Dancing the other part socially (as a hetero)

[NWesterner]

In the course of teaching (mostly waltz and fox trot), my wife and I often step into the rotation, in whichever role is required. Sometimes it's just to help with a bad balance, but more often our goal is to lead or backlead a student long enough to give him or her the feel for a move, or to become more aware of a bad habit. We also actively encourage students to take at least basic classes in the other role, as a way of improving their ability with their own role. In the course of all this, we have both come to enjoy and appreciate dancing the other role, and not just for edification: my wife enjoys the strategic/intellectual challenge of leading, and I absolutely adore waltzing with a stong, assured lead (to take an obvious instance).

That's in a class setting, of course. Socially, at the dances I attend it's reasonably common and widely accepted for a woman to lead another woman, but much less common and less socially accepted for a man to follow another man. We do have a few homosexual couples, of both genders (tho' mostly women), but I'm talking about us plain old hets. I'm curious what it's like out there in other dance circles. What goes on in this regard in your dance world? How much tolerance do you and your fellow dancers have for "cross-dancers" at your events?

[Chris Stratton]

It seems reasonably accepted here in the northeast for two men to occasionally dance together at a social. Every time I've seen it or participated it's been between guys who knew each other (teammates, practice in same studio, whatever) rather than walking up to a stranger and asking them to dance.

[NWesterner]

Yes, I would not have the nerve to ask a guy I didn't know to dance :shock: .

[Pacion]

Hi NWesterner and a belated welcome to DF!

My 'poison' :lol: is salsa. I have noticed a trend over the years for more and more guys to dance together, sometimes to what appears to the exclusion of dancing with a female :shock: I think they usually know each other or, if it is a 'famous' teacher, they will ask him especially if they have just seen him dancing the follow.

It can be quite amusing and entertaining watching them dance together, especially where the guy following is a brilliant dancer.

As to their sexuality? I haven't got a clue for most of them. I have to confess that it is not one of the discussions I have with them :wink:

Personally, I think it helps the guys to dance with one of the 'best' leads. They then pickup tips on how to lead/not lead us women :banana:

(The only time my nose gets pushed out of joint, is where there is clearly a shortfall in men at the venue and two or four guys are dancing with each other pretty much exclusively. :evil: Women, IMO, don't tend to do that so why do the men do it :? )

[jon]

Male-male social dancing is less common than female-female in the WCS world, but neither one causes much controversy.

[cocodrilo]

In the non-salsa latin dance scene(meaning latinos who don't go to any dance classes, yet still like to dance), you NEVER see two guys dancing! I have however seen two salsa instructors joking around and dancing together, but this was at our private parties, in front of their Japanese students. I don't think they would be caught dead doing this at any other venue.

[Pacion]

I have however seen two salsa instructors joking around and dancing together, but this was at our private parties, in front of their Japanese students. I don't think they would be caught dead doing this at any other venue.

Interesting. I have seen LA and London based male teachers and students doing this at clubs/events - salsa ones of course (non salsa events are not on my radar :wink: ) - definitely here in London and I have a vague recollection of LA.

[etchuck]

The only time I've done this or had this done to me (another gentleman asking me to dance) is solely in contra dancing, where (at least over here) gender roles are not required to dance. It takes some getting used to, coming from the gender-roled-dancing world, but it is not as hard as you might think.

Honestly, I didn't mind it, and I had a great time dancing.

[cocodrilo]

I have however seen two salsa instructors joking around and dancing together, but this was at our private parties, in front of their Japanese students. I don't think they would be caught dead doing this at any other venue.

Interesting. I have seen LA and London based male teachers and students doing this at clubs/events - salsa ones of course (non salsa events are not on my radar :wink: ) - definitely here in London and I have a vague recollection of LA.
Were those teachers Latinos?

[Anonymous]

So ah.. hmm. How do I ask this..
Um.. what do you think of.. girl/girl couples? Are you lot "down" with that? As in, it's one thing to say "Yeah, I don't mind, that's cool", but I've noticed when I- er, um.. when someone.. actually SAYS they're of a Sapphic persuasion.. um, well, friends unfriend.. you know..

So.. what are y'all's standpoint on that?.. :oops:

andifyoudontlikethatforgetisaidanythinganythingata ltralalalovethosemenwoohooyippie.

[cocodrilo]

So ah.. hmm. How do I ask this..
Um.. what do you think of.. girl/girl couples? Are you lot "down" with that? As in, it's one thing to say "Yeah, I don't mind, that's cool", but I've noticed when I- er, um.. when someone.. actually SAYS they're of a Sapphic persuasion.. um, well, friends unfriend.. you know..

So.. what are y'all's standpoint on that?.. :oops:

andifyoudontlikethatforgetisaidanythinganythingata ltralalalovethosemenwoohooyippie.
In the salsa scene here, there is like one man for every 10 women(sometimes fewer) and it is quite common for girls todance with girls. I want to learn to lead so I can dance with girls, too!(one reason is that I usually tower over the guys in this country and I have a natural tendency to lead anyhow... :cry: )

I have danced with some female leads and they are precise while being gentle- really fun to dacne with! When I asked them how they became such good leads, they said that at their salsa classes there was like ONE guy so SOMEONE had to lead!

[Sagitta]

Hmm. Move to Japan, pronto. :car:

I never mind doing the follow part, but it just isn't done.

[swinginstyle]

There are a few cross dancers in lindy, blues, and west coast that I have seen. The people I know are all hetero. In my opinion, it's good to dance the other role, b/c it helps to know what I need to provide to the follow as a lead. Instead of walking a mile in their footsteps, I'll just dance a song.

[MacMoto]

Men dancing as a follow is a very rare occurrence where I am (salsa in Scotland), but it may be more to do with the demography of my scene (we are always short of men) than what people think about it.

I have seen two men dance together in a social setting, by in all these cases they were male teachers doing it as a bit of a joke. I have also seen (though not in Scotland) male-female couples doing a role reversal, where they are either partners or good friends. Looked like fun...

So ah.. hmm. How do I ask this..
Um.. what do you think of.. girl/girl couples? Are you lot "down" with that? As in, it's one thing to say "Yeah, I don't mind, that's cool", but I've noticed when I- er, um.. when someone.. actually SAYS they're of a Sapphic persuasion.. um, well, friends unfriend.. you know..

So.. what are y'all's standpoint on that?.. :oops:

andifyoudontlikethatforgetisaidanythinganythingata ltralalalovethosemenwoohooyippie.
Like Cocodrilo, I have danced with some superb female leads -- some of the smoothest leads I have danced with are girls, and I really enjoyed dancing with them.

As for the question of sexual orientation, I don't see any difference between dancing with a heterosexual man and dancing with a homosexual woman, and why should I? It's just a dance, and if the other party has something more on their mind -- tough, I'm not interested.

[etchuck]

I will add... I will dance with friends of mine as a male following another male, but I wouldn't do that with others at socials.

[ratherbdancing]

Where I'm at it isn't uncommon for 2 very advanced *straight*male dancers who know each other very well to dance together, but usually they just want the attention, and it always turns into a show. I never see it done with anyone that isnt pro- or close to it. As for girls, me and my friends dance together a lot, and so do the collegiate girls. It's totally accepted because were just out there having fun and acting crazy and we don't do it that often (maybe once a night if that) unless there is a major shortage of guys.

[Another Elizabeth]

When I teach intermediate/advanced classes, I generally require everyone to learn both parts. The first time I put couples together, I tell everyone to dance with a same-gender partner (so there will be one person in every couple who is dancing a role s/he is used to). We dance it through, swap roles, and dance it through again. Then they're allowed to dance with an opposite-gender partner.

This also has the great advantage that I never have to worry about gender balance in the classes. The "extras" dance with each other without prompting.

I've probably lost a few individuals who are uncomfortable with this strategy, but I find that when everyone's doing it, most people don't mind. (Years ago, a close friend had a traditional afternoon wedding reception, followed by a "formal cross dress" party that night at his fraternity. I helped the groom sew his wedding gown. :shock: :D Everyone participated and seemed to feel comfortable with it, because everyone else was doing it, too. The funniest part was the hordes of bored-looking, identically-dressed women standing around, while the men ran up to one another asking, "Where did you get that dress? And your hair looks fabulous!")

[NWesterner]

Thanks for all the replies, and for the welcome, Pacion. It's encouraging to read about all of the tolerance out there; can't have too much of that! (before someone jumps on me: I'm talking about tolerance for real individual differences, not the abandonment of all standards of excellence :D )

Elizabeth, I love your approach. I wish my early teachers had done that!

[KevinL]

andifyoudontlikethatforgetisaidanythinganythingata ltralalalovethosemenwoohooyippie.

If you are trying to say that you are gay, you'll have to be a little more explicit. 8^) If you aren't trying to say that you are gay, what are you trying to say?

As far as I know there is at least one other lesbian on DF, but given that any of us could fake a gender online, or just not bother mentioning their orientation, there could be more. Who cares what someones orientation is? Can they dance? That's what I care about.

I lived in San Francisco when I started learning ballroom, and in the teacher training program we were required to learn both sides of any dance, and we had to trade partners and ended up dancing with everyone in class. It was great. The only bad part was the heavyset guy who _thought_ that he was heavy, and therefor wouldn't move when he was led. I've danced with heavier women who didn't think they were heavy and so did move when they were led. It's all in your attitude, I think.

In my classes (and private lessons) I demonstrate both parts, and dance as a follower if the class is unbalanced. I'll dance in rotation as a leader or follower if the class is unbalanced, but not if there are (very rarely) and even number of leaders and followers.

Presently I've got a couple of women learning the leader role, but I have yet to have any men take a class as a follower.

One of my intermediate leaders does sometimes volunteer to be the demonstration partner when I lead certain moves. He does pretty well considering that he's never really danced as a follower.

When I first moved here the local swing scene had very few guy-followers, but I think I opened the up by dancing with guys. They generally don't dance with other guys, though, even though the dancees are fairly balanced male/female. I think the guys dance together much less commmonly than ladies dance together, but I don't think anyone cares one way or the other.

In the ballroom community I've never seen another guy do the follower part, but I do as often as I can. In fact, there is a young gay leader here and he was a little suprised when I asked him to lead. Although he had been dancing for years, I was the first guy he had danced with, at least in public.

I did once dance with another local teacher, but he could only dance about half a song before he stopped and said, "We'd better stop before they shoot us."

I have occassionally danced with a guy swing dancer at the ballroom dances, and one time I heard from across the room an older (it sounded) woman ask, "Why are there two guys dancing?" I don't think she expected to project that well.

So, final answer? Women dancing together is much more common, and in some local scences male/male is acceptable, in others it hasn't happened enough to make an impact.

Kevinl

[Vince A]

Sexual preferences, gay or lesbian, never even enters my mind when I see two males or two females dancing together . . . jeez, they're just dancing . . . I don't need to know or care to know their "preferences."

What I do know, is that I've danced with both genders . . . and when I'm the follower . . . I have a tendency to back lead and coaster step, oh, and I can be such a beoch!

[Lita_rulez]

Sexual preferences, gay or lesbian, never even enters my mind when I see two males or two females dancing together . . . jeez, they're just dancing . . . I don't need to know or care to know their "preferences."



My thoughts exactly.

To be honest the title of the topic actualy puzzled me. I mean, it's a dance for crying out loud. Sure there is a huge part of seduction in the dance. But then again, you do not dance each and every single dance giving it a 110% sex appeal, you do it because it is enjoyable, pleasurable, and fun. Yes, believe me, some dances you just do for fun !

Then, why would it not be fun to take on the follow's role ? I mean, part of the dance is allmost acting, you can push the envelope and act the other genders part !

I am personaly a very bad follow, but I'm trying from time to time. To begin with, I started taking classes as a follow, not just for the fun of it, but to improve my understanding of leadin mechanics. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of guys are not realy sure about theire manhood since some refused to dance with me during the class ! I mean, it's not like I was groping his friends or humping his leg, it was just normal class rotation (like your going to dance together to practice a move twice and then switch again...) but no, some guys would actually step out of the circle to not dance with me.
And it's a shame for them to, because I wanted to get a grip on leading techniques, so I went to take a much less advance class then what I would take as a lead, so I could help guys when they had problems with a move or patern...

Then again, I do know that comes my birthday (in 9 days now) I'm going to find myself alone in the midle of the dance floor, and have to dance with many follow (that I am going to enjoy this year, now that I know a litle more how to dance then last year) and then leads are going to come in and make me dance as a follow and spin me like crazy...

Wich means I have less than 10 days to learn how to spin !!!!

PLEASE, HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!



P.S.
And believe me, none of those guys is even remotely gay ;)

[etchuck]

I mentioned this in passing in another thread but...

I finished 3rd in a Jill-and-Jack four-dance swing competition yesterday. That means that I was the follower rather than leader. I thought I did a horrible job but apparently it wasn't as bad as I thought. :)

The songs were ECS, WCS, ECS, Merengue (not announced ahead of time). When that merengue came on, I was thinking, "Oh thank God!"

While I didn't get the $75 jackpot prize for first, I did get a tiki torch for my next party.

[cocodrilo]

Spent the better part of two hours at the Manolito concert dancing with my girl-buddy- she doesn't do much salsa but LOVES basics & basic shines. I can to a couple simple leads but do what I love most- big, show-off shines! Gives us both a chance to get out on the dance floor, even without a partner(a lot of the people there were just dancing in their little groups, solo! GREAT!!!)

[Sagitta]

Then again, I do know that comes my birthday (in 9 days now) I'm going to find myself alone in the midle of the dance floor, and have to dance with many follow (that I am going to enjoy this year, now that I know a litle more how to dance then last year) and then leads are going to come in and make me dance as a follow and spin me like crazy...

Wich means I have less than 10 days to learn how to spin !!!!

PLEASE, HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!

P.S.
And believe me, none of those guys is even remotely gay ;)

Okay and how are you going to get guys come out and dance with you as a follow with everyone watching? This EM would like to know.

[etchuck]

Then again, I do know that comes my birthday (in 9 days now) I'm going to find myself alone in the midle of the dance floor, and have to dance with many follow (that I am going to enjoy this year, now that I know a litle more how to dance then last year) and then leads are going to come in and make me dance as a follow and spin me like crazy...

Wich means I have less than 10 days to learn how to spin !!!!

PLEASE, HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!

P.S. And believe me, none of those guys is even remotely gay ;)

Okay and how are you going to get guys come out and dance with you as a follow with everyone watching? This EM would like to know.

I don't know what type of dance you're going to do either, but in my experience, you have to have some "dead ringers" set up so that you can switch from following to leading. As a person doing music, I'd try to be sure there was one long piece you can do either, but you wouldn't have time to "just follow" or "just lead".

[Lita_rulez]

Then again, I do know that comes my birthday (in 9 days now) I'm going to find myself alone in the midle of the dance floor, and have to dance with many follow (that I am going to enjoy this year, now that I know a litle more how to dance then last year) and then leads are going to come in and make me dance as a follow and spin me like crazy...

Wich means I have less than 10 days to learn how to spin !!!!

PLEASE, HELP MEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!

P.S.
And believe me, none of those guys is even remotely gay ;)

Okay and how are you going to get guys come out and dance with you as a follow with everyone watching? This EM would like to know.

I do not have to "make them come" it a sort of tradition.

On someone's birthday, we just stop the music, get everyone to form a circle, put the birthday person in the midle, and get as many people from the oposit gendre to dance with him/her. Don't you guys do this ?

On a girls' birthday, by the end of the song, the DJ/teacher will usually scream something meaning it's time to spin her heart out !

Then on one guy's birthday last year, near the end, the teacher came out and made him dance as a follow, so he could spin HIS heart out...

And so more often then not, guys will now come out near the end of the song and spin the birthday boy.

I know at least 2 or 3 friends of mine will be there, so I'm expecting to be spun... (actually, I don't want to do my birthday there now, I4d rather wait till septembre when there will be a lot more people, hance a lot more follow to dance with, and I did not tell anyone, but heck somebody is bound to rat me...)

[cocodrilo]

All the salsa parties I've been to that have had birthdays do this! Even if someone is reluctant to dance, they are dragged from the circle to dance with the birthday guy/girl! Always lots of fun!

[MacMoto]

On someone's birthday, we just stop the music, get everyone to form a circle, put the birthday person in the midle, and get as many people from the oposit gendre to dance with him/her. Don't you guys do this ?

I've seen this done when I was out of town, and it looked fun. Never seen it in my local scene though... :?

[cocodrilo]

I guess it's a latino thing. All of the latin-type dance events I attend here are latino-sponsored events!(They also sing the "Happy Birthday" in Spanish, which I don't know... :( )