Does the follow need to know patterns?

[blue]

From another thread, in the general dance forum

The follower does not need to learn patterns; she needs to learn how to follow the lead.

Is this completely true always, also in lindy? I somehow feel that a charlestone can not be completely followed if you have not seen it before - you kind of need to know what is coming. I have heard several people saying that a swingout from open to open position (lindy turn for the Brits) can not be led unless the lady knows her part - not only to follow well, but to follow this specific move.

Comments?

[Doug]

I think that for the follow to have seen patterns is useful, but at slow tempos not entirely necessary. At 220 BPM the reaction time to even a very clear lead may still not allow you to do a move that you have never seen before. So my answer is - sometimes. I think that it is valuable for the follow to have a sense of the flow of the move, but details, like put your foot here, etc. it would appear are almost never required.

Since my prefered dance is Balboa, I frequently find myself trying to lead follows in new moves at high tempo - sometimes it works and sometimes not. But baboal dancers generally understand and can cope.

[huey]

From another thread, in the general dance forum

The follower does not need to learn patterns; she needs to learn how to follow the lead.

Is this completely true always, also in lindy? I somehow feel that a charlestone can not be completely followed if you have not seen it before - you kind of need to know what is coming. I have heard several people saying that a swingout from open to open position (lindy turn for the Brits) can not be led unless the lady knows her part - not only to follow well, but to follow this specific move.

Comments?
No, I don't think it's completely true in Lindy. The back Charleston can't really be led if a follower hasn't done it before. I don't think a swingout (lindy turn) can be either. But other elements of the dance can.

I do think the general principle of leading and following rather than dancing set patterns is important though. Ultimately, I imagine that a really satisfying dance is one where it is very hard to distinguish patterns. It becomes one dance, not a series of patterns. Both partners are playing a game fitting rhythmic movements to the music. I'm a long way from that point at the moment, but it's something I'm vaguely heading towards.

[suek]

The follower does not need to learn patterns; she needs to learn how to follow the lead.

Is this completely true always, also in lindy? I somehow feel that a charleston can not be completely followed if you have not seen it before - you kind of need to know what is coming.

No, I don't think it's completely true in Lindy. The back Charleston can't really be led if a follower hasn't done it before. I don't think a swingout (lindy turn) can be either. But other elements of the dance can.

I do think the general principle of leading and following rather than dancing set patterns is important though. Ultimately, I imagine that a really satisfying dance is one where it is very hard to distinguish patterns. It becomes one dance, not a series of patterns. Both partners are playing a game fitting rhythmic movements to the music. I'm a long way from that point at the moment, but it's something I'm vaguely heading towards.

Here's how I see it and try to do it, in no apparent order
-when I take classes where a pattern is taught I often close my eyes and cover my ears so that when I practice I practice following
-a follower's principle: keep my footwork/rhythm, and keep doing what was last led and go in the direction I was last given at the same speed (keeping in mind that momentum will peter out if the lead backs off) until given a lead to do something else
-what we are doing with our feet doesn't always have to match; what's important is that we match our bounce, our rhythm, our connection. If people are going to notice you dancing they will notice your upper bodies much more than your feet, esp on a crowded dance floor!

About charleston...it is led! Even back to front charleston is led. Tandem for example: my footwork is established in side to side or ftf charleston and then I'm turned so my back is to my leader.I keep my footwork/rhythm and my lead is responsible (since the lead has the only visual in this move) to connect with me so that I have the lead communication I need.

There is no presumptive lead in charleston. There's no presumptive lead in lindy hop period. Even shadow charleston--another back to front variation--my lead's frame gives me every single indication of where my weight is, when I turn, all of it.

All I have to do (simple but not easy) is keep my footwork and my frame. All the lead has to do is lead it!

[Jmatthew]

I think in Lindy there comes a point where you don't dance "patterns" so much as you dance "principles" and learning patterns opens your eyes to more potential principles. I think this point comes very early for follows, and very late for leads.

For a follower (in most dances, I think) the opportunity in learning patterns is to see that there's a new option that can be lead, so when it is lead, you aren't suprised, and to prep you for your reaction to that new lead.

It's kind of like Baseball, I'm sure every fielder would figure out pretty quick to throw to first when there's no one on base, but having a coach make you do it a thousand times makes you that much quicker at doing it. Learning patterns is something like that. You'd figure them out on your own when it happened enough, but being lead through them lets you think about it less.

[Vince A]

Patterns, principles, lead, follow . . .

I believe that follows should learn "patterns" (as used for this thread) if they ever intend to learn to lead. So, they should pay attention, and start picking up "patterns." If they never intend to learn to lead . . . does it matter? Maybe, maybe not!

We've all heard that "the man has the hardest part" Correct??? He has to lead, think in advance, and watch the floor, etc.

But what about the follow? With so many leaders out there, many variables to each pattern "must" exist, and I believe the follow has a very difficult job of deciding which variable she/he is in, be able to react to it without thinking or anticipating, and to go where she/he is lead.

The "hardest" part for the follow is to learn to fully commit his/her weight upon that foot which he/she just stepped (esp. in WCS) . . . not be "split-weighted" (which is what we do when we are walking). Fully commting the weight to the foot that just stepped leaves the other foot free to be able to react to the input from the lead.

Just my 2(ents . . .

[Swingolder]

When you say followers don't need to learn patterns, how comfortable or confident of themselves do you think they have to be before they can just follow whatever is led? As a follower, I am obviously nowhere near that point! It also would take a very confident leader, I think, and I don't dance with many of those. Except maybe my instructor who is very good and therefore a little intimidating.

I don't dance with too many different leads, mostly the ones who started lessons at the same time. So we all need to improve, I guess.

[Firephreek]

From another thread, in the general dance forum

The follower does not need to learn patterns; she needs to learn how to follow the lead.

Is this completely true always, also in lindy? I somehow feel that a charlestone can not be completely followed if you have not seen it before - you kind of need to know what is coming. I have heard several people saying that a swingout from open to open position (lindy turn for the Brits) can not be led unless the lady knows her part - not only to follow well, but to follow this specific move.

Comments?

This is such a dangerous thing to be said. It makes me wince everytime I hear it.

The fact of the matter is that a good follow can adapt to most anything. I've have taken Argentine Tango Dancers out on the floor who have never danced Lindy/Waltz/Cha Cha and had them follow 90% of everything I led. Part of this is because the developed connection is crucial to the dance itselt. I can lead well and they could follow. In Lindy, we can get away with less connection.

However! The follow in every case should still know her part! Because of the number of variations, she should know what options are open to her and what is anticipated by the lead. If you know a pattern well, you know how you can break it apart and do more with it. This leads to major stylings and imporv. Eventually, a couple should start to dance with a Lead-Follow-Follow action. The idea here is that the Lead iniates a pattern, the follow makes a decision, and then the Lead follows that new direction. Its like courtship.

An example pattern would be, say, an inside turn. The Lead can begin the turn, but what if the lady decides to jam through and ends up further away. If the Lead only just did his part, they might end up in an awkward position. He has to watch her, see where she goes, and then move to compensate. A fun variation is when she hijacks the turn. Typical for WC, but done in Lindy: at the end of 2, instead of turning, the Follow just stops. Maybe does a boogie, break, whatever. I've even had it where she completly pulls out the rug and spins me. She knows that its ok to do it where she does because she knows the pattern, knows where she's expected and where I'll be. If someone did absoltly nothing but follow, they'd be a sheep.

"Men are Left because the Ladies are always Right."

[pygmalion]

Hi Firephreek. Welcome. :D

[Firephreek]

Hi Firephreek. Welcome. :D

Thanks! I Was looking for anyone else who had interest in atypical dance music last night and found a thread on this site, but it's old. No worries, found a great new site. I just couldn't resist my two cents in this thread.

[huey]

Hi Firephreek. Welcome. :D

Thanks! I Was looking for anyone else who had interest in atypical dance music last night and found a thread on this site, but it's old. No worries, found a great new site. I just couldn't resist my two cents in this thread.

Hi Firephreek,

When you say you found a 'great new site', do you mean another site? If so, which one?

[Flat Shoes]

Here's my take:
A follower needs to know the elements of the dance. And that's not possible to learn, without learning a certain amount of basic patterns.

Most patterns can be lead 100%, which means a follower does not need to know the exact pattern to follow, and it means there is room for improvisation and making up patterns and combinations on the fly.

A few patterns are impossible to lead. For example almost all air-steps, but also a few others.

One thing I like about Lindy Hop, is that it contains so many different elements. For me that means, being good at Lindy, means being able to dance something to almost any kind of music. And that's why i love Lindy. Combine Lindy with Argentine Tango, and the world is yours 8)

[Vince A]

Here's my take:A few patterns are impossible to lead. For example almost all air-steps, but also a few others.

Good point!

Moves like that, as well as many other moves, like Boogie Walks, are done w/o connection, so how does the follower know to do them and when. The follower has to know the moves in order to imitate the leader, or do their own thing, which is OK too! Bit I think it looks better if both are doing the same thing.

[blue]

Can a list of those unleadably moves, besides the obvious jazz steps, be made?

Or is it more like a continous scale with the air steps and jazz steps at one end, where some steps are more leadable than others?

[suek]

Okay I get that some of my comments may have been misleading (good word!). When I say that I don't pay as much attention to choreography when taught in class, I'm talking about partnerned patterns, like swingout, swingout, tuck turn, circle, two-beat stall, six-count sugarpush, etc. Because I want to practice following, I don't want to know when that stall is coming, I want to be receptive to the lead.

For jazz steps classes or practice, I have my eyes and ears wide open. I absolutely love practicing solo jazz steps and jazz routines. (Have just learned and am daily practicing the first half of Hot Pockets.)

So when I'm partner dancing, I have a choice of practiced jazz steps to use when my lead sets that up. Now here's another principle: my lead can set the rhythm/speed/direction, but he can't control my feet. For example, lead drops connection and starts boogying back. I can boogie back too. Or I can applejacks back. Or I can fishtail back. Or I can stay in place and mess around (hip circles). Another example: my lead can put us in open and start me going circularly around him while he's tacky Annie-ing in place. I can do switches; I can do Suzy Qs, I can keep my knees together and just make up a tight swiveling motion that fits the music. Or: the lead can Shorty George forward in which case I will always do something else (boogie forward for example) because my Shorty Georges still suck.

Wow. This must read like a foreign language. Kinda pleases me to do this as it shows me how hard I've been working to acquire this vocabulary.

[Firephreek]

Hi Firephreek. Welcome. :D

Thanks! I Was looking for anyone else who had interest in atypical dance music last night and found a thread on this site, but it's old. No worries, found a great new site. I just couldn't resist my two cents in this thread.

Hi Firephreek,

When you say you found a 'great new site', do you mean another site? If so, which one?

There was another site I remember visiting, similiar I think to this one, but I don't remember where. This site may not be 'new', but its new to me. I'm glad I found it.

[SDsalsaguy]

This site may not be 'new', but its new to me. I'm glad I found it.
So are we Firephreek! :D

[Vince A]

. . . yeppers . . .

[shopper-lisa]

hi... as a new follow I have noticed that it is helpful to know patterns because even though it should be truely followed (technically not just doing a pattern) it is helpful to have done the step and have it in muscle memory. That helps me actually follow without also tripping over my own feet...

[d nice]

We aren't actually talking about thew question at hand. I think everyone has said the same thing and then tossed in what they see as exceptions or with a warning...

I'll say it clean and simple. As far as the Lindy Hop is concerned the follower never has to know a pattern to follow a social dance.

Of course theiur are times when she must be able to respond correctly with the exact amount of X force and Y technique to Z move, but does she have to know Z move itself? The answer, philosophically is no.

Realistically the answer is probably a bit closer to yes. MOst aeirals were not meant nor should be danced on the social floor... that being said I can lead a good follow in an aerial she doesn't know if she knows ones that require her to execute with the same amount of technique. If she can do a Russian Split Kick in Charleston I can lead her in a basic lift or toss out even if she has never been taught those moves because she haas been taught the technique for them already.

Lindy Hop is based on the swing out... it is the fundamental move, meaning the technique and interaction present for the step to be properly led and followed is used in every other move in lindy hop. I can tell after swinging out with someone how they are going to dance any particular step I give them.

Things like jazz steps are a different case... Not all leads have to be physical... I can lead my partner into a breakaway jazz step, knowing that once I let go of her I am no longer physically "in-charge". She may choose to visually follow my lead, I may call out to her giving her a verbal lead, or she may choose to simply improvise to the music in which case we are complimenting the music and each other without having to match.

Now visually us both executing the same step may seem better, but I contend that such external esthetics are more based on a competitive or show mindset rather than in the moment where simply responding honestly with each other and the music will givejust as visually exciting a step.

SO back to this realistic thing... in order for a follower to learn the right techniques and under what rules they are governed she has to either be a kinesthetic genius or has to learn by drilling. The easiest way to drill is to break the movement down to its base parts as well as practice the entire movement together, meaning executing moves one step at a time, isolated from the greater context as well as in in one flowing unit. I would say that a follower would end up learning about 15-20% of the common patterns in Lindy Hop before she had the ability to be lead well in moves she had never seen before.

It is important that the difference be acknowledged between a follower recognizing a pattern by repetition and knowing how to respond to the individual elements inhereint to said pattern, and then learning to recognize a pattern and so she can execute her "half".

[swinginstyle]

What if I want to switch into balboa, for example? I'm shy about doing this to unsuspecting follows, because I don't know if they would start following balboa smoothly if it was introduced in between dancing lindy. I think the follow would have to know elements of the basic dances associated with lindy, such as charleston (whether side by side or tandem), balboa, shag. However, I suprised myself this weekend at STLBX by going from lindy to balboa with a follow I had never danced with before.

[d nice]

I'll stand by my original statement that a follower does not need to know a dance that is based on physical body leads. Now would knowing the basic lead/follow and rhythm of balboa help with the transition... yes, but balboa like waltz is a full body dance you pull a follower through it even if she has no idea what is going on... the joy of leading weight shifts.

The hardest thing about transition between dances a follower does not know or leading moves she does not know is whether or not she will "panic" and stop reacting to your lead and start thinking about your lead. If she just stays relaxed and moves with you then it is your lead that will determine how well she follows it. For transitioning into balboa a lindy circle can be used in place of a come-around and you would start your bal basic the same way you would after the come-around. A rock step from closed that brings her into a face-to-face position with a hold on three is another extremely simple way to transition into balboa from lindy hop... neither of these requires any for knowledge on the followers part.

Again, her ability to follow a dance or move she does not know is directly propotionate to her skill at not anticipating or interrpreting, and your skill at giving clear and concise leads that initiate full weight changes.