while back, a lot of the older folks (70s and up) would do the single step, just because it's easier and requires substantially less energy.

Yes I was taught that there was "single", "double" and "triple" ecs too.
Also learned single as both rock step step step and as step step rock step.

I triple to slower song and single to faster songs.

Once you've learned ECS you can get confused by west coast, baboa and lindy hop(though I do use a lindy spin in ECS) :) LOL

[FlyingScottie]

If you are familiar with ballroom dancers (dot) com site - go look up their open basic position video.

THAT is what private instructor taught me, which to me is different that a triple step, where we were taught after rock step to open to the side for the triple.... here she is closed after the rock step - see?

[mjnemeth]

Of course, I'm not doubting the experts word.. but if even studios and teachers don't stick to the same basic step, what's a learner to do???

Oh my get used to it!
Salsa can be on 1 2 or 3 beat . Some balloom is taught with a prep step (or not) . Ive learn quickstep starting on both the right and left (PS Im male ) . I think the british (euopeans?) men start on the right foot or is that international stye/
There is American smooth , the 3 level bronze silver and gold , international style . I'm not sure I got that all right.
I get confused!

Don't be discouraged and at least now you know so don't be suprised ;)
Enjoy yourself !

[fascination]

is is possible that we are simply talking here about how far from te standing leg the first step of the chasse happens to be?...because that can vary for a variety of reasons :)

[Spitfire]

and ballroom ECS basic is 'rock step-step & slide-step & slide'.

That's Double Step from the looks of it and ECS as I've always understood it refers to single, double and triple.

ECS triple step is generally taught as triple step, triple step, rock step, but often it's taught by beginning with the rock step; same for either single or double. I guess it just depends on locality, and which studio and teacher, but this is the first I've heard of double step being the "ballroom" ECS.

[GGinrhinestones]

So... I've read all the threads I can on ECS and I'm still confused!

In my studio group classes we were taught 'rock step-triple step-triple step' as the basic move.

In my private lesson with my teacher, he then tells me that above ^^ is the JIVE step, and ballroom ECS basic is 'rock step-step & slide-step & slide'.

Of course, I'm not doubting the experts word.. but if even studios and teachers don't stick to the same basic step, what's a learner to do???

Sounds to me like the same basic "step" - but the difference is the explanation, or technique. "Step & slide" sounds to me like your teacher explaining ECS technique as the "swingy" or "earthy" action of a triple step as opposed to the knee/bouncy action of a jive. They're both triple steps, but they're two different ways of doing a triple step based on the "style" of swing. At a very basic (i.e. studio group class/intro) level, they're basically the same thing. Again, just reading this description, it sounds like your private teacher is just giving you the technique differences between the two.

As for the rock step, I was originally taught that (in competition, at least, and at the bronze level) ECS starts with the triple while jive starts with the rock step. I have since learned that that is a convenient, but often inaccurate, simplification.

[FlyingScottie]

Sounds to me like the same basic "step" - but the difference is the explanation, or technique. "Step & slide" sounds to me like your teacher explaining ECS technique as the "swingy" or "earthy" action of a triple step as opposed to the knee/bouncy action of a jive. They're both triple steps, but they're two different ways of doing a triple step based on the "style" of swing. At a very basic (i.e. studio group class/intro) level, they're basically the same thing. Again, just reading this description, it sounds like your private teacher is just giving you the technique differences between the two.

I think you hit the nail on the head here... it just seemed like a completely different step to me, even though he insisted it was just a point of technique :headwall:

Thank you everyone.. the whole swing/jive/ECS/WCS is very confusing to a newbie!

[tangotime]

I was taught that there was "single", "double" and "triple" ecs, but the timing and patterns are largely the same, it's just a variation.



Exactly.... the point of Triple and Single time is, to acommodate the varying tempi of the music ( double time is more of an expression, and usage, as in Tuck-ins for e.g. ) .

[tangotime]

.


baboa



BaLboa.

Only taught( as a general rule ) in Calif. and doesnt really resemble Swing either E or WC.

[tsb]

i submit that the issue is not so much the difference in syllabi as much as when an instructor either overtly emphasizes or implies that what is being taught is the only right way to do it.

richard powers at stanford puts it this way:

New research shows that when we're presented with any facts as absolute truths, even math and science, we tend to use them thoughtlessly, often making bad, inappropriate or limited decisions. But when we're presented with the same information in a conditional way ("Maybe it's so, but maybe it's also this other way."), we process the information, and we use the information, in smarter, more effective, and more creative ways.

Someone may reasonably argue, "Sure I can be flexible later, after I learn the basics of a dance. But in that first learning, I want to do it the one correct way, with all of the precise details."

And this is where Langer and others most strongly disagree. Optionality in that first exposure is especially important.


the "langer" referred to is ellen j. langer of the harvard university department of psychology. she specializes in the science and psychology of learning. and her


Most teaching unintentionally fosters mindlessness. Facts are typically presented as closed packages, without attention to perspective. Most of what we learn in school, at home, from television, and from nonfiction books, we may mindlessly accept because it's given to us in an unconditional form. The information is presented from a single perspective as though it is true, independent of context. It just is.

Scientists know that research results in findings that are probably true, given the context in which the work was tested. When these findings are reported by teachers or in textbooks, they are translated from probabilities into absolute statements that hide the uncertainty. Statements of probability are not only more accurate, they are also more interesting and engaging.

It's not just scientists who do this. One of the "basic skills" of teachers, and all lecturers, is the ability to take a large quantity of information and present it in bite-size pieces to students. For those of us who teach, reducing and organizing information becomes second nature. But facts, whether derived from science or not, are not context-free; their meaning and usefulness depend on the situation. Virtually all of our facts depend on context.

When we ignore perspective, we tend to confuse the stability of our mind-sets with the stability of the phenomenon. Things are constantly changing, whether we like it or not. And at any one moment they are different from different perspectives. Yet we hold them still in our minds, as if they were constant. We want to hold them as constant ideas, and we want to believe that the phenomena are constant. This is a part of human nature — an especially unhelpful part.

Learning the basics in a rote, unthinking manner almost ensures mediocrity. It also deprives learners of maximizing their own potential for more effective performance. And for enjoyment of the activity.




Langer points out that many people don't like not knowing with certainty. All of their school-learning has trained them to expect certainty, and to be told what the facts mean. So people are often affronted if they don't get the pre-digested form they expect. Especially if they've just spent almost a decade of their life learning under the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, where their teacher's priorities have been to "teach to the test." As a result, many students have come to believe that (1) There is only one correct answer to any question, and (2) Someone else will give them that answer – they can't come up with it on their own. Then in their first week of learning swing, they discover that if a swing move doesn't work out in their expected way, it will work out in another cool way. And they can come up with those ways themselves. It's often a double revelation.

i submit that if every instructor would state the following caveat: "we teach it this way, but you may find it being taught differently by someone else", there would be no confusion - and you might find students learning things more quickly.

[tangotime]

the "langer" referred to is ellen j. langer of the harvard university department of psychology.






.


As the " wag " put it, paraphrased. " Ah.. the place to go to ruin a good education " .

[opendoor]

Is triple or not a didactical (I mean what is best for beginners) or a stylistic question between ECS amd Jive, and their varieties?

[tangotime]

Is triple or not a didactical (I mean what is best for beginners) or a stylistic question between ECS amd Jive, and their varieties?


Like most dances, they are both hybrids . Both are "for" beginners primarily due to ( in most cases ) location and country of origin, that is, outside of the US there are very few places where one will find ECS being danced/taught .I do teach the Single time version here for my older age wise students as a watered down version of R and R .

In the chain school system, WCS for e.g. was virtually limited to the west coast schools, in the same franchises Bronze level social .

Jive is the late kid on the block, and its now ( like WCS ) taught more universally statesside ;depending upon ones goals, one may be a beginner in either and or both styles .

The advent of triple swing also may have much to with... 1.. the style of music popular at that period ( early50s ) and 2...the clientele that populated the chain schools in that period. It was more ,Im sure, a pragmatic decision.

To remember, the 40s were the era of " Bop " and that was most unsuitable for the general public over the age of 40 .

[opendoor]

In other words: the openers question is obsolete, anyway she has to learn everything between single and triple step, right?


And could you please give me a rough tree of ECS, english Jive, french Bop, ceRoc, and so on, or is it all the same in the end?

[Steve Pastor]

http://ballroomdancers.com/Dances/info.asp?sid=199 (http://ballroomdancers.com/Dances/info.asp?sid=199)

versus

http://youtu.be/M4_aCrJ2KAg (http://youtu.be/M4_aCrJ2KAg)

from FlyingScottie..

[Partner Dancer]

i submit that the issue is not so much the difference in syllabi as much as when an instructor either overtly emphasizes or implies that what is being taught is the only right way to do it.

...

i submit that if every instructor would state the following caveat: "we teach it this way, but you may find it being taught differently by someone else", there would be no confusion - and you might find students learning things more quickly.

The good instructors would/should distinguish the necessities
verses the optional/fluff. This is what helps the student
understand how to elect or reject the ways of various schools.
Unfortunately, few instructors are able to teach this way, even
once in a while, party because they were not taught that
way and partly because they just don't know. Some "coaches"
do a decent job of it.

For instance, some necessities are the ability to dance
on one's own feet, the goal of moving smoothly (even if
snappily), the usage of good timing, the maintenance of
good connection, etc..

As far as footwork in ECS, the important thing is to aim
for a nice body "bounce" that has more movement at
the feet than the head, all the while having the feet
"carrying" the body and head at the proper angles.
The typical variables are the amount of body swing
(which correlates to footwork/legwork such as distances
between steps), the amount of knee action, the
amount of topline bounce/swing, etc.. At some point,
with enough good practice, one should be able to strike
a balance between all the factors to start dancing very
comfortably without straining. This will take countless
hours of training (and perhaps even some injury), just
like in learning how to spin.

OTOH, there are plenty of "ECS" dancers that can
barely lift their feet/ankles off the floor, especially
as they age, but they have plenty of fun anyway.

[tangotime]

In other words: the openers question is obsolete, anyway she has to learn everything between single and triple step, right?


And could you please give me a rough tree of ECS, english Jive, french Bop, ceRoc, and so on, or is it all the same in the end?


1... Triple is probably the most common timing used, but, Single is needed if you wish to dance to faster tempo.


From a social partnership standpoint, one has to begin with Lindy.

War time brought on Jive( american style ) and then " Bop " early /mid50s followed by R and R.

The Ballroom style swing, statesside ( E and WCS ),was also being developed in that late 40s early 50s period ; and then Jive emerged in the early/mid 50s ,as a common addition to the English dance syllabi .

There are too many sub-genres to list, from Shag to Texas Push, all derivitives from the above antecedents.

As in all dance genres, new music brings "new " interpretations of old "standards " .

[opendoor]

Thanks a lot tt

but concerning

..War time brought on Jive( american style ) and then " Bop " early /mid50s followed by R and R...

Has jive as a term also been used in the america before reaching us?

And what about R and R. Always thought that the name was changed to BW?

[tangotime]

Thanks a lot tt

but concerning



Has jive as a term also been used in the america before reaching us?

And what about R and R. Always thought that the name was changed to BW?




The term " Jive ", is thought to have originated with the afro american street slang, as in , "you jive turkey ".. a compliment .

The usage of R and R as an identification, I dont believe will ever be defunct .

Its still taught in the U.K ,under the same "banner" .

[Steve Pastor]

I've been checking the notes I have from books through about 1970 (over a dozen), and, based on books written and published in the US, "jive" and "Boogie woogie", as dances. are not mentioned.

"East Coast Swing" and "Rock 'n' Roll" are so similar that I think they are just about the same dance. I din't see "East Coast Swing" used as the name of a dance, however. And I have only come across one use of the term in a 1961 text written in Los Angeles.

I've written this before, and will put it out there again, I think just about every author I've looked at taught single rhythm and double rhythm before going on to triples.

[tangotime]

"East Coast Swing" and "Rock 'n' Roll" are so similar that I think they are just about the same dance. I din't see "East Coast Swing" used as the name of a dance, however.

And I have only come across one use of the term in a 1961 text written in Los Angeles.






Hi Steve, Just to put the record straight, I taught ECS on the east coast prior to that date. There were A/M charts done for the E.C. where that was included ; and ECS and RnR , are different primarily in style .

Here are 2 other dances that were seperated by E and W.. Peabody only E and Balboa only W. .. both were in the Gold Syl.

[Steve Pastor]

Here are 2 other dances that were seperated by E and W.. Peabody only E and Balboa only W

This reminds me of Skippy Blair telling a story about her and Dean Collins dancing Peabody together. Skippy was thinking, man we are killing ourselves on this one, but neither of them would say, ok we should stop now.

It seems odd, though, that they would call it "East Coast Swing" on the East Coast. Usually, it works like, if you are in California, there is the New Yorker. Or, if you are in Texas, you would call something "California style swing".

[Spitfire]

I don't recall now, but what is Peabody, is that akin to Foxtrot, Quickstep?

[tangotime]

I don't recall now, but what is Peabody, is that akin to Foxtrot, Quickstep?


Q.Step.. danced in single time ,about 50 bars a minute.

Partner held slightly apart .

here are some names of steps..


Open left box

Loop Turn

Pony in a Circle

Snakeaway

Shadow step

There are more but cant remember them all

[opendoor]

Peabody only E and Balboa only W...

Always thought Peabody belongs into the Rag drawer, and Balboa into the Swing one?

[tangotime]

Always thought Peabody belongs into the Rag drawer, and Balboa into the Swing one?


It was always included in the B/room Smooth Syl.. the music was a little more 30s style

[Steve Pastor]

Joe Lanza (aka Black Sheep) wrote that "Peabody was the precursor of the simplified Slicker Dances on the West Coast." "complex intricate dance patterns and the super fast beat used in Peabody. Tommy Dorsey's "Marie" and Benny Goodman's "Sing, SIng, SIng" are typical musical rhythms appropriate for Peabody dancing."

He went on to tell how he was thrown out of the Roseland Ballroom in NYC when he tried to dance it as a teenager.