Studio non-fraternization contracts, protecting whom?

[Gator]

I was wondering what's your take on the subj. First time I've heard about it was 2-3 years ago, I wasn't even dancing, but friend of mine went with his wife to take classes and the studio made both of them to sign the contract. The explanation was "it's being done to protect customers" ??? Protect married couple from what? Doing threesome with their teacher?

Later, wherever I went, they had little bit different policy, students didn't have to sign anything, but the teachers had to sign the same contract, no dating with any student in that studio. I've asked why, the answer was different too - to protect the teachers. I know one more studio, with the same rules, and reasoning, protect the teacher.

So, what is it about, protecting whom? Techers? Students? Both? It's a kind or rule that beggs to be broken I think. Just for the sake of it.
Protecting teachers? If the student is a weirdo or a maniac and goes after that teacher I doubt that'll help, rather a police matter, otherwise how is that differnt from everyday life, no is no, you don't need a contract to tell no to someone from your eveyday life, do you?. Then what? Protect the teachers from themselves so they don't get excited and go dating every single student in the studio? Dunno, doesn't sound convincing. Those teachers are adults after all, not underages.

Manager in #1 studio, the one "protecting" their customers with this contract mentioned that they've had customers buying expensive gifts for their teachers, then get upset, etc... That sounds rather like protecting customers vallet ;) Which leads to the conclusion that at least in that case studio didnn't want customers money spent on something else. I guess they were worried about the sales of various packages they had to sell to those "victims".

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear opinions. Do teachers really feel protected somehow by signing that piece of paper? Or students feel more safe? May be it's all nonsense? Do those stidios have specific reasons?

[pygmalion]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is this. Who is demanding all these non-fraternization contracts in the first place? Studios. And that's who stands to benefit. Studios are protecting themselves from legal liability if a student/teacher relationship goes sour. Bottom line.

And, I agree. It's a rule that begs to be broken, and, I'm guessing, gets broken regularly. Let's face it. Dancing is physically intimate, and from time to time, the boy/girl thing is going to get in the way.

[pygmalion]

On second thought, your idea about studios preventing students from spending money on things besides lessons bears more consideration. A couple of years ago, when I left a job I had at the time, the first question my former teacher asked was what my significant other did for a living. What a self-interested sleazy guy he was. The only thing he cared about was whether I could buy lots of lessons from him. And to make it worse, he was a mediocre teacher, at best!

I'm not going to beat a dead horse, so check out the thread on franchise experiences. My experience was quite bad.

[DanceMentor]

I had a student come in to take the introductory special, which was 4 half hour lessons. On the second lesson, while I was holding her hand, she was lightly caressing my wrist with her fingers. I couldn't tell whether she was doing this subconciously or on purpose. Either way, I couldn't stop wondering what was going on.

Our studio had a policy that forbid teachers from dating students. This especially applied to private lesson students. Sometimes they would "look the other way" if the student was only enrolled in group lessons. Dating a student who was taking private lessons was strictly prohibited.

On the last lesson it was time to sell her a program. I expressed concern when she told me the private lesons would be difficult to fit into her budget. I told her that maybe group classes might be a good start and then she could add private lessons later. When she got done writing a check for a month of group classes, I asked her out to dinner.

We have been happily married for 3 years (and known each other for 4½ years). :D

[MissAlyssa]

I have had to sign this "non fraternazation" paper/contract. I believe it is protecting the studio. From what I get out of it the studio doesn't want the students to get all obsessed with the dance instructor or think that they can hang out with them all the time outside of studio events or what have you. (not saying students are crazy/obsessive etc etc). I also think it has something to do with the studios not wanting instructors to "steal" aka take the students with them if they decide to leave that studio. Everyone knows the turnover rate. Also, you can't pay special attention to one student over the rest and give them special privledges which you might be inclined to do if you were dating a particular student.

My two cents 8)

[Gator]

The only thing he cared about was whether I could buy lots of lessons from him.
Well, I guess that's rather "studio spirit" :( In that regard they're worse than car mechanics. At least in my experience.

Dating a student who was taking private lessons was strictly prohibited.

We have been happily married for 3 years (and known each other for 4½ years). :D
Because its a lot more money with private lessons, no?
Cool that it worked out well for U though ;)


I have had to sign this "non fraternazation" paper/contract. I believe it is protecting the studio.
Never thought of legal aspect of that, but I guess somewhere it's true. Though mainly I believe it's because of money. Otherwise they'd just say it's for our protection, why to come up with BS like protecting clients or teachers...
Everyone knows the turnover rate.
You mean teachers?

Also, you can't pay special attention to one student over the rest and give them special privledges which you might be inclined to do if you were dating a particular student.
Might be true for group lessons, but doesn't apply to private lessons I assume.

[pygmalion]

DanceMentor,

I'm so glad you posted your reply. I think the trick is knowing when to follow the rules, and knowing when to ignore them. I'm glad things worked out for you and your former student/wife. God bless you both.

pygmalion

[MissAlyssa]

Quote:
Everyone knows the turnover rate.

You mean teachers? Yes I mean teachers.

Quote:
Also, you can't pay special attention to one student over the rest and give them special privledges which you might be inclined to do if you were dating a particular student.

Might be true for group lessons, but doesn't apply to private lessons I assume. No, I mean in general you should never give special attention to one student over another. You should try to treat everyone the same. We all know it's not easy and doesn't always happen but you should at least try to keep it that way.

[pygmalion]

I also think it has something to do with the studios not wanting instructors to "steal" aka take the students with them if they decide to leave that studio. Everyone knows the turnover rate.

MissAlyssa,

I think you have a point here. The studio I used to be affiliiated with made teachers agree not to contact their former students for two years after leaving the studio's employ.

I also think that these agreement may be related to protecting the studios from sexual harassment claims. Sadly, I had to study sexual harassment law for a course once, and wow, companies can really be hung out to dry if they don't protect both their employees and customers from any appearance of harassment. That's why most companies, not just dance studios, have some sort of written policy.

[MissAlyssa]

What made you study harassment law?

[Gator]

Quote:
No, I mean in general you should never give special attention to one student over another. You should try to treat everyone the same.
Well, you're a teacher, you know better. Except if you're dating doesn't that mean you're not treating that person as "everyone"?

P.S. And I am not sure how this "treat everyone the same" works with private lessons, I thought the point was to get more "individual" instruction vs. group.

[DanceMentor]

I'd like to also point out that as a teacher you are constantly in the spotlight. I remember I went through a phase where I probably dated 4 or 5 girls over about a 4 month period. These were not students, but they were dancers. You should have heard some of the comments that people made about me behind my back.

You'll have to take my word on this, but I was not going around sleeping with all of these ladies, but that is what people were perceiving. Because you are around multiple members of the opposite sex in a way that all but a few would only dream of, people tend to talk. This talk can be very destructive to a teacher's reputation.

A similar situation occurs with receiving gifts from students. Students start to believe you are showing favoritism toward certain students when you accept gifts. Also, it is easy for people to think you are taking advantage of your students even when the student is giving out of the kindness of their heart.

No fraternization policies definitely have their place! :)

[Gator]

I'd like to also point out that as a teacher you are constantly in the spotlight. I remember I went through a phase where I probably dated 4 or 5 girls over about a 4 month period. These were not students, but they were dancers. You should have heard some of the comments that people made about me behind my back.
I don't think in that situation it'd make any difference whether you were a dance instructor or a jet pilot. Regardless of your job people will always talk, of course, none of their business how many girls U date per month, but that's the way things are.

A similar situation occurs with receiving gifts from students. Students start to believe you are showing favoritism toward certain students when you accept gifts. Also, it is easy for people to think you are taking advantage of your students even when the student is giving out of the kindness of their heart.

No fraternization policies definitely have their place! :)
Funny, but at least those I know about don't really mention gifts.
Anyway, how does it help? After all if you're dating a girl U can give/receive all the gifts you want without publicly declaring those at the studio ;)

[DanceMentor]

Funny, but at least those I know about don't really mention gifts.
Anyway, how does it help? After all if you're dating a girl U can give/receive all the gifts you want without publicly declaring those at the studio

I was more referring to teachers accepting gifts from students, in general, not from a boyfriend or girlfriend.

I don't think in that situation it'd make any difference whether you were a dance instructor or a jet pilot. Regardless of your job people will always talk, of course, none of their business how many girls U date per month, but that's the way things are.


Even though it's none of their business, it's prudent to exercise some level of discretion. In addition, I've gotten in some weird spots where students were showing up to dances and all I wanted to do was be with my date. There are some awkward situations that can arise as a result of fraternization, so just be careful.

[Spitfire]

I know that there are strict rules forbidding student - teacher fraternization, but was not aware of any contracts regarding such. I never was presented with any for the private lessons I took.

Now, I'm not thinking of asking any staff members out for a date, but I wonder how that rule applies to people who just attend the open dances and are not taking any lessons or group classes.

[MissAlyssa]

Quote:
No, I mean in general you should never give special attention to one student over another. You should try to treat everyone the same.
Well, you're a teacher, you know better. Except if you're dating doesn't that mean you're not treating that person as "everyone"?

P.S. And I am not sure how this "treat everyone the same" works with private lessons, I thought the point was to get more "individual" instruction vs. group.

Well that's the point. No fraternization would mean no contact with the students on a private basis WHATSOEVER so dating would be out of the picture.

Regardless of whether the student is doing a private lesson of a group lesson they will be treated the same as the other students. I think you are thinking I mean treat them the same way as in "at the same level". Of course not. We 'treat' the more advanced dancers differently than the beginners because they don't need the really really really focused attention that a person that say doesn't even know a waltz box does.

[MissAlyssa]

I know that there are strict rules forbidding student - teacher fraternization, but was not aware of any contracts regarding such. I never was presented with any for the private lessons I took.

Now, I'm not thinking of asking any staff members out for a date, but I wonder how that rule applies to people who just attend the open dances and are not taking any lessons or group classes.


No no, the non fraternization agreement is signed by the teachers and studio staff. The students only ever hear about it if it comes up. Ie: a student invites you out to dance (non studio related trip) or over to their house for a BBQ. That's when the staff politely refuses and let's them know why.

[pygmalion]

A studio I went to actually posted the policy on the wall.

... After one of the teachers got engaged to one of their best customers, and she, Mom and Dad left the studio! :shock:

[DancingMommy]

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear opinions. Do teachers really feel protected somehow by signing that piece of paper? Or students feel more safe? May be it's all nonsense? Do those stidios have specific reasons?

Well, my perspective comes from being on both side of the fence as a student and as well as a teacher.

The franchise I studied at was very strict about teachers not even dancing with a student if they happened to meet out at a club by accident. It bordered on being almost gestapo-esque and rude.

As a teacher, I've had studios where fraternization was not even addressed and some students tried to take it a little too far. I've also worked at studios where fraternization was addressed and it was no big deal.

I think it is more of a legal liability thing. If a student has a crush on Teacher A, and reads more into it than there is, a policy such as that can be a help. I've actually seen this happen. One teacher colleague of mine was really diswraught whena student kept coming on to him and trying to get him to date her. This person had issues though. :?

Many studios feel that instructors who date their students are going to be "giving away the store" and so forbid it on the grounds that they'll lose money. I can see the persepctive, but if a student would rather date their teacher than pay for lessons, so be it. Besides, I'd feel like a prostitute if I was taking money from my husband to teach him (another reason I don't teach anymore).

[Sagitta]

Actually there are similar spoken/unspoken contracts/policies for grad student TAs/undergrads, profs/grad. students....I think they serve well as guidelines, but it does happen. Being in the academic world I've met quite a few grad student TA/undergrad, grad. student/summer research undergrad student, prof./grad. student pairings.

[d nice]

Non-fraternization contracts are not to protect the teacher or the student, but to protect the studio.

[SDsalsaguy]

Ok, I managed to stay away from this the first time round, but here it goes...

Non-fraternization policies are – and as per d nice’s point – studio policies. They exist because they are in the studio’s interests. Now does this mean that teachers and students both never avail themselves of such policies? Of course not. It provides an easy “out” when one party or the other either can’t or doesn’t want to make the distinction, i.e. letting an instructor remain friendly in a lesson while providing a non-alienating means to decline personal advances. In most situations, however, such policies are just part of larger marketing strategies and gimmicks…instructors can now be *very* friendly, and assert personal investment, concern, and interest but hide behind the policy.

I know that I was far more naïve when I first started dancing and exactly such tactics were used and, I hate to say, worked on me. I honestly felt like I mattered to my instructor, not just my checkbook.

[pygmalion]

Yes, SD. A lot of people have been really hurt by the games played by unscrupulous dance instructors and other sales people. :cry: This isn't related to romance, but I have an old friend who truly loved her dance instructor -- bought him and the rest of the instructors elaborate lunches every Friday, bought hundreds of lessons simply at his request. She treated him like a son. And of course, because of the studio's policy, he always managed to keep her at an arm's length. I'll never forget how he left the studio. He went to all his students, begged/manipulated them into buying more lessons from him on Friday. When we all came back from a holiday break the next Tuesday, he had quit suddenly without so much as a goodbye. No one felt hit as hard as my friend. She thought he really cared about her. But he didn't care about her at all. Just the money he could get from her. It was awful.

[SDsalsaguy]

Wow Jenn, that really is awful!

[DanceMentor]

I hate the idea of anyone buying 100 lessons. It's just not necessary.

[pygmalion]

At my former (franchise) studio, no one was ever even offered less than fifty lessons at a time. Generally, the best customers would buy 50 to 100 lessons per sales campaign, or more if the studio came up with a "special offer." Remember the FTC guideline about overlapping contracts? That tactic was used all the time.

Now, I buy lessons ten at a time, and that's only because my coach offers a 10% discount for buying them in tens. And I do mean a real discount. He charges the same as the going rate for all the independent instructors in town, minus 10%. A good guy. :D

[LauraB]

This policy is also incase a student and teacher are dating and break up, the student would most likely stop taking lessons at that studio, and there goes a customer. It also prevents some jealousy (not that a lot doesn't remain) between students. Most students fall a little in love with their instructor, and there does have to be a line drawn to protect the instructor as well as the studio, hopefully without hurting students' feelings. The same thing with accepting gifts from students. Students tend to think they own you, you owe them something other than lessons if expensive gifts are given. It gets too personal. On another subject, Most of our lesson programs are over 100 lessons, depending on the student's level and ability. At my previous studio (a franchise) we never sold more than 50 at a time, and never corresponding to a level of dance. When it's planned out in detail, large programs make a lot of sense--you know exactly what you're going to get out of it, and what you'll learn by the end of the program.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. That's some good food for thought, LauraB. And not to be difficult, but I've seen some teachers try to play it both ways. One the one hand, they encourage students to develop that emotional attachment in order to get them to buy more lessons. Yet they hide behind the nonfraternization policy to protect themselves from students' emotional attachments. Wouldn't it be easier to just not encourage those attachments in the first place?

True, many students develop affection for their teachers for lots of reasons -- time spent together, the intimacy of the situation, the student's unfulfilled emotional needs from their personal lives. But teachers know that, don't they? I'm sure it's talked about in the studios' planning meetings. Teachers aren't naive in that respect, but I think many students are. So I think teachers bear a heavier responsibility to keep their behavior in check and protect the students, not just themselves. And that goes beyond written policies to personal integrity. Policies can't cover that.

What do you think?

[pygmalion]

Oops. I guess I was in a bad mood this morning. That came across a little strong. My bad. :oops: Maybe I was a little unfair to teachers out there. Ther ARE lots of bad guys out there, but there are also many, many reputable and conscientious teachers.

[emanuela]

I had a student come in to take the introductory special, which was 4 half hour lessons. On the second lesson, while I was holding her hand, she was lightly caressing my wrist with her fingers. I couldn't tell whether she was doing this subconciously or on purpose. Either way, I couldn't stop wondering what was going on.

Our studio had a policy that forbid teachers from dating students. This especially applied to private lesson students. Sometimes they would "look the other way" if the student was only enrolled in group lessons. Dating a student who was taking private lessons was strictly prohibited.

On the last lesson it was time to sell her a program. I expressed concern when she told me the private lesons would be difficult to fit into her budget. I told her that maybe group classes might be a good start and then she could add private lessons later. When she got done writing a check for a month of group classes, I asked her out to dinner.

We have been happily married for 3 years (and known each other for 4½ years). :D

WOW!!!!! :shock:

[DancingMommy]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:

[emanuela]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:
... are you the former student/wife? :shock:

[SDsalsaguy]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:
... are you the former student/wife? :shock:
:nope: :nope: :nope:

[dancin_feet]

The non fraternisation policies at my studio are quite strict, but have been bent and even broken at times with nothing said. There are other times however I have heard that students and instructors have been asked to leave because the rules were broken. I guess it comes down to whether the studio owner knows about and approves the break beforehand or not.

All it says on the students contract is a brief paragraph about not fraternising with the instructors. The instructors though I believe have it spelled out in their contracts, to the point that they can't associate with any student for six months after they have left. I think even teaching dance privately is not allowed for six months either. It's even preferred that there are always two instructors present at the studio, though through illness and other unforseen circumstances, that has been broken a couple of times.

I have no problem with it. I'm prepared to live within the rules, but I also take advantage of the opportunities to socialise with the instructors that are legitimately offered. I don't want them to think they are just a teacher to me. I want them to know that I appreciate what they do for me, but also I realise they are people too that just may not want to dance ALL the time. Other students expect to get a dance at these social functions and sometimes I see the instructors just going through the motions when they would much rather be sitting down and using the time to socialise with people they wouldn't normally be able to socialise with.

[love2swing]

I have also been on both sides of the fence. As a student, I became close to my instructor. We hung out outside the studio a couple times a week. It was fun-- and we were just hanging out as friends. He never mentioned it to his boss and neither did I. Now I work at that same studio, and I'm thankful for the policy. I have several students that I think have some interest in me more so than friendship, and I'm glad that I have that to fall back on so I don't need to hurt anyone's feelings.

[twnkltoz]

The first studio I worked at was owned by a woman who had previously owned AM's. She had a non-fraternization policy in the teacher's contract. No student contract. She said it was because if your students got to know you too well, they wouldn't respect you enough to learn from you anymore. She wouldn't even allow me to tell students anything about my personal life...my age, my family, nothing! When I gave my notice, she insisted that I tell my classes that I was going on a long, wild vacation. Uh...don't you think they're going to ask about that? I refused to lie.

The studio I work at now has no such policy. In fact, one of the teachers is currently dating a student. No one seems to care.

[amrimi]

I think this topic quite interesting. In Germany such a policy would be against the law because employers are not allowed to tell their employees what they can do in their private lives. The only exception is reletionships beween teachers and school students because they are mostly underage (coming of age at 18 here) and are in a special dependable situation. Right now there is a big scandal over here because Walmart is trying to impose their US-policy on their employees which says that relationships among employees are forbidden. This policy violates constitutional law ovr here.

[squirrel]

Besides, I'd feel like a prostitute if I was taking money from my husband to teach him (another reason I don't teach anymore).

Why? If you were, say, a seller of sailboats... and your hubbie wanted one boat, wouldn't he come to you to get it? And wouldn't he pay for it???

[DancingMommy]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:
... are you the former student/wife? :shock:
:nope: :nope: :nope:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :)

I just used to work there is all. I ran the front desk, lol!

[DancingMommy]

I have also been on both sides of the fence. As a student, I became close to my instructor. We hung out outside the studio a couple times a week. It was fun-- and we were just hanging out as friends. He never mentioned it to his boss and neither did I. Now I work at that same studio, and I'm thankful for the policy. I have several students that I think have some interest in me more so than friendship, and I'm glad that I have that to fall back on so I don't need to hurt anyone's feelings.

When I was a student, I became close to my teacher's godfather (a fellow student). We used to hang out a LOT since we lived fairly close to each other. The rub came when teacher would show up unexpectedly at his godfather's house.... I would generally beat a hasty reetreat but even THEN it was a problem with teacher's boss. UGH. She was NASTY to me about it. Even after he QUIT.

[DancingMommy]

Besides, I'd feel like a prostitute if I was taking money from my husband to teach him (another reason I don't teach anymore).

Why? If you were, say, a seller of sailboats... and your hubbie wanted one boat, wouldn't he come to you to get it? And wouldn't he pay for it???

Of course he wouldn't. :) The chicken gets the road for free. He already paid for it, lol! And he just keeps paying and paying, lol. The chicken gets perks I tell ya....

[MacMoto]

When I was a student, I became close to my teacher's godfather (a fellow student). We used to hang out a LOT since we lived fairly close to each other. The rub came when teacher would show up unexpectedly at his godfather's house.... I would generally beat a hasty reetreat but even THEN it was a problem with teacher's boss. UGH. She was NASTY to me about it. Even after he QUIT.
Did the studio boss have any problem with the teacher fraternizing with his godfather, I wonder? :roll:

[alemana]

that german law makes so much sense. because of the way lawsuits have proliferated here in the US, you have this explosion of blatantly intrusive 'rules' and legislation - all this in a country supposedly founded on the sanctity of personal liberty.

[pygmalion]

No such luck in the US. Did anybody besides me see the blurb on MSN yesterday about getting fired for your personal life? Actually, there was no new story. But they did compile a list of people fired over personal issues recently -- the famous smokers case we talked about here in another thread, and several others.

In the US, people can get fired for all sorts of dumb reasons, and it's up to them to sue or get a new job. In the long run, it's probably easier and cheaper to just get a new job. Besides, who wants to work at a company where you can't put a politically oriented bumper-sticker on your car without getting fired, for example? Not me. :?

[ReneeJoan]

"In Germany such a policy would be against the law because employers are not allowed to tell their employees what they can do in their private lives."

I think I'm moving to Germany. They've got the best tango dancers in the world there, anyway.

Freedom of speech, religion, press and assembly, "the pursuit of happiness," due process, the presumption of innocence all seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle somewhere. Culture, a sense of refinement, a sense of history -- these are European social and cultural values. American Idol and The Apprentice seem to be the epitome of American culture. That and "supersized" fries.

I'm packing my bags.

[dTas]

all these rules... for the most part they don't apply if you are a honest moral person. but its the dis-honest, im-moral person that takes advantage of a good situation that breaks the system for all of us.

people who belive that its all about them and what they can get from everyone else. :x

and then when someone gets hurt they want retribution... they don't realize that "it takes two to tango".

in a perfect world there shouldn't be "non-fratrinization contracts" but we don't live in a perfect world. and there are a lot of less than mostly perfect people out there.

[Laura]

"American Idol" was originally a very successful British TV show called "Pop Idol." So don't blame the Americans for that one. No the nadir of American pop culture was super-crap like "Joe Millionaire" and "Bachelorettes in Alaska". And I watched them both, so I know from first-hand experience :)

Anyway, I think dTas has hit the nail on the head with what was just posted.

[amrimi]

"In Germany such a policy would be against the law because employers are not allowed to tell their employees what they can do in their private lives."

I think I'm moving to Germany. They've got the best tango dancers in the world there, anyway.

Freedom of speech, religion, press and assembly, "the pursuit of happiness," due process, the presumption of innocence all seem to have gotten lost in the shuffle somewhere. Culture, a sense of refinement, a sense of history -- these are European social and cultural values. American Idol and The Apprentice seem to be the epitome of American culture. That and "supersized" fries.

I'm packing my bags.

Sorry to have to disappoint you but this "Big Brother is watching you" mentality which is developing for some time now in the US is starting to swap over the Atlantic. Only this week there was a law passed that abolishes the banking confidentiality (hope I found the correct term). So now every government instution (Tax authorities, social welfare, federal student loans ... etc.) can ask the banks to see your accounts without any specific reasons.

[ReneeJoan]

Oh, pooh. Just when I saw libertee, egalitee, et fraternitee waving to me on the horizon.

I guess I better just lie back and let Wal*Mart put an electronic tracking dot on my skin and enjoy it.

[Larinda McRaven]

I think the rules are there to protect everyone.

When I first started teaching, I would see one of my students hanging out on my university campus near the building where I spent the majority of my hours. It was kinda creepy. Then one day he was mowing my lawn when I came home. Then I saw him in a nightclub and quickly introduced him TO MY BOYFRIEND. He proceeded to corner me and tell me that with all of the money he was spending on lesson he could easily take me out to a really nice dinner instead.

That studio did not have a no-frat contract. But when I told my boss about it, she quickly told me that I could say I had signed a contract not to date students. It was an easy out for me. He was assigned to another teacher immediately. I think he only lasted for a few more lessons before he disappeared. Good riddance.

Another student used to bring me roses on the anniversary of our first lesson. He bought me expensive gifts for my birthday or Xmas. I told him the gifts were nice but quite unneccesary, and that they kinda made me uneasy. He said it was just a way to show his appreciation for all I do for him. Pretty much everyone else just looked the other way. I felt completely alone and unable to find help. Again there was no formal contract anyone had signed. And several teachers at that studio did date and marry students. But one time the staff and a few students were out at nightclub and he cornered me and told me he would go on the Cruise that the studio was selling...IF there was something in it for him. WHAT? :shock: Funny thing is, boyfriend at that time, was there too. (What is it with these guys trying to pick me up in front of my boyfriends?)

BAM! I put an end to that. I told him in no uncertain terms that there was NOTHING between us except teacher and student. I told he him needed to find a different way to drive home at night, since the route he was taking lead him past my house. And I was certainly was more than willing to find him a new teacher. He is to this day is a very loyal and good student. He got his act together and learned that there is a line that cannot be crossed. And now I only recieve a card and a small gift certificate on Xmas. And I like it that way.

And NO it was not about him conserving his money so he could buy more lessons... it was about me not having to deal with a student crossing the line and giving me the creeps.

Even though all of my students understand our line, we still recieve invitations everyday to do activities with them. "Come to my house and go swimming this summer"... "Let us take you to Brunch on New Years"... "We are having a cocktail party, for my friends and family, please come"... "Come to my retirement party". It is non-stop.
And only under the most of extreme circumstances will we accept an invitation. One student had breast cancer and wanted to throw herself a party before she began treatment. Another really long time (8 years) student of Steve's was moving. We went and had brunch at her house before she left. Other than that we simply don't have time and energy to attend and be "friends and family" to all of our students. Yes we enjoy them as students (or they wouldn't be on our schedule at all) but if we attend one "friendly" function we are obligated to attend them all.

Anyway these are reasons it protects ME.

Now how does it protect the STUDENTS?

There is a teacher that I used to work with that slept with TONS of students. Then they would all go crying to our boss that he was being unfaithful to them. If we had a no-frat contract this could have been avoided. Unfortunately our boss expected us to all be grown ups and take care of our self and keep our pants on. But it just wasn't working. Women were lining up like sheep to sleep with this guy. And he was loving it. But these women were miserable. They felt used, and boy were they nasty to each other. One time a student (not sleeping with him) went flying into our bosses office to complain that the teacher was too "excited" after his last lesson and she refused to have her lesson with him. It finally came to a head when he started sleeping with a 17 year old student.... this teacher is well into his late 40s. The other students threw a fit. He finally was fired.

Now imagine all of that chaos and turmoil could have been avoided if we just would understand that there is a reason for us to keep a professional distance.

And yes ultimately it does protect the STUDIO by providing a healthy friendly atmosphere where teachers and students alike can attend without the negativity and jealousy that so often goes hand and hand with blurred lines. Who wants to go to a studio where the teachers are hitting on you, or who wants to teach a student that is stalking past your house on the weekends. And what student wants to go to a studio where other women are catty and name-calling?

But some people just don't get it and need to be given clear rules/contracts to abide by. That way we ALL ARE PROTECTED from getting hurt.

[cl5814]

Thanks for explaining everything so well, L.

[SDsalsaguy]

First, BRAVO Larinda!

All of the issues you mention are real and important! The problem that I have seen is that in *some* circumstances, certain instructors/studios use deliberately emotional selling tactics but then run and "hide" between non-frat clauses. Which doesn't negate any part of what you say, of course, just points out how non-frats can be misused as well... :(

[Larinda McRaven]

Sure I see that.

It was ok for me to accept the students gifts... until I get to wierded out by it, then the clause was there for me use as I saw fit. :wink:

I do see the opportunity for the rules to be used for less than ethical means. But the stereotype that studios and teachers use it soley for their benefit or for studios to mainpulate teachers and students is rather unfair.

Some people (teachers and students) need these rules otherwise it is a free-for-all. (and I have seen some scary situations!!!) Basically these rules are needed for greener teachers and students. Learn the rules first, break them later. Since later on as teachers and students move on to become more self-sufficient and independant they have generally had time to establish themselves and their boundaries, learning how to avoid the pitfalls that come with unwanted attention.

We all speed when it suits us. But that doesn't mean the speeding limit is a bad thing or that it is only there to give money to the town when you are caught. It is there to protect everyone. And everyone bends the rules sometimes.

[DancingMommy]

When I was a student, I became close to my teacher's godfather (a fellow student). We used to hang out a LOT since we lived fairly close to each other. The rub came when teacher would show up unexpectedly at his godfather's house.... I would generally beat a hasty reetreat but even THEN it was a problem with teacher's boss. UGH. She was NASTY to me about it. Even after he QUIT.
Did the studio boss have any problem with the teacher fraternizing with his godfather, I wonder? :roll:

let's just say she tolerated it because the godfather came first and brough teacher to the studio as a guest who became a trainee and then a no-experience needed teacher.

[SDsalsaguy]

Great follow up Larinda, you won't be getting any arguments from me!

[DancePoet]

I had a student come in to take the introductory special, which was 4 half hour lessons. On the second lesson, while I was holding her hand, she was lightly caressing my wrist with her fingers. I couldn't tell whether she was doing this subconciously or on purpose. Either way, I couldn't stop wondering what was going on.

Our studio had a policy that forbid teachers from dating students. This especially applied to private lesson students. Sometimes they would "look the other way" if the student was only enrolled in group lessons. Dating a student who was taking private lessons was strictly prohibited.

On the last lesson it was time to sell her a program. I expressed concern when she told me the private lesons would be difficult to fit into her budget. I told her that maybe group classes might be a good start and then she could add private lessons later. When she got done writing a check for a month of group classes, I asked her out to dinner.

We have been happily married for 3 years (and known each other for 4½ years). :D
Nice story DM! :)

Did you ever ask her about those light caresses on the wrist? ;)

[DancePoet]

And *I* remember the day she walked into the studio! :lol:
... are you the former student/wife? :shock:
:nope: :nope: :nope:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :)

I just used to work there is all. I ran the front desk, lol!
Well, there must be a good story behind this. Is DM the one that can tell it or is there someone else? ;)

[DancePoet]

Besides, I'd feel like a prostitute if I was taking money from my husband to teach him (another reason I don't teach anymore).

Why? If you were, say, a seller of sailboats... and your hubbie wanted one boat, wouldn't he come to you to get it? And wouldn't he pay for it???

Of course he wouldn't. :) The chicken gets the road for free. He already paid for it, lol! And he just keeps paying and paying, lol. The chicken gets perks I tell ya....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is cute DancingMoomy. :D

See tsb, another reason to beware of chickens. ;) :lol:

[DancePoet]

Oh, pooh. Just when I saw libertee, egalitee, et fraternitee waving to me on the horizon.

I guess I better just lie back and let Wal*Mart put an electronic tracking dot on my skin and enjoy it.
Well, I was going to stay away from this, but I didn't start this hijack, so ...

I'll still take America. Granted, justice in our country can be very slow, but eventually it does happen more often then not. Our process of government in America is one of slow and deliberate change to protect against radical change. And this is permeated out into our businesses, non-profit groups, and social communities as well.

However, I can't stand it when I walk into a Barnes & Noble or CVS or whomever, and they ask me if I have a membership card (or whatever it is they call it) to track my purchases. I pay full price to protect my privacy and that's what I tell them. Those that have seen me enough have stopped asking, thank goodness.

And then there is the movie theater folks that tell me for a dollar more I can get twice as much ... if I wanted twice as much then I would have asked for it. ;)

(DP, be careful, this is a thread on fraternization policies.)

Ayuh, I know.

[DancePoet]

Larinda, I like how you covered all your bases. Yes, the rules are there to protect the teachers and the students, so perhaps there is not just a self interest by the studios in protecting themselves, and I'm glad the rules can protect both. And since the studios are protecting their own interests first, then that would include protecting their customers as well, and if they keep this in mind, then the rules can be used appropriately.

On another side note, it is good that you didn't adhere to your own personal rules about the "friendly and family" events with everyone. Because dancing is such a social and intimate activity, it almost seems like part of the business to associate with your customers. The bonds that are formed through dance are meaningful to your customers, and at the same time you are correct in being picky and choosy with your time. I suspect you explain, and I'm sure it can be difficult, your appreciation for their invites, and take them up occasionally, but not just everyone of them from every student all the time, and let them know this. If you are truthful with them and sincere, they will understand. Leaders, like you in any community, are always juggling their time and responsibilities to the community with their private time, and I know this isn't easy, and there will always be someone who doesn't take it well, but do what you can without overdoing it. I don't say this critically of you and Steve, I'm really trying to relate it and review it to share my understanding because I've experienced it from a similar perspective, and perhaps it will help in some way.

[Larinda McRaven]

No DP I didn't take your post as critical. And heck if I can't weather people taking pop shots at me... I certainly wouldn't be posting on the internet, anyway.

But I think it does come down to "maturity" in my profession. I have learned how (and earned the right) to make decisions on how and who to spend my time with. I still think teachers that are newer haven't had time to develope the skills that allow them to cultivate great interaction and communication between themselves and students without giving mixed signals as to what is ok and what is not. It certainly took me a little while to get it right, how to make a student know they are worthy and special without it beeing seen as an invitation cross the professional boundaries.

And that is really why I think those no-frat clauses exist. It gives people a "training period" to learn how to sort through things. At first there is a concrete rule for everyone to follow. Then slowly you test the waters to see what happens.

"Gee I went to student A's summer BBQ, but I didn't go to student B's BBQ, and now B feels slighted and made a hurt remark about me liking A better."

Is certainly a different scenario than:

"Wow, Student C just found out they have breast cancer and thinks they are going to die, I think I can go to their house and meet the other people that they feel have made a difference in their life."

I know that a lot of times dancing (and therefore myself and Steve) is a huge part of peoples lives. I would never want someone to think that I don't care to be around them or that I don't appreciate the offers. Or worse yet that I only want to be around them when I am getting paid to do so. And anyone that knows me can tell the difference.

But sometimes it is not that easy. It is best to just not mix business with pleasure sometimes. That way no one gets upset, or intruded upon, or feels neglected/slighted. And it keeps the situation fair so we all can down to doing what we love. Dancing.

[Larinda McRaven]

However, I can't stand it when I walk into a Barnes & Noble or CVS or whomever, and they ask me if I have a membership card (or whatever it is they call it) to track my purchases. I pay full price to protect my privacy and that's what I tell them. Those that have seen me enough have stopped asking, thank goodness.


Me too... I hate those things. I don't have a single one on my keychain, and am proud of it.

[love2swing]

Very well put Larinda. I remember a previous thread about this, and that's the point I was trying to make, only you wrote in much nicer.

[DancePoet]

No DP I didn't take your post as critical. And heck if I can't weather people taking pop shots at me... I certainly wouldn't be posting on the internet, anyway.
Yes, you strike me has having a strong sense of emotional stability.

But I think it does come down to "maturity" in my profession. I have learned how (and earned the right) to make decisions on how and who to spend my time with. I still think teachers that are newer haven't had time to develope the skills that allow them to cultivate great interaction and communication between themselves and students without giving mixed signals as to what is ok and what is not. It certainly took me a little while to get it right, how to make a student know they are worthy and special without it being seen as an invitation cross the professional boundaries.

And that is really why I think those no-frat clauses exist. It gives people a "training period" to learn how to sort through things. At first there is a concrete rule for everyone to follow. Then slowly you test the waters to see what happens.
I like your opinion on why the no-frat clauses should exist, so my next comment doesn't refer to that, but more towards the concept of leadership in a community.

I'm sure you have more experience dealing with this sort of thing in the dance community then me, and that's why your view point is valuable. Just becareful about viewing it as a "right", because that's when actions could possibly be perceived the wrong way as well.

"Gee I went to student A's summer BBQ, but I didn't go to student B's BBQ, and now B feels slighted and made a hurt remark about me liking A better."

Is certainly a different scenario than:

"Wow, Student C just found out they have breast cancer and thinks they are going to die, I think I can go to their house and meet the other people that they feel have made a difference in their life."
True, yet as a leader, there is the possibility of going to one person's BBQ one year, and another the next, and explaining the limits of time to both. However, drawing a No BBQ line, or whatever, is certainly understandable when you carry on the kind of schedule that leader's often do.

I know that a lot of times dancing (and therefore myself and Steve) is a huge part of peoples lives. I would never want someone to think that I don't care to be around them or that I don't appreciate the offers. Or worse yet that I only want to be around them when I am getting paid to do so. And anyone that knows me can tell the difference.
See, now this is the Larinda I suspected existed anyway because real leader's who are worth following have these traits. :D

But sometimes it is not that easy. It is best to just not mix business with pleasure sometimes. That way no one gets upset, or intruded upon, or feels neglected/slighted. And it keeps the situation fair so we all can down to doing what we love. Dancing.
I do understand what you are getting at, and I suspect you probably balance this better then most.

[johns]

The studio where I study has a strict non-fraternization policy. When discussing it with some other students, most of the points already raised in the thread came up, so I'll only mention the ones I haven't seen discussed yet.

Some of the students are married and come without their spouses. Their husbands or wives aren't interested in dancing. Given the very close interactions during lessons, I imagine it's easier on the spouse to know that nothing more can, or at least should, be going on with the teacher. The official policy contributes to a safe learning environment.

One situation that has been hard on people is when a student transitions to teaching. All of a sudden, spending time with their close friends has to stop, as this would violate the student-teacher fraternization policy. It is difficult for the friends, and I imagine it can be quite lonely for the new teacher.

- John

[squirrel]

Thank God I live in Romania! We are still free!

My school has no such rules... in fact, I encourage my instructors to mingle with the students... we hang out together not only in Salsa events but outside as well...

About protection of the instructors: well, you don't wanna mess with me! Really... If I hear that one of the instructors is harrassed, that student is OUT OF THE DOOR NOW! Right that very moment! I don't care about his money... Also, I expect my instructors to be able to deal with harrassement and not come to me or my partner every time a student asks them out! They are grown ups and if they are still immature, well, life is tough... it's time to learn and grow up!

About protecting the students: they are grown ups as well or should be (see above). So sleeping with an instructor or a fellow student is entirely their choice. I've had a student in love with one of the instructors and wanting to leave... I talked him out of it... I have another student who had a relationship with one of the new students and they broke up and now one of them wants to quit coming for a while... let him do so! Life is hard... I am not there to pamper people... I can listen and try to be honest about things... but Mother Teresa - I've never been her nor do I want to be!

I've been hurt deeply by one of my instructors, then by a fellow student... I had a nervous breakdown... but now I'm fine... part of my "growing up" process... What doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

I am sorry if I seem so blunt and uncaring... I've witnessed hurt and mess and love and pain and everything... I've lived them myself... but I don't want some stupid rule to tell me who to date...! If I am a vulnerable being and sleep with a bastard... well, I have to live by it!

If an instructor makes the lives of my students miserable, out of the door he goes! I can train another one and I don't care how good they are! Really!

[pygmalion]

Wow. You are tough, squirrel.

I can relate to where you may be coming from. This is a way old thread, which I'm too lazy to re-read. So I have no idea what I said before. I suspect I'm more mellow now. :lol:

I really think that the bulk of the reason behind this policies is more about protecting studio revenues and protecting studios from law suits, than anything else.


Studio revenues -- teacher leaves and takes students with him/her to a competitor or teacher falls in love with student and starts teaching them (a former paying student) gratis or failed love affair causes student to leave in a huff taking thousands of dollars in business with her/him


Law suits -- teacher or student feels sexually or emotionally harassed and decides to sue the studio


Also, ballroom studios, most of which have these policies, have a VERY checkered past in the US. There were huge scandals a few decades ago in which studios were accused of all sorts of emotional abuse and manipulation of students. Maybe these policies are in place as an outcome of all that past ugliness.

Eh. This is America. Land of the free. Home of the litigious. What can I say? :? *shrug*

[fascination]

Quote:
Everyone knows the turnover rate.

You mean teachers? Yes I mean teachers.

Quote:
Also, you can't pay special attention to one student over the rest and give them special privledges which you might be inclined to do if you were dating a particular student.

Might be true for group lessons, but doesn't apply to private lessons I assume. No, I mean in general you should never give special attention to one student over another. You should try to treat everyone the same. We all know it's not easy and doesn't always happen but you should at least try to keep it that way.excetp ya know if you have private students who are always cancelling and you have hard working dedicated students who never cancel and who you know are going to go to comps...you've got to be a fool not to give them priority and who could fault you?

[fascination]

The studio where I study has a strict non-fraternization policy. When discussing it with some other students, most of the points already raised in the thread came up, so I'll only mention the ones I haven't seen discussed yet.

Some of the students are married and come without their spouses. Their husbands or wives aren't interested in dancing. Given the very close interactions during lessons, I imagine it's easier on the spouse to know that nothing more can, or at least should, be going on with the teacher. The official policy contributes to a safe learning environment.

One situation that has been hard on people is when a student transitions to teaching. All of a sudden, spending time with their close friends has to stop, as this would violate the student-teacher fraternization policy. It is difficult for the friends, and I imagine it can be quite lonely for the new teacher.

- John a policy will never stop a hormone

[pygmalion]

Thanks for resurrecting one of my fave threads, fascination. It'll be interesting to see if we get any new perspectives on the topic. 8)

And oh, btw, you're right. A policy never stopped a hormone, that I know of. :lol: :lol:

[ratherbdancing]

For the people who go to studios with these policies: are their pro/am competitors at these studios because I don't see how a policy like that could really stay in-tact with competitors?

[pygmalion]

For the people who go to studios with these policies: are their pro/am competitors at these studios because I don't see how a policy like that could really stay in-tact with competitors?

Hmm. Why do you say that, rbd? How are competitors different, in your view? Meaning, a couple of franchise studios have both non-fraternization contracts and internal competitions. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. :?

[Indiana_Jay]

For the people who go to studios with these policies: are their pro/am competitors at these studios because I don't see how a policy like that could really stay in-tact with competitors?

There are at mine. In fact, one of my fellow students won her competition at the recent DC event while dancing with our studio owner.

[macha]

a policy will never stop a hormone Common sense would- if people'd use it.

I figure that if I have to pay these people to put one hand on my shoulderblade and hold my hand with their other, I'm not friend material. I'm a student, that's what I pay for, and I really should know my place better than to go buddying up to them. They have friends already. What would I have to offer that's so astoundingly different from what they already have.

Saying hello in the store, chatting awhile if calling to confirm a private lesson, meeting them at a streetfest, that's ok, but stopping by with a casserole... nah- I should know better- it's up TO ME to know better.

I think I'd rather be too distant than too chummy. I don't want to feel like an idiot for sitting on someone. It's easy to do that when someone who helps you or teaches you is NICE to you. You can't ever make the mistake that it's anything more than instruction.

The people at our lessons are very friendly and helpful. I wouldn't do anything to change that. I don't know if it's that I'm not as outgoing and friendly, or if I just don't want to impose any more than I'd want to BE imposed upon, but so far it works. But then, I don't go around looking to boff instructors or other students. I don't know why people can't separate things- It must be really hard in different places to do so. Are people so led by their bodies that their mind just sits up there for the ride? Actually, I don't think that's even a lot of it. I think it's just some students/people are natural-born kiss-asses and drama-queens, and some are actually there for the right reasons. They need a pat on the head from someone- namely an instructor- to validate their existence. They don't realise that in the end... we're still all going to die anyway, regardless of how many more gold stars we get than someone else, and it won't matter.

(I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd online lately- I have to stop being so brooding and frigid, Lol)

[fascination]

For the people who go to studios with these policies: are their pro/am competitors at these studios because I don't see how a policy like that could really stay in-tact with competitors?

There are at mine. In fact, one of my fellow students won her competition at the recent DC event while dancing with our studio owner.RAther Be Dancing: I still have NO IDEA WHAT DISTINCTION YOU ARE MAKING or what is has to do with student dancing w/ instructor etc...can you be a bit more specific...on how you thing this depends upon whether or not a studio has competitive dancers??? I am confused :wink:

[fascination]

a policy will never stop a hormone Common sense would- if people'd use it.

I figure that if I have to pay these people to put one hand on my shoulderblade and hold my hand with their other, I'm not friend material. I'm a student, that's what I pay for, and I really should know my place better than to go buddying up to them. They have friends already. What would I have to offer that's so astoundingly different from what they already have.

Saying hello in the store, chatting awhile if calling to confirm a private lesson, meeting them at a streetfest, that's ok, but stopping by with a casserole... nah- I should know better- it's up TO ME to know better.

I think I'd rather be too distant than too chummy. I don't want to feel like an idiot for sitting on someone. It's easy to do that when someone who helps you or teaches you is NICE to you. You can't ever make the mistake that it's anything more than instruction.

The people at our lessons are very friendly and helpful. I wouldn't do anything to change that. I don't know if it's that I'm not as outgoing and friendly, or if I just don't want to impose any more than I'd want to BE imposed upon, but so far it works. But then, I don't go around looking to boff instructors or other students. I don't know why people can't separate things- It must be really hard in different places to do so. Are people so led by their bodies that their mind just sits up there for the ride? Actually, I don't think that's even a lot of it. I think it's just some students/people are natural-born kiss-asses and drama-queens, and some are actually there for the right reasons. They need a pat on the head from someone- namely an instructor- to validate their existence. They don't realise that in the end... we're still all going to die anyway, regardless of how many more gold stars we get than someone else, and it won't matter.

(I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd online lately- I have to stop being so brooding and frigid, Lol)no macha as usual you're just a slightly harsh version of dead on...truly peopl who are taking privates have to exercise discretion and not harness all of their psycohlogical well-being into who a lesson goes....I learned this after my first comp when I started to totally lose grip on reality...and it is not pretty for the student or the teacher...and counter productive to good progress and enjoyment and a collegiality among the other students...I still think its fine though for rational people who enjoy each others company to discreetly exercise their own judgement regarding when and where and how often to asociate outside the studio....emphasis on discreet...emphasis on matur individuals....emphasis on exercise good judgment

[ratherbdancing]

I brought this up because at my studio, the teachers all extremely close with their compeititors. Most of them travel with their students and even stay with them at competitions in the hotel rooms to save money. Because of this time at competitions, we are all close outside of the compeitions as well, for instance we go to parties, dinner, whatever all the time because of the relationship that has been built through all this time spent together at comps. Does this help clarify?

edit: based on some of the stipulations of the non-fraternization contracts, wouldnt the above violate that?

[fascination]

I brought this up because at my studio, the teachers all extremely close with their compeititors. Most of them travel with their students and even stay with them at competitions in the hotel rooms to save money. Because of this time at competitions, we are all close outside of the compeitions as well, for instance we go to parties, dinner, whatever all the time because of the relationship that has been built through all this time spent together at comps. Does this help clarify?

edit: based on some of the stipulations of the non-fraternization contracts, wouldnt the above violate that?thanks for clarifying....like I said, i briefly saw this non-fraternization clause in our contract and instructors don't don't linger and make themselves overly available on studio time which is good for all of the reasons you mention, but in practice I see alot of flexibility at our studio regarding this...and as you said particularly when it comes to competitive students...its just the nature of the beast

[macha]

Well, I know that we take private lessons to polish up what we learn in groups (and learn survival tricks for other dance settings, like public, etc.)... I know there are those- I've seen them at our studio already- who take private lessons just to rub up on someone and have, in essence, a dance-whore for fifty-five minutes at a time. I admit- we use dancing as an escape, a brief reprieve from J's work, my family and friends (well, the "friends like these..." friends, not friends friends), and so on, but we're not looking for anything else. Dancing is a fun escape, but when the music stops, so does the magic- until the next dance! :lol:

But, hey- that's fine- whatever they want to do, and however they get their kicks. Personally, rechargable batteries are just as effective and a more renewable resource to protect our dancing environment :twisted: , but if they want to pay for the white corvette that says DNCE TCH outside, the nice floating maple floor, the gorgeous faux columns with the purple and the lights... that's cool- more money I don't have to pay :D

I know that if our teachers thought it was going too far for their personal space or perspective, they'd nip it, but I think that they actually like to make people feel worth something for just a few minutes out of a week, and then send them on their way :D

[fascination]

Well, I know that we take private lessons to polish up what we learn in groups (and learn survival tricks for other dance settings, like public, etc.)... I know there are those- I've seen them at our studio already- who take private lessons just to rub up on someone and have, in essence, a dance-whore for fifty-five minutes at a time. I admit- we use dancing as an escape, a brief reprieve from J's work, my family and friends (well, the "friends like these..." friends, not friends friends), and so on, but we're not looking for anything else. Dancing is a fun escape, but when the music stops, so does the magic- until the next dance! :lol:

But, hey- that's fine- whatever they want to do, and however they get their kicks. Personally, rechargable batteries are just as effective and a more renewable resource to protect our dancing environment :twisted: , but if they want to pay for the white corvette that says DNCE TCH outside, the nice floating maple floor, the gorgeous faux columns with the purple and the lights... that's cool- more money I don't have to pay :D

I know that if our teachers thought it was going too far for their personal space or perspective, they'd nip it, but I think that they actually like to make people feel worth something for just a few minutes out of a week, and then send them on their way :D :lol: :lol: :lol: I do hear some folk have crushes, but that is another thread...gotta tell ya though I don't even see our studio owners let alone the others teachers approaching that kind of dough, but if I happen to play some part in seeing that my instructor does well financially, my husband I both couldn't be happier....and I am not talking about fraternization where money grubbing teacher is nice to lonely and pathetic person to line their pockets...I am saying there are some folks beyond myself who genuinely have a rapport and occasionally do stuff for healthy and genuine reasons....it IS possible for people to be kind to one another in a dance environment for genuine reasons that don't involve exploitation on either side....yes, sometimes some folks think that and it is niave and they are really being exploited or getting what they really want which is some sort of fantasy, but for goodness sakes macha, can you leave open the possibility that there are still some decent people in the world...I am beginning to think that you and saludas should have tea :wink:

[fascination]

and macha...how do you know what is motivating someone else to pay for privates....as I said in another post we have one very beautiful young woman who looks very sensual...its just the way she looks and it looks like she is coming on to guys just by the way she carries herself but she is really the shyest most insecure woman who would be comepletely freaked if someone mistook her demanor for what you are describing....but I have heard people judge her unmercifully

[macha]

Trust me- there's a difference. If you can't see it, wait- you eventually will. And I say this not from dancelihood, but from anything.

Besides- ease off- I said "some"... there's no need for me to put a warning label or disclaimer on everything I write. Read this, please:

I know there are those Where does that sound like I said "Everybody who does"... ??

I don't want to give the guy's name away, but he's one of these mentioned people. Any new woman walking through the door who doesn't have a male attached, he "swoops in on them". I've watched the girls with whom he dances already "adjusting the hand"- putting it back up on their back, not their waist or hips, and I've seen the "stiff left arm of steel"- holding him in a particular space- and not closer.

There are also the women who become necklaces and belt-buckles, and then there are the ones who, as you described, are very sensual and lively dancers.

That being said :roll:

No, I can't read your palms from this distance, but please know that I'm not picking apart the dark, insecure corners of your guilty mind. I'm not even writing at you, ok?

[fascination]

Trust me- there's a difference. If you can't see it, wait- you eventually will. And I say this not from dancelihood, but from anything.

Besides- ease off- I said "some"... there's no need for me to put a warning label or disclaimer on everything I write. Read this, please:

I know there are those Where does that sound like I said "Everybody who does"... ??

I don't want to give the guy's name away, but he's one of these mentioned people. Any new woman walking through the door who doesn't have a male attached, he "swoops in on them". I've watched the girls with whom he dances already "adjusting the hand"- putting it back up on their back, not their waist or hips, and I've seen the "stiff left arm of steel"- holding him in a particular space- and not closer.

There are also the women who become necklaces and belt-buckles, and then there are the ones who, as you described, are very sensual and lively dancers.

That being said :roll:

No, I can't read your palms from this distance, but please know that I'm not picking apart the dark, insecure corners of your guilty mind. I'm not even writing at you, ok? none of my guilt lives in the dark...as both my husband and my instructor know, he would be on my short list of men who are worth it if I ever get dumped or am widowed....I like it that way...it keeps that kind of misbehavior at bay...so please don't judge me either...but okay okay, you didnt say everyone...it just sounded like you left no room at all for any benign interactions btwn students and teachers and I just find that sort of cynicism as bad as the niavete in other extreme...and I think that sort of cynicism when it goes past healthy caution, can really fuel the mistrust and manipulation that does go on....when I see so many posts of that tone....its like everytime my teacher says something nice I am supposed to say to myself remember he's just doing that to keep you coming back.....I would never be able to dance with him if I beleived that every single thing he or any other instructor or the owner there said was to either get in my pants or my wallet....that's all...truce?

[macha]

Fair enough 8)

[Medira]

I can see the logic and understanding behind non-fraternization policies in studios. I can see how, in some situations, it protects the instructors from unwanted advances and I can also see how it can protect the students from less-than-honourable instructors. However, I think that they have the potential to be too restrictive. For example, in the city I live in, there are very limited venues where we can go out social dancing. With the price of gas being as high as it is, people are less inclined to make the 45 minute drive into downtown Toronto in order to go out for a night of dancing...so the local venues have been getting busier and busier. There have been a few occasions now where I've run into 3 or 4 instructors from the studio and their responses are always different. I will go over and say hello, but I don't usually ask them to dance, simply because they're off the clock and I would feel bad if they felt obligated to accept a dance request, simply because I am a student at the studio. However, some will be friendly and chat for a while and sometimes ask to dance with me, while others will be polite, but short and to the point, while reminding me not to mention that I saw them out for fear of getting in trouble, if the wrong people overhear and misinterpret what we're saying. It's that fear of being reprimanded or, in the worst case scenario, losing their job that could turn their night out into a potentially uncomfortable situation. It's that kind of situation where I think a non-fraternization policy has the potential to be too strict.