What is the best Cuban & on2 salsa video series?

[brujo]

Hi everyone,

I've recently moved to Toronto and found that while this city has a lot of really good LA + NY style instructors, I haven't been able to find good Cuban style intructors.

I want to continue learning cuban salsa, and was wondering if anyone could recomend a good video series for an intermediate level dancer.

So far, I am leaning towards the Salsa a la cubana series Salsaville. Has anyone had any experience with this series?

I'm starting on2 classes soon, and was also wondering if the Eddie Torres series would be a good supplement to my classes.

thanks,
-tomas

[edited by DanceMentor] We don't link to commercial products, except in the "Ads and Event Announcements section". That doesn't mean you can't refer to the name of the product as long as the purpose of the post doesn't appear commercial. Note: a Google search should find Salsaville. You can also post the name and URL of your website in your signature, but no ads please.

[Dennis Simmons]

I'm starting on2 classes soon, and was also wondering if the Eddie Torres series would be a good supplement to my classes.

For my money, Eddie is the leading exponent of mambo in the world today!

Regards,
Dennis

[salsarhythms]

If it's On-2 you're looking for then you can't
go wrong with Eddie Torres..

As far as the SalsaVille series, I wouldn't be able
to tell you since I haven't seen it.

[Dennis Simmons]

I'm starting on2 classes soon, and was also wondering if the Eddie Torres series would be a good supplement to my classes.

Just a reminder. I take it that "on 2" refers to the fact that, in mambo dance timing, the break steps (where direction of dance changes) are taken on musical counts 2 and 6 of the 8-count (two-measure) musical refrain. Remember that the convention for starting the dance is that the man shifts his weight to his right foot on count 5 and steps forward with his left foot on count 6 (the break step). So, men break forward on count 6, whereas women break forward on count 2. This distinguishes men's timing from women's timing in mambo. I have seen women walk off the dance floor in places like Club Broadway when the man failed to start the dance by convention, presumably because they assumed (rightly or wrongly) that he did not know what he was doing. It can be important when asking someone to dance who is familiar with mambo. For details of the four principal latin dance timings, you can refer to my thread "Latin Dance Timings" in this forum.

[DanceMentor]

I take it that "on 2" refers to the fact that, in mambo dance timing, the break steps (where direction of dance changes) are taken on musical counts 2 and 6 of the 8-count (two-measure) musical refrain. Remember that the convention for starting the dance is that the man shifts his weight to his right foot on count 5 and steps forward with his left foot on count 6 (the break step).

I'd like a little clarification between Mambo and NY "on2" Salsa.
IMHO: You are describing NY "on2" Salsa, not Mambo. In Mambo, you break on 2 and 7, but there is NOT a weight change on 1 or five.
"on2" Salsa - 1234 is step-break-step-pause
Mambo - 1234 is pause-break-step-step
What do think?

[SDsalsaguy]

I'd like a little clarification between Mambo and NY "on2" Salsa.

Within the salsa/mambo world, on2 is often referenced as mambo (vs. salsa on1). "Power2" or "Palladium2" are the American Rhythm mambo timing & pattern whereas the other mambo/on2 is NY2.

[Dennis Simmons]

I take it that "on 2" refers to the fact that, in mambo dance timing, the break steps (where direction of dance changes) are taken on musical counts 2 and 6 of the 8-count (two-measure) musical refrain. Remember that the convention for starting the dance is that the man shifts his weight to his right foot on count 5 and steps forward with his left foot on count 6 (the break step).

I'd like a little clarification between Mambo and NY "on2" Salsa.
IMHO: You are describing NY "on2" Salsa, not Mambo. In Mambo, you break on 2 and 7, but there is NOT a weight change on 1 or five.
"on2" Salsa - 1234 is step-break-step-pause
Mambo - 1234 is pause-break-step-step
What do think?

Well, I can only view the need for Eddie to market his video instruction set as "salsa", "on2" or otherwise, as extremely unfortunate. Having been trained by Eddie, I can assure you that what he does in that instruction video is mambo, the same dance that he was doing in his early days as a dancer at the Paladium. That mambo is not an Arthur Murray interpretation of the dance, but the original and completely authentic dance timing based on Cuban rumba and known in ballroom dance circles as "quick quick slow" rumba. It has nothing whatsoever to do with salsa, which is a completely different dance timing with a completely different musical origin (the Bronx, late 1950s - early 1960s, utilizing the rhythmic structure of Puerto Rican plena).

The dance timing for mambo (again, the real thing, not some version dreamed up in Arthur Murray studios) is as I have detailed it in my thread "Latin Dance Timings" in this forum. The timing for the man (mambo basic with continuous breaks) is to step back with the left foot on count 1, step back with the right foot on count 2, step forward with the left foot on count 3, transition forward (foot moving forward in the air) with the right foot on count 4, step forward with the right foot on count 5, step forward with the left foot on count 6, step back with the right foot on count 7, transition back (foot moving back in the air) with the left foot on count 8, to step back with the left foot on count 1. Again, the convention for starting the dance is for the man, while holding the woman in dance position, to visibly shift weight to the right foot on count 5, thereby signaling to his partner that the dance is about to commence, then step forward on the left foot on count 6 (the break step). It must be recalled that latin dance is very macho thing, so that the man could hardly start the dance by breaking back on count 2, as this would give the appearance that he is being led by the woman. It is also to be noted that while, in mambo dance timing, the break counts are 2 and 6, there is no necessity for the man to lead a break (change of direction) on any particular count 2 or 6. Nevertheless, when he does break, he must do so on the left foot on count 6 when changing direction of dance from forward to back or from left to right, and on the right foot on count 2 when changing the direction of dance from back to forward or from right to left.

Mambo dance timing for the woman (mambo basic with continuous breaks) is, of course, the mirror image of that for the man: Step forward with the right foot on count 1, step forward with the left foot on count 2, step back with the right foot on count 3, transition back (foot moving back in the air) with the left foot on count 4, step back with the left foot on count 5, step back with the right foot on count 6, step forward with the left foot on count 7, transition forward (foot moving forward in the air) with the right foot on count 8, to step forward with the right foot on count 1.

[brujo]

Just an update on this. I got the salsaville videos and I think they are worth the money if you want to see a different style of salsa. Some of the moves in there are probably more suited for the merengue scene, but the videos are easy to follow, although it's more of a slideshow of moves than a step by step explanation.

I would recommend the first and third videos of the series, as they provide a good intro and the best / smoothest moves in cuban salsa I've seen. It's a little different than the style danced by many Europeans I have seen in the complexity and level of difficulty of a lot of these moves.

Most moves are done 4 times, twice with music at a front and back view and twice in a breakdown view. Each set of moves is prefaced by a demo of the moves in action, and it's just fun to watch. The circular motion of cuban salsa ( explained in video 1 ) allows for some moves that are not seen in the NY / LA scene. For example, there is a move where the man can just lie down on the floor, leaning on one foot, and use the momentum of the follow to continue going in circles ( a seated version of this appeared in a Gloria Stefan video, if I am not mistaken ).

Some of the moves are hit and miss. Compared with some of the other dancers, some dancers just don't seem to be that smooth and their moves look more painful than fun. But they are definitively the creme of all the cuban salsa I have been able to observe.

The videos include mostly pretzel moves, but there are about five drops and interesting styling innovations. A favorite of mine is the terremotos ( earthquakes), where the man alternates lifting the left and right hands of the woman over his head, creating an earthquake effect.

The footwork in the video is also very stylish and innovative, and quite a bit different than the NY / LA style. The woman keeps the count, so the man can really go wild with the footwork.

[borikensalsero]

I take it that "on 2" refers to the fact that, in mambo dance timing, the break steps (where direction of dance changes) are taken on musical counts 2 and 6 of the 8-count (two-measure) musical refrain. Remember that the convention for starting the dance is that the man shifts his weight to his right foot on count 5 and steps forward with his left foot on count 6 (the break step).

I'd like a little clarification between Mambo and NY "on2" Salsa.
IMHO: You are describing NY "on2" Salsa, not Mambo. In Mambo, you break on 2 and 7, but there is NOT a weight change on 1 or five.
"on2" Salsa - 1234 is step-break-step-pause
Mambo - 1234 is pause-break-step-step
What do think?

Well, I can only view the need for Eddie to market his video instruction set as "salsa", "on2" or otherwise, as extremely unfortunate. Having been trained by Eddie, I can assure you that what he does in that instruction video is mambo, the same dance that he was doing in his early days as a dancer at the Paladium. That mambo is not an Arthur Murray interpretation of the dance, but the original and completely authentic dance timing based on Cuban rumba and known in ballroom dance circles as "quick quick slow" rumba. It has nothing whatsoever to do with salsa, which is a completely different dance timing with a completely different musical origin (the Bronx, late 1950s - early 1960s, utilizing the rhythmic structure of Puerto Rican plena).

The dance timing for mambo (again, the real thing, not some version dreamed up in Arthur Murray studios) is as I have detailed it in my thread "Latin Dance Timings" in this forum. The timing for the man (mambo basic with continuous breaks) is to step back with the left foot on count 1, step back with the right foot on count 2, step forward with the left foot on count 3, transition forward (foot moving forward in the air) with the right foot on count 4, step forward with the right foot on count 5, step forward with the left foot on count 6, step back with the right foot on count 7, transition back (foot moving back in the air) with the left foot on count 8, to step back with the left foot on count 1. Again, the convention for starting the dance is for the man, while holding the woman in dance position, to visibly shift weight to the right foot on count 5, thereby signaling to his partner that the dance is about to commence, then step forward on the left foot on count 6 (the break step). It must be recalled that latin dance is very macho thing, so that the man could hardly start the dance by breaking back on count 2, as this would give the appearance that he is being led by the woman. It is also to be noted that while, in mambo dance timing, the break counts are 2 and 6, there is no necessity for the man to lead a break (change of direction) on any particular count 2 or 6. Nevertheless, when he does break, he must do so on the left foot on count 6 when changing direction of dance from forward to back or from left to right, and on the right foot on count 2 when changing the direction of dance from back to forward or from right to left.

Mambo dance timing for the woman (mambo basic with continuous breaks) is, of course, the mirror image of that for the man: Step forward with the right foot on count 1, step forward with the left foot on count 2, step back with the right foot on count 3, transition back (foot moving back in the air) with the left foot on count 4, step back with the left foot on count 5, step back with the right foot on count 6, step forward with the left foot on count 7, transition forward (foot moving forward in the air) with the right foot on count 8, to step forward with the right foot on count 1.


Just clarifying...

Eddie was a Post-Palladium dancer, othewise he'd be around 80 right now... Speaking to old school dancers in NY City, will shed a little light into the difference of, Eddie's thought by many story, and the story from his peers of how Eddie, as they put it, "messed up the dance". Eddie is what they consider a Latin hustle dancer.

During his young dancing days he would stand to the side and watch the top dancers dance. Never was he consider even close to a top Mambo dancer back in the late 60s, early 70s. Only today has his contributions to Mambo made him the Mambo king.

As I did, I was foolish enough to mention Eddie's skills and how good eveyone says he was back then, from ear-say I must note, in front of one of the leading dancers back then. To only be embarrassed by laughter. He was never back then the mambo king that he is thought of today, I was told, then a story that has been comfirmed time and time again when I bring Eddie to the forefront of a conversation with old cheetah club dancers.

Young dancers in NY City consider him so because he changed the count numbers and "simply" changed the dance. Plus they have really never seen salsa before it evolved in Eddie's hands. Hence, why old schoolers and new dancers in NY city look nothing alike. Old schoolers do a lot of body movements, etc. As oppossed to today where women prisions is stressed. Back then individuality was stressed, you had to be original, somthing which was only yours. If you weren't that, you weren't in the circle...

All credit where credit is due, he deserves it. Because of him mambo is what it is today, but saying that his Latin hustle style of dancing Mambo is the same as that danced by the ricans, cubans, jews from the 50s to the 70s is mere miss-information. By no means is what Eddie Teaches today what was being danced at the palladium in the 50s, as well as the mambo danced in the 70s in places such as cheetah club. What he teaches today is those things which he could manage to do back then, which was more of a Latin Hustle dance. I've spoken to countless old timers, even personal friends of Eddie's who Eddie himself can't explain when they ask, "What the heck did you do to mambo?".

They do however, give him all the credit in the world for keeping mambo on2 alive. Which ever way it is danced, the fact is that because of him, most likely many of us love it. He was an entrepreneur, he took what he could learn and made it into what we see today in NY City.

As we all know mambo has its origins from rhythyms in cuba, so does its dance. however, when watching Eddie dance his dancing technique is way too close to Latin hustle as opposed to the son montuno, rumba style that was danced in the 50s and the 70s, where the main part of the dance was body movements, or as some say, body shines, as opposed to "stiffer" body with lots of limb movements. On the contrary those who took it to an art form knew that arm movement was very little except when needed to stress different beats on the music. (It is an illusion moving the arms, the movement of the arms is caused by the sway of the midsection causing the natural looking motion of the arms) Hence, why so many NY City dancers swing their arms faster than any one beat in the song. They have erroneously being taught that they need to move the arms that much. That is Eddies Style, moving of the arms and feet as opposed to waist/torso. Remember, the legs and arms follow the body not the other way around. Hence why leads are said to start with the chest/torso instead of the hands. That is the main difference... Afro Cuban movements that Eddie couldn't translate into his dancing techinque... Then bang, Eddie's style was born, which there is nothing even close to wrong. That is his style..

By no means am I attempting to criticize Eddie's style or his immens contribution to mambo. The more difference the better, ala, salsa... :lol: I'm merely sharing the story as it is told by old post-palladium dancers every where in NY City.

[DanceMentor]

What a wonderful contribution, borikensalsero :!: :D
Much Appreciated.

[youngsta]

In every Eddie Torres interview I've read he never has claimed his style was the style danced at the Palladium. He says he built it from scratch and was influenced by the dances of the time (mainly hustle). He's considered a 2nd generation palladium dancer (never danced there)

[borikensalsero]

In every Eddie Torres interview I've read he never has claimed his style was the style danced at the Palladium. He says he built it from scratch and was influenced by the dances of the time (mainly hustle). He's considered a 2nd generation palladium dancer (never danced there)

Its amazing to see that not many people taught by Eddie Know of this fact. I actually find it amuzing when I'm told that I dance more of a rumba/son montuno style of dancing than Salsa. By Salsa they mean, salsa as per what Eddie dances, neglecting to see that Eddie's style is in reality taken more from Latin Hustle than son montuno/rumba... The biginning of salsa on2 with son montuno and the flavor of a rumba.

[salsaForfun]

For Cuban Video check out salsaisgood.com



Hi everyone,

I've recently moved to Toronto and found that while this city has a lot of really good LA + NY style instructors, I haven't been able to find good Cuban style intructors.

I want to continue learning cuban salsa, and was wondering if anyone could recomend a good video series for an intermediate level dancer.

So far, I am leaning towards the Salsa a la cubana series Salsaville. Has anyone had any experience with this series?

I'm starting on2 classes soon, and was also wondering if the Eddie Torres series would be a good supplement to my classes.

thanks,
-tomas

[edited by DanceMentor] We don't link to commercial products, except in the "Ads and Event Announcements section". That doesn't mean you can't refer to the name of the product as long as the purpose of the post doesn't appear commercial. Note: a Google search should find Salsaville. You can also post the name and URL of your website in your signature, but no ads please.

[Dennis Simmons]

As we all know, mambo has its origins from rhythyms in cuba, so does its dance. However, when watching Eddie [Eddie Torres] dance, his dancing technique is way too close to Latin hustle as opposed to the son montuno, rumba style that was danced in the 50s and the 70s, where the main part of the dance was body movements, or as some say, body shines, as opposed to "stiffer" body with lots of limb movements. On the contrary those who took it to an art form knew that arm movement was very little except when needed to stress different beats of the music. (It is an illusion moving the arms, the movement of the arms is caused by the sway of the midsection causing the natural looking motion of the arms) Hence, why so many NY City dancers swing their arms faster than any one beat in the song. They have erroneously being taught that they need to move the arms that much. That is Eddies Style, moving of the arms and feet as opposed to waist/torso. Remember, the legs and arms follow the body not the other way around. Hence why leads are said to start with the chest/torso instead of the hands. That is the main difference... Afro Cuban movements that Eddie couldn't translate into his dancing techinque... Then bang, Eddie's style was born, which there is nothing even close to wrong. That is his style.

Well, in none of my posts have I commented on style. My comments have been directed solely to the matter of dance timing. There are three principal latin dance timings. They are SALSA, the most recent entry, breaking on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain with transition counts (no step) 4 and 8, MAMBO / SON MONTUNO (the "quick quick slow" version of rumba) breaking on counts 2 and 6 with transitions on counts 4 and 8, and SON (the "slow quick quick" version of rumba) breaking on counts 3 and 7 with transitions on counts 2 and 6. The dance timing that Eddie uses is the dance timing of mambo as it has come to us from Cuba, realizing, of course that the term "mambo" is strictly New Yorkese (demonstrating one more time that Americans have never met a fad that they didn't like). If you ask Cubans about mambo they will look at you funny because they most likely have never heard the term and they have never used it to describe the music and dance that they know as rumba.

The mambo shines that Eddie teaches and uses in performance have borrowed heavily from modern and jazz dance techniques (which I take as the object of your reference to arm and leg movement) and have nothing to do with Cuban dance styles. Neverthless, it is my understanding that they are based on the open dance format (man and woman side by side) used by couples in dance competitions in places like the Palladium. On the other hand, with respect to partner dancing, Eddie has consistently taught his students to carry their forearms close to the body and level with the floor at all times when not using them to execute leads. Other than a natural sway of the arms that follows counter to movement of the hips, all movement occurs from the waist down. Hip movement is not made conciously, but follows as a natural consequence of foot placement and bending of the knee at weight changes, all of which is amply demonstrated in his video instruction set. Eddie's dance style is unquestionably elegant and sophisticated, much closer to Fred Astaire than it is to the folk dance of Cuba. What is authentic is the dance timing that he employs. To confirm that, you need only to ask for instruction in "quick quick slow" rumba at any ballroom dance studio. Unfortunately, those folks have the impression that the dance timings of rumba are suitable only for elevator music. It hasn't occurred to them that those dance timings are equally at home with the rocket-powered tempos brought to us by Arsenio Rodriguez (in which case, of course, you haven't the luxury of stepping side to side).

[borikensalsero]

As we all know, mambo has its origins from rhythyms in cuba, so does its dance. However, when watching Eddie [Eddie Torres] dance, his dancing technique is way too close to Latin hustle as opposed to the son montuno, rumba style that was danced in the 50s and the 70s, where the main part of the dance was body movements, or as some say, body shines, as opposed to "stiffer" body with lots of limb movements. On the contrary those who took it to an art form knew that arm movement was very little except when needed to stress different beats of the music. (It is an illusion moving the arms, the movement of the arms is caused by the sway of the midsection causing the natural looking motion of the arms) Hence, why so many NY City dancers swing their arms faster than any one beat in the song. They have erroneously being taught that they need to move the arms that much. That is Eddies Style, moving of the arms and feet as opposed to waist/torso. Remember, the legs and arms follow the body not the other way around. Hence why leads are said to start with the chest/torso instead of the hands. That is the main difference... Afro Cuban movements that Eddie couldn't translate into his dancing techinque... Then bang, Eddie's style was born, which there is nothing even close to wrong. That is his style.

Well, in none of my posts have I commented on style. My comments have been directed solely to the matter of dance timing. There are three principal latin dance timings. They are SALSA, the most recent entry, breaking on counts 1 and 5 of the 8-count musical refrain with transition counts (no step) 4 and 8, MAMBO / SON MONTUNO (the "quick quick slow" version of rumba) breaking on counts 2 and 6 with transitions on counts 4 and 8, and SON (the "slow quick quick" version of rumba) breaking on counts 3 and 7 with transitions on counts 2 and 6. The dance timing that Eddie uses is the dance timing of mambo as it has come to us from Cuba, realizing, of course that the term "mambo" is strictly New Yorkese (demonstrating one more time that Americans have never met a fad that they didn't like). If you ask Cubans about mambo they will look at you funny because they most likely have never heard the term and they have never used it to describe the music and dance that they know as rumba.

The mambo shines that Eddie teaches and uses in performance have borrowed heavily from modern and jazz dance techniques (which I take as the object of your reference to arm and leg movement) and have nothing to do with Cuban dance styles. Neverthless, it is my understanding that they are based on the open dance format (man and woman side by side) used by couples in dance competitions in places like the Palladium. On the other hand, with respect to partner dancing, Eddie has consistently taught his students to carry their forearms close to the body and level with the floor at all times when not using them to execute leads. Other than a natural sway of the arms that follows counter to movement of the hips, all movement occurs from the waist down. Hip movement is not made conciously, but follows as a natural consequence of foot placement and bending of the knee at weight changes, all of which is amply demonstrated in his video instruction set. Eddie's dance style is unquestionably elegant and sophisticated, much closer to Fred Astaire than it is to the folk dance of Cuba. What is authentic is the dance timing that he employs. To confirm that, you need only to ask for instruction in "quick quick slow" rumba at any ballroom dance studio. Unfortunately, those folks have the impression that the dance timings of rumba are suitable only for elevator music. It hasn't occurred to them that those dance timings are equally at home with the rocket-powered tempos brought to us by Arsenio Rodriguez (in which case, of course, you haven't the luxury of stepping side to side).

My comments weren't made as a counter argument to you, nor to demean anything you had to say. They were just a clarification to the misleading belief that people have about eddie and mambo.

Thank you for the fill in on your knowledge. To further expand on the term Mambo. The only time that Cubans won't know what you are referring to when speaking of Mambo is by seeing any one of us dance Mambo. They don't equal our style of mambo to anything they do when they dance mambo. When you ask a cuban to dance Mambo theyll most likely dance on1 plus there is an addition of a hop to it, with a lot of rumba/son montuno motions. By asking a cuban, I don't mean the regular person down the street who has a dilluted version of what mambo was. But an Afro-Cuban dancer with his training coming straight out of cuba. The term Mambo was used in cuba to mean the entry section of a song which was used to let the musicans know that they were to all meet and start playing in conjuction. It was first added to the danzon. Son also used it because son was always played as improv so the muscians needed to know when they had to meet to either end the song as one or to meet for a solo, or what ever else they needed to do.

That part of of danzon known as mambo was then taken by Arsenio Rodriguez and Orestes Lopez and turned into the Mambo made popular by Perez Prado. First in Cuba, then in mexico, then with the influence of Jazz Perez Prado finally mastered his technique to eventually come to the Mambo known in the US in the 50s. So while the less musicaly savvy Cubans won't know what I'm talking about in Mambo, rumba movements will indeed be applied to the Mambo they dance. There is no choice here, the natural rhythmic movement a cuban posseses has its roots in Afro-Cuban movements, which are in full display in rumbas, and also in display in their Mambo dancing. Since mambo came after Rumba there was no known way of dancing to it in cuba so they did to it what they knew better and that was do their rumba like movements to a different style of music, until they perfected it to it's way of dancing it today. While mambo dancing as we dance it now has its origin in the US, it true movement form comes from Cuba.

Correct, as you have mentioned, there is no aimless arm swinging and leg swinging in Afro-Cuban dance. If you watch Eddie dance, his arms are very well moving way fast in all direction. Even in his basic step when done to a faster song his arms are moving very rapidaly. In women their shoulders are rolled way fast, another no-no in afro cuban rhythms. And to a surprise that is Maria's Style of dancing. Hmmm... Remember that Eddie is known for his speed in dancing not his smoothness. He is speed. Eddie teaches students to keep his arms "close to the body", where as in afro-cuban dance the elbows are to be pretty wide appart from the body. Why? To understand this we must know the Religious belief of the country, since these dances where indeed at first done to invoke the GODs, and as it is called Pa' Bajar los muertos or santos. These dances make use of energy, so the arms must be apart from the body to allow a greater flow of energy in and out of the body. Having the elbows/arms close to the body minimizes and can prevent the flow of energy. Since Eddie didn't know this when he started, and as others his time, could only learn by watching. He followed those who learned by watching others instead of being taught the why, and how of body movements and details in Afro-Cuban dance that are absent in his style. Again, nothing worng with his style, I am just talking about the differences. To further expand, the arms is what keeps the upper body balanced when moving, keeping them close to the body only prevents better balance when doing the crazy and fast movements. To no surprise when you are about to fall, the body hoping to balance it self, natrually swings the arms outward as far from the body and as fast as it can. In continuation, no one walks with their forearms close to ther body as is possible, they actually hang a couple inches away form the body. Why stop the natural flow of the body and force an un-natural movement by keeping the forearms as close as possible to the body? The easiest way to feel freedom of energy is by pulling the arms out, the chest expands and there is a sense of freedom, if you will. We all do the same when we lose breath, we try to get the chest as free as we can, again, the body naturally acting takes the arms and extends them as far as it can from the body hoping to lessen constriction caused by the limbs which are close to the body, when the body is asking for space.

Movement doesn't come from the waist down as it is mainsteamly believed. Movemet genrates from the mid section, from the stomach area. The highest concentration of energy is from a mother and a child in the womb, here as well is where movement comes from. An energy class will teach/prove the high concentration of energy around the stomach area and how that specific area starts the movement of the body. Ploymentrics do teaches the same. For example, before you even take a step foward, the stomach muscles tighten and force a slight bend of the back readying itself to lift the leg, and warning the body about extra weight coming because of the absence of one leg on the floor. So, NO, movement doesn't start with the waist down, but indeed some do finish there. It is a mistaken belief that mainly eastern hemisphere residents posses.

In all,Eddie style is further away from that of Rumba, son muntuno style which was prevelant by trained version of mambo dancing done at the palladium by afro-cuban dancers who took the movements to an folk/cuban artistic form, after all the dance had its first steps there. While the dance's origin is said to be American because of the blending of all types of styles, the original movements have Afro-Cuban flavor. While there was a lot of arm movement at the palladium it was mainly done by those who really never had an in-depth training of Afro-cuban movements. These movements as el Chapulin colorado would say, are friamente calculados, as out of wack as they might look to an onlooker, they are indeed done on purpose, from the head to the toes. As you have referred, Eddie's closest thing to original mambo with cuban-flavor dancing is the timing.

Remember, Salsa is a street beat, always was until 1982 when louie Ramirez did an album remake of Mexican Rancheras as Salsa in a "mockery" of how anything can be done as a Salsa. Too bad this was Salsa's most successful album. :cry: Sophistication and elegance was only done when other dance styles indulged even deeper into Salsa. Even more style on top of Mambo and the change in style of music played gave birth to Eddie's Style. There is no need for elegancy when salsa in the 70s was known for its ghetto tough mentality, ala Juanito Alimana. How well does a nice sophisticated dance go with it? It can go with salsa, however not the 70's street beat of salsa, which calls for a lot of improv, body movement, etc... At least in my opinion. :D

[salsa-surfer]

Hi!

I've got the whole series of salsa a la cubana.
This is an excellent course if it's enough for you, brujo, to have a lot of different turns/combos demonstrated with the music and then counted slowly by Eric Freeman.

What i do not like about the series is the fact that they explain only very little about the decisive things in this style except for the 1. video, where all the explaining and hints are made in spanisch by the cuban dance instructors(so be careful).


There are some new videos at salsaville with cuban moves as well.


As for the videos with NY2(Eddie Torres style) i can highly recommend videos by "Seaon "Stylist" Bristol, a pupil of Eddie Torres.
All of the instruction on his videos is made the Eddie Torres way as well, perfectly explained and demonstrated in all details.
Something of a negativ thing thou is repeating the same tings a lot of times from different views(upper body, feet, left/right side) at the cost of more/new things.

[Salsero_AT]

For cuban style videos also try www.salsaville.com

[janeyoung]

Hi

Regarding the salsaville collection. I have seen a couple of them. They are ok; lots of different figures. The dos mujeres section is quite good. Rather complicated to learn from. The breakdown in my mind is not very good. But good for demonstrational purposes

Regards
Jane

[tangotime]

Most of you have seen my posts, if not, then briefly , have been dancing Mambo / salsa since the late fifities, probably before any of you were born and-- was d. director in n.y.c. in the very early sixties before eddie had taken step one !-- Clarification-- the original box, as it is called in mambo-- starts side l. on one and breaks back r on 2 ,repeat same in opposite direction . This step was designed from the beginning movement of bolero and-- incidentally -- still taught the same way in all chain schools . If any of you could see the dancers of that era perform- it had no relationship todays world of spin . spin , spin . Was all about the MUSIC ! -- side by side " routines " were very common among the accomplished ( non Trained ) dancers .fun to watch. that is how " Latinos expressed their joy with the music. Todays " dancers " for the most part ( latinos excepted ) just dont get it !! .Have taught all over the world, and currently in the u.k. The ideas that they have imported ,are so far off base, and if one tries to educate, they get very defensive as though the " genre " belongs to them !! .NOT their fault. a lot of mis information being dished out by " Teachers ? " who are way in over their heads. Majority have never been in a true latino club ( you know the type I mean, all announcements in spanish etc. ) and so have no frame of reference .I spent multi yrs embracing the culture, mainly with p.ricans, trying to learn the language and loving every minute of it . ( I need my latino fix real bad ) I also realise that their have been significant musical changes ( 2/ 4 time to 4 /4 time-- huge difference ) and when I show some of those here what the mambo steps of that era were like its like showing them a foreign language . I personally dont teach most of them , they dont fit with the current musical style . Pity -- there is so much cute material laying dormant. I think the comparison of past and present, unless you happen to have been as lucky as am I, then it becomes guess work.Leave you with this.Worked in l.a. 1960, 61, 2 and 3. had the good fortune to dance to Puente -Tito Rodriguez, Machito and Rene Touzet to name but a few. The golden era of mambo all live and all FREE . ( afterthought ,was once told by a very old cuban from what or where the word mambo meant - his answer- its what we shout when see the ladies walking down the street swinging their hips ! )

[amo_dile_que_no]

A lot of very interesting information. I really enjoy reading these kinds of discussions.

Thank goodness I can still enjoy whatever it is I do to whatever it is they are playing when I think it's salsa/mambo. :)

I sincerely do appreciate reading all the history, etc. Keep it coming.

[Salcero]

I agree with Bro. about ET. As far as the videos by Salsaville, I have the entire set and think it is beneficial. If you are a Canadian citizen, you really might want to consider a salsa trip to Cuba as well, if your finances allow for it. Before Bush shut things down there were organized trips to Cuba from the USA specifically for dancing.

[tangotime]

You just made Cuban Pete in Miami cringe !!! you need to check who is still
around from the " Old school " before making claims or re- phrase it as a question .

[Salcero]

You just made Cuban Pete in Miami cringe !!! you need to check who is still
around from the " Old school " before making claims or re- phrase it as a question .

Who are you referrring to?

[tangotime]

This why i get a little ticked off. Until you have experienced the " mambo kings of the "past " , dont elevate anyone ,until they ( the old guard ) are no longer with us. Okay, who is cuban Pete ? He is one of the all time greats , along with killer joe piro, doug and don ramos, rocki mari , and steve peck all from late fifities and sixties guys ( many more ) ( like me ). They used to teach out of n.y. and some from l.a.-- tend to keep low profile , people who I am sure eddie emulated, like we all did . As I recall , pete wrote an article about a couple of yrs ago and it appeared on the net; think it was an interview .Forgot to add the mambo aces .Eddie,s biggest claim , in my opinion, is his marketing skills. There are numerous great teachers around with proven successes , apparently you dont move around in my world .

[Salcero]

This why i get a little ticked off. Until you have experienced the " mambo kings of the "past " , dont elevate anyone ,until they ( the old guard ) are no longer with us. Okay, who is cuban Pete ? He is one of the all time greats , along with killer joe piro, doug and don ramos, rocki mari , and steve peck all from late fifities and sixties guys ( many more ) ( like me ). They used to teach out of n.y. and some from l.a.-- tend to keep low profile , people who I am sure eddie emulated, like we all did . As I recall , pete wrote an article about a couple of yrs ago and it appeared on the net; think it was an interview .Forgot to add the mambo aces .Eddie,s biggest claim , in my opinion, is his marketing skills. There are numerous great teachers around with proven successes , apparently you dont move around in my world .

Ooh OK, hopefully you are not ticked off at me cause I never said anything about the old school dancers. I guess you must be talking about the previous pages and I haven’t read through those posts. I only read Boriken’s posts and agreed with his assessment.

That being said, I have the utmost respect for ‘Cuban” Pete. He has made a name for himself in Miami and it sounds like he is doing well in Miami. Some people even think Puerto Rican Pete is Cuban.

As far as Eddie Torres’ influences, I rarely if ever have heard anyone mention Pete. I hear folks mention JoJo Smith or Freddie Rios, but the person I hear mentioned the most is Luis Maquina, a legend in NYC among mambo/salsa aficionados and the people that were there “back in the day.” http://www.salsatalks.com/articles/eddietorres.html.

Obviously, I wasn’t there, but to give you some insight into Pete here are the words of Luis Maquina, “Cuban Pete was the worst dancer that I’ve ever seen but Cuban Pete married Millie. Millie, she was a Jewish woman. There was a big crowd of Jewish people because the Jewish people loved salsa and they were very good at it. Millie was in that crowd. Now Cuban Pete got accepted in this crowd because he was a fuese cara, what we call fuese cara, you understand? The translation is stoneface. As far as dancing was concerned, he was not a dancer. Cuban Pete was not a dancer.” http://www.salsaweb.com/features/maquina.htm

A true legend that deserves a lot of respect is Ernie Ensly, who still plays classic mambo at Orchard during the summer and received recognition at last year's NY Salsa Congress.

[tangotime]

numero uno-- entiendo. i was trying to make the point ( not succesfully it seems) that to place someone on a pedestal before checking to see if there are any other contenders, bare,s discussion. I am very well aware of his place in the hierachy. Also, its a very subjective judgement, i included him in the mix because he was an integral part of that community .I know of the person about who you are speaking . The difference is -- I worked both coasts and so have more comparisons The west coast guys never to my knowledge, ventured east ( pity );. dont disagree that he deserves his place in the same company,but, after seeing Steve Peck dance, he puts many of them to shame. He finished up in movies, actually got a role with Sinatra and several other choice parts. do not know if he is still around. there is no definitive answer to this discussion , and maybe my memory dims with age, lastly ,, borinken and I are pretty much on the same page about most things and his posts are always a pleasure to read. For me, great to be reminded about the past " Salseros " to whom I will always be indebted .

[tangotime]

Forgot to mention this--, have had one helluva time trying to make the brits. understand this thing about not flayling arms !! ( eddies influence ) still cannot understand why people do not feel this action un-natural . Ive also seen this passed on to several u.s. cities where I was teaching .One may attach the word "style " to the action but it seems so counter productive and really, by and large, nothing to do with the musical interpretation. Will throw out an old movement we used to dance called " swing mambo " (---many of the younger ones will think i am talking about the dance !! ) danced from a shine position also ibo rythm .Seems that most of the truer nature of the dance has given way to things way out of context . just my opinion .

[Neil]

The Salsaville series is taught by Eric Freeman, right? He's a New York style dancer who picked up some Cuban dancing on vacation. Why not go with an expert Cuban dancer like Henry Herrera. He left Cuba several years ago, but he continues to dance mostly the Cuban style, although he spent a few months partnered with Edie the Salsa Freak who dances mostly L.A. style. www.salsaracing.com

[amo_dile_que_no]

The Salsaville series is taught by Eric Freeman, right? He's a New York style dancer who picked up some Cuban dancing on vacation. Why not go with an expert Cuban dancer like Henry Herrera. He left Cuba several years ago, but he continues to dance mostly the Cuban style, although he spent a few months partnered with Edie the Salsa Freak who dances mostly L.A. style. www.salsaracing.com (http://www.salsaracing.com)
I have DVDs from both Freeman and Herrera and I like them both. They definitely have different styles.

Freeman has some Cuban-inspired moves in his Salsa Addict series that he teaches, but he is not the instructor in the Salsa a la Cubana series. The people doing the dancing & instructing are native Cubans. Freeman basically set it all up in Cuba and did the filming and of course the marketing. So, I don't think it's fair to say that you are getting second-rate instruction. I have a lot of DVDs and I think Eric Freeman's are very good.

I also really like Henry Herrera. He is definitely primarily Cuban-style and he does a lot of Rueda too. His dancing is probably more stylized than the Cuban dancers in Freeman's series. I am just learning to dance On2, but I also adapt many of his turns & movements to On1 which is the style I currently dance. It's not really all that difficult to adapt them and it's a lot of stuff you don't see around here, which I definitely like.

Herrera also has a beginner's video called "Social Night Life" that gives some basics for salsa, merengue, & bachata along with a few turns for variety. I would highly recommend this one for someone who is just starting out dancing to latin music.

So I would recommend DVDs from both instructors. They are among my favorites. There are a lot of others I like too and pick up stuff from them. I think I have a certain style in regard to the types of movements I like. I'm picking up a lot of things from different sources that are blending into "my style".