Shadow Right Turns

[Warren J. Dew]

Okay, so we're going to do a show in a couple of weeks, and we've just put together an American style waltz. In one place, we do continuity shadow right turns for a few bars, with the last bar being a forward half, then end by my spinning the lady along line of dance, starting backward on the left foot.

I'm trying to decide between two positions for my right hand during the shadow right turns. I can either put it on the lady's hip, which makes the lead for the spin easy, but means that my right arm doesn't match may left arm (which is out) or the lady's arms, or I can put it on the lady's shoulder blade, which makes my arm lines match, but means I have to move my hand and find her hip with it to lead the spin.

Thoughts?

[Gumby]

I do these in my V Waltz routine and speaking as a follow I would vote for hip. A much more secure lead - and better connection.

[Larinda McRaven]

Your right arm should be in approximately the same position as if you were in closed. If she were to turn to face you would you like the line your arm is making??? If not then it doesn't look good in shadow either.

Also, staying above her center of gravity helps to keep her from breaking her sides as she sways. I find when the guys arm is too low, then there is a slight subconcious(sp) downward pull that distorts her shape. If your hand/connection is higher it keeps her shape pulled up and out, same as closed position.

I am not sure why you need to move your hand lower to lead her spin?

[Joe]

Perhaps you could put your right hand on her hip or around her waist, and the left hand round the front on her stomach or ribcage, in a kind of cuddle position. Unless you're in a really side-by-side shadow position.

[Warren J. Dew]

Thanks, everyone.

I am not sure why you need to move your hand lower to lead her spin?

Because we miss the lead for the lady's pivots about 50% of the time when I lead it from higher. (I haven't done shadow right turns in about 10 years and she's never done them before.) As Gumby says, I get a lot more control when I have my hand on her hip. But maybe that just means I need to work on the lead.

Joe, we are indeed pretty much beside each other, plus my left arm is in a line out from the shoulder, so it's pretty far away from her. If I were willing to use my left hand, I could probably just take her left hand in it; I think the lead would be pretty easy with two hands.

[Larinda McRaven]

If you are trying to lead her turn from shadow you are not giving her an opportunity or place to turn to.

Your right hip must move out of her way first. So that means YOU turn inside the "circle" first (big no no in standard). Try swiveling on your left foot on the 1, instead of swinging to the 2, and point open your right hip and foot. She will feel a HUGE sense of space and freedom, making it much eaiser to turn. Then once she gets going follow through with your upper body in the ultimate direction she is turning to.

So basically she will only move effeciently in the direction of your hip and foot. If you are staying in shadow your hip and foot are not pointing where you are hoping she goes, then you are forced to "move" her with your hand, instead of "allowing" her to go. She doesn't need to be "turned" or pushed, she needs your body to make a shape that invites her turn.

Just as you wouldn't use your hand to steer her in standard, you shouldn't have to use it in smooth either.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm now really struggling to understand this... what exactly is the lady going to be doing? I got the sense that at the point of release you are both sort of backing LOD... so where does she go from there?

I know I actually did this myself in a mini-show, but I can't picture how it worked (and I don't recall it being a "strong" action) maybe I should try to find the video.

[Warren J. Dew]

Just got back from a practice where we were working on this (among other things).

Your right hip must move out of her way first. So that means YOU turn inside the "circle" first (big no no in standard). Try swiveling on your left foot on the 1, instead of swinging to the 2, and point open your right hip and foot. She will feel a HUGE sense of space and freedom, making it much eaiser to turn.

Actually the issue wasn't so much that the space wasn't there, but that she didn't know it was there or what it was there for, because the lead and figure were unfamiliar. Even with the lead coming from the body, she still has to feel it through whatever contact points we have, since she can't see me and our lead-follow connection isn't telepathic yet.

With the position we are taking in shadow - I'm much more beside her than behind her - the only contact she had was my right hand on her back. I think my hand on her hip worked better because it then went around her right side a bit (because her waist is narrower than her shoulders) and because more of my arm was against her back, both of which gave her more information about where I was. With my hand on her back, the only thing she felt when I rotated on step 1 was my hand moving off of her back, which was not enough for her to tell what was going on.

We spent fifteen stressful minutes working on that - including getting her to use where the back of her left arm brushes against my chest to help her figure out where I was - and I also decreased the offset a couple inches so my right hand went around her ribcage a bit more. That seemed to work, though it still feels a little iffy.

I had an interesting thought about what would happen if she turned around, as you posted earlier. Because of the amount of offset we're taking, that wouldn't be a closed position - but it would be the right side to right side position we use for the American style standing spin. Where do you like the man's right hand for that figure? If I put it high on her left side, the dynamics of the spin are good, but my arm is squashing her, uh, chest....

I'm now really struggling to understand this... what exactly is the lady going to be doing? I got the sense that at the point of release you are both sort of backing LOD... so where does she go from there?

To oversimplify, the lady takes three pivots, LRL, back forward back. Then she keeps pivoting until I lead her to do something else.

[Warren J. Dew]

Thanks everybody! We went for the higher arm line a Larinda suggested, and made sure we practiced it enough that we didn't miss the lead/follow for the exit. Here's a page with a link to the video:

www.powderhouse.com/~wdew/dance/

Comments welcome!

[Chris Stratton]

Wow!

You don't often get to see how beautiful these figures are in a "classic smooth" interpretation that cleanly shows some of the lines often lost in oveshaping.

[Larinda McRaven]

hey, where is the rest of the dance????

fantastic syncronization on your foot speeds!

[Elizabeth]

hey, where is the rest of the dance????


Oh, you mean the part where I step in the wrong direction, lose my balance, overshape and break my line? I think you can convince Warren to put that part up too. :oops:

[Warren J. Dew]

hey, where is the rest of the dance????
I wasn't sure people would want to download the whole dance ... plus the shadow right turns are probably the best performed part, anyway. But I've put the whole dance up now, through a different link on the same page. It's up to you dance forums folks to give us comments on the rest of it so we can improve that too!

[Katarzyna]

Really nice waltz Warren!!! I saw you teach smooth before, but I've never seen you dance :)

[Warren J. Dew]

Thanks, Katherine.

I actually felt that we were spending most of our cycles remembering the figures during the performance. To me, the tape looks more like a starting point for improvements in technique and styling than like a finished product.

We'll probably continue to refine it, though we may not get any more opportunities to perform it.