Country --> Ballroom. What gives?

[pygmalion]

So what's the deal with competitive C&W dancing? From what I see, at least C&W partner dancing is getting closer and closer to ballroom dance. Yes, the costumes, styling and comp rules are a bit different. But it seems to me that competitive country is moving closer and closer to ballroom dance.


Do you agree? If so, why do you think that is? And, long run, is it a good or bad thing for C&W dance as an art form?

[Chris Stratton]

I'd be tempted to say that a lot of characteristis of ballroom are the logical result of a few basic starting assumptions: within those, people have found the methods that work best.

Pure speculation (I know nothing about the style) but if the underlying assumptions of C&W aren't dramatically different, it's understandable it might evolve in similar directions. Perhaps even without the existence of ballroom as an influence - and probably with the existence of such an influence. Unless an anti-ballroom backlash developes where people my try to keep things distinct even at the cost of rejecting good ideas for looking too much like ballroom.

[AnnieMarie]

There are *some* distinctive aspects to competitive Country Western Dance. For Example Cha Cha...is a mix of International and American style.

I don't get to watch as much ballroom stuff as would like so it's hard to compare. I know we do lots and lots and lots and lots of spins and turns in CW. It's one of the hallmarks...I think. (Please do not take me as a definitive source.)

Our costuming is a little more conservative than ballroom.

I would say one of the main differences is that..we try to keep the music with some sort of Country or Western influence. Although that is starting to change some.

What it boils down too..is good dance technique is good dance technique. As you get dancers in CW with more formal training the style will evolve somewhat.

Competive Country dance looks a lot more "formal" than what you see at the bar on the weekend.

Ann (who is itching to dance...but I'm being good.)

[Chris Stratton]

There are *some* distinctive aspects to competitive Country Western Dance. For Example Cha Cha...is a mix of International and American style.

That could be read to imply tht C&W cha cha is closer to both International and American cha cha than they are to each other!

[AnnieMarie]

Chris,
They aren't separated like they are on the ballroom circuit. We mix the "moves." That's the best way I can put it. I haven't studied ballroom so I couldn't tell you what is "American" and what is "International." I just know that we mix them together.

[jon]

I remember chatting with Grant Austin over a decade ago about how a bunch of ballroom instructors had come over to country because that's where the money was, at the time. IIRC he was one of them.

In terms of technique and mechanics and such, whatever cross-pollination was going to occur already has. They will remain distinct in terms of music and culture and such.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris,
They aren't separated like they are on the ballroom circuit. We mix the "moves." That's the best way I can put it. I haven't studied ballroom so I couldn't tell you what is "American" and what is "International." I just know that we mix them together.

But both are considered part of the ballroom family - so by describing C&W cha cha as a mix of the two, you aren't differentiating it from ballroom at all.
(Practically speaking, in a lot of places social ballroom is also done as a mix of figures between the two styles)

[jon]

But both are considered part of the ballroom family - so by describing C&W cha cha as a mix of the two, you aren't differentiating it from ballroom at all.

I'd say the principal differences between country & American ballroom CC are just in the music, which does not even pretend to be Latin influenced (think Brooks & Dunn "Neon Moon" or "My Maria", or Mindy McCready "Ten Thousand Angels" (*)), and in a much larger amount of spinning expected of the followers.

(*) A song that eventually made me want to pluck my eyes out on a trip from Chapel Hill to New Orleans, as it was being massively overplayed by country radio stations, which were all I could pick up in rural Alabama and Tennessee.

[Chris Stratton]

and in a much larger amount of spinning expected of the followers.

as opposed to leaders in latin ;-)

[Kitty]

Is there a syllabus for CW competitions?

[AnnieMarie]

Kitty,
Right now there is no "syllabus." Bronze, silver, and gold syllabus"..at least for Pro/Am is in the process of being developed. This is a change from the "step list" format currently in place.

Ann

[pygmalion]

Yup. Just reinforcing why I asked the question. "Syllabus" is a ballroom thing. Scary.

[SDsalsaguy]

Umm, clearly I'm missing something. How is a "syllabus" different from a "step list"? :oops:

[pygmalion]

Maybe I should google? I bet there are articles out there. I'm confused. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

Well, at leats I'm glad to see that its not just me... :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

Umm, clearly I'm missing something. How is a "syllabus" different from a "step list"? :oops:

Possibly, a syllabus might theoretically have originally been a guide to teaching dance more than a format for competition. You might expect it to somewhere exist as a technical description of how to do the figures, rather than just a list of steps. But this may be total imagination - in popular usage, the terms seem equivelent.

[AnnieMarie]

Sorry everyone. This is brand new. Currently we just have a "step list" for the newcomer/novice levels. My understanding is that the "syllabus" program is going to more clearly define and develop concepts beyond this beginner level. Right now in the UCWDC I believe this will only apply to the Pro/Am divisions.

I know...I'm not helping...I'm just giving my understanding of what has recently been revised according the UCWDC rules. IF I have time later I will go copy the exact wording out of the recent rules update.

Sorry for confusing everyone.

Ann

[AnnieMarie]

• Pro-Am Newcomer: The current Newcomer Step List will be suspended immediately in favor of the Couples Newcomer Rules. Instead of a Step List, we will develop a true multi-level (Bronze, Silver, Gold) Country Dance teaching syllabus, complete with paperwork and videos, that may be sold to dance studios, educational institutions, recreational facilities, or other interested organizations or private individuals. There are “new” timing allowances and limitations listed for Newcomer couples, and therefore shall now apply to Newcomer Pro-Am students, included in the “2004 Couples Dance Rules” posted on the internet. It is highly recommended that contestants and judges familiarize themselves with these new rules as soon as possible!

I am sure this also to add some revenue to the UCWDC coffers.

After rereading this...I also think they are trying to make the "couples" rules and the "Pro/Am" rules a little more standardized and compatible.

Right now it is a little confusing but I believe they are trying to streamline the rules somewhat. :)

[pygmalion]

That's actually pretty interesting, AnnieMarie. Confusing, too, but hey, that's not your doing. Blame the UCWDC. LOL.

It sounds like they're fleshing out the existing steps names/descriptions with more technical information about how to execute the patterns. Um ... did I say ballroom? It'll be interesting to see the videos and/or manuals when they come out.

[AnnieMarie]

Yes...at least as far as couples...they are moving more and more toward ballroom type formats. I think in an effort to make things more clearly defined.

[Vince A]

AM,
You keep up these good answers in the C&W forum, and I'm gonna put you in for 'moderator' on that forum . . . nice to read that you are "looking at those rules."

[etchuck]

Hmm... wonder if anyone would want to do a similar move with step lists in swing or salsa... hmm... hmm...

[pygmalion]

Only if they wanted to be tarred, feathered, and run out of town. :shock: :lol:

[twnkltoz]

I understand that at one point, there was a movement of people who wanted to keep country dancing "country," and not allow the influences of ballroom. However, this was a small movement and not mainstream.

[Vince A]

I understand that at one point, there was a movement of people who wanted to keep country dancing "country," and not allow the influences of ballroom. However, this was a small movement and not mainstream.
I'm not to sure about what I'm about to write, but I think that was "the main topic" of the CWDI . . . country, country, country, and although I tend to agree, the UCWDC does that, but has cleaned up the dancing for those who want to dance more and maybe for those who want to crossover and blend the two.

Many UCWDC dancers also do Ballroom, and one of the best crossovers that I've seen is RJ Sentino (not sure of the spelling of his last name).

[jon]

Arjay Centeno

[Vince A]

Arjay Centeno
Thanks gahn . . . .

[pygmalion]

Since I'm a dance and music generalist, I'm all for crossover, sorry to say. But doesn't that mean corrupting the art form, for country music, especially?

[DancingMommy]

not corrupting..... evolving.... ;)

[Vince A]

I agree with the 'evolve.' C&W music is not the same as when, just a few years back, Garth Brooks was so popular.

Now it is close to 'rock and roll,' if not downright 'rock.'

The dancing is also evolving.

The Two Step dance has grown from swaying and a place for the man to put his beer so it doesn't spill to a center up, correct-framed, dance, where the men now have to 'prep' their ladies.

Now it's not a matter of how many beers you can drink, it's how many moves you can do in one trip around the perimeter of the dance floor!