What is the Flying Lindy?

[DanceMentor]

Okay, so you've got the Lindy Hop, and Hollywood-style Lindy and Savoy-style Lindy. How did people coin the term "Flying Lindy"?

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
Good question. Last time I heard the word used was in the 1930's in Brooklyn when that was the common name for a fast kind of wild style of Savoy Lindy. I see semblances of it every now and then, Three dancers that come to mind are Brian Lee, Jeremy Oath, and Marshall Watson, three of our top ten WCS dancers. As far as I remember, it was a man's style of Swing dancing like the 'Freeze' is a lady's move or the hip twisting used by ladies..
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[Vince A]

Okay, so you've got the Lindy Hop, and Hollywood-style Lindy and Savoy-style Lindy. How did people coin the term "Flying Lindy"?
BlackSheep stirred the "brainwaves." I recall my Mom talking about the "Flying Lindy," and she is from Brooklyn and that era - late 30's early 40's. I can't ask her though . . . she's "Jitterbugging on that big dance floor in the sky!"

So, I think BlackSheep has pin-pointed the location of origin???

Some further research??? Maybe, yes???

[d nice]

Hollywood and Savoy are simply styles of lindy hop. The Flying Lindy has been said to be a different but related dance to the Lindy hop, a footwork variation to uptempo music, as well as simply a name used when you are doing any form of energetic Lindy Hop.

The Flying Lindy I learned in the late 90's from Martin Parker, it is a slotted version of the lindy hop swing out, sort of a fast eight count proto-West Coast Swing.

Leaders : Skip (L), skip (R), double skip (L)(L), skip (R), skip(L), double skip (R)(R) is the base footwork.

The followers reverse Left and Right above.

Breaking the dance down in writing is difficult. The skips are small kick-like motions with a small hop (just like when you were a kid). So a Left skip is a small "kick" with the left foot and a small "hop" on the right. On the double skips the "kicking" foot remains in the air between the two. The timing is the skip on the whole count the weight change after (depends on the music being played where in the space the weight change takes place).

[DanceMentor]

Is there still a rock step of sorts?

Otherwise, it seems like you are kind of replacing the triples with something faster. I've also heard of replacing the triples with singles when the music is really fast, but I'm not sure if you would call this Flying Lindy.

[Black Sheep]

Vince
The origin of the name, 'The Flying Lindy Hop was in honor of Charles Lindbergh's firs airplane flight across the Atlantic on May 22, 1927. I never knew what they called the Lindy before 1927, but Frankie Manning aught to know.
Although I was a wallflower until 1949, I was president of a teenage Social Cellar Club for two years where I saw and tried to learn the Lindy without success, and my Bear Trap memory still holds the visualization of those moves.
And D'nice I don't want to question your teacher, Martin Parker's rendition of the Flying Lindy in the 1990's, but Lindy dancers never skipped unless the were playing hop scotch. Lindy dancers of the 1930's and into the 1950's prided themselves with ultra smooth dance moves above all styling pointers. If Martin Parker is still alive, D'nice, I'd ask for my money back!
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Martin Parker was a student of Dean collins... Dean taught Martin. Hal Takier also does the flying lindy... with "skips".

[d nice]

There are lots of styles of lindy hop, some of them are quite "bouncey". The moves are lead smoothly of course as they should be, but smooth as in "gliding" type of effect is but a very narrow branch on the Lindy Hop style tree.

Not to mention skips that involve a great deal of momentum and revolve tend to be rather flat: long on the horizontal plane and low on the vertical the vertical plane.

Dance Mentor: switching to single steps and kicks is not necessarily the Flying Lindy. There are many ways to adjust one's Lindy Hop at faster tempos without using the dynamic or aesthetic done in the Flying Lindy.

[Black Sheep]

Flying Lidy buffs,
The Flying Lindy Hop (FLH) was a term used from 1927 to post WW II years in New York City. I never heard the term Flying Lindy used on the West Coast in tyhe 1950's and I met and danced with a lot of dancers that claimed they took lessons from Dean Collins, who usually apologized to me about their poor dancing. Although Dean was my Lindy Mentor since 1955 until a year before his death, I never heard him use the Term Flying Lindy, and Dean taught me everything he knew about swing not only by demonstration but observing him teaching in my studio for two years and taking classes from him in 1980 . Dean had a strange history; he came out top L.A. from New Jersey in 1932 or so and danced the Chain Studio Swing, so Flying Lindy probably wasn't even in his vocabulary, because only New Yorkers used the term FLH. During WWII I faked my Lindy dancing all over the country and never heard the term FLH.
There is another factor in Martin Parker's rendition of the FLH that belies his claim to knowing and teaching you the Flying Lindy, and that term that you use in your description above has 'EIGHT counts'; the term 'Eight' count Swing/ Lindy only came into vogue in the mid 1980's and Dean was already gone by then. And so how does Martin claim that Dean taught him an eight county Flying Lindy. Your theory is full of holes, not your fault D'nice, I was taken in by so called former Dean students until I saw them dance. I don't doubt that they might have taken a few lessons from Dean, but that definitely does not qualify them as an authority on Dean's dance techniques of the 1950's which were very different from his Chain Studio Swim of the 1940's. Hal Trakier did about every trick aerial existing in the 1940's and I know the man has integrity and he is honest about everything in his career. I've seen him dance in 1940's videos and up until a year ago. When you accuse Hal of hopping, you do him an injustice, Hal was then and is today, one very smooth dancer.
So the bottom line is: The term FLH was NEVER used in any form of Lindy before the Mid 1980's, unless it was used by a choreographer who needed a guide for his chorus of dancers to follow or by some teacher from Shamokin, USA.
D'nice I respect your knowledge, and your view points are just as valid as anyone else's including mine.
I hope these pearls I've shared with you are not lost or taken as criticisms.
After all, I was personally there in New York City up until 1946 and in Hollywood in the 1950's with the largest student body of ballroom dancers in Greater L.A.
No one expects you to doubt that your teacher took some lessons from Dean Collins.
One last bit of history: If Dean Collins taught all the people who claimed he did, Dean would have died a wealthy man.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

*sigh*

What a surprise.

I'm glad that at this point there is more than enough information already on this board that I don't have to go and pick this post of yours apart piece by piece.

What I will say is that anyone who actually wants to see authentic lindy hop should check out the various films with Whitey's Lindy Hoppers. If you are interested I can give you list of various films and documentries that contain clips of the dance. Once you see any one of these you'll understand and agree with my view of lindy hop. Guarantied.

[d nice]

It is possible I got Martin's credentials wrong. If you say he wasn't a student you can check Martin's credentials by talking to him. He operates a school in Costa Mesa. 2980 A & B McClintock Way Costa Mesa, CA. 92626 SW corner of Fairview & Baker 714-641-8688. I'm sure he'd happily answer any questions you may have.

[d nice]

So I've posted tons of verifiable resources that support my view on Lindy Hop... Joe why don't you cite some verifiable evidence that supports your point of view.

[Black Sheep]

Check my Credentials,
I finally figured out why someone thinks that the Flying Lindy was a hopping dance. The word 'Hop in Lindy Hop refers to Charles Lindburgh 'Hop' over the Atlantic.
And if someone doing the Lindy is 'Hopping' all over the place then they are just not accomplished smooth dancers. But the "Hop' in Lindy does not describe the dance style, it just describes Lindburgh's 'Hop' over the Atlantic.
As for naming names to verify my facts, the primary source is always the most authentic and reliable. And as for the Swing Scene in the 1950's in Hollywood, the primary source was, is and will continue to be the man who lived and earned his bread from 1949 until 1963 as a professional dancer, was 'JOE LANZA'. And you can't find a better 'PRIMARY SOURCE' for that place and era.
One more misquote by the Champion misQuoter:
I did not say Martin Parker never took lessons from Dean Collins; What I said was:

1) "There is another factor in Martin Parker's rendition of the FLH that belies his claim to knowing and teaching you the Flying Lindy, and that is the term that you use in your description above which has 'EIGHT counts'; the term 'Eight' count Swing/ Lindy only came into vogue in the mid 1980's and Dean was already gone by then. And so how does Martin claim that Dean taught him an 'Eight Count' Flying Lindy. Your theory is full of holes, not your fault D'nice. I was taken in by so called former Dean students until I saw them dance."
2) "I don't doubt that they might have taken a few lessons from Dean, but that definitely does not qualify them as an authority on Dean's dance techniques of the 1950's".
How in heavens do you manage to mis-read, misunderstand, misquote and misconstrue so often without ever thinking of apologizing.
Although, Martin Parker's rendition of the Flying Lindy Skip, I mean Hop, is not the Flying Lindy that I recall, the skipping, hopping breakdown that you described sounds like you have a new novelty dance like Chubby Checker's, 'The Twist'. If you video your new 'Skipping-Hopping' dance, I'll write a song for it and I'll be the first to order a copy. But we have to think of a commercial new name! Any suggestions out there?
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Joe you are not a primary source. What you says is completely at odds what the living legends of Lindy Hop say. It is completely at odds with all film footage of the dance. You provide no verifiable evidence to support your claims at all. None. When questioned you respond with something along the lines of I was there.

Sorry not good enough when dozens of people, with direct roots to the dance as done in Harlem in the Depression, directly contradict your statements. THEY are primary sources.

Lindy dancers of the 1930's and into the 1950's prided themselves with ultra smooth dance moves above all styling pointers.

Joe, what are your views on these clips? Anyone else also, would this Lindy Hop be considered to have "hop" in it?

ftp://209.236.120.33/notd.asf (short, with quick download)
ftp://209.236.120.33/moonball.avi (long, with big download)

These are from the Harvest Moon Championships which ran for 40 years and was one of the most recognized major competitions for Lindy Hop and other dances (Rock n Roll, Hustle, Waltz, etc.)
A HM website: http://www.savoyballroom.com/exp/notforgotten/hmbpre.htm

There is a fair amount of video available from the 30's to 50's, some choreographed, some social and some competitions. From those alone, not including testimonials from those around before the 1950's, the 50's dancers did pride themselves on ultra-smooth style. However, there were differences between them and those before that time span. Do you have any favorite videos from before the 1950's?

-FF

I never heard the term Flying Lindy used on the West Coast in the 1950's...

Although Dean was my Lindy Mentor since 1955 until a year before his death, I never heard him use the Term Flying Lindy, and Dean taught me everything he knew about swing...


Actually, there is a video of Dean talking about the Flying Lindy Hop.
ftp://209.236.120.33/dp.avi


...Flying Lindy probably wasn't even in his vocabulary, because only New Yorkers used the term FLH.


Fast forward to minute 3:33


There is another factor in Martin Parker's rendition of the FLH that belies his claim to knowing and teaching you the Flying Lindy, and that term that you use in your description above has 'EIGHT counts'; the term 'Eight' count Swing/ Lindy only came into vogue in the mid 1980's and Dean was already gone by then. And so how does Martin claim that Dean taught him an eight county Flying Lindy.

Hal Takier, who Dean says in that video is doing "Flying Lindy", is doing a primarily 8-count based pattern -- This was shot in 1982.

Related note, Dean Collins in this clip (minute 2:20) is shown dancing Lindy Hop in an 8-count basic pattern. This is a non-choreograph dance. If anyone would like footage of earlier work Dean did on film with 8-count basics I can give some links as well, although perhaps another thread is best.

-FF

[DanceMentor]

the term 'Eight' count Swing/ Lindy only came into vogue in the mid 1980's
Clearly the majority of the film footage before WW2 shows people dancing 8 count lindy circles. We've established this on many threads. If we are going to continue to discuss this issue we need some hard facts like films we can watch or direct quotes from other dancers of the period. That is NOT asking too much.

On the other hand, it's quite interesting you brought up the idea of Flying Lindy. I'm sure many people will watch the clips funkyfreak provided and learn more about this phenemenon.

It's OK to argue by providing evidence, which may include things like, "I experienced this myself", "take a look at this quote from Frankie Manning", or "take a look at this film footage".

It is NOT OK to say, "One more misquote by the Champion misQuoter".

Is it possible there was a bigger thrust toward six-count post-1950? Could that be where much of the confusion lies?

[d nice]

It's OK to argue by providing evidence, which may include things like, "I experienced this myself"

Yes. When you talk about your own experiences you need to remember that you are a single person. Your experiences as important as they are only reflect a small amount of what was going on even within your city. It is important not to assume that you personal experiences are representative of anything more than your experiences.

Is it possible there was a bigger thrust toward six-count post-1950? Could that be where much of the confusion lies?

I've talked about this in a couple of posts. The simplification of the music led to numerous changes in the dance. While some continued to refer to their dance by the name of that which it had morphed out of, it was most obviousely not the same dance.

[SDsalsaguy]

Actually, there is a video of Dean talking about the Flying Lindy Hop.
ftp://209.236.120.33/dp.avi Great "find" funkyfreak...sort of cleans up the whole mess in a few minutes flat, now doesn't it?

[Black Sheep]

FunkFreak,
Excellent questions.
I can only speak for myself and the dancers I trained or close dance friend, that dancing smoothly is not only difficult to develop, but aesthetically and euphorically creates a mood of effortless perpetual motion. The dance is an uninterrupted exhilarating experience shared with your partner.
Let me illustrate a revelation that started me on the Project of developing the Magic Pill with a story:
In the summer of 2000, I was standing on the sidelines watching some 1,000 dancers Swing dancing on the Satin Ballroom floor. Michael Pierceall standing along side of me asked, "Joe, what is the difference between these dancers and the dancers in your day?" It took me only a second to reply, "When I look out on this crowd of dancers, I see a lot of turbulence like choppy waters on an angry ocean. In the 1950's the crowd of dancers would be moving in soft smooth waves on a calm ocean." Three years ago, I used different words, but essentially the meaning was the same.
No matter what style of dancing you do be it WCS, ECS, Flamenco, Ballet or Salsa, if you can't move agile and smoothly with good body coordination, no matter how many tricky Swing combinations you can do, you can't be considered a good dancer. Min Vo is a smooth dancer and a model of the smooth style we used to practice ad nausea. I remember spending more hours on how to transfer my body weight smoothly than learning any number of dance combinations. One of or favorite practices was dancing or walking with a book balanced on our heads.
Is dancing smoothly worth all that practice time? It develops legs, coordination, and improves posture and a sense of balance, all faculties used in dancing or any physical activity be it tennis or Gymnastics.
As for Exhibition dancing in films, dancers are encouraged to exaggerate and clown it up. You can't always imitate what you see on the screen and assume that's how people dance socially. However, I personally never danced differently whether on or off the film shooting set. What you see me do in movies is how I danced elsewhere.
As for my favorite films: Besides 'Hell's A poppin' I think some of the best Swing dancing is on, 'Don't Knock the Rock', but there are only six couples that made the dance auditions, the rest are Movie extras doing some basic moves. If you can get a copy of, 'Cha Cha Cha Boom' Columbia Pictures 1957, you will see a variety of good Latin dancing. I have never seen the film myself, but the first three couples who were picked at the audition were students from my Hollywood Dance Club.
I might add that Swing movies of the 1940's were strictly WCS dancing. The films of the 1950's that I worked on had Lindy or Street Swing Dancers, but out of the 30 or so dancers, maybe three or four couples at the most danced the Savoy Style Lindy whiuch is closest to ECS in style. The couple dancing on the piano are protégées of Dean Collins who taught them at my studio for over a year.Gill Brady and Niklki Faustino were Dean's best products.
I don't consider myself a Dean Collins' product because I already had been dancing professionally for five years. What I did learn from Dean were the Savoy Lindy techniques which improved my Swing tremendously. But I am not one of those who claim, Dean Collins taught me how to dance!
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor

[Black Sheep]

Salsaguy,
Dean may have responded to a questions about the Flying Lindy, But I saw Dean dance countless times at my studio and in night clubs over an seven year period and again in the early 1980's, and I NEVER saw him dance the Flying Lindy style. And If Dean knew how to do that style, he certainly would have danced it and taught it, because the Flying Lindy is one beautiful style. And as D'nice misstated that it is a fast type of Swing... Sorry D'nice. the Flying Lindy Hop can be even more aesthetic at any tempo including slow speeds at 120 bpm.
I wasn't going to offer to describe the Flying Lindy for several reasons, one being I might be accused of advertising, but if anyone sends me the word, 'FLYING LINDY' by august 31, I will Email them personally the techniques for the 'Flying Lindy' which IS NOT an eight count dance or anything like D'nice explanation of his 'hopping skipping' rendition. The Flying Lindy is Smooth and graceful and the most exciting style of Savoy Lindy. I remember well what it looks like and I will break it down so anyone can learn it from the written word. The only pre-requisite is, you have to know how to use the 'Magic Pill, Lanza Six count teaching method.
Email the word, 'FLYING Lindy before August 31st and I'll Email you the Magic Pill for the Flying Lindy. <d.lanza@netzero.net>
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor

[SDsalsaguy]

I never heard him use the Term Flying Lindy, and Dean taught me everything he knew about swing...
Sorry Blacksheep, but obviously Dean did not teach you everything he knew about swing if you never heard him use the term since, as funkyfreak's link points out, Dean can be seen talking about the Flying Lindy Hop.

[d nice]

West Coast Swing? How do you claim that those dancers in the 40's were doing West Coast Swing, when it is obvious to any student of Kinesiology, professional or amature, that the dance they are doing is most closely related to the style of Lindy done by the Savoy Dancers. There is ample irrefutable evidence of this.

As to performannce dancing being different from social dancing.. there of course is a certain amount of showmanship that is going to come into play that could potentially change the character of the dance... however if they replace every instance of the basic step in favor of another (especially one which supposedly did not come into existence until the mid eighties) wouldn't you say they are doing a different dance?

Or is this why you call their dance WCS? Because it does not correspond with what you remember... Is there any chance that you might either be mis-remembering, or that what you were exposed to in the fifties was in fact an altered form of something that existed two decades earlier? Any chance at all?

[d nice]

Interesting... I see several couples bouncing, hopping, and skipping in the Train Platform scene in "Don't Knock The Rock". I also see the two most visible couples executing eight count figures, easily recognized as the swing out and the lindy circle. Hey... you know one of them is you! So perhaps you are unfamiliar with todays terminology (which is mostly derived from Frankie Manning, who says he uses the same names he did in the thirties and forties).

This would explain why you insist that a move you are so clearly executing in the 50's was an innovation of the 80's. What name do you call it?

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
In, 'Don't Knoick the Rock' I am the only Swing dancer in the scene on the train platform. Those other kids are ballet dancers who maybe had a half dozen lessons at Arthurt Murray.
I have a saying:
" You Can't Judge the Many by the Few" Joe Lanza. 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Sorry to say it Joe... but you and your partner are bouncing, hopping, and skipping as much as everyone else on that platform... I think your definition of smooth and mine might be different.

Should I point out that trying to walk with a book on your head actually forces your body into an unatural posture and gait, and that lindy hop in its vernacular or "street" form should endeavor to use natural motion as oppossed to ballroom styles which like Ballet which usually attempt to force the dancer to meet its sense of aesthetic.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
My partner had eight months training at that point. And if you see me bouncing, the air I was dancing on that day was slightly turbulant!
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[Black Sheep]

FunkyFreak,
I answered your questions twice, but someone keeps deleting my answers.
But let me be brief and try a third time.
There are three situations that mislead video viewers into thinking that they are watching authentic Swing/Lindy dancers or whatever:
1) Auditions are held very often by unqualified Swing Dancers. So what you see is not necessarily the best dancers. Friendships also enter into the Dance Director's choices during the audition stages or not enough good dancers are available since other film auditions or jobs may be in production and they take up the excess dancers. During WWII most of the good male dancers were in the service, So there were a few Draft Dodgers that had no competition during the auditions that got the jobs.
2) Dance contestants will do anything to attract attention or do anything spectacular to win, disregarding authentic dancing.
3) Many students imitated mediocre dancers the see on films, thinking they were copying professionals. Most dancers you see for five or ten seconds, would bore you to death if you had to watch them for more than those few seconds, because they are that limited.
Note: There is no substitute good training by qualified professional teachers. There is just so much you can learn by watching videos. The critical 'Techniques' that make the difference are not something visible like a styling. And Styling on one person doesn't always look or feel good on another. I am a firm believer in 'teaching yourself' after learning some good basic concepts.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[Black Sheep]

To all the above critics,
All the above critiques are certainly valid. My explanation for my discrepancies with most of the above is the following and I have stated this fact in several previous commentaries:
The great majority of Swing dancers in the 1940's up through the 1960's were Chain studio Swing dancers easily identified by the lady traveling on the Rock steps!
In 1954, I met Dean Collins who within a year began teaching at my studio where he eventually began showing me some new Techniques that he admitted he had himself begun to use recently, and that his dancing was very different and very much improved over the style of dancing he did in the 1940's. I was able to categorically verify Dean's style of dancing by visiting Irene Thomas. It was Jean Phelps Veloz of 'Swing Fever' and ' 'Groovy Movie' fame who introduced me to Irene.
Irene often danced with Dean in the 1940's and in 1950 Irene left Dean and L. A. to become a professional Dance Team in New York. If I need a witness, Jean was present when this conversation went on. Irene told me she went Swing dancing in Manhattan twice after her arrival in 1950, and thast the Swing style was so different, Irene called it terrible if I recall correctly, and she never went Swing dancing in New York City again after those first two experieces..
We three were in a Gymnasium at the time where Irene had been training a group of Senior Citizens dance routines for charity events. Irene in her 70's was still an excellent dancer. She played a Swing record and we had a dance session, I Irene following me, and I adjusted to her strict Chain Studio Style; she the led Jean, and eventually we discussed the style that Dean and she did in the 1940's and it definitely was WCS. And Jean herself was then and still is basically a WCS dancer. However Jean has no trouble following me when I dance the strictly Savoy Style techniques I learned from Dean because Jean is a 'dancer' who can follow anyone no matter the style; that scenario took place in Ojai, Ca in 2001.
Now let me take you back to 1950's: Dean never would admit who taught him how to dance but tells a story that Mary Collins can verify, since she was present when Dean told me this story. 'Dean and Mary were out dancing in L.A. area. After the dance, a man approached Dean and said, 'You dance just like someone I used to admire dancing in the Savoy Ballroom, but his name was 'so and so'". Dean replied, 'That used to be my name, but I changed it." Dean told me this story in 1981.
Now this will shock many Dean fans; but Dean's students in the 1954 onward, when I knew him never had enough students to make a living. He always had another job install;ing security devices or what have you. In the two years he taught at my studio he may have been teaching elsewhere also but his schedule was never more than 10 teaching hours a week.
Dean's elite Group of Swing dancers that he taught or had a strong influence could never have been more than 50 dancers. BUT and a big BUT, his dancers almost always won the Swing contests and made the auditions for film work. Dean's Group may have been miniscule in tyhe 1950's compared to the overpowering Chain Studios that proliferated the L.A. area, but Dean's dancers was the Elite Swing dancers of the 1950's. And my Hollywood Dance Club was the only studio that taught these Savoy Lindy=by Techniques;l Thanks to Dean Collins.
So all these statements Dean made in the 1982 interview have no bearing on what I say about my experiences in the Hollywood Swing Scene of the 1950's. We were a very small group, but we were by far the best dancers, thanks to a Master Teacher who happened to be more than my Savoy instructor but a friend and personal mentor.
And Dance Master, with all due respect, Constantly misquoting me in derogatory manners is more harmful than name calling. Maybe apologizing for blatant misQuooytesd should be in your Guidelines. Just a friendly suggestion from,
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Joe... West Coast Swing is not identified as the follower coming forward on the "rock step". There is ample footage of dancers at the Harvest Moon Ball and social dancing at the Savoy that shows the follower doing everything from traveling forward to staying in place all on the "rock step". As a matter of fact there is ample footage of leaders not rock stepping on the "rock step".

I know you don't think video tape footage is a reliable source... which I find extremely humorous considering you love to talk about your appearance in movies and your dancing in it. Luckily we still have many dancers who danced at the Savoy Ballroom to show us, tell us, and teach the dance they did there. I'm going to have to go with their version of what is and is not authentic Savoy Style Lindy Hop.

The very use of the name "Savoy Style" is questionable when what you describe is at odds with the way they danced in the 30's and 40's and 50's at the Savoy Ballroom. Unless of course you are refering to the Savoy Cafe or one of the other establishments that used the Savoy name, several of which were out here in CA.

Revisionist history is easily identifiable. I don't think that is your purpose. I do think that you have a very set experience with swing dancing, and are unable to come to grips with the fact that there is much about lindy hop you don't know. There is much everyone doesn't know, myself included. Swing dancing has been going on for ninety years. It is impossible for a single individual to know everything.

[DanceMentor]

Joe, are we talking about misquotes or differing interpretations of your original intent?

A quote would involve putting something in quotation marks and crediting you with saying it. If this is the case, please specify your original quote and the misquote (appearing in quotes) and we'll take care of the problem immediately. If it's a matter of interpretation, why not restate your intent so we can better understand?

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
I have caught at least a half dozen misquotes by another poster. And these were blatant misquotes. I should have notified you directly, but I assumed, obviously wrongly, that you were reading all the commentaries. These misquotes are easy enough to pick up. Just go to my commentaries where I make those corrections and back track to the post just prior to mine.
If the misquotes were harmless, it would not matter, but when the misquote gives the opposite impression of my original statement...then it does matter. An instance where he takes my sentence and leaves off the last words, ' he lived in New Jersey' is taking a statement out of context, and although this is not a 'Misquote' per se', it does diminish the sense of the full sentence. I used the word 'Never' only once in all my commentaries because I 'never' did hear Dean Collins mention the word Flying Lindy. And "I" never did see him dance the Flying Lindy and I doubt if anyone else ever did.
Dean Collins had a lot of talents; He was a hell of a tap dancer, which no ever mentions, and He told me he knew all the Ballroom dances,. which I never doubted his word, and his Shim Sham was by far the smoothest, most tightly knitted choreographed rendition ever, that makes even Peter Loggins', one of our best Shim Sham dancers, look lack lustered in comparison. Dean had a lot of talented facets of Lindy Dancing, but he never mentioned or did the Flying Lindy in MY presence or on any Videos I've seen of him Dancing.
I do have an audio tape of Dean talking which was made around 1970's, and in it he states that all these different names for Swing dancing are basically the same as the Lindy, but he never mentioned 'Flying Lindy'. I'll make a copy for you shortly. I am in the midst of moving, an horrendous job when one has books and photos and manuscripts and documents from news papers that go into the untold thousands. So it might be a while before you get a copy of that tape.
Incidentally, I figured what the 'Texas Tommy Swing ' is: It's a standard Texas 'Square Dance'. The San Fracisco 1907 headline that reads, 'Texas Tommy Swing' was too long for the page so they just chopped of the ending, ' OUT' from the word 'SWINGOUT'
The 'Texas Tommy Swingout' goes something like this at about 180 bpm:

TEXAS TOMMY SWINGOUT
words & music anonymous
"Take your partner by the arm,
turn her around until she falls on the ground,
Pick her up and do the dozy doe as you turn about,
And that's how you do the Texas Tommy Swingout."

If you go to the Texas University of the Performing Arts, they probably have some back issues of the music sheets.
Just tell them Joe sent you. And you can 'Quote' me on that.

Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[DanceMentor]

Black Sheep,
There is a big difference between misquoting and misinterpreting. In the case of misinterpretation, we can usually adress that here in the Dance Forums. Simply explain your case again so your intent is clear to all. If someone is "quoting" you incorrectly, it needs to be removed. I've already dealt with one such situation that was somewhat of a judgement call.

In the future, please use private messages to a moderator or the misquoter. This is what everyone else is using and you need to do it too.

I'm actually breaking one of the Dance Forum guidelines as I write this. Issues concerning moderation need to be discussed using private messages, not on the public forums.

Note the "PM" at the bottom of every post and the link to check messages near the top right part of the page. It's just like using email.

Thanks,
David

[Black Sheep]

Lindy Lovers,
I have offered to give the breakdown for the Flying Lindy a week ago, and only a dozen responded by sending me the Email with the word, 'Flying Lindy'.
There was no catch when I promised to deliver the Magic Pill, which I did just prior to June 31 before Camp Hollywood annual event.
Now I offer the secret breakdown to the authentic Savoy Flying Lindy and only a dozen respond. The cut off date is September 1 st. only a few days left for a dance style that is almost a lost art. And I" guarantee you, if you got the Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching method, the Flying Lindy is a piece of cake.
Send me the word, 'Fyling Lindy', and you will get the simple Magic Pill instructions that will put you ahead of the best Lindy dancers in town.
Email the word 'Fyling Lindy' to <d.Lanza@netzero.net>
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

[d nice]

Joe read the Texas Tommy Thread. I cite several resources that will answer your questions.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
First of all, the main issue if anyone recalls, was 'How the Lindy get it's name?' I cited Charles Linburgh as being the source. Now how and Why are you even bringing up this 'Texas Tommy Swing'?
If you want to know what most Swing historian give as the source of Lindy, it started in New Orleans as a Funeral Procession March by the Creoles who were hired for those occasions, and the march became the dance that eventually came to the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem.
If you really want a research project, find out the Original name of the dance before it became known as the Lindy Hop.
And why, if you are so interested in Swing, why haven't you sent me the word, 'Flying Lindy' for my Breakdown of the Flying Lindy?
Black Sheep, the Flying Lindy Link.

[pygmalion]

Black Sheep,

I don't know whether you realize what a wonderful resource you are. I, for one, have learned so much from the articles you have posted. I wasn't around to witness the origins of swing, but my parents introduced me to the good stuff -- Benny Goodman, Louis Jordan, and lots more. That's why I value you. You can tell me how things were before swing was even on my radar scope. Please share your knowledge. :D

Thanks for all your postings.

pygmalion

[Black Sheep]

Pygmalion,
How *******ing to receive an affirmation of what I am committed to do: redress the inaccuracies about who did what, where, when and how.When I returned to the Dance scene after a forty year absence, I felt like a time capsule of the Hollywood 1950's being reopened for people like you, so that Golden Decade of the dance scene could be vicariously shared.
It was a time when anyone could walk into the most exclusive night clubs for free of a cover charge of a two drink minimum and bump into Errol Flynn on his way out, or have Judy Garland sitting at the next cocktail table laughing at some story Tony Martin just finished, and have Nancy Sinatra in your audience on a Saturday Matinee at Ciro's on the Sunset Strip while I was teaching my original Bossa Nova Dance on stage.
And there always was a dance Venue going on at least one a night featuring everything from Swing Contest, to Show Casing Talent to dancing to Tito Puente, Eddy Cano, (My Mambo Favorite) and big bands like Rene' Touset and Latin combos like Jack Costanza, the only band leader who played the bongos. Hollywood was truely glamorous and the stars were very friendly and down to earth.
Every day was an adventure in an Alice Wonderland, with euphoria flowing wherever you went.
For me personal;my it was a mixture of heart aches and ecstasy, disappointments and successful accomplishments.
But at the time, one forgets to smell the flowers, and so my advice to youth beginning a new adventure is, "The getting there is often more fun then arriving at your goal, so enjoy those precious moments along the way. And if you see a pretty flower, don't pass it up without saying, 'Hello!
Black Sheep, your friendly

[d nice]

D'nice,
First of all, the main issue if anyone recalls, was 'How the Lindy get it's name?' I cited Charles Linburgh as being the source. Now how and Why are you even bringing up this 'Texas Tommy Swing'?

Funny, when I look back at the posts Texas Tommy seems to be addressing a completely different issue. Nice try at obfuscation but the posts are still there for all to check.


If you want to know what most Swing historian give as the source of Lindy, it started in New Orleans as a Funeral Procession March by the Creoles who were hired for those occasions, and the march became the dance that eventually came to the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem.

Really? Who? Name them and provide a means to contact them. I've yet to read a book, see a documentry, or talk to a single person who says this. The strut (the name for the dance the second line drum majors do) has no direct connection to lindy hop at all. If you think it does please give us some references that we can check.


If you really want a research project, find out the Original name of the dance before it became known as the Lindy Hop.

Already done Joe. If you read the posts I had written on this forum (and Yehoodi prior to your departure) you would know that this has alrweady been discussed.


And why, if you are so interested in Swing, why haven't you sent me the word, 'Flying Lindy' for my Breakdown of the Flying Lindy?
Black Sheep, the Flying Lindy Link.

Because I know the Flying Lindy. You have yet to provide any information that makes me think that what you have to say is relevant to the style that is generally known as Flying Lindy.

If you want me to add to your growing list of contacts I am going to have to say no. I'ver already seen how you then use the numbers of people that inquire after information to try and add some credibility to your arguments. If you were truly interested in sharing your knowledge to the betterment of this forum and the swing community you would simply post it like I have always done. Why not stop with the self-promotion and just share with class?

[d nice]

Pygmalion,
How *******ing to receive an affirmation of what I am committed to do: redress the inaccuracies about who did what, where, when and how.

LOL. Joe you deny things Savoy dancers confirm in relation to their own style. Redressing inaccuracies does not mean promulgating new ones.

When I returned to the Dance scene after a forty year absence, I felt like a time capsule of the Hollywood 1950's being reopened for people like you, so that Golden Decade of the dance scene could be vicariously shared.

Point of order... the early 40's was the Golden Age of Swing Dancing. There were more dancers, more Swing Bands and more media attention than at any other point in history.

...and have Nancy Sinatra in your audience on a Saturday Matinee at Ciro's on the Sunset Strip while I was teaching my original Bossa Nova Dance on stage.

If we want to discuss your Bossa Nova why don't we move to the Ballroom or general dancing forum. That way we can stay on topic when I ask about some of the stuff I've researched concerning it. I'm actually interested in a number of things about it.

[Black Sheep]

Flying Lindy curios,
I do want to share my knowledge of the Flying Lindy with the largest group possible and I gave 5 reasons why and I should do it on the DKTR thread!
Now I will give a 6th reason for sending it out to those who ask for it via Email by simply sending me the word, 'Flying Lindy' before October 1 st!
6) I am concerned and desire to know who actually is interested in and who receives the breakdown for the 'Savoy Flying Lindy'
for my personal records. Since I am giving it freely, I assume this privilege.
Since you seem so anxious to have me post my 'Flying Lindy Breakdown' on Dance Forum, D'nice, can you answer this Question: "Why?"
Black Sheep, your friendly Flying Lindy instructor.
<D.LANZA@NETZERO.NET>

[Swing Kitten]

From the Don't Knock the Rock Thread... hopefully it will have a happier home over here.

...With due respect, what makes you think I would care to share my knowledge of the Flying Lindy with some individual who thinks it's a Hopping Skipping dance.
I share more authentic and original information on dance and the dance history of the Hollywood 1950's than all the people you can mention. And I do it freely!

just interesting

And you say we seem to have the same concept but using different 'Terminology'.

I'm not saying that you have the same concept... I said that you two could be describing different dances. I was meaning that that the possiblity may exist that this may not be an insurmountable issue! (pardon the double negative) That it could be a surprisingly small stumbling block... however, I'm begining to see the pointlessness of my optimism.

The reason I put my offer out in so 'CUTE' a way is for several reason:.
1) When I put it out, I want to share it with as large a number of students and teachers at the same time so no individual has an advantage over other interested dancers and teachers.

I thought the method to be perfectly acceptable! I though it was intersting, fun, and involved. Please don't take offense to me calling it cute! I think it is! But I in now way mean anything nagative or demeaning by that term. However, if that's your reasoning, I have to say that just doesn't make sense.

It's like advertising for an event by posting a flyer not about the event but about directions to the infromation booth where one may pick up the flyer about the event. (forgive the use of slight exageration to more clearly illuminate the point, but to me, that's about as much sense it makes)

So are you 'holding it in reserves' for it's proper unveiling? Are you not wishing to make it 'public' yet? Then why have it available at all? I guess I'm not seeing the advantage of partial public. And if the goal is to make it available for the world at the same time then having people individual ask for it seems... ... not goal oriented. I have absolutely no problem with having people e-mail you the magic words... and I'm not suggesting that you 'should' post your Flying Lindy-- it's not like I'm trying to weasel out of the effort involved to send an e-mail!

2) When a significant number of dancers get the same breakdown, then there is less chance of the Flying Lindy being modified to the point of confusion and corruption and eventually lost in the maze of various interpreters' renditions and therefore being disassembled for posterity

Yes, and I believe we all know how nice it would have been if some prominate authority in swing had done this in the 40's. But I guess a major question here is that how can we be be sure that what you are doing is not 'modified' for you are one of the 'various interpreters' believe it or not. The tricky part is that of course most interpreters do not think that they are modifying to the point of confusion. So I already know that you will say you are not modifying... that your interpretation is 'pure'-- and of course you would think so, understandably, to not think so would indicate a touch of malice that I know full well is not accurate of you or your intentions.

We are dealing very much with something that has survived much like an oral tradition... is that a bad thing? While on one hand I completely understand the desire to maintain the dance's authenticity but on the other hand (there's always two it seems!) I see it much like I see people who breed dogs. The dogs were bred for very specific purposes that they are no longer required to fulfill but millions of dollars are spent maintaining the integrity of the breeds (which were greatly man-made to begin with) in the whole "dog show world" that exists by and for itself. Dance still fills it's purpose the way nothing else can, but overall, how much does it REALLY matter? for real! Does it feel better to dance exactly the way they did then? One of the great things about it is that each person is invited to put their own twist on it. It's encouraged... that's part of the point even... expression! But I suppose it is a different story when it comes to teaching. I completely see the importance of understanding the roots for reference and appreciation. Completly... I'm not offering a solution here... I'll have to think about it more (I'm also a Gemini... can you tell?)

One last Question Swing Kitten: 'Why are both you and your friend asking me to share my knowledge of the Flying Lindy exclusively with you and your friend, but you won't mail me the word 'Flying Lindy?'

Umm... I'm not! If I wanted the exclusive inside track I would email you the magic words and try to convince you to not share it with anyone else. When did I do that? What is exclusive about posting information on a public forum? I am not asking you to post it. You've lost me here. I may have asked "why not post it?" being that your stated goal was to spread the word... this is not the same as asking you to post it.

??...my friend...?? I'm not in 'cahoots' about this with anyone that I'm aware of.


I'll extend the deadline to October 1 st,

Thanks Joe! :lol: I really hope you don't mind me calling it cute... but, to me, IT IS. 'hur-ry, hur-ry, hur-ry!' Thanks, it's very enjoyable!

I am not fighting you, Joe. Although I'm not sure if you are fighting me. I enjoy reading your stories... your personal experience is very different than mine... for that I value it.

edited only for blatent grammatical errors that I would not personally live with

[Black Sheep]

Swing Kitten,
I never said or implied you were in Cahoots with anyone.
My only objection to your entire text is simply, the implication that you make EQUATING me with anyone else.
And I have had others try to Define me and classify and equate me with other Swing dancers.
My credentials go beyond being a Swing Dancer.
Much of what I have contributed on this forum has been lost because of unwarranted adversarial comments that confuse or avoid the issues I put forth. It's unfortunate for those who would have benefited. Now the Flying Lindy, much to my surprise, already seems to be a lost art, and my attempt to share this knowledge, IN MY WAY is being criticized.
Tell me why?
Black Sheep, the last of the Flying Lindy pundits.

[Swing Kitten]

I never said or implied you were in Cahoots with anyone.
ok
My only objection to your entire text is simply, the implication that you make EQUATING me with anyone else.
I did not think that I was, but since I came across that way to you I apologize for that, it was not my intent.

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
When you opened this thread, I expected a band box full of instructions and/or definitions for the Flying Lindy, but nothing came up even resembling the authentic Flying Lindy that was as common as a Coney Island Nathan's hot dog during my teenage years in New York City.
But strangest phenomenon of all was, when I offered to give the breakdown of the Flying Lindy, less than a dozen were interested enough to send me the word 'Flying Lindy'. But stranger than anything else was the fact that no one out there knows the breakdown for the Flying Lindy except me, that is unless no one else is willing to share their knowledge except me. I gave my reasons for being 'cute' about the deadline of September 31. I was hoping someone would beat me to the punch, but some six weeks have past and no one has come up with the answer of 'What is the Flying Lindy?'
Am I sitting on a National Treasure?
Black Sheep, holding the blueprints for the FLH.

[d nice]

No, there are lots of people who know the Flying Lindy... just apparently a different form than the one you remember. A number of dances had multiple names, and a number of names had multiple dances associated with them.

There are few Lindy Hop instructors on this board, and while there are more lindy hoppers on the board there still aren't lots yet. We're still growing.

Looking at this thread, I see lots of answers and knowledge shared from various people. Two pages filled with Flying Lindy discussion (and one filled with off-topic discussions) makes "no one else is willing to share their knowledge except me" to possibly be a sort of insulting comment for the many people who posted in here.

In the interest of further discussion and curiousity, what do all of you think of Flying Lindy? Did you get a chance to see the clips (before they werre moved offline), or see it in person?

-FF

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
If you know so many people who know the authentic 1930's Flying Lindy, why don't you name them? There is one good friend of yours, Frankie Manning that could support you!. Why not ask him?
Black Sheep, the Keeper of the Lindy Records.

:?:

-FF

[d nice]

Actually last time I asked Frankie about it a couple of years ago, he said it was a name refering to lindy hop styling. He'll be here in two weeks, I'm moderating a talk with him, at the Sacramento Swing Festival.

I'll ask him again though. Better yet I think I'll see if I can get a lap top and let him read this forum and see if he has any comments to make... depends on how much free time we have.

No promises.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
You said many teachers that you know, can do or teach the Flying Lindy? Now you tell me you have not spoken to your good ol' pal Frankie for a couple of years? And now you'll see if he can get a Lap top? And you'll be monitoring him in Sacramento in a few weeks? And then you will ask Frankie about the Flying Lindy...agasin? And what else?
I thought with all those people in the Swing crowd you mention as your good friends, in your 200 plus posts, that you'd overwhelmed me with Flying Lindy Hop experts. And now you put me on 'hold?
I can't say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed.
What if I should die tomorrow? I'm 80 and going down hill fast. What will become of the Lost Flying Lindy after I'm gone?
I feel like I'm carrying a very heavy responsibility for the future of the Flying Lindy!
Black Sheep, wishing I had a Magic Pill for the Flying Lindy!

[d nice]

Interesting tone you have here Joe. I don't suppose you would be willing to dump the condescending attitude and just ask your questions? You're much more likely to recieve a polite response.

D'nice,
You said many teachers that you know, can do or teach the Flying Lindy? Now you tell me you have not spoken to your good ol' pal Frankie for a couple of years?

I actually see Frankie about every two months or so. Despite us being friends. We both have busy schedules. I travel about 15 weeks out of the year, Frankie travels about 45 weeks out of the year, as much as I'd like it we aren't always in the same place at the same time. We are bound by contractual obligations and the desires of various promoters. I've recently had a death in the familiy and another relative who is very ill. I've unfortunately had to op out of a gig I was very much looking forward to because of it. I'm doing the best I can to keep in touch with friends, but I do have other things going on in my life right now that are a bit distracting. Please forgive me.

And now you'll see if he can get a Lap top? And you'll be monitoring him in Sacramento in a few weeks? And then you will ask Frankie about the Flying Lindy...agasin? And what else?

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was going to try and get a lap top for him. He won't be staying at my apartment, I don't have the room for him since I moved.

I'm not monitoring Frankie. He isn't some senile old man who is going to wander off if someone doesn't watch out for him. I'm moderating a talk about the history of lindy hop.

Yes I will ask him about the Flying Lindy again. Since apparently the answer this Savoy Dancer gave last time seems to be at odds with what you say is the real deal. Maybe he was wrong or misunderstood the question, "What is Flying Lindy?"

I thought with all those people in the Swing crowd you mention as your good friends, in your 200 plus posts, that you'd overwhelmed me with Flying Lindy Hop experts. And now you put me on 'hold?

Joe, some of these are social friends, some are professional friends, some are friendships that have grown out of mentoring. While I keep in touch with them, I don't call them everyday. We all have lives outside of swing dancing as well as professional commitments within the swing world that prevent regular communication. I could call Frankie now... but it isn't worth the long distance charges when I'm going to see him in a couple of weeks.

I can't say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed.

At what, that I have a personal life outside of teaching and lecturing? I'd be surprised and disappointed if I didn't.

What if I should die tomorrow? I'm 80 and going down hill fast. What will become of the Lost Flying Lindy after I'm gone?
I feel like I'm carrying a very heavy responsibility for the future of the Flying Lindy!
Black Sheep, wishing I had a Magic Pill for the Flying Lindy!

Joe I would hope you wouldn't die tomorrow. Think if you passed on and your version of the flying lindy was lost forever because you wouldn't post it to Dance-Forums. I thought you had a breakdown for the Flying Lindy based on your Magic Pill? You should get to work on that next.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
You have already cautioned me with several personal messages in one afternoon about not mentioning my books or not saying anything that cans be construed as being commercial or you will place my posts in Siberia, the classified adds where no one is apt to benefit by it.
I no longer feel free to write in my free flowing stream of consciousness since your friendly cautions. I definitely want too Share any knowledge I have that might benefit society. That is why I became a credentialed teacher out of UCLA. It may sound old fashioned and a bit trite, but I believe in 'Serving' without monetary rewards if able to.
I not only learned how to dance for free, but Frank Veloz actually paid me $20.00 (in 1950) a week for 8 weeks to enter his Teachers Training class. If you doubt this, ask Jean Phelps Veloz. She was at the same studio as Frank Veloz's dance partner at the time.
What I can't understand is why would anyone want to demean my efforts to help increase the Swing population. And I do it gratis!
Black Sheep. please do not shear my fleece!

[DanceMentor]

Still at it, huh? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Maybe we can get Frankie Manning to post. That would be a gas!
Any chance that could happen? Or maybe we could get a recording. I could certainly make it playable on the Dance Forums.

d nice, if you are going to be hosting a talk, maybe we could start a thread called the top 5 questions for Frankie Manning, let people submit and take the top 5 chosen my the Moderator Team.

When we get the answers, we'll post them.

Just an idea...

[MissAlyssa]

that would be really cool!

[d nice]

Joe you are welcome to share your information on flying lindy. We want everyone to feel comfortable asking questions, sharing information and opinions. My cautions are just that, cautions.

We want to encourage active discussion, in the appropriate forum, of all things regarding dance.