What age level do we enter?

[IndyDancer]

My husband and I are planning to enter our first competition, but I have a question on the age level. There is A1 (19-26) and A2 (27-34). I am 26 and my husband is 27. Which level should we select?

Do we have to go with the oldest/youngest or can we pick a level? If we can pick, which level would be best?

[Laura]

Under both USABDA and NDCA rules, an Adult dancer is not allowed to enter an age level that he or she is too young for. However, an Adult dancer is allowed to dance in a lower age group (so long as they aren't dancing down in to a Youth age group). Therefore, you will have to enter A1, as the younger person is not old enough to dance in A2.

The full NDCA Rulebook is online. (http://www.ndca.org/info.cfm?showsection=info&showsubsection=rules&cfid=13769917&cftoken=11599714)

[DancingMommy]

Or if you are up to a challenge, you can enter both :shock:

[Chris Stratton]

You might want to check carefully how age is defined. Sometimes it is your actual age on the date of the competition, sometimes you are considered to be the age you will turn during a calendar year for the entire duration of the calendar year.

If you turn out to be elgible for the older category, you could choose to enter both to get in more dancing for your trouble of preparation, travel, dressing up, etc.

[IndyDancer]

Thanks for the rule book link! I was able to discover:

"A couple’s age classification eligibility is defined as the age of the older partner on the day of the competition for the Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult “A” classifications, while it is defined as the age of the younger partner for Adult “B” and Senior classifications."

So it looks like we will be dancing A2 (27-34). I have no clue how tough the competition will be! We've only watched the pro-am and professional classes before.

Thanks again for your help!

[Laura]

Well, based on my experience in California, if you are entering a student/student event at an NDCA comp, chances are extremely high that you will be the only person in your event. I'm guessing that you're considering student/student because -- again, based on my experience -- the regular amateur events aren't divided up by age sub-levels. There is an A, and for some events a B, but I've never seen A-1, A-2 for regular amateur events. By "regular" events I mean the ones that you have to be a member of the NDCA to dance in, not the "student/student" events that are run under the same structure as the rest of Pro/Am. I could be wrong...I wouldn't know unless I saw the entry forms for the comp you are talking about.

[Chris Stratton]

Thanks for the rule book link! I was able to discover:

"A couple’s age classification eligibility is defined as the age of the older partner on the day of the competition for the Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult “A” classifications, while it is defined as the age of the younger partner for Adult “B” and Senior classifications."


I wonder if this is actually a typo (thinko). I would have thought that the youth-adult transition would be guided by the older partner, but that after that it would all depend on the younger partner. However reading it literally you would appear to be right to dance your partner's age, and I have no direct experience with any context that subdvides adult A.

Also the NDCA rulebook PDF ins't opening on my computer. A week or so ago it was giving a non-fatal error, but now it just hangs.

[Laura]

Thanks for the rule book link! I was able to discover:

"A couple’s age classification eligibility is defined as the age of the older partner on the day of the competition for the Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult “A” classifications, while it is defined as the age of the younger partner for Adult “B” and Senior classifications."


I wonder if this is actually a typo (thinko). I would have thought that the youth-adult transition would be guided by the older partner, but that after that it would all depend on the younger partner.

Or maybe you misread it? The way I read the same passage you quoted, it says that Youth and Adult "A" depend on the age of the older partner. They use the younger partner for Adult "B" and Senior. So, where is the typo?

[Chris Stratton]

Or maybe you misread it? The way I read the same passage you quoted, it says that Youth and Adult "A" depend on the age of the older partner. They use the younger partner for Adult "B" and Senior. So, where is the typo?

It looks to me like it groups adult A with the kiddie categories, then states a seperate rule for B and older.

[Laura]

Exactly. It's not a typo. Say you had a couple where one person was adult A (let's say 25) and the other was Youth (let's say 17). They are eligible for either Youth or Adult A. By the above rules, that couple has to use the age of the older couple to determine what division to enter. They would have to enter Adult A because the older partner is 25. the rule is written this way because Youths are allowed to dance up into Adult A.

Everything "turns the corner" at Adult A. Say there is a couple where one dancer is 28 and the other is 36. By virtue of each individual's ages, they could possibly be eligible for Adult A or Adult B. If they wanted to enter Adult A, they'd use the older age mentioned in the ruleand see that yes, they are eligible for Adult A because Adult A is 19 and over. If they wanted to enter Adult B (a.k.a. Senior I), they'd use the younger age and see that no, they are not eligible for Adult B because that person is not 35 and over.

In the case of a Youth dancing with an Adult B dancer, they could do Adult A because Youths can dance up into Adult A. The only sticky case would be a Junior dancing with an Adult (A or older). Juniors can't dance up into Adult, so such a couple would be disallowed under the rules.

[Chris Stratton]

But because the actual statement groups adult A with the kiddie categories, it seems to imply that subdivisions within adult A (A1, A2, etc) would be guided by the age of the older partner, in the same way it applies to the divisions between the full categories (youth, adult A) for which it is stated.

I don't think that was the actual intent, because I'm of the opinion that the corner should turn at the Youth/Adult A line, rather than the Adult A/B line. Hence my thought that it might by an error due to the stated rule not having been written with the possibility of subdivided categories in mind.

It might be clearest for the rules to list a maximum or minimum age as appropriate for participating in each (subdivided) category.

(edited for clarity only after Laura posted her reply below)

[Laura]

But because the actual statement groups adult A with the kiddie categories, it seems to imply that subdivisions within adult A (A1, A2, etc) would be guided by the age of the older partner, just as the division between the full divisions (youth, adult A) to which this rule applies

I don't think that was the actual intent... hence my thought that it might by an error due to the stated rule not having been written with subdivided categories in mind.

Ahhh, I see what you're getting at! It sounds like it wasn't thought through for the purposes of sub-divided Adult age levels. Like I said, I've never seen A-1, A-2 etc at a USABDA event. Also, I forgot to mention, that back when I did dance in "Student/Student" events we were listed as AC-A (Amateur Couple A) and that they didn't use A-1, A-2 etc. at the NDCA-sanctioned competitions I went to in California.

[IndyDancer]

This is my first comp, so I'm not sure the difference between Student-Student and Amateur-Amateur. The freestyles we are entering are listed under "Pro/Am Smooth & Rhythm 1-Dance Entries".
(This is for the NDCA Cincinnati DanceSport Festival.)

I wish the entry forms were easier to understand! What is the difference between Closed and Open single dances? Our instructor said we should enter "Closed" but I didn't understand the difference...

[Laura]

Ahh, this makes more sense. You are entering the Student/Student single-dance events, which are run as part of the rest of the Pro/Am program. You do not need to register with the NDCA (at a cost of $40 per year per dancer), so you're good there. I think the best thing to do is for you or your teacher call the organizer to verify what the right age group is. I still think you have enter the A-1, but the organizer will be able to tell you for sure since it's not explicitly clear in the rules. When you call, they might end up telling you it doesn't matter; there was one NDCA comp I danced Student/Student at where all the A's were collapsed, there was no differentiation between A-1, A-2 and so on.

When you find out, would you mind letting me know? I like to stay abreast of the rules and their interpretations. Thanks!!

[Chris Stratton]

If it is actually a pro-am event you have to dance with your teacher, not your husband.

Student/student events are often scheduled with the pro-am events and might use the same registration form as the pro-am events.

Amateur events are probably scheduled at a different time, and may use a different form. That form should include a request for your NDCA registration number. If it doesn't require that, you are probably entering a student/student event (or mistakenly trying to enter a pro-am event as a couple)

[IndyDancer]

I think I will have to ask our instructor to help fill out the forms. Too much for me! I will let you know what the final result is. :)

Thanks again for your help!

[Laura]

This is my first comp, so I'm not sure the difference between Student-Student and Amateur-Amateur. The freestyles we are entering are listed under "Pro/Am Smooth & Rhythm 1-Dance Entries".
(This is for the NDCA Cincinnati DanceSport Festival.)

I wish the entry forms were easier to understand! What is the difference between Closed and Open single dances? Our instructor said we should enter "Closed" but I didn't understand the difference...

Okay, I'm finally getting a chance to look at the entry forms for the competition in question. I'm sorry to report that this particular competition is more confusing than usual!

Let's start at the beginning: based on this particular competition, it looks to me like you've got the wrong form. There's another form on the web site that says "Amateur Smooth & Rhythm 1-Dance Entries." The age groups on there are A (19-34), B (35-49), C (50-65), D (66-75) and E (76-over). These events require NDCA registration -- you should call the organizers to find out if you can sign up at comp. They should let you, although there is no indication in the entry packet that this is the case. Anyway, since you are 26 and your husband is 27, you will have to enter the A age group. I know some of what I just wrote contradicts what I said before, but that's because I hadn't seen the entry packet when I posted.

The difference betwen "Open" and "Closed" has to do with syllabus eforcement. In the "Closed" categories you are limited to the steps specified for that syllabus level. The rules for "Open" categories vary from competition to competition. At some syllabus competitions, "Open" means that you can incorporate material from the next higher syllabus level. In others, it means you can do whatever you want. At this competition, "Open" means there are no syllabus restrictions (see rule 10 for this competition). It's rather a contradiction in my mind to run a syllabus event called "Open Bronze" and say it's completely open syllabus, but I think the level was created to allow Bronze level dancers dance out of syllabus without having to go up against real open-level dancers. Since you are new at this, you definitely want to enter the "Closed" category.

Okay, now for some more explanations.

Under NDCA rules, there are two ways that Amateurs can dance together: in Student/Student events or in Amateur events. This competition does not explicitly offer Student/Student events, although the way their Amateur Freestyles are scheduled and priced they are Student/Student events in all but name only. Why are mere names important here? Well, according to the NDCA rule book Section VI.B.1.d:

PRO/AM STUDENT DANCERS Pro/Am Student Dancers dancing in the following categories shall not be required to register with the NDCA:
1. All Pro/Am competitions.
2. All Student/Student competitions that are included within Pro/Am heats.

However, backing up just one rule, we see in VI.B.1.c that:

AMATEUR COMPETITORS Amateur Competitors who compete in the following categories shall be registered with the NDCA:
1. Adult Syllabus, Novice, Pre-Championship and Championship Proficiency Events.
2. Pre-Teen, Junior, and Youth Age Category Classifications.

So, in general, it seems to me that if you have an Adult Syllabus event run as part of Pro/Am and call it Student/Student, then the dancers don't have to pay a yearly $40 registration fee to the NDCA to participate. But, if you call it "Amateur" rather than "Student/Student," the dancers do have to pay.

At the competitions I've been going to, it's been very clear as to what is Student/Student and what is Amateur. The Student/Student events are called Student/Student, are run as part of the rest of Pro/Am with similar age, proficiency levels, and entry fees as Pro/Am, and even use the same entry form as Pro/Am. Looking at the schedule I see that the so-called "Amateur/Amateur" freestyle (one-dance) events are being run with the rest of the Pro/Am, and that the "Amateur/Amateur" freestyles are divided up by the same kind of syllabus sub-levels as Pro/Am. The Amateur 1-Dance Freestyles are also priced on the Pro/Am scale, which is $25 per dance. To me, except for the name, it looks like the Amateur 1-Dance Freestyles are Student/Student events -- but by calling them "Amateur" and not "Student/Student" the dancers are now expected to pay the NDCA registration fee too, as evinced by the lines on the Amateur 1-Dance entry form asking for the Gentleman's and Lady's NDCA numbers. This is further reinforced by competition rule 18, which which says "All Amateur couples must now be registered with the NDCA." Interesting.

There's also yet another entry form that says "Amateur Entry Form" on it. It has the multi-dance events that people consider to be the "regular" Amateur events. I call them "regular" to differentiate them from the events that are run as part of Pro/Am. Unfortunately they don't offer any low-level Smooth or Rhythm events, so that doesn't help you at all. You should just ignore that page for now.

I hope I haven't confused you further!!

[IndyDancer]

Thanks so much, Laura! You have cleared things up for me. I can see now I was looking at the wrong form originally... Oops... :oops:

I also understand why our instructor said we should do Closed rather than Open. But now I confess I'm a bit nervous that we may accidentally do a non-bronze step! Some of the step names on the NDCA syllabus don't sound familiar to me, and I think we may have been doing some silver steps already. Oh well, it is meant to be a learning experience.

I registered on-line for our NDCA numbers, hopefully we'll get them before the registration deadline!

Heck, I've already learned a lot before we've even gone to the comp! :lol: Thanks again.