In the Ballroom, a Redefinition of 'Couple'

[Sagitta]

[This post has been edited by the Moderator pending permission from The New York Times to reproduce the article in full. Pacion]

July 14, 2004 - In the Ballroom, a Redefinition of 'Couple'
By ERIC MARX

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/14/arts/dance/14DANC.html?hp

In summary, there was apparently a couple made up of two men (Russell Halley and Jorge Guzman) competing in the Latin division, in the preliminaries of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) ballroom dancing competition. They came second (overall?). The article did not say when the competition was held. It was the first time two men have been allowed to dance as a couple at championship level. The two men were also "pushing against limits" aka the rules of the United States Amateur Ballroom Dancers Association (USABDA) which requires a couple to be male/female.

The two men (who are not in a relationship), said that they felt the rules to be "archaic and that they have proved that two men can dance powerfully and still be artistic". They also raised the point that "if questions of gay identity and inclusion are being engaged in the workplace and in the bonds of marriage, then why not in professional and amateur sport?"

The two men have been dancing together for three years and it is my understanding, from the article, that they take it in turns to lead and to follow.

Side note (also from the article): Many Americans view ballroom as a sexually expressive dance and therefore not associated with the athletisim, agility and stamina as required by sport. Ballroom has been unable to gain wide media exposure and sponsorship in the US but its popularity has increased over the past 30 years. Some estimates suggest that women outnumber men three to one.

One suggestion that has been made is to have a same sex division because which was endorsed by an interviewee. The interviewee said that two men dancing can have the same emotions as a male/female couple but the overall look would be different because of the power structure between the two men.

++End++

[squirrel]

:) interesting... I have nothing against same-sex couples...

[Chris Stratton]

Only the couple's sex - both are men - hinted at controversy. In letting
the dancers, Russell Halley and Jorge Guzman, participate in the
competition in April, the organizers of the M.I.T. event for the first time
permitted two men to dance together at a championship level.

Actually they danced pre-champ latin. They took 2nd only in Paso, and 5th (7,7,3,3) across the other 4 dances.

There was an all-female couple in champ latin that is not mentioned in the article.

"for the first time permitted" kind of misses the actual situation - it's been permitted at many college comps for years, it's just that there haven't been many high level entries. I heard that two men decided on the spur of the moment to dance champ rhythm at a smaller comp last year just for fun.

FWIW, I personally did not like the matching costumes and role-trading. But then I'm notorious for disliking most latin follower costumes anyway.

[Katarzyna]

FWIW, I personally did not like the matching costumes and role-trading. But then I'm notorious for disliking most latin follower costumes anyway.
Would you rather see one of them wearing a dress?

[Chris Stratton]

Would you rather see one of them wearing a dress?

I'm not sure. What I am pretty sure is that I'd like to see some degree of "Me Tarzan, you Jane" differentiation in color or style, to match a fixed set of roles, at least as long as same sex couples are mixing with opposite sex ones in the same event.

Making the partners more interchangeable can still work - these were increadible dancers we musn't forget - but I think that points more towards the argument for seperate events that will develop a different character. According to the article, Russel and Jorge think seperate events would be a satisfactory solution. Since that is their competition history overseas, I'm not suprised that their dancing might be more tuned to that than to mixing with opposite sex couples. This is different from typical female/female collegiate couples who have always danced against opposite sex pairs and usually present a more traditional image.

Oh, I loved the bit about paso being about a bullfight. But it's about a man and woman. Makes lots of of sense....

Hazelwood's comment is somewhat either misleading or misquoted - women might be allowed to dance together at the regional level if there were such events, but USBDA is fighting tooth and nail against allowing them to do so at any sanctioned competitions such as USABDA regionals, which are what most of us think of when a USABDA official uses the word "regional" to describe competitions. The issue of "the public arena" seems to refer not to visibility to the general public, but rather visibility to the hotel-comp ballroom establishment at something like OSB.

[Katarzyna]

I have not seen the open latin at MIT, so I can't comment much on their dancing there. I've seen them practice in New York, and I always liked their dancing... Perhaps you are right about the different roles for man and woman as the expression of a dance, but couldn't it be a personal interpretation of emotions to be conveyed by the dancers?

[cl5814]

Would you rather see one of them wearing a dress?

What I am pretty sure is that I'd like to see some degree of "Me Tarzan, you Jane" differentiation in color or style, to match a fixed set of roles, at least as long as same sex couples are mixing with opposite sex ones in the same event.



I agree with you Chris, some degree of differentiation might make it more acceptable to people.

[Laura]

I've seen this couple compete and they are fabulous. They were out here in California last spring for the California DanceSport Championships for Same-Sex Couples. I consider these two dancers a prime example of why same-sex couples should be accomodated: I watched them and instead of seeing two guys dancing together, I just saw a wonderful exhibition of rhythm, movement, and line. And as far as gender-roles go, I very much enjoyed their style of presentation where lead and follow changed and they were not merely trying to re-enact the male-female roles.

I think the best and easiest compromise is to run separate events for same-sex couples. Unfortunately, some people in the ballroom establishment can't even deal with that. An NDCA-sanctioned competition that I was at in California in 1998 had a Fred/Fred and Ginger/Ginger section for same-sex couples; these couples did not compete against mixed-sex couples. Still, a number of people (some were NDCA "movers and shakers", some were parents) were horrified, and that led to the NDCA passing their "a couple is one man and one woman" rule.

By the way, the DanceSport is *NOT* being considered for inclusion in the 2008 Beijing Olympics. New sports for 2008 were chosen back in 2002, and DanceSport was not picked. It was not completely dismissed, though, which means that it is still a theoretical possibility for 2012.

[Chris Stratton]

I agree with you Chris, some degree of differentiation might make it more acceptable to people.

Well, "acceptable" is a different word. Certainly there was less social controversy in their identical mostly black (typical latin leader) outfits than if one had been in something more flamboyant. But from a dancer's point of view, somehow echoing the usual couple dynamic in costumes and roles might have made their dancing easier to understand and directly compare to that of the other couples. Watching the event the way it unfolded, it looked like they were probably the two best two individual dancers on the floor, but not really like they should win as a couple in the context of that event.

[SDsalsaguy]

By the way, the DanceSport is *NOT* being considered for inclusion in the 2008 Beijing Olympics. New sports for 2008 were chosen back in 2002, and DanceSport was not picked. It was not completely dismissed, though, which means that it is still a theoretical possibility for 2012.
Oh yeah, I noticed that too but then forgot to point it out... thanks for picking up the slack for me Laura! :D

[Laura]

Watching the event the way it unfolded, it looked like they were probably the two best two individual dancers on the floor, but not really like they should win as a couple in the context of that event.

I think we're getting into matters of taste here. I think these two dance as more of a couple (meaning, a cooperative unit) than those super-gymnastic male-female Latin couples where the dancing goes like: twirl the girl into a split -- watch me dance around her -- pick the girl up, we do one identifiable basic -- watch me do a bunch of spins -- oh, where's the girl, let me drop her into a back bend and so on. You know what I mean....someone described it a lot better and more humorously recently.

[Chris Stratton]

I think we're getting into matters of taste here. I think these two dance as more of a couple (meaning, a cooperative unit) than those super-gymnastic male-female Latin couples where the dancing goes like: twirl the girl into a split -- watch me dance around her -- pick the girl up, we do one identifiable basic -- watch me do a bunch of spins -- oh, where's the girl, let me drop her into a back bend and so on. You know what I mean....someone described it a lot better and more humorously recently.

Actually one of the recent such descriptions of contemprorary latin on here was from me. I don't mean to imply that Russell and Jorge didn't seem to be a team - in fact they may have been more of one than the other couples. But I don't feel like the dynamic of their interaction was the same as that usually expected in this event, either traditionally or in the degenerate form we often have to settle for. For me, their performance was a good argument for a seperate event that could develop towards different goals and judging standard. Wheras the more numercially common case is of female/female couples who do fit pretty well into direct comparison in traditional events.

What we shouldn't loose sight of is that while some parts of the ballroom community are getting into detailed discussions about the format we want to see same sex couples compete in, other corners of the ballroom world remain opposed to even considering the idea of having them a visible part of the activity at all.

[Laura]

Wheras the more numercially common case is of female/female couples who do fit pretty well into direct comparison in traditional events.

How so? Because it's acceptable for a female-female couple to consist of one woman wearing a dress and the other wearing pants, whereas if a guy turned up in a dress everyone would laugh?

[Chris Stratton]

How so? Because it's acceptable for a female-female couple to consist of one woman wearing a dress and the other wearing pants, whereas if a guy turned up in a dress everyone would laugh?

Maybe. I don't know what the fair overall answer is - but it does seem like a lot of the beginner-intermediate female/female couples can be more fairly and directly compared to opposite sex competition. Sure, it's less controversial for a woman to dress for and play a man's role than the reverse, but part of the difference is also that some of the female/female couples seem to actively try to fit into the traditional dynamic in order to enter traditional events. Wheras Russell and Jorge seemed to have an alternative dynamic tuned for the alternative events where they have been competing.

[pygmalion]

What we shouldn't loose sight of is that while some parts of the ballroom community are getting into detailed discussions about the format we want to see same sex couples compete in, other corners of the ballroom world remain opposed to even considering the idea of having them a visible part of the activity at all.

Exactly, Chris. :?

Where I live, there are two ballroom instructors that I know of who conduct same sex dance classes. Neither one publicly advertises where or when the classes will be held. And I've never seen their students out dancing at the public dances here (although perhaps I've missed it :roll: ) There's a huge distance between having an occasional couple compete and gaining a broad level of acceptance.

[Laura]

Sure, it's less controversial for a woman to dress for and play a man's role than the reverse, but part of the difference is also that some of the female/female couples seem to actively try to fit into the traditional dynamic in order to enter traditional events. Wheras Russell and Jorge seemed to have an alternative dynamic tuned for the alternative events where they have been competing.

The female/female couples in the Collegiate world choreograph and train under the Collegiate rules and traditions. One person leads, another follows. Russell & Jorge have been training for same-sex events, where lead changes are a requirement. Lead changes are expected even on the syllabus level in same-sex dancing. If your female/female couples developed in that environment, they wouldn't look like the traditional dynamic either (as evinced by the european same-sex female couples I've seen dance).

[SamanthaDance]

Something that hasn't been brought up in this discussion, is how would a couple that one partner is transgendered be defined? Technically they might be a same sex couple or not, depending. They would be following the lead/follow traditional partnership, and dressed accordingly to the "socially accepted" norms.

Probably in some places it would not be a problem, or even noticed. Has anyone ever witnessed this?

SamanthaDance

[Chris Stratton]

Something that hasn't been brought up in this discussion, is how would a couple that one partner is transgendered be defined? Technically they might be a same sex couple or not, depending. They would be following the lead/follow traditional partnership, and dressed accordingly to the "socially accepted" norms.

It might be a good idea to bring an oxygen bottle to any setting where this is discussed.

[Kitty]

I think the best and easiest compromise is to run separate events for same-sex couples. Unfortunately, some people in the ballroom establishment can't even deal with that. An NDCA-sanctioned competition that I was at in California in 1998 had a Fred/Fred and Ginger/Ginger section for same-sex couples; these couples did not compete against mixed-sex couples. Still, a number of people (some were NDCA "movers and shakers", some were parents) were horrified, and that led to the NDCA passing their "a couple is one man and one woman" rule.

Does that NDCA rule allow the girl to lead and guy to follow?

[Laura]

I don't actually recall, but someone can look it up since I have to run to Pilates class: use www.ndca.org and click on the "Information" link in the left hand side.

[SamanthaDance]

From the NDCA website:
under Section II:

3. Definition of a Couple
a. A couple is defined as a male and a female.

I couldn't find any other references pertaining to this there.

[Chris Stratton]

Some ruleset (I forget which one) has a gender-specific definition of dance hold.

[squirrel]

Hmmm... do you guys know that a couple of hundred years back women were not allowed to perform? I mean, actors (for instance) were all men! This is a reason why some great playrights have very few lines for women (as is the case of Shakespeare)... One had to find a good and slim and feminine actor to interpret the woman's part... and that was hard!
I wonder why all the fuss about men competing in same-sex couples or wearing skirts?!
I think it's all a matter of society rules... the same as two women kissing in a movie is acceptable, but two guys kissing is disgusting... or showing fully naked women is ok, but fully naked men is not!
It's just prejudices... IMHO

[Porfirio Landeros]

I feel a little guilty, because I have nothing against people of any compostition (as long as there are only 2) getting married, but when I saw that picture on the Times arts page, I was a little disgusted.

Sorry... :oops:

I guess if we define dancing as an art, you have components that you use to create your art. The primary components of ballroom dance are a man and a woman, or if you want to get liberal, a masculine lead and a feminine follower. I think if you change this, it becomes something else, and not necessarily someting "bad", just something different. So, I have no problem with the expansion of same-sex (lead exchanging) categories... in fact, I'll dance in the old-school Ballroom Dance category and they can dance in the DanceSport category ;-)

[Laura]

I would love to see the expansion of a same-sex category, but unfortunately NDCA and USABDA rules don't allow it. Recall that the NDCA rule defining the gender make up of couples was instituted after the 1998 SF Open offered a same-sex category that was completely separate from the regular categories. So, without the support of both the NDCA and USABDA, same-sex dancing in this country is facing extra hurdles of getting off the ground.

That's not to say that people don't want it. Last spring I worked at the California DanceSport Championships for Same-Sex Couples. It was a large, well-attended event. The number of entries were on par with local collegiate and USABDA competitions, but the number of spectators was greater than what we usually get -- even at NDCA competitions. I left this event thinking that if USABDA wants to grow dancesport, they should find a way to tap into this market. The crowd was very enthusiastic, and a number of the same-sex couples were women who had paired up with other women due to their inability to find approriate male partners for NDCA and/or USABDA events.

There's an opportunity here that's being missed. The big dance organizations in this country should be happy to welcome such enthusiastic dancers and spectators into their midst, and give them a "same-sex with lead changing" category, especially in this time of declining membership and smaller numbers of competitors at sanctioned events.

[Chris Stratton]

Given the comments about lead-changing being a requirement in some of the existing same-sex competitions, I'm thinking that - particularly for smooth/standard - this might actually influence the selection of partners. For example, two female friends who compete together on the college circuit actually have a fairly classic leader-follower height difference. I'm not sure it would work so well for them to switch roles as more than an exercise - although the leader happens to follow expertly, the dynamics would be all wrong. So I wonder if not only training, but actual partnerships have some built in assumption of either fixed-roles or role-trading that may not always be perfectly adaptable to a different style of competition.

[Genesius Redux]

I've not been able to read the article, because I'm not a paying customer of the Times. And I've never seen same-sex couples performing. But....

I see nothing wrong with expanding possibilities in couples dancing. I do think that between two men, whether they are a couple in the sexual sense or not, some of the gender-specific attitudes and postures of dance may look a little absurd or parodic. But anyone who has ever been to the ballet, or seen a moderately good production of West Side Story or Seven Brides for Seven Brothers knows that two men dancing together can be very exciting to watch. I do think there needs to be a shift in tone or expression to accommodate the gender shift--as even the romance of a gay couple will look and feel different from the romance of a heterosexual couple. But that's a matter for the performing couple to work out.

It's too bad that there's resistance to the mere idea--but what else can you expect in a country where almost half of the elected senators think they have the right much less the responsibility to tell private citizens who they can marry and who they can't?

Cheers,

Genesius

[tsb]

has anyone considered the physical advantages a male follower might have in terms of stamina & strength if they were to be competing against couples with female followers? seems a little unfair. annika can make the cut playing on shorter men's courses, but if tiger played an LPGA event...

[Laura]

That's a good point. The easy way around it is to have separate male/male and female/female events, just as there are mens' doubles and womens' doubles in tennis.

It's funny, but this question of "unfair physical advantage" is bandied about much more by traditional mixed-sex dancers than by the same-sex couples themselves! The same-sex circuit in Europe is set up so that male-male partnerships compete directly against female-female ones, and the people there seem satisfied with the arrangement. After all, they created the rules for themselves, so if they wanted it to be run differently the would run it differently.

[tsb]

That's a good point. The easy way around it is to have separate male/male and female/female events, just as there are mens' doubles and womens' doubles in tennis.

It's funny, but this question of "unfair physical advantage" is bandied about much more by traditional mixed-sex dancers than by the same-sex couples themselves! The same-sex circuit in Europe is set up so that male-male partnerships compete directly against female-female ones, and the people there seem satisfied with the arrangement. After all, they created the rules for themselves, so if they wanted it to be run differently the would run it differently.

i wonder how that would work in a cabaret division where you tend to see a lot more lifts & stuff.

what i didn't mention before was that i think it was edie the salsafreak who suggested that ladies either study with a female instructor - or a female impersonator(!) - when it came to learning styling; the point being that men are capable of portraying a feminine presence - plus they can have a strength & stamina advantage.

maybe i should have tried out for high school field hockey. THAT i've got the legs for.

[Laura]

i wonder how that would work in a cabaret division where you tend to see a lot more lifts & stuff.

They don't have cabaret events at their competitions, so it's not an issue as of yet.

[Warren J. Dew]

Just to provide another opinion about the actual dancing, I was at the event and watched this couple quite a bit. I was unimpressed with their dancing; I thought they deserved to make the first cut, but certainly not the final.

My biggest complaint was that, contrary to the claim that they "switched the lead back and forth", I didn't see a lead or follow at all. There didn't seem to be any visible connection between the two, and their timing was nearly always off from each other by a quarter to half a beat - it was as if they were listening to different music. I certainly saw none of the sensuous hip action I generally associate with good latin ladies responding to their partners' lead, nor did I see much of the presence that I associate with good latin men.

Technically, they appeared to be adequate, though their action was sluggish compared to the other finalists. I honestly think they made the final on the strength of the novelty of their partnership rather than on the quality of their dancing.

Note that I'm not necessarily against same sex couples in principle. I remember seeing the male half of the then U.S. amateur 10 dance champions dancing as a female a few years ago, and he was a much better lady than most of the actual female dancers out there - and would have been even had he not worn his regular partner's dress. The male couple at the MIT comp, however, was not dancing anything that was recognizably ballroom - and whatever it was that they were dancing, they weren't doing it all that well.

By the way, you can judge for yourself by downloading the videos at the MIT site. Here's the URL, if it's okay to put URLs in this forum:

http://ballroom.mit.edu/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=MIT04-Videos

[SDsalsaguy]

By the way, you can judge for yourself by downloading the videos at the MIT site. Here's the URL, if it's okay to put URLs in this forum:

http://ballroom.mit.edu/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=MIT04-Videos
No problem at all Warren, and thanks for providing it! Definitely helps concretize the dancing in question, which is, of course, a separate issue from the policies being discussed.

Just to clarify Dance Forums policies:

As long as the content is appropriate, URLs may always be posted. The only stipulation—and in line with our goal of maintaining quality discussions unadulterated by commercial interests—is that active links to commercial sites can only be posted in the Ads/Events and Webs forums.

[Laura]

Well, I've watched the videos, and it's difficult to get a sense of the guys' dancing because one judge was in front of them most of the time -- there were really only a few short glimpses. We'll have to go on eyewitness accounts. I must say that I don't like those see-through mesh shirts on them -- or on every single other guy I saw pictures of from MIT save one. The only person in the photo albums who I think looked great in a mesh shirt was Boris L. (Diana Sirkis's partner).

But hey, the dancers who I could actually see in that Pre-Champ Latin event looked good -- it must have been an exciting event! Thanks to Warren for the link and Eric (in the credits) for the tape.

[Warren J. Dew]

Well, I've watched the videos, and it's difficult to get a sense of the guys' dancing because one judge was in front of them most of the time
Unfortunately, yes. It was nice to have a video platform, but the platform really needed to be a couple feet higher.
But hey, the dancers who I could actually see in that Pre-Champ Latin event looked good
That's a good point. I might have ended up with a better impression of the male couple if their opposition hadn't been as strong as it was.

[cy_phi]

Well, I was certainly there. (If you checked out the videos, I'm dancing with my partner in the Advanced American rhythm sections. [Carlton Young and Yuliya Lobacheva]).

When I saw that a same-sex couple was going to dance, I was a little skeptical at first. Why? Well, since there are so many more women than men participating in this activity, I thought it was rather selfish of them to take on a male/male dance partnership. In my experience, the need for good quality male dancers to partner up with women is high. However, as my partner reminded me, it's not about pairing up a man and a woman to dance in a competition, it's about dancing with someone who shares the same passion for the dance as you do. She's quite insightful, isn't she?

With that in mind, I saw Russell and Jorge dance and I was quite impressed with their ability. They were fairly strong dancers, good enough to make the cut into the next rounds. While Jorge does say that people were cheering them on (and indeed they were, myself included), I couldn't help but think that folks were cheering them on mainly because of the novelty of it.

I also thought that the switching of leads was a bit unfair because one partner could be a strong lead in one dance, like Cha Cha, and the other partner strong in another dance. They actually do switch leads as I verified this with 2 of their coaches who told them about the MIT comp. I understand that in same-sex competitions it's within the rules to do so.

However, the other couples on the floor had a consistent lead and follower requiring the lead to be a strong leader in ALL of the dances. Although they did not finish well, there was a female/female couple in Pre-Champ Latin, and their partnership was certain; there was a definite lead and a definite follower.

I have to commend Russell and Jorge for being pioneers of incorporating same-sex competitions, and I am all for the comprimised solution of having a separate category for these couples in NDCA and USABDA events because it makes the competition fair. However, ballroom dancing is a subculture and what Russell and Jorge would develop is a subculture within a subculture. Whether or not it would be successful is a question. Whether or not it would help bring ballroom dancing into the mainstream is another.

-Carlton

[Laura]

Although they did not finish well, there was a female/female couple in Pre-Champ Latin, and their partnership was certain; there was a definite lead and a definite follower.

Was that Camille & Kilee from Sacramento? I thought I saw them in the photo album but wasn't sure. Camille (the leaader) sometimes competes under funny stage names. I'm not suprised that they didn't finish well.

[cy_phi]

Although they did not finish well, there was a female/female couple in Pre-Champ Latin, and their partnership was certain; there was a definite lead and a definite follower.

Was that Camille & Kilee from Sacramento? I thought I saw them in the photo album but wasn't sure. Camille (the leaader) sometimes competes under funny stage names. I'm not suprised that they didn't finish well.

Yes, it was them. :)

[Angelo]

Hey Carlton,

Long time. No see. Welcome to the forums. Say hello to Yuliya for me.

[cy_phi]

Hey Carlton,

Long time. No see. Welcome to the forums. Say hello to Yuliya for me.

Will do. Haven't seen you or Sam in a while. Ryles this weekend?

[Angelo]

Hey Carlton,

Long time. No see. Welcome to the forums. Say hello to Yuliya for me.

Will do. Haven't seen you or Sam in a while. Ryles this weekend?


I sent you a PM so as not to hijack this thread

[Pacion]

I just watched the Advanced American Mambo video and all the girls were wearing black dresses except one girl :shock: For a moment I thought I was seeing the same couple all the time, then realised that the cut of the dresses were different :oops:

On to the next 8)

[Chris Stratton]

I just watched the Advanced American Mambo video and all the girls were wearing black dresses except one girl

One of the pre-champ latin leaders is on to a solution for this, even down to the shoes.

[cy_phi]

I just watched the Advanced American Mambo video and all the girls were wearing black dresses except one girl :shock: For a moment I thought I was seeing the same couple all the time, then realised that the cut of the dresses were different :oops:

On to the next 8)

Yep, that 'one girl' in red is my partner, Yuliya! :D She's always doing something different. Thank goodness.

[Pacion]

I just watched the Advanced American Mambo video and all the girls were wearing black dresses except one girl

One of the pre-champ latin leaders is on to a solution for this, even down to the shoes.

This sounds intriguing :wink: how is he/she planning on doing that?

Thanks cy_phi. It was good to see a different colour :D

[Chris Stratton]

This sounds intriguing :wink: how is he/she planning on doing that?


All white costume on the leader, all black on the follower

[Pacion]

Hmm wouldn't it be 'cheaper' the otherway? All black on the leader and all white on the follower?

[Kitty]

Technically, they appeared to be adequate, though their action was sluggish compared to the other finalists. I honestly think they made the final on the strength of the novelty of their partnership rather than on the quality of their dancing.


While I actually thought that they deserved a higher placing. I thought that technically they were superior to most couples on the floor. Stylistically - well, that everyone decides for themselves, I actually did get a sense they were switching roles of leader and follower from time to time. And I agree they didn't look very sensual, even in rumba. But I attributed that to their desire not to offend anyone's feelings and try to look more "generic" so that judges feelings don't affect the placement so much. Some people on my team even thought they deserved to win 1st.

[Kitty]

Although they did not finish well, there was a female/female couple in Pre-Champ Latin, and their partnership was certain; there was a definite lead and a definite follower.

Was that Camille & Kilee from Sacramento? I thought I saw them in the photo album but wasn't sure. Camille (the leaader) sometimes competes under funny stage names. I'm not suprised that they didn't finish well.

They also danced in champ. You can see them in a video on Warrens website.