Purposeful Intimidation in Social Dancing

[DanceMentor]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like whenever my wife and I go to the partty at a studio here in town that especially caters to competitors, that there is a competition going on at the dance. For example, when we are doing a travelling dance, it seems like people will do things to cut us off. We are pretty good dancers and maybe we are some sort of threat to them. I just don't know. It's one of those things that you can never be sure if someone was purposely trying to get in your way at a social dance, but it seems to happen more often at this particular studio. Have you ever experienced anything like this?

[BeefHero]

I have't been to that many ballroom parties yet. The ones I've been to involve mostly old folks. Whenever my partner and I go to these parties to practice, we always run into lots of people just because we travel more (like all competitior do). Sometimes we just happen to run into the same people over and over again. I don't know if you have the same case, but that's just my partner and I in our town.

If particular people are trying to cut you off on purpose, they don't really deserve to be dancers. I mean seriously. They are doing a gentleman's sport but they do not possess the essence of a gentleman.

[robin]

I think it's very easy to assume someone's purposefully "cutting you off", be it in a competition or in a social dance. It's surprisingly difficult to actually cut someone off in a subtle way.

I've tried it with a friendly couple in a practice hall once, and it is hard enough to predict where they're going to go. Following them works, but only at the expense of the quality of our own dancing. I'd be very impressed with someone who can dance their best while intentionally cutting off another couple...

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that when someone "cuts me off", it's a) probably just a coincidence and b) seeing they're there first, i'm the one responsible for any crash. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but i reckon out of 10 times i thought someone intentionally danced in my way, at least 9 i was wrong. In the end i'm better off giving everyone the benefit of the doubt...

[Joe]

If there's a space, it belongs to whomever gets there first, no matter whether or not you intended to do so. As long as the other couple gets there first and does not jostle you in order to do so, it's their space and you need to do a better job of avoiding them.

If you are frustrated with them for always being around you, consider that they are very likely frustrated with you for always being around them.

[Elizabeth]

I'd agree, they're not cutting you off deliberately. In fact, they're probably unaware of you except as a moving obstacle on the dance floor that they need to avoid. Social floors get crowded, and couple zoom into any free space that opens up. Its nothing personal.

I remember one guy who apparently did take it personally. When Warren first started taking me dancing we went to a variety of social dances. Even though I was a beginner we moved at least twice as far as the average couple, so we were constantly passing people. Warren is really good at not hitting anyone, but after one dance a guy came up to Warren and was really upset at Warren for cutting him off. (Neither of us had even noticed him before this.) He was taller than Warren and a good deal heavier. Clearly thinking his size gave him an advantage that his dancing did not he started shaking his fist in Warren's face and threatening to settle this outside.

Moral of the story: Don't take it personally, because its not personal. Also, if you must take it personally remember that competitors have partners before you start threatening them. :wink:

[etchuck]

I'd worry more about people crashing into you. I always get into trouble there.

I would doubt that anyone would intentionally try to cut you off, just as one shouldn't be intentionally cutting dancers off at a competition (but who knows, right?). Most dancers just are dancing what they know or doing their routines -- again, which I prefer one does on their own time on a practice floor when there are no obstacles on the floor. Perhaps they want to practice their routines in the context of one of many couples at a "social dance", but I just am not a big fan of that either.

I'm not entirely sure exactly what to say other than stay closer to the center during traveling dances so the speeders can pass you closer to the wall. Stay further out in more stationary dances near the middle of walls.

[DancingMommy]

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. ;)

Actually, I have an OSB on tape where the Pro Standard final this happens.... And it was SO obvious from the bird's eye view camera that it was happening.

Do you know many people at that studio? If they are a competitive studio, have you competed against anyone there? Is it possible someone there has a beef with you from way back? Beauty pageants aren't the only industry where cattiness abounds...

[Porfirio Landeros]

Clearly thinking his size gave him an advantage that his dancing did not he started shaking his fist in Warren's face and threatening to settle this outside.

So what happened outside? :twisted:

I think Joe was right... the space really is first come first served. Although, their is common courtesy, too, which means if you let that fast person have the space and blow bye you, that keeps them off your back for at least one lap.

I've never been yelled at, but I had a professional friend that was - shaking fist and all. I really tend to take it down a notch or two when dancing in a big group, but when a lane opens up, I have no problem taking the chance to use one open left box to take the whole longside (people kind of get out of the way so they can watch ;-)).

[Warren J. Dew]

So what happened outside? :twisted:

Well, let's just say he doesn't bother us any more.

Warren

(Okay, what actually happened: I was kind of speechless because I not only couldn't remember cutting him off, I couldn't remember seeing him on the dance floor at all. Before I could react, Elizabeth stepped up to him, nose to nose, told him off, and offered to beat him up outside. He retreated in confusion.

(After that, Elizabeth had a good argument that the "protect" phrase belonged in her wedding vow rather than in mine!)

[Porfirio Landeros]

Before I could react, Elizabeth stepped up to him, nose to nose, told him off, and offered to beat him up outside. He retreated in confusion.

THAT_IS_AWESOME :D

[ratherbdancing]

With the experiences I have had with couples cutting other couples off, more often then not they aren't necessarily doing it on purpose. But they are just demonstrating really bad etiquette by not paying attention to any other couples around them. Especially with social dances, you should ALWAYS be cautious so that you don't run into other couples, but usually floors are crowded so not all accidents can be avoided.

[Warren J. Dew]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like whenever my wife and I go to the partty at a studio here in town that especially caters to competitors, that there is a competition going on at the dance. For example, when we are doing a travelling dance, it seems like people will do things to cut us off. We are pretty good dancers and maybe we are some sort of threat to them. I just don't know. It's one of those things that you can never be sure if someone was purposely trying to get in your way at a social dance, but it seems to happen more often at this particular studio. Have you ever experienced anything like this?
They almost certainly aren't doing it on purpose. Competitors just naturally go for any open space, and if they happen to get there before you, it may seem like they "cut you off" on purpose - but it's much more likely that they just wanted to get to the nice open space where they could dance out. You could even take it as a compliment that they trust your floorcraft enough to know you won't just barge through and crash into them.

When I get "cut off" like that, I take it as an opportunity to use my floorcraft - varying my next figure to go off in another direction around them, or whatever. If you get stuck often, you could ask your instructor to give you some figures that are useful in that kind of situation (checks and stuff).

[Phil Owl]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like whenever my wife and I go to the partty at a studio here in town that especially caters to competitors, that there is a competition going on at the dance. For example, when we are doing a travelling dance, it seems like people will do things to cut us off. We are pretty good dancers and maybe we are some sort of threat to them. I just don't know. It's one of those things that you can never be sure if someone was purposely trying to get in your way at a social dance, but it seems to happen more often at this particular studio. Have you ever experienced anything like this?

I know what you mean. I've seen it happen at some swing dances too, just seems like there's one in every crowd that just has to show off their huge ego (but relatively smaller intelligence) by completely disregarding others around them. I haven't felt "targeted" as such but still it annoys me all the same when someone tries to show off and comes out a complete jackass in the attempt.

Funny thing is, I've encountered a lot less of it here in Atlanta than I did back up in Beantown.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm pretty regularly on the floor with more advanced competition couples, and once I started to feel like it was okay for me to be there (intruding on their space), I find them no longer intimidating. Most have good control and if they miss and hit us... oh well. I'm no longer very appologetic about spoiling someone's routine, especially if what puts me in their way is more characteristic of the dance than the routine they are attempting.

Social dancing, there are really only two things I have tended to find intimidiationg about other couples. The first is people doing things really out of character with a dance - specficially a wall of quick pivots in foxtrot. Something like that which doesn't really "fit" ends up looking out of control, and thus dangerous.

The other is on occasion when dancing with really new beginners such that I realize it's best to get us to the center and just do stationary boxes. It turns out not to be safe place - one reason is that competition couples do try to make use of the center. Another is that there are enough slow/stationary couples around the outside that it's quite natural for those moving to dodge to any free area at the center. Of course since this makes the center unsafe, it's no wonder the stationary beginners stay at the edges. People standing on the edge of the floor tend to add to the problem too... less popular dances like quickstep can often have couples not intending to dance taking far more than a resonable amount of time to clear the floor.

Purposefully intimidating others: I tend to save that for one common, but extremely unwise habit. Lots of people get bronze quickstep routines that aren't as long as a competition wall, and end in a natural hesitation turn. You'll get a whole bunch of couples travelling down a wall together, then one pops the heel pull hesitation at about the 2/3 mark and prepares to cut across everyone's path onto an improperly placed short wall. I've mastered the "if you do that I WILL run you over" stare for this occasion, and it usually persuades them to delay. Wiser ones would learn to figure out when it's appropriate to extend the wall closer to the actual corner. Or if you do your natural and see other couple bearing down on you, to simply do a backlock running finish to stay in your lane until they have a chance to turn inside you. (Yes, today I could do a fishtail... but then the couple behind me has to do TWO fishtails... )

[jon]

Competitors just naturally go for any open space, and if they happen to get there before you, it may seem like they "cut you off" on purpose - but it's much more likely that they just wanted to get to the nice open space where they could dance out.

I am grateful that professional race car drivers do not behave similarly in their highway driving.

[Chris Stratton]

Competitors just naturally go for any open space, and if they happen to get there before you, it may seem like they "cut you off" on purpose - but it's much more likely that they just wanted to get to the nice open space where they could dance out.

I am grateful that professional race car drivers do not behave similarly in their highway driving.

In situations where the traffic does not self-segragate to maintain a speed gradient across the lanes, many impatient drivers end up doing precisely that. You really realize the lack of good habits when while driving alone in the middle of a three-lane road an overtaking car chooses to pass you in the slow lane...

[Another Elizabeth]

Actually, I think you can't generalize about which are the "safe" areas of the floor - it varies from dance to dance, and perhaps even from crowd to crowd. In foxtrot, the middle is decidedly not safe, because so many groups travel into the center as they go down the long side. The safest place for a really stationary couple is probably the center of a long side of the floor. In quickstep, on the other hand, the center is probably your best bet, since the beginning/intermediate traveling dancers will probably mostly stick to the outside, and the advanced dancers are more able to steer around stationary couples.

[jon]

In situations where the traffic does not self-segragate to maintain a speed gradient across the lanes, many impatient drivers end up doing precisely that. You really realize the lack of good habits when while driving alone in the middle of a three-lane road an overtaking car chooses to pass you in the slow lane...

Yes, there are idiots everywhere including dance floors and highways. Not what I was getting at, however.

[Warren J. Dew]

You really realize the lack of good habits when while driving alone in the middle of a three-lane road an overtaking car chooses to pass you in the slow lane...
Wouldn't the "slow" lane be the lane the slower car is in?

Frankly, I don't see the issue. I've been cut off by a race car seemingly on the way home from a race, and his taillights disappeared so fast I didn't even have time to slow down. The general rule in the Boston area seems to be that it's okay to cut someone off if you don't then slow them down, and that seems fine to me: people get where they are going just as fast, and some get there faster. On dance floors, it doesn't even matter how fast you get there. No reason to turn things into some kind of ego battle just to feel offended.

I'm aware that the highway culture in California is rather different, though. Dance floorcraft cultures could also vary, I suppose.

[Chris Stratton]

You really realize the lack of good habits when while driving alone in the middle of a three-lane road an overtaking car chooses to pass you in the slow lane...
Wouldn't the "slow" lane be the lane the slower car is in?



The underlying design assumption in a drive on the right country is that the leftmost lane is the fastest. Given an equal choice of passing on a car in the center lane on either side, you should always choose the left, out of habit if for no other reason (such as that people are more likley watching for a car passing to their left). Those who consider right side passing just as suitable demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the organizing principle... If generalized to a substantial fraction of drivers, such ignorance destroys the organization and prompts faster drivers to unsafely weave through traffic.

At times I've wondered if there would be a way to use toll transponders to put say a 5 cent charge on lane changes... and a very high tax on changing into lanes that are about to close.

[Sasashay]

Most people don't try to cut off or crash into others on purpose. There's one couple where I go dance, who is continually crashing or cutting off others. They compete, and the lead is so into the routine that he doesn't watch who's around him. Their routines take a lot of floor space and involve many turns, spins, side by side movements where he throws the follower out, etc. Yes, many people are annoyed when this couple is dancing, but what can we do. We just learn to watch out for them and try to avoid them as much as we can :roll:

[etchuck]

Most people don't try to cut off or crash into others on purpose. There's one couple where I go dance, who is continually crashing or cutting off others. They compete, and the lead is so into the routine that he doesn't watch who's around him. Their routines take a lot of floor space and involve many turns, spins, side by side movements where he throws the follower out, etc. Yes, many people are annoyed when this couple is dancing, but what can we do. We just learn to watch out for them and try to avoid them as much as we can :roll:

I suggest giving him a bib that he wears on his back saying...

Follower On Board .

[Chris Stratton]

I suggest giving him a bib that he wears on his back saying...

Follower On Board .

Or a yellow sign saying "How's my floorcraft? Call (coach's phone number)"

[Warren J. Dew]

There's one couple where I go dance, who is continually crashing or cutting off others. They compete, and the lead is so into the routine that he doesn't watch who's around him.
Competitors locked into a routine are a little different. Normally, you won't feel like they are "cutting you off", because their floorcraft isn't good enough to find the empty space on the floor that you were heading for. Instead, they crash straight into you - definitely not good.

[twnkltoz]

There's one guy at our dances that's all over the place. His claim to fame is that he's spent like $10,000 at AM. He's a little goofy and likes to goof around a lot while dancing. It's kind of fun, because as a follower you get to just mess around and spin a lot, and he doesn't mind if you don't follow what he led. However, he's so busy messing around that he tends to get in people's way a lot and it gets annoying. However, he's really good about dancing with ALL the women, which is nice. Anyway, he's not intentionally getting in your way (well, sometimes, but only if he knows you and he grins at you as he does it), just kind of obtuse.

[Chris Stratton]

obtuse.

Ballroom dancers? "Obtuse"??? Where would you get a silly idea like that?

[twnkltoz]

Just because I spend all my time seeing how I look in the mirror, doesn't make me obtuse!

LOL a friend at the studio made a video called "social dancing 101," demonstrating all the bad habits that people have and what not to do. Very funny.

[Elizabeth]

Most people don't try to cut off or crash into others on purpose. There's one couple where I go dance, who is continually crashing or cutting off others. They compete, and the lead is so into the routine that he doesn't watch who's around him. Their routines take a lot of floor space and involve many turns, spins, side by side movements where he throws the follower out, etc. Yes, many people are annoyed when this couple is dancing, but what can we do. We just learn to watch out for them and try to avoid them as much as we can :roll:

That does happen too. Fortunately I haven't seen a lot of that at dances here lately, but it happens in competition all the time.

More serious suggestions of what you can do:

* Complain about them to the people running the dance. Studio owners want people to have fun at their parties. If one couple is causing a problem its in their interest to speak to the couple in question.
* Unless they outweight you by a great deal, you might consider not giving way a few times. It might be worth a few bumps and bruises to teach the guy to share the floor. Use your best judgement on this one. You should certainly avoid couples who are at least making an attempt to use floorcraft, but you should not have to do all the work.
* If you're a lady, invest in metallic hair ornaments. I use them in competition and it has cut down on the number of times I've been hit in the head.

[DancePoet]

I loved the ideas about "Follower on Board" and "How's My Floorcraft? Call Coach at ... "!

I'm still very much a beginner. At socials I do tend to move with a long stride covering a good deal of floor space when I'm with someone who gets it. Otherwise, I tend to stay closer to the middle to let more expereienced dancers use the outside. However, there always seems to be a wide range of skills in either area. Some folks just don't seem to get it, and I even sometimes feel like I'm in a couple's way.

I haven't found anyone to be purposely cutting me and my partners off. Usually it is more like they just aren't watching out for themselves nor us.

[DancingMommy]

There's one guy at our dances that's all over the place. His claim to fame is that he's spent like $10,000 at AM. He's a little goofy and likes to goof around a lot while dancing. It's kind of fun, because as a follower you get to just mess around and spin a lot, and he doesn't mind if you don't follow what he led. However, he's so busy messing around that he tends to get in people's way a lot and it gets annoying. However, he's really good about dancing with ALL the women, which is nice. Anyway, he's not intentionally getting in your way (well, sometimes, but only if he knows you and he grins at you as he does it), just kind of obtuse.

I think I know this guy, lol!

[DancingMommy]

To all...

I know DanceMentor from way back, and I can vouch for his leading abilities. ;-) He's VERY accomplished as a dancer. He's definitely no newb.

From what I can understand, the question was not necessarily how to avoid collision, but rather whether a "rival" couple were trying to cause an incident.

In fact, knowing what I know, I'd be inclined to say that perhaps there *is* something amiss. I can't tell for certain though since I haven't enquired as to the *gory* details. ;)

Hey DM -

PM me with the details and I'll give you my psychic friends interpretation, lol! 8)

[Chris Stratton]

Maybe we're missing a difference between the large difficulty of chasing down another couple for the purpose of obstructing them, vs. using an opportunity to interfere if one handily presents itself. It's certainly possible to do the later UNintentionally. When I was just starting to have dynamic control over how I chose to respond to unexpected obstructions, I know I managed to do this to higher level dancers on numerous occasions, because the dodge that is logical to a bronze dancer is not necessarily the one that an open dancer would expect you to pull in response to a common obstruction.

[DanceMentor]

To all...

I know DanceMentor from way back, and I can vouch for his leading abilities. ;-) He's VERY accomplished as a dancer. He's definitely no newb.

From what I can understand, the question was not necessarily how to avoid collision, but rather whether a "rival" couple were trying to cause an incident.

In fact, knowing what I know, I'd be inclined to say that perhaps there *is* something amiss. I can't tell for certain though since I haven't enquired as to the *gory* details. ;)

Hey DM -

PM me with the details and I'll give you my psychic friends interpretation, lol! 8)

Wow! thanks for the compliment! :D You are one of the few people here on DF that has even seen me dance (and knew it was me).

Yes, the other night this couple kept getting right in front of us as we were starting to move forward. Then in the Viennese Waltz, we literally had to stop in our tracks, or we would have creamed his partner. The track they took seemed obvious they were trying to cut us off.

I'm usually pretty good at making quick changes, and we almost never collide with anyone, and if we do, it is a light brushing.

I actually felt like the leader felt like we were invading his territory, and he was trying to make us feel uncomfortable. I am willing to admit that I might need to consult your psychic hotline to be absolutely sure, but usually I can trust my gut feeling.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, the other night this couple kept getting right in front of us as we were starting to move forward. Then in the Viennese Waltz, we literally had to stop in our tracks, or we would have creamed his partner. The track they took seemed obvious they were trying to cut us off.

How'd he manage to cut you off in VW? Hesitations or American style lines in the LOD? That would get you run over 4 or 5 times in succession around here - I suggest you TELL him that if he wants to do that he should first divert well into the center or a corner and leave a racetrack pattern clear for those who wish to do the travelling basics.

[jon]

I'm aware that the highway culture in California is rather different, though. Dance floorcraft cultures could also vary, I suppose.

I have promised myself never to drive in Boston again. Most impolite and needlessly aggressive drivers I've ever experienced (granted, I have not driven in 3rd-world cities, or Italy).

If someone behaves on a dance floor like Boston drivers do on the roads, they should not be surprised when people get in their face about it. I eventually got fed up enough with the last jerk who behaved like that to start blocking him every time he tried his patented "zip by inches away forcing the other couple to abort" manuevers, and he finally got the message and left us alone. Fortunately those types are rare in California, at least.

[robin]

> I eventually got fed up enough with the last jerk who behaved like that to start blocking him
> every time he tried his patented "zip by inches away forcing the other couple to abort"
> manuevers, and he finally got the message and left us alone.

So how do you define who has the right of way on the dance-floor then?

Presumably if they zipped by inches away, forcing you to abort, it means you were both on trajectories that aimed at the same space, except this guy was there marginally earlier. How do you know it was him rather than you that should have backed down?

Crashing is a very different matter, there's not excuse for crashing into anyone at a social dance, other than maybe a little bump when you were trying to avoid someone else... things happen... but I'm really not sure what people mean by "cutting someone off".

[tsb]

I'm aware that the highway culture in California is rather different, though. Dance floorcraft cultures could also vary, I suppose.

people do maneuvers such as the guillotine, etc. out here, we just don't refer to them using that terminology!

it's been my experience that people who are clueless on the dance floor are equally clueless with their cars. my favorite example is a guy who as a habit does hesitations on the far outside of LOD without regard to who is behind him. one night we were both parking our cars and he parked in a way that took up the last two spaces on the street in front of the studio & i ended parking a block away.

say what you will about the reputation the french have for rudeness, but i wish everyone adopted their highway driving habits - staying to the right as much as physically possible and moving left only to pass and then moving back right ASAP. i recall once driving from paris to avignon when my travelling companion kept ignoring my suggestions to move from the middle lane to the right lane until 4-5 cars approaching behind us on our right passed on the left and shot back over to the right lane, drivers sneering at us as only the french can...

[mamboqueen]

I was wondering when somoene was going to bring up the Boston driving scene! It's awful. I have found driving in midtown Manhattan less stressful. It's scarier on the roads here than any dance floor I've ever encountered!

[Joe]

Competitors just naturally go for any open space, and if they happen to get there before you, it may seem like they "cut you off" on purpose - but it's much more likely that they just wanted to get to the nice open space where they could dance out.

I am grateful that professional race car drivers do not behave similarly in their highway driving.

In situations where the traffic does not self-segragate to maintain a speed gradient across the lanes, many impatient drivers end up doing precisely that. You really realize the lack of good habits when while driving alone in the middle of a three-lane road an overtaking car chooses to pass you in the slow lane...
In this case, the lack of good habits would be on YOUR part, assuming you mean 3 lanes in each direction, which is not the same as a 3-lane road (which is 2 lanes in each direction with a center turn lane).

If there is even the slightest possibility for you to be passed on the right (or on the left in most Commonwealth countries), you are in the wrong lane. You should be in the lane to your right.

[Chris Stratton]

If there is even the slightest possibility for you to be passed on the right (or on the left in most Commonwealth countries), you are in the wrong lane. You should be in the lane to your right.

In practice, if you are cruising in the rightmost lane in an area with many highway entrances, you will have to frequently adjust speed and make lane changes to accomodate entering traffic. That's why the middle lane is the best place for cruising at a reasonable speed - those who must go faster have the left lane to pass you in (which would be why it's called the "passing lane"), while very slow and entering/exiting traffic has the right lane.

This view is fairly explicitly supported by the MA driver's manual ("treat the far right lane as a slower-speed through lane, the middle lane as a faster through lane, and the far left lane as the passing lane.") and does not conflict with the recommendations of the CA one.

If someone has the choice of passing you on the right or left and chooses the right - well, it's not your fault they are an idiot.

[twnkltoz]

> I eventually got fed up enough with the last jerk who behaved like that to start blocking him
> every time he tried his patented "zip by inches away forcing the other couple to abort"
> manuevers, and he finally got the message and left us alone.

So how do you define who has the right of way on the dance-floor then?

Presumably if they zipped by inches away, forcing you to abort, it means you were both on trajectories that aimed at the same space, except this guy was there marginally earlier. How do you know it was him rather than you that should have backed down?

Crashing is a very different matter, there's not excuse for crashing into anyone at a social dance, other than maybe a little bump when you were trying to avoid someone else... things happen... but I'm really not sure what people mean by "cutting someone off".

The couple who is behind can see ahead of them (as opposed to the couple in front, who can't see behind them as well), so the onus is more on them. If you see that a couple is headed for a space, it's extremely rude to dart in and zip by them, cutting them off. Might does not make right...just because you got there first doesn't mean you should have when you can see they were headed there and you have an alternative.

[Warren J. Dew]

Presumably if they zipped by inches away, forcing you to abort, it means you were both on trajectories that aimed at the same space, except this guy was there marginally earlier. How do you know it was him rather than you that should have backed down?
There can be two situations here. If in fact he was marginally earlier, you're right, he has the right of way; someone has to adjust, and since I got there second, that someone is me.

On the other hand, it's possible that I could have gotten there first, but I was unsure that he would then avoid crashing into me, so I yielded to avoid a possible accident, even though I wouldn't have been at fault in the accident. In this case, he's the one being unreasonable, and I'm doing defensive driving. That's still the right thing to do, especially at a social dance - let him learn about his bad floorcraft from crashing into other people.
This view is fairly explicitly supported by the MA driver's manual ("treat the far right lane as a slower-speed through lane, the middle lane as a faster through lane, and the far left lane as the passing lane.")
It seems to me that if you're passed on the right, you're automatically doing something wrong, because you're being slower speed traffic but travelling in the faster speed middle lane. If you were faster speed traffic appropriate for the middle lane, you wouldn't be being passed.

Yes, it's slightly inconvenient for you to do the right thing and travel in the right lane, adjusting as needed for entrances and exits. Then again, it might be slightly inconvenient for him to do the right thing, too (that French sneer is particularly difficult to pull off). As in floorcraft, if you want to do the right thing, you have to accept a few inconveniences sometimes.

[Chris Stratton]

This view is fairly explicitly supported by the MA driver's manual ("treat the far right lane as a slower-speed through lane, the middle lane as a faster through lane, and the far left lane as the passing lane.")
It seems to me that if you're passed on the right, you're automatically doing something wrong, because you're being slower speed traffic but travelling in the faster speed middle lane. If you were faster speed traffic appropriate for the middle lane, you wouldn't be being passed.

Yes, it's slightly inconvenient for you to do the right thing and travel in the right lane, adjusting as needed for entrances and exits. Then again, it might be slightly inconvenient for him to do the right thing, too (that French sneer is particularly difficult to pull off). As in floorcraft, if you want to do the right thing, you have to accept a few inconveniences sometimes.

We still seem to be miscommunicating. The situation I particularly object to is when a car comes up behind you in the middle lane, and chooses to go past you in the empty right lane rather than the empty left lane. That simply demonstrates that they have no clue how the road is supposed to work. Why is the left lane officially called the passing lane if you aren't supposed to preferentially use it to pass?

Further, I suggest you try driving in the right lane of 128 and the Mass Pike some at rush hour... it's very unnerving with all of the traffic forcing it's way on. You pretty much have to change out of the right lane as quickly as you can if you wish to move at the speed of the traffic without constant lane changes. Or try going from 128S to 93S at Woburn - it's vital that you get out of the right lane in the short distance before the second on-ramp enters if you want to avoid a very hair-raising experience.

[mamboqueen]

Or try going from 128S to 93S at Woburn - it's vital that you get out of the right lane in the short distance before the local Woburn on-ramp if you want to avoid a very hair-raising experience

I'm starting to have an anxiety attack at my desk just reading this. Please...someone....start a traffic thread!

[Warren J. Dew]

If you see that a couple is headed for a space, it's extremely rude to dart in and zip by them, cutting them off.
You're expecting a lot from us leaders! I have my brain full seeing where I'm headed myself, there's no way I can see where everyone else is headed as well.

[twnkltoz]

If you see that a couple is headed for a space, it's extremely rude to dart in and zip by them, cutting them off.
You're expecting a lot from us leaders! I have my brain full seeing where I'm headed myself, there's no way I can see where everyone else is headed as well.

Well, I don't expect you to be psychic, but you can generally tell when a couple in front of you is headed for the same space you are...just like you can tell when you're about to hit someone. I lead socially...probably once per dance night. I never crash or cut people off.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Well, I don't expect you to be psychic, but you can generally tell when a couple in front of you is headed for the same space you are...just like you can tell when you're about to hit someone. I lead socially...probably once per dance night. I never crash or cut people off.

This can be pretty difficult, too, because just like people that drive with their blinkers on and never make that lane change, there are dancers that give false leads. Beginners and social dancers tend to be very vertical when they dance, so you can't rely on their bodies to tell which direction they may go next. A lot of time, eye contact seems to be the best way to avoid contact. Also, leaving your ego in the shoe bag, and if there is a crash, a smile and an apology should keep the mood light.

[Elizabeth]

Further, I suggest you try driving in the right lane of 128 and the Mass Pike some at rush hour... it's very unnerving with all of the traffic forcing it's way on. You pretty much have to change out of the right lane as quickly as you can if you wish to move at the speed of the traffic without constant lane changes.

I regulary drive on 128 in the right lane during rush hour, and IME staying the the right lane is not a terrible hardship. Some people are bad at merging, and that's annoying, but not too terrible to deal with.

While traffic analogies are good to a point, it needs to be said that there are differences between driving and floorcraft. Defensive driving is a lot more necessary with a car. In a floorcraft situation when you're talking about couple's whose combined weight is probably less than 300 pounds and who are only traveling at about 4 miles an hour you can let the person who isn't observing the rules learn by crashing into you; a nasty bruise is probably the worst you're going to get. When you're in a 2000 pound car travelling at 60 miles an hour and the other guy has an SUV this really isn't an option. Also, leading takes up a lot more brain capacity than operating a car, so you have more to spend on defensive driving than you do floorcraft. My VW always does exactly what I tell it to without me thinking much about it at all. I defy you to find a leader who will say the same thing about his follower with a straight face.

[tsb]

My VW always does exactly what I tell it to without me thinking much about it at all. I defy you to find a leader who will say the same thing about his follower with a straight face.

ROTFL!

the average boston driver wouldn't last 30 seconds driving in downtown taipei. it's accepted that if you leave more than about 18 inches between you & the car in front of you it's ok to someone to edge the bumper of their car in and it's expected that you let them in. then you have the little motor scooters weaving in and out on top of that... kinda like the floor of sportsmens lodge (alas, no more) on salsa nights... (just to steer - no pun intended - the topic back to dancing)

[Joe]

This view is fairly explicitly supported by the MA driver's manual ("treat the far right lane as a slower-speed through lane, the middle lane as a faster through lane, and the far left lane as the passing lane.")
It seems to me that if you're passed on the right, you're automatically doing something wrong, because you're being slower speed traffic but travelling in the faster speed middle lane. If you were faster speed traffic appropriate for the middle lane, you wouldn't be being passed.

Yes, it's slightly inconvenient for you to do the right thing and travel in the right lane, adjusting as needed for entrances and exits. Then again, it might be slightly inconvenient for him to do the right thing, too (that French sneer is particularly difficult to pull off). As in floorcraft, if you want to do the right thing, you have to accept a few inconveniences sometimes.

We still seem to be miscommunicating. The situation I particularly object to is when a car comes up behind you in the middle lane, and chooses to go past you in the empty right lane rather than the empty left lane. That simply demonstrates that they have no clue how the road is supposed to work. Why is the left lane officially called the passing lane if you aren't supposed to preferentially use it to pass?
There's no miscommunication. Warren is simply confirming my posit that if you're able to be passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. If, as you claim, the right lane is for slow traffic and the middle lane for faster traffic, then if you can be passed on the right you're really not faster traffic. You're slow traffic. If you were faster traffic, you'd be passing someone who's in the right lane and there wouldn't be any room for anyone to pass you on the right.

[mamboqueen]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Half the time, when I'm in the middle lane, doing 65 in a 55, some yahoo is zipping in and out of cars because NO one is going fast enough for him, and passing on the right is just something they do regardless of where they *should* be, or how they should be *properly* passing. I also rarely drive in the right lane because people who are coming on to the highway and are supposed to be merging or yielding, are coming on without doing either.

[Chris Stratton]

Glad to find someone agrees.

Since I was first licensed in Connecticut, I looked up what their driver's manual says - it's even a bit more specific than the MA one:

On a road with two or more lanes traveling in the same
direction, stay in the right lane except to pass. On a road
with three or more lanes traveling in the same direction,
if there is a lot of entering or exiting traffic, use the center
travel lane. Unless told to do so by officials, never drive
on the shoulder of the road.
Passing. On multi-lane roads, the left-most lane is
intended to be used for passing slower vehicles. If you
pass on the right, the other driver may have difficulty seeing
you and might suddenly change lanes in front of you.


I still think there was actually a test question showing a road with 3 lanes in the same direction and asking which would have the smoothest traffic flow, but I can't seem to find proof of this.

[DancingMommy]

Unless, of course, you live in Flori-duh where there is no such thing as a slow lane. The only rule here is to not pass on the right.

[mamboqueen]

I just get the sense that if there is a rule book in Massachusetts, people read it once when they HAD to and have long since forgotten everything in it. The best example of that is what people do in rotaries. There are more rear-end collissions at the (rotary) exit I get off at than I've seen collectively everywhere else in my lifetime (and I, myself have been rear-ended 4 times!) Why they don't just get rid of them is beyond me....but rules just don't seem to apply here. Maybe that's a generalization, but I lived in NJ, which was no fun place to drive either, and find it much worse here.

[mamboqueen]

Dancing Mommy,

I'm laughing at your comment. Lots of blue hair in Florida....probably not as many high-speed accidents, I imagine! At least the roads are probably in better shape. The weather really takes its toll (causing a whole 'nother series of driving hazards here) on our roads.

I actually drove on the Autobahn a couple of times and felt safer.

[Chris Stratton]

I just get the sense that if there is a rule book in Massachusetts, people read it once when they HAD to and have long since forgotten everything in it.

Probably true in part everywhere - however the high-tech parts of MA may also have a lot of people transplanted from elsewhere in the nation and world. That may mean a lot of people are facing situations they never considered in their "book learning" youth introduction to driving somehwere else (if they ever head such an introduction).

[mamboqueen]

Hey, when in Rome....

[DancingMommy]

Actually, Florida is overrun with those d@mnyankees who don't KNOW we don't have a "fast lane/slow lane" who insist on beeping thier horn at you when you ARE in the rightmost lane and going the <gasp> speed limit. :twisted:

I have I have one more person with a d@mnyankee license plate (read anything north of FL - roflmao) beep their horn at me for going the speed limit, road rage will have a NEW definition. :roll:

WARNING!!! DO not beep at the lady in the RED PT CRUISER!!! You will be mighty sorry. :twisted:

[tsb]

I just get the sense that if there is a rule book in Massachusetts, people read it once when they HAD to and have long since forgotten everything in it. The best example of that is what people do in rotaries. There are more rear-end collissions at the (rotary) exit I get off at than I've seen collectively everywhere else in my lifetime (and I, myself have been rear-ended 4 times!) Why they don't just get rid of them is beyond me....but rules just don't seem to apply here. Maybe that's a generalization, but I lived in NJ, which was no fun place to drive either, and find it much worse here.

what do you mean by rotary exit? i'm envisioning four (or more) roads intersecting like spokes of a wheel into a central circular hub so that if you want to make a left turn you hve to traverse 3/4's of the circle. i first saw them (again) in france & i thought "this is better than having to stop". the challenge is getting everybody on the same page in understanding that they need to cooperate with others to make it work. that's why i think they won't work in the U.S. the same drivers that won't stay to the right as much as possible (and blocking faster moving traffic) is not going to want to have to cooperate with other drivers at a rotary exit like that.

[Chris Stratton]

the same drivers that won't stay to the right as much as possible (and blocking faster moving traffic) is not going to want to have to cooperate with other drivers at a rotary exit like that.

Actually, MA drivers in general seem far better about understanding that the traffic in the rotaty has the right of way then they are at understanding that the extreme left lane is the primary solution for passing ahead of the normal traffic flow.

Perhaps it's because there's no disagreement that people should be allowed to transit a rotary to the exit of their choice, while there's some question as to what responsability a normal driver has to enable someone else to go 90 mph.

[jon]

I have I have one more person with a d@mnyankee license plate (read anything north of FL - roflmao) beep their horn at me for going the speed limit, road rage will have a NEW definition. :roll:

Contrast to Atlanta, where you get beeped at for only going 75 in the rightmost of the 7 lanes in their ring road.

[mamboqueen]

My experience on rotaries has been that about 75% of the time, people coming on to the rotary just barrel right on without yielding to the traffic in the rotary. The second problem is that someone will invariably rear-end another car who is pausing to enter the rotary. I can't count the number of times, I've seen this. In fact, when I am slowing down to check out the traffic in the rotary, I usually take a quick peak in my rear view mirror to make sure someone isn't going to smack into me.

[Chris Stratton]

In fact, when I am slowing down to check out the traffic in the rotary, I usually take a quick peak in my rear view mirror to make sure someone isn't going to smack into me.

If you can't see to evaluate the traffic in the rotaty long in advance, I think it makes sense to start to slow down earlier and more gradually as you approach it. There's much less likelihood of being rear-ended if you don't stop abruptly at the entrance, or adjust your speed so you don't actually have to stop at all in order to wait for a break - and if the rotary turns out to be empty you can always accelerate into it.

[DancingMommy]

Having driven in Atlanta for MANY years and logging over 50 miles each way to work on said "ring road" (aka 285), I can tell you that Atlanta drivers are WAY better than FLA drivers.

If you know the rules (drive FAST) then it's no problem. And FWIW, I've never heard anyone beep their horn in the ATL unless they were a d@mnyankee.

[mamboqueen]

Boy, Yankees just can't win! Funny...my "Yankee" cousin married a nice young Georgia girl. I wonder how their driving is. I actually drove in North Carolina and was incredibly impressed in how calm and polite the drivers were (well, the people were generally calm and polite, too; not like us Type-A, overworked, stressed-out horn beeping Yankees!).

But, I think you were onto something, DM, and that is that a multitude of Floridians were once New Yorkers!

[DancingMommy]

I'm just kidding about the d"@mnyankees" thing, actually. that's why it's all one word. My dad is from Queens and my mom is from Knoxville... You could say we have the best of both cultures, lol!

[Warren J. Dew]

Since I was first licensed in Connecticut, I looked up what their driver's manual says - it's even a bit more specific than the MA one

That's not more specific - it's just different. The Massachusetts rules are written to put more of the onus on slow people to stay right - making the right lane a "through lane" instead of a entry/exit lane as in Connecticut - because drivers in Massachusetts are expected to know how to drive fast, apparently unlike those slowpokes in Connecticut. If it weren't for all those nonyankees clogging up our roads, 90 mph would be slow....

As for the shoulders, Massachusetts has signs that say things like, "Travel on shoulder prohibited except between the hours of 4 am and 11 pm".

Unless, of course, you live in Flori-duh where there is no such thing as a slow lane.
Every lane is a slow lane in Florida!

(At least on the gulf coast where my grandparents lived....)

There are more rear-end collissions at the (rotary) exit I get off at than I've seen collectively everywhere else in my lifetime (and I, myself have been rear-ended 4 times!)
Come to think of it, the line of dance is kind of like a rotary ... hopefully after this discussion, people can feel better about only being cut off rather than crashed into!

[tsb]

the same drivers that won't stay to the right as much as possible (and blocking faster moving traffic) is not going to want to have to cooperate with other drivers at a rotary exit like that.

Actually, MA drivers in general seem far better about understanding that the traffic in the rotaty has the right of way then they are at understanding that the extreme left lane is the primary solution for passing ahead of the normal traffic flow.

Perhaps it's because there's no disagreement that people should be allowed to transit a rotary to the exit of their choice, while there's some question as to what responsability a normal driver has to enable someone else to go 90 mph.

having driven in europe, "normal" drivers can be driving 90-100 mph (or 150-160 kph) safely. this is the natural extension of having slow & fast lanes. (of course this also presupposes that roads will support traffic at these speeds, which isn't necessarily the case in the US, especially if you tried the pasadena freeway with its 10' long exit lanes...) everyone driving 55-65 negates the concept - people figuring "i'm driving the max limit so i can be in the far left lane since no one by definition can be faster than me" actually have some justification.

[Chris Stratton]

people figuring "i'm driving the max limit so i can be in the far left lane since no one by definition can be faster than me" actually have some justification.

I'd be the first to agree that having a large difference between the law and common practice does not help create a smoothly functioning system.

The worst part are precautionary speed reductions in construction areas - especially when there is clearly no work going on, these are widely ignored. But the potential fines are large enough that some people do marginally observe them, creating unsafely large differences in speed. ("Other people were going faster" is not to my knowledge a reliable argument for getting a ticket dismissed)

[mamboqueen]

hopefully after this discussion, people can feel better about only being cut off rather than crashed into!


Indeed....I feel safer on the dance floor! Although I have to go through *that* rotary this evening and my blood pressure is starting to rise a bit.

Breathe....breathe deep....okay, I'm past it!

[tsb]

people figuring "i'm driving the max limit so i can be in the far left lane since no one by definition can be faster than me" actually have some justification.

I'd be the first to agree that having a large difference between the law and common practice does not help create a smoothly functioning system.

The worst part are precautionary speed reductions in construction areas - especially when there is clearly no work going on, these are widely ignored. But the potential fines are large enough that some people do marginally observe them, creating unsafely large differences in speed. ("Other people were going faster" is not to my knowledge a reliable argument for getting a ticket dismissed)

once you get the ticket, probably not, but IF you can get the LEO (sorry, law enforcement officer) to concede that other cars were going faster & he elected not to cite them your chances are greatly improved (as anything even remotely suggesting profiling or discrimination is to be avoided out here). also, there is the concept of keeping with the flow of traffic" which works more at the level of the LEO & his/her discretion. also, out here there is an actual benefit to keeping to the right as much as possible: LEO's are also less likely (90%) to give you a speeding ticket if you are NOT in the far left lane (at least out here). a couple of months back i was on my way home (from a dance) around midnight & i was cruising home but staying as far right as possible in the middle of 5 lanes (with no other traffic to my left) and the CHP (cal. highway patrol) just gave me a 'slow down' on the loud speaker as he went by & i saw i was doing about 80mph...

[Chris Stratton]

once you get the ticket, probably not, but IF you can get the LEO (sorry, law enforcement officer) to concede that other cars were going faster & he elected not to cite them your chances are greatly improved (as anything even remotely suggesting profiling or discrimination is to be avoided out here). also, there is the concept of keeping with the flow of traffic" which works more at the level of the LEO & his/her discretion.

It occurs to me though, that if they actually decided they wanted to reduce the speed of traffic to a posted speed limit, then some system of provably-random selection of cars that were speeding, but NOT the fastest on the road at the time could do a lot to destroy the sense of security people have in violating a law just because everyone else is too.

But were something like this to be actually attempted, the necessary preliminary stage would be a cost-benefit analysis to determine an enfocreable speed limit.

[tsb]

once you get the ticket, probably not, but IF you can get the LEO (sorry, law enforcement officer) to concede that other cars were going faster & he elected not to cite them your chances are greatly improved (as anything even remotely suggesting profiling or discrimination is to be avoided out here). also, there is the concept of keeping with the flow of traffic" which works more at the level of the LEO & his/her discretion.

It occurs to me though, that if they actually decided they wanted to reduce the speed of traffic to a posted speed limit, then some system of provably-random selection of cars that were speeding, but NOT the fastest on the road at the time could do a lot to destroy the sense of security people have in violating a law just because everyone else is too.

But were something like this to be actually attempted, the necessary preliminary stage would be a cost-benefit analysis to determine an enfocreable speed limit.

at least for the CHP's out here, one of their stated functions is merely to be seen so as to act as a visual deterrent because the theoretical issue is driver safety (yes, i'm old enough to remember the national speed limit coming down to 55 because of energy concerns. bah!) & not necessarily citations & revenue. of course everybody knows of at least one speed trap where a municipality garners a decent amount of revenue through citations.

i suspect that transportation concepts that work in europe & other places won't work in the us (especially in s. cal.) for various factors: things more spread out, greater distances travelled, less likely to carpool, leading to fewer people per car contributing to greater traffic density, the cultural temperment, poor mass transit system, etc.

[Joe]

All I can say is that when the right lane is the only lane I can do 80 going up and down I-95, something is wrong.

[chocolatchica]

Believe me I have definately met people like that. Especiall among the younger competitors. You get them all in one room and oh my goodness look out! They can get pretty vicious to each other. I've seen girls "accidentaly" kick or knock over another competitor. I try to watch out for that kind of stuff. I'd rather not get trampled Lol :-)

[tangotime]

Interesting observations, I think the operative word here is "floorcraft " or the lack thereof. many yrs ago inthe u.k. practice nites were regularly held, one for latin one for standard,As time wore on, the competitive couples began to drive out the " social" dancers, to the point were many schools forbade any form of comp. dancer during these sessions .Someone made a comment about a pro, event, there is a classic case from a comp. of many yrs back, when the competitors were gathered and given a warning no less about the floor " agression . The main reason one sees this problem in comps, is primarily due to some couples who are unable to change their sequences in a split second , thus taking them out of their planned flight path( floor craft ) . So, I think to expect that level of awareness in a social studio setting may be asking a little too much . ( even from many of the teachers !! )