Head Position

[Dreamer]

Can anyone tell me what the correct head position is? At my class, I'm told to put my head way back and to the side; which puts me off balance and looks very mechanical. When I get individual tuition with another teacher, he is very adamant that I curve my back and neck in a line and take my head back and turn it slightly to the side which is much more in keeping with the correct posture as he teaches it. This certainly feels better and looks nicer too. Who is right!!??

[Vince A]

Can anyone tell me what the correct head position is? At my class, I'm told to put my head way back and to the side; which puts me off balance and looks very mechanical. When I get individual tuition with another teacher, he is very adamant that I curve my back and neck in a line and take my head back and turn it slightly to the side which is much more in keeping with the correct posture as he teaches it. This certainly feels better and looks nicer too. Who is right!!??
Hi Dreamer . . . and welcome . . .

I assume you are talking about the Waltz here???

This is a tough call . . . I've seen both, and I would stay with what you are being taught in the individual tuition, until you feel the need to change.

However . . . I might add . . . with my Pro/partner . . . I hold the frame, very wide-backed, we are connected, and she is leaning back (very curved) and her head is way back and to the side . . . and it stays this way throughout the dance, except for those times when we change directions or the move (pattern) calls for it. She says that she stares at the point where the ceiling meets the side wall, which helps her to stay in this alignment.

Hopefully, some female members of the Dance-Forums will chime in and help you out . . .

[DanceMentor]

You should be able to attain a balanced position without much trouble. Usually, the most common problem is people try to bend their head straight back at the neck. The neck should stay aligned with the spinal cord, but the head should be turned to the right. Try to think of keeping your knees bent while stretching and growing though the back and torso.

[SDsalsaguy]

DanceMentor's advice is spot on...the "bend" of the head doesn't come from bending the head back!

Think of yourself as having to do a high jump (as in over a bar onto mats), and "pour" your upper torso up and over to your right side in exactly the same manner.

Hope that helps.

[Dreamer]

Great advice and I think I've got it now. I have quite a deeply curved back so am halfway there already.... my head falls back naturally when I curve backwards with my spine and neck. I just didn't like the way I was being urged to only move my head back without the additional curve of the upper body. Following your advice, I practised this in the mirror this morning, and turned my head more to the side - what an improvement - it sure looks good! Thanks everyone!

[Larinda McRaven]

There is some good advice here. I just want to add that there are muscles that need to be built up incrementally to get you to a good position. Aiming for a too "big" of a position at first will just end you up with a backache and pulled muscles in your neck.

I also think of keeping my chest pulled up and forward to offset the weight of my head going back. The stretch back and left tends to come from about 2 or 3 inches below my clavical. Then after I reach a back and leftward stretch I can simply rotate my head to turn and look left with no muscle strain or pinching in the muscles on the left side of my neck.

I also try very hard to never let the back of my neck shrink. All of the stretching in my neck must first come from the back of the neck pulling up.

[dTas]

i've been told to imagine a a straight line (your spine). make that line as long as possible and point it up and slightly back and to the left.

be sure to maximize the distance between your ears and your shoulders.

[standardgirl]

When I first started dancing international standard, my pro teacher always put my head way back, and creat a big curve in my body. But a few weeks ago, he started to tell me that I am over doing this, and now, he is pulling my head forward. If what I do is wrong, putting my head too far back, why did he use to teach my to do that when I first started? I never ask him the question, but my guess is that, when I first started, I was too straight, and he just me to have the curve. Now, it's time to change things around. He also said that I was throwing my balance away by putting my head too far back.

Another teacher always say that the head should by over your left niple. :D people laugh whenever he says this. But I have found it really helpful.

[jocemill]

does this advice apply to all smooth dances, or just to waltz? If not, what is the proper head positioning for the other dances? Also, where should one look in the latin dances? (I'm asking from a woman's perspective)

[Twilight_Elena]

Ballroom tango is the only dance I've done head technique, and I just have to look to the left all the time. Or something.
Oh well, I'm too much of a beginner to know for certain. My teacher says we work from the feet and go upwards, so the head is probably the last thing I should worry about.

Twilight Elena

[Warren J. Dew]

does this advice apply to all smooth dances, or just to waltz?
All smooth dances with possible slight variations in tango and viennese waltz.

[Rainbow]

Hi,
Is there a way you could lock in the head position so it doesn't move too much ? My male partner seem to move a lot during the dance. Thanks.


Rainbow ^_^

[Larinda McRaven]

Not really. No one says your head should not move.

The position of the head is not static. It changes angles relative to the body depending on direction of rotation, picture lines...etc (and of course promenade).

You should learn each of the minor changes that go with each of the moves and then be able to transistion smoothly from one to the next.

If his head "seem to move a lot during the dance" then it is not moving in the correct places at the correct time. When it moves correctly it will balance and counterbalance the shape changes between the two of you and should not be noticable. Stopping it from moving maybe the lesser of two evils but it still is not correct. I would not want to fix my head in any one position.

[Chris Stratton]

And sometimes the head actually stays constant in the room, while the body turns underneath it. For example, an outside change to promenade - the lady looks more or less in the direction of travel the whole time, but her body switches from something of a left side lead to promenade.

[Rainbow]

Hi Chris,
Feeling a little abstract in the word "constant", does this mean the head is always pointing at the direction where you're going ?

Rainbow

[Snuggles]

When i dance, my teachers tell me that my head should always remain over my shoulders and in a comfortable position.

I stand with my center on my partner and from there up i slightly arch my back backwards, my head follows this line and goes slightly to the left looking over the far edge of my partners shoulder...

Keep trying different positions until you find one right for you and doesnt feel unco.

[Chris Stratton]

Hi Chris,
Feeling a little abstract in the word "constant", does this mean the head is always pointing at the direction where you're going ?

Rainbow

No, not always and not exactly. Sometimes it might be more the direction you are coming from. But there is a strong element of the travel and swing leading the head to the appropriate position.

The outside change to promenade is an example of a step where the lady moves in close to the same general direction throughout, while the man opens off of her to promenade. Her shoulders will make around a quarter turn of rotation, but her nose and toes will continue pointing in very nearly the same direction throughout the three steps.

(Although the track across the floor changes by 1/8 turn, the lady's nose and toes orientation need not, since the direction of travel in promenade is approximately 1/8 of a turn diagonally across the feet)

[Rainbow]

To Chris,
Thanks very much.

Rainbow ^_^

[Peaches]

Yes, I know full well that this question reveals my ignorance in this forum, but oh well.

Where are you supposed to be looking in standard?

Background: In working on positioning/frame/etc. my teacher likes to start with my weight over my right foot, and he describes our position as "spiraling around each other." He encourages me to look, not off to the left-ish, but describes it as trying to look at the back of his head. Odd, but it somehow works. But then in looking through pictures it seems as though people are looking more out to the left. What's going on here?

I can think of a couple possible answers. 1.I need to find a better teacher. (Don't think that's it, but you can never be sure.) 2.It's a difference in level. (I'm only 2 months into this standard foray.) 3.Most pictures seem to be taken at a special point in time, when it's not just the basic that's being done. (Whereas I'm thinking of how he wants it to be for basics.) 4.How it feels to me, and how it seems with his descriptions, does not actually look the way I think it might.

Any insight?

[Kitty]

Hi.

None of the above:-)

there are different holds and styles... they are all correct.

Same thing for the style of holding your right hand and mens left. Difference in style.

Also so many different parts of your body affect the position of your head that this question is almost irrelevant. Where you are looking really depends on a lot of things.


What you are describing as "looking at the back of men's head" sounds very traditional. I think looking more to the left is more of a recent thing. My old teacher actually used exact same explanation about looking at the back of men's head.

another explanations I've heard was "straight" (or straight and sli-i-ightly to the left)
and "as far as you can to the left".
All of these from really strong pro competitors...
This is just dancing, so a lot of things are correct as long as they "look good" (hopefully not just to you, but to judges as well).

It is not the head positions though but the position of your whole body that will determine the final position of your head.

So the thing to do is to look straight and slightly left and concentrate on something else (frame, posture, shoulders, position relative to partner) and not worry about the head...

[Peaches]

Hi.

Hey there!

Same thing for the style of holding your right hand and mens left. Difference in style.

Could you, please, excuse my ignorance and elaborate on this a bit? Alls I know about my my right hand holding his left is that I have an annoying tendency to keep my hand open with my fingers sticking up, which drives my teacher nuts. Part of it is intentional on my part (don't particularly like being touched, which I've mostly gotten over, but still manifests itself in odd ways--I don't like really actually touching him with my hand...don't ask.) Part of it is a reaction to having my hand gripped (makes me feel claustrophobic (sp?) somehow). Part of it is just that it happens when I'm thinking about other things.

But beyond that, I've never heard of any sort of style differences regarding the hand hold...

[Kitty]

But beyond that, I've never heard of any sort of style differences regarding the hand hold...


You probably will:-)

nothing major just slightly angled this way or that. Mens wrist straight, lady's bent, the other way around. All sorts of little preferenced that don't really matter...

[Dancebug]

Just a quick note on hand hold because I got to run.

There are a classic style, palm to palm, and a more modern style, thumb to thumb. We found thumb to thumb works a lot better for us. Before we were introduced to this style, I often ended up hanging on to my partner's big thumb.

[Peaches]

Just a quick note on hand hold because I got to run.

There are a classic style, palm to palm, and a more modern style, thumb to thumb. We found thumb to thumb works a lot better for us. Before we were introduced to this style, I often ended up hanging on to my partner's big thumb.

Oh, crap. Ask and you shall receive, I suppose.

Since Dancebug is currently running, is there anyone else who can elaborate? On this or the head question?

[Kitty]

Oh, crap. Ask and you shall receive, I suppose.

Since Dancebug is currently running, is there anyone else who can elaborate? On this or the head question?

Well, Dancebug provided a good description of the hand hold differences. Can't explain it any better in writing, and probably shouldn't in a head thread:-). It is easy to show though, so maybe ask your teacher if you are curious, I am sure he knows.

I am using the thumb to thumb way...

Some people find that thumb to thumb works better, but others find that palm to palm feels more personal...

In any case, this is just somehting two people agree on, and then use. There is no right or wrong here.

[samina]

i'm beginning to train myself to keep my thumb held close-but-relaxed to the side of my hand, so that it doesn't wrap about the man's hand.

i danced with someone new this weekend, and the very first thing he said was "whatever you do, don't hold my thumb... i hate that". and i know that if i keep my thumb apart from my palm, that's going to happen eventually. that, or the thumb is going to stick up and look silly.

feels weird to hold my thumbs closed, tho. i'm sure i'll get used to.

and as for head position, peach, i think this probly will shift as the way you hold your torso/spine shifts. i understand that the best way to place one's head is in a curved line with the spine, however it is positioned, so that there is no false turning of the head one way or the other. and the more you rotate or spiral to your left away from the man, the more the head will look to the left. but it will still be in a smooth curving line with the spine.

you know i'm no expert on this... but that's what i'm understanding about it so far :)

[fascination]

peaches,

A) another explanation is that how it looks and how it feels are two very different things...and what must be done to make it look left is not neccessarily to look left....just like leaning back isn't how to look like the lady is shaped far away...

as for hand hold, we are thumb to thumb

[skwiggy]

In the palm to palm hand position, the two palms are pressed against each other, the man's thumb fits between the lady's thumb and pointer finger, and the lady's thumb fits just about over the knuckle of the man's thumb.

In the thumb to thumb hand position, the 2 thumbs line up side by side, both pointing upwards. This tends to create a bit more space between the palms.

We use the palm to palm position. I have used the thumb to thumb in the past. I also don't think either one is better than the other. But whichever one you are accustomed to using at the time, the other will feel foreign.

As far as the head position, Kitty described it quite well. I've never heard the part about looking at the back of your partner's head, but it seems that it would encourage that spiral that I have heard quite a bit about. It also seems that it would help to keep your left side towards your partner, which is always a good thing.

I think it's true that to have a proper head position, you need to think about everything but the head. But since you're looking for them, some hints and tips I've heard include, "ear towards the elbow", "head facing towards the hand" and "look towards the line between the ceiling and the wall". It sounds like your teacher knows what he's talking about, so trust in him. Worry about getting your body in the right alignment, maintain your head as an extension of your spine, and the head should come quite naturally from there.

Something else to consider... you may want to take a lesson or two from a female. I took lessons from men for years. They all gave me advice on my head, and I never truly felt comfortable with where my head should go. As soon as I started taking lessons from lady coaches, my head issues worked themselves out. Not to say that these men didn't understand where my head should go. But to understand it, and even to do it occasionally, does not bring the same level of mastery that the act of dancing it regularly does. And just being able to see the examples regularly helped a ton.

[Peaches]

Interesting. In my first non-AT lesson, my teacher got on my case about wanting to feel my fingers firmly holding on to the back of his hand, and my thumb firmly on hop of his.

My preference is bizarre--I like my middle, ring and pinky fingers on top of his hand, to have my index fingers to the outside of his thumb, with my thumb ending up in the vicinity of his wrist. This lets me easily keep a firm grip on his hand, makes it so my hand doesn't get squished and alleviates the claustrophobia thing. It's also comfortable on my wrist, which I tend to turn pretty hard towards me. Unfortunately, my hold doesn't fly with any teachers and I get nailed for it. But I swear it's the most comfortable, and I always try to get away with it when I can (social dancing).

Edit: Er...sorry...this is in response to Samina's post...others got in line ahead of me, apparently.

[Peaches]

Thanks, Skwiggy, for the detailed answer. It appears as though I'm being taught with the palm to palm method.

I've also gotten the head as an extension of the spine description and demonstration before. Many, many times. I've gotten the direction facing as a result of shaping and body movements demo. Still, though, in the process of trying to focus on other things I seem to have a knack for completely fubar-ing other things, even if I've got to contort myself to do it.

I'll try thinking about everything except my head, though.

Oh, and yes, it does seem to help with keeping my left side more towards my partner and not breaking my right shoulder back. Another tendancy... *sigh* )!@#$*%^*#$_* *sigh*

[samina]

This lets me easily keep a firm grip on his hand...

i've got a lesson tonite and had already made a mental note to be very aware of my hand position with my instructor, especially where the thumb lies.

i was thinking a little more about my head position and wanted to re-iterate what fascination said about it not being where you look... the direction of my face changes depending on how much my instructor shapes me away from him. and although i renew my general frame, he drives the shaping, so it's a very fluid process. definitely not a fixed matter...

[Peaches]

No, definitely not fixed. I'm willing to accept that as the answer.

I guess I'm just thinking of what I hear seemingly every single !()#$()#*%-ing time..."Look at the back of my head!" and then seeing pics where the lady seems to be looking out over her left elbow...and wondering ***?

[Larinda McRaven]

I agree the head position is definately not fixed. It is very fluid and reactive to the shape, torque and rotation of your body. So the position you start in when you take hold is not the position you will be in midway or at the end of a feather or three step. The position of the head in a left rotary figure is different than during a right figure. Head weight is an integral part of many patterns, so maximizing its force requires it to stretch into different angles at different times.

There are many many variables of movement that affect the position...so... what you are given as a starting point should evolve as you move. Sounds like you have a good starting point.

[Laura]

As for hand hold, I've done both, but currently use palm-to-palm. We never actually talked about it, that's just what happened when we put our hands together and started dancing the first day, and we've never seen fit to talk about or change it.

Head positions and fluid and tricky. I had a coaching session a week and a half ago where the coach stood off to one side and kept saying "look at me, look at me!" I practically had my chin over my shoulder, and my nose was lined up down my arm toward my elbow. Once I got used to it, though, it felt really really good.

[Chris Stratton]

In the thumb to thumb hand position, the 2 thumbs line up side by side, both pointing upwards. This tends to create a bit more space between the palms.

If it does, you are not doing it right at all.

The man's side of it is sort of thumb to small finger(s), while the lady's is middle finger to palm.

Getting both wrists unbroken and the elbows in the right places is key to getting the palms connected in this hold. If the man's arm is too depressed, or the lady's elbow too far back, they would have the choice of breaking their wrists or seperating the palms, neither of which is desireable.

On head "position" there is far more variation in the rotation of the head during dancing, but it's position is fairly constant. Of course what position that will be will depend somewhat on the skill/strength of the dancers.

[skwiggy]

If it does, you are not doing it right at all.



Well as I stated earlier, I'm not doing it at all. I use the other hold.

Perhaps I misconstrued your tone, as is often the case in written communication. But if I read it correctly, the condescension was not appreciated.

[cornutt]

I agree the head position is definately not fixed. It is very fluid and reactive to the shape, torque and rotation of your body. So the position you start in when you take hold is not the position you will be in midway or at the end of a feather or three step. The position of the head in a left rotary figure is different than during a right figure. Head weight is an integral part of many patterns, so maximizing its force requires it to stretch into different angles at different times.


Larinda, could you address the head rotation issue? I was under the improssion that the rotation of the head, while still important, was not as important as the position of the head. The reason I say this is because I've observed, and I think another poster mentioned it, a lot of variation in advanced and pro couples in this area. Some are looking just past each other's ears, while others are looking waaaaay over to the side. I personally think the latter comes across as a bit affected, but maybe there's a reason for it?

[Chris Stratton]

Often you will be either looking where you are going, or looking where you are not going. The looking direction may tend to stay somewhat constant in the room, even as the relative position of one partner to another rotates; then at some point the look direction switch to match (or oppose) a new direction of movement.

So asking where they are looking relative to each other doesn't make as much sense as asking where they are looking relative to where they are going at that point in time.

Photographers also have an uncanny habit of catching couples in the middle of less than perfect transitions.

[Peaches]

Ye gods, what a can o' worms.

I'd like to clarify that I've been at this for 2 months (seriously-ish). I get that there's a lot of fluidity, and variation and subtlety depending on a multitude of factors. But I was kinda just asking about a basic starting position. Starting as in standing still, pre-movement, as a general guideline.

Interesting discussion, though, even if a lot of it is way over my head at this point. Maybe...hopefully...one of these days I'll be able to think about things like shaping and whatnot instead of something other than "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap, oh crap...".*

*(I don't usually think "Oh, crap." It's usually more like "Oh s***, oh m-f, oh s***. Except more often than I'd like it's not silent though. Yet something else to work on...keeping my freakin' mouth shut.)

[Ithink]

Peaches, people have talked to you about fluidity, variation, subtlety, blah, blah, blah... My coach would say this: forget your head and move your body in response to the lead. Your head should only be attached to your spine and be its extension not some out-of-control entity that rotates in different directions. It doesn't... If your teacher puts you into a starting position such as the one you described and then proceeds to dance basics with you without much shaping, sway or stretch, then look at the back of his head you shall. The positions you see in photos are extreme positions created with a LOT of counterbalance from the man (hopefully, although I've seen many even a pro female do what my teacher tells me never to do - try to stretch on my own when the man does nothing to help me achieve the intended shape) and are not something that should really be done with out a proper lead. In summary, stay in the starting position unless and until your teacher leads you to do more and then do it by responding with your center and your spine, not your head detached from your body.

[tangotime]

From a coaches standpoint-- be careful you do not get too hung up on minutae at this early stage. Yes, all things are important to create a final result-- but-- as a very famous coach once stated-- " Dont get hung up on your feet , and forget how to dance " .Point-- you are at the beginning of a journey , and seeking ( or demanding ) instant perfection , is not the path to take.

Try understand concepts, and develop them as you move, each time thinking about where your effort needs to be for that given lesson . You will hear many different ideas on how to achieve a given result--- take the one that works for you .Some may seem contradictory , and some very obvious .

The key, now, is patience .

As far as your current teacher-- has he the experience to guide you on this journey ?

[Joe]

We use the palm to palm position. I have used the thumb to thumb in the past.
As a data point, I have also used thumb-to-thumb in the past, and have no idea why I am using palm-to-palm with Skwiggy.

Also, when I did use thumb-to-thumb, there wasn't much--if any--space between our palms. It was very much like the palm-to-palm position except for the thumbs being parallel instead of crossed. I think much better descriptions of the holds would be "parallel thumbs" and "crossed thumbs" since that's the part that should differ, not the rest of the hold.

[Joe]

As far as the head, I find that unless I'm in a line with other things going on, as a general rule of thumb my head is facing the opposite direction that my center is facing. Your head should always be attached to your spine. I mean, of course, it's obviously always attached physically, but your head and spine should have continuity of connection, so to speak.

[tangotime]

Dont,cha just hate it, when your head is not attached to your spine ?? !!!!:raisebro:

[samina]

as a general rule of thumb my head is facing the opposite direction that my center is facing.

are you sure about that? ;)

ladies would be kissing the back of your head in an embrace if that were the case LOL

[Chris Stratton]

The simplest rule is probably nose follows toes.

With the body free to do something different rotationally.

[samina]

fwiw, i discovered that my instructor and i dance w/ the palm-to-palm hand position. and whatever i was thinking of doing re holding my thumb alongside my hand... nix that. it wraps nicely around my pro's thumb and that's where it's gonna stay. :)

wasn't crazy about the thumb-to-thumb position, just cuz it seemed our thumbs created a kind of bump on top -- seemed less streamlined to my newb sensibilities...

[Peaches]

From a coaches standpoint-- be careful you do not get too hung up on minutae at this early stage. [...snip...]Point-- you are at the beginning of a journey , and seeking ( or demanding ) instant perfection , is not the path to take. [...snip...] The key, now, is patience .

Oy. If I had a nickel... Are you my teacher??? I swear I just got this same lecture from him in my last lesson.

I know, I know, I know... Patience, though, is absolutely not my strong point. Nor is ignoring the little details that i don't understand (and should probably not worry about right now). And as for instant perfection? Well, let's just say that in the past I've only ever dealt with academic (as opposed to physical) challenges, and nothing every took me more than 2 or maybe 3 tries to get. This really having to work to get this is driving me crazy (see also: lack of patience).

As far as your current teacher-- has he the experience to guide you on this journey ?
I believe so. Mayhaps not to the very top, but I don't want that.

[tangotime]

Sounds like he and I are on the same page !.--have dealt with academics ( am also one) and the approach is invariably the same.
There is nothing wrong with your desire, you just should temper it with reality.-- In as much--- knowing your immediate goal short term, is very attainable, and no forcing the issue will bring it to a speedy conclusion.
I deal with this on a constant basis with my students, borne out of frustration in many cases. I think the old adage " dancing is not a sprint-- but a marathon " in accumulating knowledge and proficiency is a good maxim .

[Anna]

We've been doing thumb-to-thumb, but we have a very pesky problem where my hand starts to hang off his big thumb, which makes my arm heavy and the connection there basically nonexistant. Perhaps changing to palm-to-palm would help, but I suspect there is some fundamental problem with positioning that we haven't been able to figure out...we've talked to various people and no one else has been able to figure it out either.

By the way, if anyone has a recommendation for someone particularly strong in explaining the fundamentals of frame, shape, etc. in the NY area, I'd be grateful if you let me know. Preferably in an analytic rather than touchy-feely way, since we're both math geeks... (Feel free to pm me so this doesn't get highjacked.)

[cornutt]

Dont,cha just hate it, when your head is not attached to your spine ?? !!!!:raisebro:

Yeah, that's a real pain in the neck. :p

[and123]

http://foldies.wtms.net/calvinachoo.gif

[tangotime]

very very funny:D :D :D

[Another Elizabeth]

By the way, if anyone has a recommendation for someone particularly strong in explaining the fundamentals of frame, shape, etc. in the NY area, I'd be grateful if you let me know. Preferably in an analytic rather than touchy-feely way, since we're both math geeks... (Feel free to pm me so this doesn't get highjacked.)
Have you tried Charlotte Jorgensen?

[Kitty]

Have you tried Charlotte Jorgensen?

She is not easy to "catch " in New York.

[White Chacha]

Sadly she's moved to California :-( Got a lesson with her a couple of weeks ago in Boston though :-)

[Anna]

Oh well...maybe someday...

[Al Gisnered]

We've been doing thumb-to-thumb, but we have a very pesky problem where my hand starts to hang off his big thumb, which makes my arm heavy and the connection there basically nonexistant. Perhaps changing to palm-to-palm would help, but I suspect there is some fundamental problem with positioning that we haven't been able to figure out...we've talked to various people and no one else has been able to figure it out either.

It may be that his hand isn't placed well - does his little finger hit the back of your hand at or just above your wrist bone? I find that, if the lady will accept this hold, we have very stable position and there's a no slipping. Both of us feel quite secure, so there's no need for anything but the lightest grip.

Or it may be that in the middle of some figures, you actually move your arm or hand around. With each move, you slip a tiny touch, and after a couple of measures you end up hanging off his thumb. Next time you practice, try the following: have him hold his hand perfectly flat, and touch the center of his palm with your middle finger only. Dance a basic set of figures through an entire song. Try not to loose contact with his hand, while at the same time maintaining the lightest touch you can. If you have a tendency to move your arm or hand about, it will slip around quite obviously, and you will know what the problem is. This is a handy little practice exercise that helps fix that.

By the way, this, coupled with light one finger touches by both of you on the other side of the frame is also a good exercise in developing both of your sensitivities - his to leading without manhandling and yours to being led without hanging on. One really becomes aware of the body's role in the lead and follow.

[Anna]

I'm pretty sure his little finger hits the back of my hand.

That sounds like a good exercise, thanks. We did find some specific points in our routines where the problem comes up, but we haven't figured out the underlying cause. But that's why I think it is something coming from our relative position rather than the handhold itself. (Also, it never happens in tango.)

[Joe]

If he gives you the proper "handle" you shouldn't be sliding off. Basically he should be giving you his hand with the thumb and forefinger forming a V. Your "handle" is the part of his hand between the corner of the V and the end of the forefinger.

[Al Gisnered]

I'm pretty sure his little finger hits the back of my hand.

Check it out next time you dance. Notice if his little finger goes not just to the back of your hand, but down to the very top of your wrist bone. Your hand narrows to that point, so if his little finger sits there, he will have your hand in a "v" shaped cradle, which is very secure.


That sounds like a good exercise, thanks. We did find some specific points in our routines where the problem comes up, but we haven't figured out the underlying cause. But that's why I think it is something coming from our relative position rather than the handhold itself. (Also, it never happens in tango.)


Which leads me to wonder if there isn't a little excess movement in the frame. Try the exercise and see.

Almost every coach I've had over the years has used an exercise similar to this to help identify, resolve, or strengthen frame issues. Some were more involved. One used a soft squeak toy which beeped if pressed too hard, one involved a ping pong ball which easily slipped out of the palm. In the end they all did pretty much the same thing.

[thinkingsam]

Hello! Did a quick search and couldn't find a thread on this so here goes:

Is there a recommended or perhaps even a "correct" head positioning for the female? My partner has been getting seemingly contradictory advice ranging from having to rotate her head completely to the left, to achieving the look by tilting the torso rather than by rotating her head.

Now I'm aware that a lot of these details should arise from the overall feel of the dance and the overall posture, but we're received so much contradictory advice from various "experts" (not to mention from our peers, who have their own ideas) that I'm curious about whether there actually is a correct way to do this. Thanks!

[Laura]

I've been taught that there is no "backwards," that the curve is produced by the lady projecting forward. This takes a lot of strength and flexibility, and is something I am currently working on gaining through use of the Gyrotonic Expansion System.

I've also been taught that the head is positioned at the end of the spine, so where the spine is dictates where the head goes. That said, the lady's nose is not turned to her elbow, but rather is angled toward the man's bicep/shoulder (her wrist).

The current advice I've been receiving -- which is of course based on my own level of experience, and strengths and weaknesses -- is to not overdo things to get "the look" but rather to maintain a more upright poise and continue my efforts to improve and clarify what is going on "underneath," such as in the base and spine. Eventually those areas will be improved to the point where the greater degree of curve can be added on without disturbing the general posture, poise, and position of my body.

[btfgus]

I've also been taught that the head is positioned at the end of the spine, so where the spine is dictates where the head goes. That said, the lady's nose is not turned to her elbow, but rather is angled toward the man's bicep/shoulder (her wrist).

Here here! Nicely said. The lady's poise (or feminine curve) originates from the floor and is directed diagonally forward. With her looking over where her wrist watch would be. Further shape and expansion will be created by the forces naturally created through balance and counter balance.

[Laura]

Thank you :) I'm often afraid to contribute to technical discussions because I don't think that I know enough, but I guess I'm feeling kind of brave today :)

[dancepro]

I've been taught that there is no "backwards," that the curve is produced by the lady projecting forward. This takes a lot of strength and flexibility, and is something I am currently working on gaining through use of the Gyrotonic Expansion System.


I was taught the same thing. The bottom of the sternum goes (swings) forward to produce the appearance of having gone back or leaned back. I was told that under no circumstance to curve the lower back more then it's natural curve, unless I want back surgery down the road. I have no desire for surgery, so I never create the curve from my lower back but rather from the upper back and by going forward, not by going backwards.


I've also been taught that the head is positioned at the end of the spine, so where the spine is dictates where the head goes. That said, the lady's nose is not turned to her elbow, but rather is angled toward the man's bicep/shoulder (her wrist).


I was also taught that the head should be an extension of the spine. So if the spine is changing so will the head. I was told in basis closed position to keep my nose in line with the shoulder/sleeve seam of the man's shirt. I was also trained that if there is shape or sway then the head could turn to face the elbow but it must return to neutral before moving on to the next step.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Thank you :) I'm often afraid to contribute to technical discussions because I don't think that I know enough, but I guess I'm feeling kind of brave today :)

As you can see from my previous post I agree with what you say. You should not be afraid to contribute. I think you know a lot more then you give yourself credit for. From what you said, you were right on track according to what I was taught. Keep posting please.:)

Dancepro

[tangotime]

:

Is there a recommended or perhaps even a "correct" head positioning for the female?




Geoffrey Hearn has a new interesting article on the " head " in this bi monthly edition of the IDTA magazine . The info. is not new in the sense that it is already" known" by many pros, but it details and clarifies some interesting points .

Scrivener also has an excellent article in his book on the subject .

[QPO]

I am assuming you are referring to the man with the head to the right, the lady has to be to the left does it not?

You should be able to attain a balanced position without much trouble. Usually, the most common problem is people try to bend their head straight back at the neck. The neck should stay aligned with the spinal cord, but the head should be turned to the right. Try to think of keeping your knees bent while stretching and growing though the back and torso.

[QPO]

As we are currently training for our first comp, my styling over the last seven weeks has changed a lot. my position on the man is different and I am trying to stretch myself out to the left, up and out, my partner said that dancing now is so light and effortless....

[cornutt]

I am assuming you are referring to the man with the head to the right, the lady has to be to the left does it not?

Yes, the way the man is supposed to stretch himself, his head should be somewhat to the right. Not quite to the extent that the lady takes her head to the left, but somewhat. Same principle applies as to what Laura said: the head weight should be balanced on top of the spine.

If you sit up straight in a chair and move your head around, you can feel when it's balanced and when it's not.

[fascination]

As you can see from my previous post I agree with what you say. You should not be afraid to contribute. I think you know a lot more then you give yourself credit for. From what you said, you were right on track according to what I was taught. Keep posting please.:)

Danceprolaura...I will only echo this sentiment...as it is also precisely what I have been taught

[Warren J. Dew]

Is there a recommended or perhaps even a "correct" head positioning for the female? My partner has been getting seemingly contradictory advice ranging from having to rotate her head completely to the left, to achieving the look by tilting the torso rather than by rotating her head.

I agree with what Laura says, though I would note that some people seem perfectly willing to risk the back surgery in order to get a bigger - but not, in my opinion, better - shape.

I do think the head may end up left a bit to counterbalance a stretch in the torso. This "leftward" look is not at all a head turn, just a slight tilt.

I do not think the man's head is to his right, though it may be to the lady's right.

[madmaximus]

For both gents and ladies the ranges of reference for the rotation of the head (i.e. turning of the head left or right) are the clavicles.

For the basic (neutral. home-base, or starting) position, rotate your head so the chin is somewhere above the sternum-end of the left clavicle (i.e. the end towards your sternum)---in PP, it will be beyond the middle of the clavicle.

The chin (or nose, whatever) range when rotating left (or right--in Lady's Prom. Pos.) should never exceed the shoulder-end of the clavicle either (particularly those positions like Same Foot Lunges, ThrowAways Oversways, and other line figures) because it starts to look over-danced and exaggerated.

Another thing to remember: when we first begin to dance, the common mistake is to hold the head in a static position---no matter what.

The position is actually dynamic, so the head (or the shoulders and body underneath it) actually moves to create (and convey) visual balance.

As to posture, the head should stay over the spine whenever practical--never bend it more than its natural curve.





m

[mummsie]

you also have to remember the head is one of the heaviest parts of the body so if you lean too far back you centre of balance goes. The head has to be an extension of the spine. You have to pretend there is a piece of string going from the base of the spine up and out of your head. I have a problem with head wobble especially in our New Vogue dances which puts my partner off balance. I have been working hard on the string theory and it seems to be working :-) - mummsie

[waltzgirl]

I see so many people struggling with steps and trying to figure out how to change what their feet are doing, when the problem is where they are carrying their head weight, especially on pivots and things like that.

[QPO]

I agree with you. I have found it harder to maintain balance and head posture in NV. Perhaps it is because you are apart from each other.

Where possible I now try to maintain my standard head posture, in my NV dancing. Work in progess :neutral:


you also have to remember the head is one of the heaviest parts of the body so if you lean too far back you centre of balance goes. The head has to be an extension of the spine. You have to pretend there is a piece of string going from the base of the spine up and out of your head. I have a problem with head wobble especially in our New Vogue dances which puts my partner off balance. I have been working hard on the string theory and it seems to be working :-) - mummsie

[Fizzipop]

What a useful thread! I always found this one of the most difficult aspects of dancing Standard when I was on my uni team... I'd always end up with a white-hot pain somewhere around my neck/left shoulder, and would have to distract myself from it as I danced. Viennese Waltz was a particular killer.

The annoying thing is, at one point, I "got it" - for a random one and a half weeks, my tutors (and partner!) complimented me and told me my hold and position was as good as any girl's on the team (and given that I was not that high up in the pecking order at all, I was mega-flattered). But then I inexplicably "lost it" - and haven't gotten it back since. Argh!!

[wonderwoman]

I have a tendency to tilt my chin up slightly. I see myself in pictures and in the dance studio mirrors, I'm thinking, why is my chin or nose always pointed slightly upward?

I realize it's because I've worn glasses all my life, and contacts only in the past two years. So even if I'm not wearing my glasses I have that upward tilt... My dance teacher must have noticed because he told me yesterday, my nose and chin and sternum should all be lined up. That looks better when dancing, but glasses wearers will know that if you do that you see the top edge of your frames.

Any suggestions how to adjust this habit (that is, not to do it when not wearing glasses)?

[jwlinson]

Might be how one wears glasses too. I've noticed that tendency more with people who wear their glasses further down the bridge of their nose. I'm nearsighted, and I wear mine further up, so I don't tilt my head up.

[dbk]

I always imagine a string tied to the back of my neck, pulling backwards. That should put the weight of your head in the right position, but it might also point your chin way too far down. Then you just have to reposition the tilt of your chin. Your chin/jawline should be parallel to the floor (if you're a guy), which actually feels like it's tilted up (according to all the guys I've seen do it). It looks much better that way, though.

[Benjy]

That's actually quite unusual from what I've seen. Most dancers (in latin at least), have a tendency to drop their chins at least slightly. I've seen a good number of championship dancers who have yet to correct this.

It may well be that what looks unnatural to you is in fact ideal. Your gaze should be directed slightly upward, at least from all the coaching I've received. On the other hand, if you really are looking up, I would focus on the back of your neck, and think about it upward into the base of your skull. I feel like that would have a tendency to correct the problem.

[wonderwoman]

That's actually quite unusual from what I've seen. Most dancers (in latin at least), have a tendency to drop their chins at least slightly. I've seen a good number of championship dancers who have yet to correct this.

It may well be that what looks unnatural to you is in fact ideal. Your gaze should be directed slightly upward, at least from all the coaching I've received. On the other hand, if you really are looking up, I would focus on the back of your neck, and think about it upward into the base of your skull. I feel like that would have a tendency to correct the problem.
That sounds about right. Good idea.

Thanks, Mod. Couldn't figure out the right phrasing there.

[Josh]

Stand up and take the middle finger and thumb of your right hand and reach up to the back of your neck, and lightly place them on either side of your neck. Slide the fingers upward until they hit resistance; this will be at the base of your skull. This part of your skull is called the occipital bone. Continue to pull upward against this bone. This should have the feeling of stretching your spine upward. Allow your body underneath to hang loosely and fall underneath. This is the correct head position, and it should feel like your neck elongates along with your back.

[Chris Stratton]

I realize it's because I've worn glasses all my life, and contacts only in the past two years. So even if I'm not wearing my glasses I have that upward tilt... My dance teacher must have noticed because he told me yesterday, my nose and chin and sternum should all be lined up. That looks better when dancing, but glasses wearers will know that if you do that you see the top edge of your frames.

Any suggestions how to adjust this habit (that is, not to do it when not wearing glasses)?

The engineer in me is tempted to say modify a pair of glasses to put the viewable area where you want your default head position to be, and wear those around for a few weeks ;-)

[wonderwoman]

Would it be a bad idea to wear my glasses and focus on the top edge of them, or try to look just over it. *shrug*

[Dance808]

Would it be a bad idea to wear my glasses and focus on the top edge of them, or try to look just over it. *shrug*

You mentioned you have contacts also -- can you start wearing your contacts most of the time and just wear glasses to give your eyes a break in the early mornings/evenings?

I wore just glasses for about a year and noticed how I carried my head was changing so I went back to contacts for the majority of the time and the problem is gone.

[danceronice]

Geez, problems I wish I had. Even when my chin is up I get nagged at to keep my eyes up. If my gaze is directed upward I'm told my eyes aren't open wide enough! (This is Smooth Pro. Apparently I haven't looked down enough with my Rhythm Pro that he feels he needs to say something.)

[Angel HI]

Stand up and take the middle finger and thumb of your right hand and reach up to the back of your neck, and lightly place them on either side of your neck. Funny, I was going to post this; got busy; and am only now returning. Only I was going to add to make a comfortable yet toned L with the thumb and index fingers of the right hand. Place the thumb into the stoma (that little dented area at teh base of the larynx and between the collar bones), and the index finger under the chin. This gives the feeling of placing the head not only up, but back onto the spine.

[wonderwoman]

You mentioned you have contacts also -- can you start wearing your contacts most of the time and just wear glasses to give your eyes a break in the early mornings/evenings?

I wore just glasses for about a year and noticed how I carried my head was changing so I went back to contacts for the majority of the time and the problem is gone.

They bug the heck out of my eyes! I wear them when I get dressed up only. Glasses for work.

[and123]

Then wear neither. It's not like you're the one driving when you dance :p

[wonderwoman]

This is true. lol

[waltzguy]

But I have to drive when I dance. That's okay though, my glasses apparently help my chin up, which is good for a man in Standard. :p

[Dance808]

But I have to drive when I dance.


cute. :)

[DanceAngel]

Would it be a bad idea to wear my glasses and focus on the top edge of them, or try to look just over it. *shrug*

You could always take your glasses to glasses store (don't know the correct term for it) and have them adjusted so that they sit higher on your nose. If the place knows what they are doing then they should be able to adjust them higher without actually changing the placement of where they sit on the nose.