Rise and Fall in Waltz, Foxtrot and Quickstep

[DanceMentor]

I wanted to take the time to pass on something that I learned incorrectly as a beginning dancer that took me years to overcome in hopes that this may help others learn the right way.

First of all, "Rise and Fall" is backwards :!:
Instead, it would be better to say "Fall and Rise".
There are so many people out there who learn to rise through 2 and 3 in Waltz. Here is basically what the ISTD syllabus say. I think I remember this verbatum, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Down on 1. Commence to rise at the end of 1. Continue rising through 2 and 3. Lower at the end of 3.

There is one word that cant get enough emphasis. Down on 1.
I invite you to carefully watch some of the pros dancing the Waltz and you will see they really get deep into the knees as they step into the one beat, creating incredible momentum that carries them through the 2 and 3 beats. By really using the 1 beat, they literally travel two to three times as far without this intense lowering action with the resulting follow through.

This same principle pretty much applies to the first slow in Foxtrot or Quickstep.

Hope this helps. :D

[Vince A]

DanceMentor,

Granted, the Waltz venue that I do the Waltz in is not ballroom, albeit they say they are getting closer and closer to ballroom each year as rules are updated and judging gets tougher!

I agree with everything you say, but trying to get it in my mind as you wrote . . . and have a question . . . you say "Down on 1 . . ." It . . .

If am already deep into my knees before 1 . . am I not there at 1? If we took the count and made it 1, 2, 3, &1 . . . am I there? Or we could count it as "heel, toe, toe" and we still would be down on 1???

DM, I'm not challenging you . . . I'm hoping to get the right Ballroom style eventually, and feeling somewhat Waltz-challenged lately. Looking to you for more help on this . . .

I keep getting training (besides from my Pro) in Waltz . . . from a Ballroom teacher, and she contradicts what I've been previously taught . . .

[DanceMentor]

Don't worry about challenging me, Vince.
That's a good point that I overlooked--"Lower at the end of 3."
Often in International Standard students are taught to start with a prep step (for example, starting on the 3 beat in Waltz). And yes, most of the lowering takes place at the end of 3. You don't just suddenly drop on 1!

Thanks for pointing out this essential point that I should have made in the original explanation. And I think my main point is still quite strong, which is: it's the lowering action that can make or break you, NOT the rise.

[Vince A]

Ah, ha . . . When I'm taking privates with my Pro . . . I never hear teh 'rise,' but I always hear "L-O-W-E-R."

So I, 1000%, agree with you . . . I'm so focused on lowering, that I have a tendancy to lower in the wrong places . . . like in a chasse' . . . yea, I get yelled at for that too!

[msc]

That lowering stuff only works if you keep the hips "well under the body," as my instructor is want to say. You really need to tuck that tailbone.

[Vince A]

Oh yeah . . . I get that too! She says, "if you feel that you look stupid (to yourself), then you are probably doing it right.

She also wants me to 'pigeon-toe' my feet somewhat, then as I gradually do it correctly, my feet will be in the right position. I didn't ask why.

Ever heard that??? Is that straight ahead???

[msc]

You might have trouble walking forward with straight feet, and so she's overcorrecting to get your feet to line up. Usually you only pigeon toe if you lead a spin move of some sort.

[Vince A]

Hmmmmmm . . . now you have me curious . . .

Thanks

[pygmalion]

This is a cool website, which gives quite a bit of technical detail on rise and fall (or fall and rise, if you prefer! :D )

Check it out! :D (http://www.dancesport.uk.com/tid-bits/issue016.htm)

[smoothdancingirl]

That lowering stuff only works if you keep the hips "well under the body," as my instructor is want to say. You really need to tuck that tailbone.

I'm concerned when you say tuck the tail bone. Because my posture really got screwy after I heard people telling me this. Becareful that you don't end up rotating the pubic bone up.

[msc]

Be careful that you don't end up rotating the pubic bone up.

If you have sufficient stretch through the torso, and good center tone, I'm fairly certain you'll avoid an ungainly poise. I know there are some new ideas about connection and what not, especially on the smooth side, but I guess I prefer the old school standard approach of tucking the hips under the body and then slightly picking up your hips to you partner after you connect.

But now you have me curious. Do you pitch your hips in the direction of the rise, sdg? If not, how do you generate any swinging action without a preceding tilt of the pelvic area?

[smoothdancingirl]

Be careful that you don't end up rotating the pubic bone up.

If you have sufficient stretch through the torso, and good center tone, I'm fairly certain you'll avoid an ungainly poise.

True. I believe it.

I know there are some new ideas about connection and what not, especially on the smooth side, but I guess I prefer the old school standard approach of tucking the hips under the body and then slightly picking up your hips to you partner after you connect.

But now you have me curious. Do you pitch your hips in the direction of the rise, sdg? If not, how do you generate any swinging action without a preceding tilt of the pelvic area?

I've had coaches tell me this theory and I believe it, however I try not to think about what my hips are doing at all. I prefer to think of keeping my leg connected with my torso and my torso (excluding my top) connected with the man. But it all produces the same effect. And I think it's saying the same thing. It's just that in the past students, my partner, and I had ended up over tucked and created the osteoperosis look. So I try to not to say tuck the hips any more. Usually I say swing the leg through keeping the torso connected. :wink:

[msc]

Hmm.

Would you describe the "osteoperosis look?" I'm having a hard time visualizing that. Perhaps the knees are not pushing forward as the hips tuck?

[smoothdancingirl]

Hmm.

Would you describe the "osteoperosis look?" I'm having a hard time visualizing that. Perhaps the knees are not pushing forward as the hips tuck?

I would say it looks like an old man in high waisted pants. The hips are so over tucked the shoulders slump. :lol:

[DanceMentor]

I would say it looks like an old man in high waisted pants. The hips are so over tucked the shoulders slump.

I sometimes create this character as a joke for my wife. It never fails to create some laughter. :lol:

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
The Quick Step does have this Rise & Fall' Styling, and although it looks like the American Foxtrot, it is uniquely very different in many ways. I was proficient in FoxTrot for some five years before I took lessons in the Quick Step fromn two English National Champions, and I had the most difficult time making the necessary styling and technique adjustments for the Quick Step.
As I mentioned in a previous post concerning the similarities between the Lindy and the TTS were too negligible to have the same generic connection, many dances have similarities, but I think the similarities between the Foxtrot and the Quick Step are equivalent to the similarities between the Cucamonga and the Texas Tommy Rumboogy.
The Foxtrot, the New York Peabody, The West Coast Slicker Foxtrot and the Pasadoble' were all smooth flowing dances up until I left the dance scene in 1963: There was NO 'Rise & Fall in their styling.
And as for the Fall coming before the Rise? I have danced too many years to accept your premise that the 'Fall' comes before the 'Rise'. And Newton would agree with me that before you fall you must go up!
Black Sheep, 'What Goes Up Must Come Down', Wayne Newton ??? a. d.

[DanceMentor]

It's not about the chicken and the egg here...it's about people not using their legs. They are rising too much instead of getting low and really using their legs.

(That's interesting about those other dances)

[msc]

Actually, sometimes you can lower from an "Up" position, yet still remain on toes ("Up") after the lowering.

And sometimes you can rise from a lowered position, but your heels never leave the floor.



SDG-
Hmmmmmmmm. The shoulders really shouldn't slump forward when the tailbone "tucks" ... just the opposite in fact. Verrrry interesting.

[SDsalsaguy]

SDG-
Hmmmmmmmm. The shoulders really shouldn't slump forward when the tailbone "tucks" ... just the opposite in fact. Verrrry interesting.
Sounds like the hips aren't beimg isolated so that an overall crunching motion is what's ensuing... what think you msc?

[msc]

Well, since I'm not there, I can't really see, but usually if the shoulders slump forward, you need to pull up your ribcage, make sure the rib/hip stretch is maximum and the spine is stretched. But like I said, I'm not there so it's just a guess.

Usually you pitch the hips forward so that the back can become more parallel to the floor. The rumba "back stretch," and the samba roll come to mind.

[pygmalion]

The rumba back stretch? Huh? :?: :?

[msc]

pygmalion-
It's a move where the man and the woman stand side by side, man's inside hand on the lady's back, and both slowly stretch back, hopefully matching the sense of the rumba. The idea is to get the back as parallel to the floor as possible. To allow for a greater stretch, both will pitch their hips forward and up. Usually the woman does a better job of this, since she's usually much more flexible.

Maybe Jonathan has a picture in his collection.

[SDsalsaguy]

pygmalion-
It's a move where the man and the woman stand side by side, man's inside hand on the lady's back, and both slowly stretch back, hopefully matching the sense of the rumba. The idea is to get the back as parallel to the floor as possible. To allow for a greater stretch, both will pitch their hips forward and up. Usually the woman does a better job of this, since she's usually much more flexible.

Maybe Jonathan has a picture in his collection.
Hmmm, give me a day or two for things to slow down here and I'll start milling through my stacks... not sure if I have something to this effect or not though.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, msc. Sounds really beautiful! I'll have to ask my coach! :D

[pygmalion]

I think I found a reference to it on a Ron Montez gold level international rumba video. That explains why I've never heard of it. My video collection only goes up through silver. Hmm.