Hitting Breaks

[rails]

I notice that, around here at least, very few salsa people hit breaks in the music. They just dance right through them. Last night I tried to hit a break with two different followers. I tried to lead it too. It didn't go well. They just kept up the 1-2-3 5-6-7 and looked at me with confused expressions.

I was wondering how breaks are typically handled in other cities. Do most people hit them where you live or do they just dance through them? It's quite a change from the Lindy scene where hitting breaks is a big deal.

[NWesterner]

Salsa's not my main dance by any means, but dancing to the music is a pretty universal topic. My experience, both as a dancer and a teacher, is that beginners - and this goes on well on into lots of intermediate, "improver" territory - have to hang on to the basic rhythm for dear life, and have little concentration or creativity left over to really dance musically. This is compounded in salsa, where the clave can give inexeperienced dancers, especially us gringos, absolute fits. Just hanging on to that basic beat becomes a life-or-death struggle!

Hitting a break requires either familiarity with a particular song, or having a good enough grasp of the usual structure of the music you dance to to be able to predict it. Plus you need to have a sufficient grasp of your dance that you're not spending all your conscious energy thinking of what to do next and how to do it. If you're hitting them, you're tuned in to all that, but it might be the furthest thing from your partner's mind (& feet :wink:)

Your job as a leader is to make hitting the break so clear and natural that your partner does it without even realizing what she did. That's probably not going to happen in an open position, or happen at all with a newcomer who's just trying to keep the basic going - tho' that, again, depends on the mastery of your lead: if she's in your arms, and you pause (for instance), with strength and focus, looking in her eyes, and 100% of you is there in that pause (and it's on the music), even a complete beginner might just hit it with you.

Keep dancing to the music, rails, there's not nearly enough of that going around :applause:. The more (and better) you do it, the more your partners will catch on.

[salsachinita]

This is something I call "light & shade"...........my favourite leads WILL dance to the music hitting/accenting all the breaks or "peaks & valleys".

As a follower I do what I can..........with certain partners it can be fairly difficult though :roll: ..........

The real challenge is to obtain the right balance between being smooth, while creating drama by accenting the music........

[Sagitta]

Grab them tight and they'll hit it alright. One person was telling me tonight that of all the people whom she had danced with I moved my hips, my body the best. I just said listen to the music. Let it tell you, let it move you. She actually started doing it!! I put her in a cuddle and held her tight and she got one break just right. :wink: :)

[squirrel]

:) other "Sassy hips"?! :P :wink:

[MacMoto]

NWesterner makes good points. Hitting breaks is about musicality, and only a handful of leaders in my scene seem to play with the music. On one hand you have those who are inexperienced dancers who need to (as NWesterner says) keep to the basic 1-2-3, 5-6-7, and on the other hand you get more proficient leaders who just goes through their pattern repertoires no matter what the music says, which can be frustrating especially when I know a dramatic pause is coming in my favourite song and the leader isn't interested in hitting it. Musicality always counts highly in my book.

[Vin]

Another culprit in this mess is the mixing dj. One night I went to hit a break in a song and it wasn't there, not for another 30 seconds because the dj had mixed the song to keep one part going longer.
Sometimes during a break in the music I literally just stop dancing, would this count as hitting the break?

[NWesterner]

Sure it counts, that's all a pause is: creatively stopping, then starting back up again at the right time. DJs who play for dancers oughta damn well know enough not to screw up a break like that.

[MacMoto]

Creative stopping. I like that :)

[squirrel]

I do that! I am happy! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Sabor]

I notice that, around here at least, very few salsa people hit breaks in the music. They just dance right through them. Last night I tried to hit a break with two different followers. I tried to lead it too. It didn't go well. They just kept up the 1-2-3 5-6-7 and looked at me with confused expressions.

I was wondering how breaks are typically handled in other cities. Do most people hit them where you live or do they just dance through them? It's quite a change from the Lindy scene where hitting breaks is a big deal.

yeah.. happens everywhere and in most places from what i seen, heard and read.. unfortunately :? .. its quite an issue for me, when i try to point it out.. still .. it often dont do much good.. they have to reach that point mostly on their own realization i guess.. meanwhile, suffering mechanical motion

[salsamale]

I notice that, around here at least, very few salsa people hit breaks in the music. They just dance right through them. Last night I tried to hit a break with two different followers. I tried to lead it too. It didn't go well. They just kept up the 1-2-3 5-6-7 and looked at me with confused expressions.

I was wondering how breaks are typically handled in other cities. Do most people hit them where you live or do they just dance through them? It's quite a change from the Lindy scene where hitting breaks is a big deal.
I would agree where others have said that this may be a symptom of under-developed musicality or skill, as I am just starting to hit breaks in the music. For me, recently adding some basic dips to my repertoire has helped me the most, to be more responsive.

For the follows who don't enjoy being dipped, I have observed that the "threat" of a dip, can be just as dramatic and suggestive as an actual dip, and can often induce a smile :). For either a dip or "threat of dip", a follow almost can't help but follow. This progression from dip to "threat of dip", will hopefully lead me to learn other ways of responding to breaks in the music.

I would be interested in hearing how others respond to breaks.

[tj]

Dips and "fake dips" (lol) are certainly good things to do. Even just a dramatic "freeze" (ever play freeze tag when you were a kid? like that), will work just fine.

[yippee1999]

...not sure what it means to "hit" a break. You mean to add some type of emphasis, such as a dramatic pause, when you normally wouldn't be doing a step with your foot?

[tj]

...not sure what it means to "hit" a break. You mean to add some type of emphasis, such as a dramatic pause, when you normally wouldn't be doing a step with your foot?

Yup. In most scenes, beginning to intermediate dancers will just dance thru a break in the music, still doing their basic step.

It used to be the case that salsa instructors never talked about musicality (including playing with breaks), and IMHO, it's something that is mentioned (and done) a lot more nowadays than 3-4 years ago. (Or maybe it just depends on your local scene.)

[Sagitta]

People do talk about it more so than they used to around here, or perhaps it is I know more so I like to yap with others, and pretend I know what I'm talking about.

[tj]

People do talk about it more so than they used to around here, or perhaps it is I know more so I like to yap with others, and pretend I know what I'm talking about.

:-)

[naturallove]

Yup. In most scenes, beginning to intermediate dancers will just dance thru a break in the music, still doing their basic step.

It used to be the case that salsa instructors never talked about musicality (including playing with breaks), and IMHO, it's something that is mentioned (and done) a lot more nowadays than 3-4 years ago. (Or maybe it just depends on your local scene.)
One of my instructors talked about how he used to teach musicality starting after the beginner levels, but noticed that people were getting more 'advanced' without really absorbing how to dance the basic. So now he starts teaching musicality from almost the very beginning in the level 1 classes. I think this is a good philosophy--it is so much more comfortable to dance with a partner who dances the basic, rather than dances flat footed and pulls you along for the ride (but maybe the double dutch arms are another thread!)

[alemana]

hitting a break is so exhilarating.

[sweavo]

If your follower looks askance at you for hitting a break it means there's not enough of a connection for her. It's not the sort of thing you can really do with a beginner follower for reasons others have mentioned. But everything Sagitta and NWesterner said are good. All I'd add, is make sure you have a good mental connection with the follower - if you've spent the whole dance staring into space trying to think of moves then she'll feel a bit like she's on the outside of the dance. If you've given her a couple of grins, a bit of appreciation of any cool details of what she does, then she'll feel a part of what's going on and will relax more and let you play with the structure more.

[MacMoto]

If your follower looks askance at you for hitting a break it means there's not enough of a connection for her. It's not the sort of thing you can really do with a beginner follower for reasons others have mentioned. But everything Sagitta and NWesterner said are good. All I'd add, is make sure you have a good mental connection with the follower - if you've spent the whole dance staring into space trying to think of moves then she'll feel a bit like she's on the outside of the dance. If you've given her a couple of grins, a bit of appreciation of any cool details of what she does, then she'll feel a part of what's going on and will relax more and let you play with the structure more.
This is great advice sweavo :cool:

[RugKutta]

Another culprit in this mess is the mixing dj. One night I went to hit a break in a song and it wasn't there, not for another 30 seconds because the dj had mixed the song to keep one part going longer.
Sometimes during a break in the music I literally just stop dancing, would this count as hitting the break?


I can't stand those "Evil" DJ's that mix salsa songs. Nowadays I am familiar w/ a lot of salsa songs that are played, so when one comes on that I recognize, I look forward to hitting those breaks and changing up w/ the music. However, when DJ's mix songs and mess up the breaks, or mix in a new song before that dramatic ending occurs, it REALLY irks me. We as dancers are not impressed by how well a DJ can mix, we're concerned w/ what you play, when you play it and how much of it is played.

[Blaxican]

NWesterner makes good points. Hitting breaks is about musicality, and only a handful of leaders in my scene seem to play with the music. On one hand you have those who are inexperienced dancers who need to (as NWesterner says) keep to the basic 1-2-3, 5-6-7, and on the other hand you get more proficient leaders who just goes through their pattern repertoires no matter what the music says, which can be frustrating especially when I know a dramatic pause is coming in my favourite song and the leader isn't interested in hitting it. Musicality always counts highly in my book.
I have heard this phrase quite often about "playing with the music." Isn't this what dance is all about? After I got over the "learning curve" of beginner salsa or any dance I 'v e spent time on (Rhumba, Tango, Fox Trot, Waltz, etc) and just danced to the music and feeling it; isn't that playing with the music? Hitting breaks, dramatically drag out a pattern for effect, adding some styling from other generes?

[alemana]

mixing salsa is evil.

[Blaxican]

I hate also how DJ's will play sound effects and use a lot of "voice overs". Use re-remixes of remixes

[yippee1999]

yeah, I think what sweavo says is right on. I also think that, beyond a lack of musicality, not hitting a break may also be due to someone not feeling totally comfortable yet with "non-comformity" of what they've been taught, which in many instances, is to dance through the break. Or that, while they may have a good ear, they are still too "nervous" dancing to allow themselves to really "hear" or feel the music, hence the opportunities for breaks. I DO think it helps though if you are already familiar with the song, so you know when to expect the breaks.

[Vince A]

From eijhout:
Remember, "hitting the breaks" is a long way from "musical interpretation". All the great dancers, swing or otherwise, agree that you need to *become* the music, not just dance to it. A deaf person should be able to look at you and understand the music, though they are not hearing it. In fact, if all you do is patterns, you're not considered a great dancer, no matter how wonderful your posture is, and no matter how complicated your patterns are. To be a great dancer, you have to be able to match your moves to the mood of the music, and above all else, PLAY WITH YOUR PARTNER.


Anticipate the break soon enough to get into a position for something dramatic to do during the break:
a syncopation,
a spin or a continuous series of turns
a lift
a body waves, flash movements, kicks, jumps... Do something not in the typical for that dance style movement - a hip hop move, maybe?

[noobster]

a body waves, flash movements, kicks, jumps... Do something not in the typical for that dance style movement - a hip hop move, maybe?

omg. I am glad there are people out there who don't think this is bizarre. Last night there was a little break that sounded kind of hip-hoppy and without thinking I did a little up-and-down thing with my foot that was a little more hip-hop than salsa. My partner thought this was hilarious and started feeding it back to me at completely inappropriate moments for the remainder of the song. Lol. Dern salsa purists.

[Sabor]

hitting breaks.. or musical highlights etc.. is essential..
its 'blasphemous' not to..
far as i see.. generally.. people don't

why they don't.. there could be many justifications.. yet, i simply turn a blind eye to them cause.. hey.. u could be a great person and fab personality etc.. etc.. but far as 'dancing' is concerned.. u could be mawing the lawn for all i care.. there's a pattern of motion there too

[sweavo]

there's a pattern of motion there too

hahaha! quality!

[yippee1999]

You know... all this talk of becoming the music... matching your moves to the music... if I were to be REALLY true to myself and dance what I feel to salsa, it would mean doing basically no partner work, and just DANCING.... sorta like you might do at a nightclub (not a salsa club), where everybody is freestyling and doing their own thing. How I wish there were clubs or socials that played salsa music, where everybody could just freestyle. But it seems that that is just not the norm, and that everybody is expected to partner dance, meaning patterns, etc. Perhaps I feel that as the follow, I am further stilted, because I can't totally feel the music or put partner moves to the music, because that's the man's role, and I'm simply supposed to just "do" whatever he directs me to, so I'm concentrating more on just watching for his direction.

[Sagitta]

You know... all this talk of becoming the music... matching your moves to the music... if I were to be REALLY true to myself and dance what I feel to salsa, it would mean doing basically no partner work, and just DANCING.... sorta like you might do at a nightclub (not a salsa club), where everybody is freestyling and doing their own thing. How I wish there were clubs or socials that played salsa music, where everybody could just freestyle. But it seems that that is just not the norm, and that everybody is expected to partner dance, meaning patterns, etc. Perhaps I feel that as the follow, I am further stilted, because I can't totally feel the music or put partner moves to the music, because that's the man's role, and I'm simply supposed to just "do" whatever he directs me to, so I'm concentrating more on just watching for his direction.



It is a matter of finding expression within the given framework. Of finding the right leaders. There are quite a few followers who are uncomfortable doing shines or the salsa freestyling that you are talking about. I let them go for a while and they just look lost so I quickly scoop them up again. I also often give followers a lot of freedom in interpretation of my suggestions. Some take it and I get my horizons broadened as a result.

Lastly I totally disagree with equating partner dancing to patterns. That comment is the sort of thing that gets me going off the deep end. Patterns is not partner dancing. That is mechanical movement to the music. If that is what I did I don't think I would still be doing it. Probably found another passion by now. If you wish to freestyle why don't you do so when salsa is playing? Saying that it is "not the norm" so you don't do it is doing one person a disservice - yourself. If I wish to freestyle I do so even with everyone else partner dancing. I have a good time and don't see why you shouldn't too.

Saturday night they played quite a few cha cha chas. Now there weren't any followers who I felt allowed me to express myself the way I enjoy doing so. So for one song I danced to a cha cha cha by myself. :-)

End of rant.

[yippee1999]

Sagitta: I think what I'm talking about can be summed up in a phrase you used "within the given framework". I'd rather there be no framework at all. That's not to say that I don't like partner dancing, but sometimes I just want to let totally loose and do my own thing, and not just for shines.

I have encountered a few leaders who really seemed to be doing their own thing, which then allowed me to respond in whatever way I felt appropriate, and I DID have more fun. But my experience has shown me that most of the leads I've danced with do seem to rely on patterns, and that if I do not respond in the "correct" way, some of them will clearly be irritated.

That's great that you danced to a cha cha all by yourself. I however don't have that kind of confidence unfortunately.... not if everybody else around me is dancing in couples, and it's that kind of environment.... where the dancing is understood to be couples dancing. Now if I were at an actual "club", where many people are dancing as two's, and there are a few three's, a few " soloists" etc., I'd be more apt to dance on my own if so inclined.

[MacMoto]

That's great that you danced to a cha cha all by yourself. I however don't have that kind of confidence unfortunately....
I do a lot of dancing on my own at salsa venues. I find it difficult not to respond to music (unless I really don't like -- or get -- the song), and since there are always too many women and you can't get a leader for every song all night, I find myself on my own by the dancefloor fairly often, so I just dance to the song freestyle. Not because I'm confident or anything -- I just don't care how I look. The more you do it, the less self-conscious you become about doing it -- trust me on that. Most people are too busy dancing to notice anyway, and people who do notice just think it's amusing. And it's a good way of signalling to guys that you like to freestyle. Sometimes I freestyle as I walk to the dancefloor with the leader, and often the leader gets the hint and gives me a bit more space than normal for doing my thing ;).

[Sagitta]

But my experience has shown me that most of the leads I've danced with do seem to rely on patterns, and that if I do not respond in the "correct" way, some of them will clearly be irritated.


That's too bad.

Guess you'll come down to central ny one of these days to dance with me. ;-)


And just as MM said I just don't care what others think. I'm there to enjoy myself and so I do it.

I've actually had followers come and ask me to danec when doing that and warn them that I'm willing to dance, but it will be very different. For instance, last Tuesday I'm dancing bachata with the hip movement on the 3 rather than the 4, which is one of the reasons I'm not dancing with someone. She wanted to dance with me even though I warned was only going to dance on3.

[Sagitta]

I just checked your photo album y! Your looks sure don't give any reason for you to feel self-conscious. ;-)

[Sabor]

also.. incase u dont hit the breaks.. u can try to slap or smack them.. u know..

lol

[Sabor]

or maybe.. pinch them

[Vibrance]

or maybe.. pinch them

I never hit breaks - I'm a lover, not a fighter :)

[lavaboi555]

Originally Posted by yippee1999 http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=363371#post363371)
...not sure what it means to "hit" a break. You mean to add some type of emphasis, such as a dramatic pause, when you normally wouldn't be doing a step with your foot?

[quote=tj;363380]Yup. In most scenes, beginning to intermediate dancers will just dance thru a break in the music, still doing their basic step.


I'm just beginning to hear the breaks and I'm trying to figure out where throw in a dramatic pause. How long do these breaks usually last (half a count or a full count?) and do they start and end on any specific count? Meaning, does the break happen on the 123 or 567? Does the break end on any specific count?

Or another way of phrasing the question: would i enter the break on a
123, dramatic pause, then resume on 567 if i'm dancing on1?
or is it 567, dramatic pause, then resuming on 123?

[tj]

Yup. In most scenes, beginning to intermediate dancers will just dance thru a break in the music, still doing their basic step.


I'm just beginning to hear the breaks and I'm trying to figure out where throw in a dramatic pause. How long do these breaks usually last (half a count or a full count?) and do they start and end on any specific count? Meaning, does the break happen on the 123 or 567? Does the break end on any specific count?

Or another way of phrasing the question: would i enter the break on a
123, dramatic pause, then resume on 567 if i'm dancing on1?
or is it 567, dramatic pause, then resuming on 123?


Hey, welcome to DF!

I think most breaks ( at least in songs that I can think of) usually are on the 1. And yes, they will last either a half or full count, but it's up to you as to when to restart as long as you can communicate it properly to your partner.

[salsamale]

I had the most difficult time staying on beat with one song last night. It was filled with breaks that, I could have sworn, started on 1, lasted for 4 counts, and then started on 1 again, instead of 5. After the first couple of breaks, I decided to just dance the basic right through these breaks, to work on my timing, and I still kept finding myself off by 4, after each and almost every break. Do salsa songs sometimes do this (next time I'll ask the DJ)? It was only this one song.

[tj]

I had the most difficult time staying on beat with one song last night. It was filled with breaks that, I could have sworn, started on 1, lasted for 4 counts, and then started on 1 again, instead of 5. After the first couple of breaks, I decided to just dance the basic right through these breaks, to work on my timing, and I still kept finding myself off by 4, after each and almost every break. Do salsa songs sometimes do this (next time I'll ask the DJ)? It was only this one song.
Yeah, I know a song or two that does that. What should happen is that you'll eventually get familiar enough with the song that you'll (subconsciously if not consciously) know what to do.

[salsamale]

Yeah, I know a song or two that does that. What should happen is that you'll eventually get familiar enough with the song that you'll (subconsciously if not consciously) know what to do.
Whew, thanks, so it might have been one of those songs. I get off beat at times, but that one was yikes! :)

[Sagitta]

I had the most difficult time staying on beat with one song last night. It was filled with breaks that, I could have sworn, started on 1, lasted for 4 counts, and then started on 1 again, instead of 5. After the first couple of breaks, I decided to just dance the basic right through these breaks, to work on my timing, and I still kept finding myself off by 4, after each and almost every break. Do salsa songs sometimes do this (next time I'll ask the DJ)? It was only this one song.oh...what fun! I know it is quite tough to do...now..but eventually you'll hear that and get excited at the opportunities available.

[salsamale]

oh...what fun! I know it is quite tough to do...now..but eventually you'll hear that and get excited at the opportunities available.
Ha! What was worse was that I was dancing with an almost rank beginner, and after about the 6th or 7th pause, to get back on beat, and this was just doing the basic, she asked me if I was a beginner. How could I respond, but to say yes! Basic mambo, pause, basic mambo, pause, basic mambo, pause, go search for lost confidence in doing even the basic mambo on beat, pause.

[Sagitta]

Ha! What was worse was that I was dancing with an almost rank beginner, and after about the 6th or 7th pause, to get back on beat, and this was just doing the basic, she asked me if I was a beginner. How could I respond, but to say yes! Basic mambo, pause, basic mambo, pause, basic mambo, pause, go search for lost confidence in doing even the basic mambo on beat, pause.It so happens to me sometimes when I'm having an off night...and I feel bad for the follower as there isn't much I can do. Then I feel bad if I sit out as there usually is an excess of followers too. What is a guy to do? ;-)

[sweavo]

I had the most difficult time staying on beat with one song last night. It was filled with breaks that, I could have sworn, started on 1, lasted for 4 counts, and then started on 1 again, instead of 5. After the first couple of breaks, I decided to just dance the basic right through these breaks, to work on my timing, and I still kept finding myself off by 4, after each and almost every break. Do salsa songs sometimes do this (next time I'll ask the DJ)? It was only this one song.

Yes, it's called Clave Reversal and it's a hot topic! (Search on google for all the painful information you could wish for) You can either know where the reversals happen, anticipate them, adjust after you hear them, or ignore them! It's good to have a couple of 4-beat moves up your sleeve if you want to do anything but ignore them!

[tangotime]

As Steve said, -- also known as a "pick up " bar . Fairly common in music arrangement . Kudos to you for recognising same !!

[salsamale]

Thanks for everyone's insight, and words of encouragement - could you tell my ego was bruised? (still kinda' sore :))

New support group: Novice Salseros Dealing with Ego-Bruising by Clave Reversal.
Next meeting: at the pick up bar :).

[dancedude314]

What does the term "hitting a break" mean? I keep seeing references to this term, and I'm curious to know what it means.

Also, why does the count 1-2-3 5-6-7 mean? Aren't there eight beats?

[tangotime]

Thank you , someone else , who sees the need to count the bar.

The " break " is the accented beat upon which you are breaking, as in 1, 2 or 3 . The general reference, is to the number of movements being employed in a given sequence .Slow is given a value of 2 beats ,and a quick , 1. So-- that gives a q.q.s. rhythm count a value of 4 beats .If you are in the u.k , am doing a workshop on sat 31st.mar., and will cover the usage of both methods .

[MacMoto]

The " break " is the accented beat upon which you are breaking, as in 1, 2 or 3 .
You are talking about the break as in the step pattern (forward break/back break), but I don't think that's the subject of this thread...

What does the term "hitting a break" mean? I keep seeing references to this term, and I'm curious to know what it means.

Also, why does the count 1-2-3 5-6-7 mean? Aren't there eight beats?

I'm not a musician so I tend to use musical terms loosely, but when I say "breaks in the music", I generally mean "the dramatic bits", often with a big bang on the percussions, a big blast of horns, or even a pause. The "big finale" (where many dancers opt for a dip) is the most obviously dramatic part of the music, but there are often other dramatic bits, which I usually refer to as breaks. They often signify the end of one part of the music before going into the next part -- e.g., many songs have a break at the end of the intro and also at the end of the descarga section before the song goes back to its main phrase. It's very satisfying to hit those dramatic bits by doing something dramatic to match, like a dip, a big open break with a throw of a head, a dramatic stop, etc.

As for 1-2-3 5-6-7, that's just a convention -- those are the beats on wchich you usually step, so in lots of salsa classes that's how the teachers count. That doesn't mean there aren't the beats 4 and 8, but counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 needs more breath :p.

[sweavo]

There's a few meanings to "break" - the break step is the step on which you change direction... if you dance on1 you break on 1 and 5.

But in music a break is where most of the band drops out - the music effectively stops - and then comes back in again. If you know "Merecumbe" it's got some really clear breaks where the band stops, then comes back in with a big buildup before resuming the rhythm.

AFAICT the thread "hitting the breaks" is about being able to spot when this will happen, so that you can stop when the music stops, and go when the music goes, instead of doing the dance equivalent of shouting over the music in a crowded bar and then the music finishes just as you say something compromising! You don't want to have just committed to a fancy move then be forced to executed it to silence in the music!

(shouting over music): "I WAS OUTRAGED! HE TOLD ME THAT... "
music stops
(still shouting): " ... ALL FAT PEOPLE ARE GAY!"
looks around silent room at a bunch of people staring at him...

[tangotime]

When the poster made a numerical reference, it spoke ( to me ) more about the value of the beats. However,I could have misunderstood his post. Maybe they will clarify ?

[devane]

To be a great dancer, you have to be able to match your moves to the mood of the music.......

Yes, to dance it requires more than just dancing to a beat but in my experience you are lucky if you see people even doing that. It's mostly 99% of the people I see dancing to their own beat.
But it's rarely taught anyway so what can we expect? The excuse teachers use like students get bored so they water down the art of dancing is unforgivable. The music is just as important as the moves.
So called advanced dancers who don't know ...
Where the 1 or 2 is.
What a clave , conga is, can't name ANY salsa artist.
Yeah, sure they're dancers........ in their heads.

So concepts of hitting breaks, fitting your sequences into the song, or interpretation of the mood of a song are things not to be expected in a class.
Things discussed on these boards are far more advanced than things discussed in the classes I've been to. I've even met people who don't know what style they do or what On1 or On2 means. I'm sure I would be the same if it didn't visit these boards or buy a load of DVD's.

Dancing without Musicality isn't dancing. Who can you dance without the music. You may as well classify it as a style of Kung Fu or maybe label it Aerobics because without the music you're only learning a physical skill. Ok martial arts have a spiritual side too but tend not to be taught too!


Here's an old article from Edie
Focus on the Music FIRST … The Beat (Timing) SECOND…!!! (http://www.salsastories.com/stories_e-f/Focus_on_the_Music_FIRST.html)
I saw this one when I was a beginner.
It took me a long time to actually understand it. I'm not 100% there yet but now certain things feel wrong if I'm not dancing with the song.

This is nothing to do with dancing on time. I'm sure most people will distinguish that?

[Josh]

Also, why does the count 1-2-3 5-6-7 mean? Aren't there eight beats?

The 4 and the 8 are held, and as someone else said, counting just "123..567.." allows the person counting the chance to breathe (just try counting 12345678 over and over, and see how quickly you will run out of air!). Rumba (international, not American) timing is usually the same as salsa timing (quick, quick, slow), with the first quick on count 2. It is sometimes counted: 2, 3, 41 (spoken as "two....three....four one....") to emphasize that the 1 is not a regular weight change or action, but that it is held, just as the 4 is held in salsa on1 timing. So, for salsa you could count: "one.. two.. three-four..". Maybe one reason people don't usually is because the word "seven" is a two-syllable word, and it feels and sounds awkward to say "five.. six.. se-ven-eight.." (whereas in rumba, for example, it's not a problem, as we just count 1-4 usually).

[borikensalsero]

I don't particularly adhere to one rule as a must in dancing, such as the one to stop, to shut up when the music does like wise... the one that is perceived as knowledge of the structure of the music, especially, when feelings are still being driven during that audible stop, as well as the continuation of time, not to mention that the stop is also part of the song… though no sound has happened, the song has in fact continued... It never means that the band stopped playing, rather they’ve allowed silence to become the sound of the music... if the dancer is attuned enough, the dancer is able to communicate through that stop, blending as an extension of the very feelings exuded by the band, by each other...

We rationalize musicality and assume that it is physically meshing to the structure of the music, disregarding our feelings. If we can't feel, then we aren't really dancing, and I mean that well beyond a robotic break, robotic smile or regurgitation of 5 years of classes that because we’ve taken enough of them we have a conscious knowledge of musical breakdown. Musicality is dependant on emotions generated by the music and not all songs, not all measures, not all breaks mean the same... There are breaks that speak of a stop, a rest, while others speak of smiling, of flirting, speak of the soothing of two bodies…

It is what is done, not how is done... If I keep screaming during that audible pause everyone will stare at my lack of etiquette, even knowledge and rightly so, If I’m dumb, then dumb I will display. However, if I lower my tone, whisper sweet nothings into her ear, while forcing both dancers too feel that stop, not as such, but as our union just before we part when sound re-occurs, then I've accomplished a musicality well beyond the intentions of programmatically following ones and zeros.

Though, it is rather funny to hear someone scream when the only sound is silence screaming at us to hush…

If we want musicality, or ability to interpret the sound of silence beyond stopping because it rationally makes a good debate, then we must listen to ourselves being driven by the song, all of the song, not just the apparent parts… Get there then notice how that stop still makes your pores raise, your heart swell, your smile cease, just learn to treat silence further than knowledge allows…

I should have read the thread first, though...

[dancedude314]

Thanks for the answers to my questions--all of them were helpful.

[basicarita]

why they don't.. there could be many justifications.. yet, i simply turn a blind eye to them cause.. hey.. u could be a great person and fab personality etc.. etc.. but far as 'dancing' is concerned.. <i>u could be mawing the lawn for all i care..</i>

I don't care who you are; that's funny right there ... :D

[timbafreak]

Hmmm, this is why I end up dancing to my favourite songs alone. Hmmm, I'm only on page 1, let me continue...

[jennyisdancing]

Dancing without Musicality isn't dancing. Who can you dance without the music. You may as well classify it as a style of Kung Fu or maybe label it Aerobics because without the music you're only learning a physical skill.

ITA Devane. I posted a similar theme under one of the other dance styles but the idea applies to any dancing at all. I've seen some some people post the opinion that basic musicality (i.e. dancing with the music) is an advanced concept that can be learned later on, after the dancer has mastered other things. A few even criticized me for expecting too much and suggested that I stick to freestyle!

And in talking with certain people in my dance classes, it's the same thing. When I express the idea that you're supposed to dance to, and feel, the music, I get blank looks! This totally astonishes me.

I can only guess that some people are not dancing in order to express themselves; they take up dancing just to get out of the house, meet people, or stay in shape. Essentially, to them, it IS like a form of aerobics but with nicer clothes and being with the opposite sex.

Dance teachers don't help the situation either. They jump right into teaching the steps whether the students have rhythm or not. I would love to see teachers spend a little time just playing the music first, and making sure everyone can follow the beat by tapping their feet or clapping their hands.

[tangotime]

Thanks for the " blanket " statement-- ALL ?-- it depends greatly from whom you take your instruction, true in any form of learning.

I empathise with your feeling , and know, that yes, there are people teaching, who have no concept, of many of the aspects required, to develop understanding that would be applicable to the task at hand .

Like most forms of learning, one sometimes must spoon feed information, and at what period, is dependant upon those attending . I will agree--- sooner the better-- but not always appropriate in very early stages.

Rhythmical application, is the " Musical Icing"
on the proverbial cake-- you cannot add it , until the cake is made .

[Steve Pastor]

Salsa, Argentine Tango, country western two step...
It don't matter to me.
If you aren't moving to the music you aren't dancing. You are doing steps and "moves".
When I learned Argentine Tango, (the latest in a number of dances) I basically refused to move until I felt the music. Yes, I stood out like a sore thumb. And I took a great deal of flak. But, you know what? It was worth it.

I have come to the point where, if someone points out a "good dancer" who is not moving to the music, I will state, without equivocation, that that can't be good if they aren't with the music.

Dancers in general (the great majority of whom show no evidence of hearing the music, let alone showing evidence of "advanced" musicality) would be better served by instructors who build "moving to the music" into each and every lesson.
Course, that would be in a perfect world. Because you have to have students if you are going to teach, and most people don;t know the difference.
Hey, here's a thought. Maybe this should be part of basic education. You know. Teach kids about music and dance, and like that. Like, public education to foster the common good.

Nah.
Governments just waste the tax money they collect. (Just kidding about this last sentence.)

[jennyisdancing]

Salsa, Argentine Tango, country western two step...
It don't matter to me.
If you aren't moving to the music you aren't dancing. You are doing steps and "moves".
When I learned Argentine Tango, (the latest in a number of dances) I basically refused to move until I felt the music. Yes, I stood out like a sore thumb. And I took a great deal of flak. But, you know what? It was worth it.

I have come to the point where, if someone points out a "good dancer" who is not moving to the music, I will state, without equivocation, that that can't be good if they aren't with the music.

Dancers in general (the great majority of whom show no evidence of hearing the music, let alone showing evidence of "advanced" musicality) would be better served by instructors who build "moving to the music" into each and every lesson.
Course, that would be in a perfect world. Because you have to have students if you are going to teach, and most people don;t know the difference.
Hey, here's a thought. Maybe this should be part of basic education. You know. Teach kids about music and dance, and like that. Like, public education to foster the common good.

Nah.
Governments just waste the tax money they collect. (Just kidding about this last sentence.)

ITA! Perfectly said.

Sorry tangotime, rhythmic application is not "icing on the cake". It IS the cake - or at least one of the essential ingredients.

[tangotime]

If you can put icing on a cake that isnt even baked -- tell me your secret ?-- the discussion is not whether it is- or is not -- important, but when to introduce the ingredient .
Have taught comp. dancing for a number of yrs, and if you believe for one second, that is my # one objective ( icing ), you would be correct-- but-- there would be many other " ingredients " needed to be added, before that could take effect .

[Don Silver]

ITA Devane. I posted a similar theme under one of the other dance styles but the idea applies to any dancing at all. I've seen some some people post the opinion that basic musicality (i.e. dancing with the music) is an advanced concept that can be learned later on, after the dancer has mastered other things. A few even criticized me for expecting too much and suggested that I stick to freestyle!
<snip>
Dance teachers don't help the situation either. They jump right into teaching the steps whether the students have rhythm or not. I would love to see teachers spend a little time just playing the music first, and making sure everyone can follow the beat by tapping their feet or clapping their hands.

In a group class, students often have different goals than the serious dancers (and teachers) who frequent a board like this. If an instructor take too much time discussing the music to beginning students, they act like you're wasting their time. Some already know the music and they just want the steps, some don't know anything, and some just want to meet someone and pretend they care about the dance.

If the student is taking a series, where they are committing to a set of classes, then the instructor can do more in that area. If you teach beginners, you have to find something they like, so they will have some fun and return to learn more. When someone wants to learn, then it's easy to teach.

Across the spectrum of instructors, some are more tuned into the music than others. But even those who are like you and love the music often leave some of the musicality out in the early stages.

For some people, learning about the music is not simple, they need some ear training and to actually start listening in a way that is totally new to them. It can be work, and most beginners don't sign up for more "work". They think they can start this week and with just "one or two more lessons" they will ready for 'Dancing with the Stars'. People on a board like this know a great dancer is generally a few years away.

I wish it was different, but beginners often simply want to hold someone else a while, and not look stupid. They are primarily focused on getting the footwork to the point where they are moving without stepping on their partner, and not looking like a grey haired white guy.

[jennyisdancing]

most beginners don't sign up for more "work". They think they can start this week and with just "one or two more lessons" they will ready for 'Dancing with the Stars'. People on a board like this know a great dancer is generally a few years away.

I wish it was different, but beginners often simply want to hold someone else a while, and not look stupid. They are primarily focused on getting the footwork to the point where they are moving without stepping on their partner, and not looking like a grey haired white guy.

Understood...that's what I meant to say but I think you expressed it better. I fully understand and respect the fact that many people don't plan to become "serious dancers" and just want to look acceptable. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I mean no criticism of it. I have many friends who never studied dance their entire lives and just now are learning and having a great time; it's wonderful.

My point is that IMO their goal could possibly be better and even more quickly accomplished if the musicality was better integrated into the learning process. If the student understands the rhythm and structure of the music a little bit, it will give him/her a frame of reference for the steps - i.e. if you're learning, for example, an eight-count pattern, and you can feel those eight beats (normally two bars) in the music, then the steps will come much more naturally and quickly to you.

[dansah]

The original question in this thread asked about the handling of breaks in the music. The poster said people just danced thru them 123...7. There are, as mentioned by Sweavo, different types of breaks. In some, the music absolutely stops... for a while then starts on 1. In others, there is a dramatic change in the feel of the music but rhythmically it continues. For the former, you have to anticipate it and have a plan hopefully by the previous 1. For instance: Copa to Lasso position and you and partner are attached at the hip and stationary for the break. Or 567 into sweatheart position with a dramatic stance on 1 into a freespin. For the latter- dips, caresses, poses are effective.
The topic is generally more applicable to the more advanced dancer. We seem to have many levels of experience here so I don't think that its possible to expect an intermediate leader to be able to handle some of the expectations of musicality mentioned. No doubt a noble goal but a follow who turns her nose up at an intermediate lead dancing thru breaks isn't being nice.

[Steve Pastor]

"follow who turns her nose up at an intermediate lead dancing thru breaks isn't being nice" Agreed. But, a mind set in which someone shouldn't / couldn't learn to use those pauses in the music isn't very nice either.
The trick, I think, is to raise the bar just a bit every now and then, even with your social dance partners.
How did that story about the light and the cave go?

[basicarita]

If the student is taking a series, where they are committing to a set of classes, then the instructor can do more in that area. If you teach beginners, you have to find something they like, so they will have some fun and return to learn more. When someone wants to learn, then it's easy to teach.

Across the spectrum of instructors, some are more tuned into the music than others. But even those who are like you and love the music often leave some of the musicality out in the early stages.


So Don, if one is a beginning-to-intermediate dance student, but a more advanced musician, what would you say is the appropriate way to communicate to your instructor that you want to continue to learn to dance with the breaks -- and be firm about that if they're dismissive of it -- while still being respectful of the instructor's knowledge?

[Don Silver]

<snip>
The topic is generally more applicable to the more advanced dancer. We seem to have many levels of experience here so I don't think that its possible to expect an intermediate leader to be able to handle some of the expectations of musicality mentioned. No doubt a noble goal but a follow who turns her nose up at an intermediate lead dancing thru breaks isn't being nice.

Maybe it applies to intermediate dancers, but understanding the music can/should happen early in learning to dance. Nobody hits all the breaks, but since you can practice listening/understanding the music while driving your car, most people can get to hearing the music structure in months if they use their drive time to practice.

A beginner should be made aware of the concept (not necessarily on the dance floor) and then as they progress they can integrate the concepts into their dancing. The bigger issue is many guys focus on advanced moves while having a very limited concept of how the music works. Ideally the music education parallels their movement/pattern development, and then they need fewer patterns.

It also depends on the music. If the break repeats 3 times in the song, it's realistic to miss the first one, maybe the second, but I'd submit you should do "something" by the 3rd break if you are intermediate.

Because songs have a repeating structure, it's something anybody can do if they decide it's worth the effort, and in many cases it's not limited to advanced dancers. We are all a work in progress, so awareness is the first step.

[Don Silver]

So Don, if one is a beginning-to-intermediate dance student, but a more advanced musician, what would you say is the appropriate way to communicate to your instructor that you want to continue to learn to dance with the breaks -- and be firm about that if they're dismissive of it -- while still being respectful of the instructor's knowledge?

Hmmm... Good question and I'm not sure, because it depends on the instructor and the situation. (Are you taking classes or privates?)

My overall theory is: If the instructor understands and values the music, that will show through in their teaching, even if they don't stop and take 15 minutes to explain things in depth. Most classes should have references to the music and not just the steps.

My first impression based on what you said is to find a different instructor OR take privates. In my mind, all instructors should be introducing people to the music early on, and while teaching the steps should be including references to the music. In other words, it should be "sprinkled in" while discussing combinations and during practice times. If you are the only musician in the class, the instructor may not focus on those aspects because simple concepts for you may be over everybody elses head (depends on the situation)

It won't take much since you are already a musician. Now it's a matter of pointing out how the dance fits with the music.

While my experience says taking 15 minutes (or more) to discuss a song would help a beginner get to a higher level MUCH faster, I would rarely do that in a group situation, unless it was a longer class OR part of a series, where the student has committed to XX classes.

Note that I teach musicality classes (at the SalsaMambo Festival in Palm Springs) where the whole class is dedicated to the music, but then people attending know we will be listening, feeling, and exposing the way the music is constructed, and relating it to the dancing.

When teaching beginning classes most instructors (including me) integrate some of musicality concepts as we are teaching basic footwork (or they should, from my point of view). I want my students to know that when we take our first step, there is a logical point in the music where that step makes more sense. As we practice to music I often point out aspects of the music I believe people will find interesting, hoping to peak their curiosity so they want to learn more. One the other hand, I do NOT take 10 minutes and have them listen to a tune

In privates it's a different matter. There we are focused on "accellerated learning". I know my students are making an investment, so I'll discuss the value of investing time in the music early on... I make sure they understand the return on investment from breaking down a song or two, so they can start practicing in the car and get the music in their heads.

I want them working toward feeling it as their body movements/pattern vacabulary grows. If they are unaware, they may or may not be hearing some important clues in the music.

I don't know if I really answered your question, so let me know if I can clarify any points.

[Don Silver]

<snip>

My point is that IMO their goal could possibly be better and even more quickly accomplished if the musicality was better integrated into the learning process. If the student understands the rhythm and structure of the music a little bit, it will give him/her a frame of reference for the steps - i.e. if you're learning, for example, an eight-count pattern, and you can feel those eight beats (normally two bars) in the music, then the steps will come much more naturally and quickly to you.

You put it better than me, but we are in total agreement on your message above. The sooner a newer dancer is aware that music and dance are intimate partners (or should be) the sooner that dancer will move to another level.

[basicarita]

Hmmm... Good question and I'm not sure, because it depends on the instructor and the situation. (Are you taking classes or privates?)

I've taken classes in the past. I was also in a non-partner dance troupe in college (jazz and modern).

In the quest for a good instructor for privates, I'm looking to find one where I don't have to struggle with the instructor for the first half of the lesson over whether or not we're going to dance to the actual music.

(The above is more of a "hit-the-breaks"/"where do the phrases stop and start" issue in salsa. It's more of a "WHY are we doing 6-count step sets in 8-count phrases and NO I don't feel like counting to 24 beats b/c then I can't concentrate on what I'm actually dancing" issue in lindy.)

I notice that Edie is coming to the NYC Salsa Congress at the end of the summer to teach a workshop. Are you coming to teach a workshop as well?

[Don Silver]

I've taken classes in the past. I was also in a non-partner dance troupe in college (jazz and modern).

In the quest for a good instructor for privates, I'm looking to find one where I don't have to struggle with the instructor for the first half of the lesson over whether or not we're going to dance to the actual music.

You have it right, I often use classes to see if I like the instructors style before considering privates with them. They should be talking about the music even if they don't break it down. BEFORE I take a private I want to be sure they get the fact that the music is foundational to dance. Some are into that and some are into teaching moves. With your jazz/modern background, you'll recognize great instructors quickly.


(The above is more of a "hit-the-breaks"/"where do the phrases stop and start" issue in salsa. It's more of a "WHY are we doing 6-count step sets in 8-count phrases and NO I don't feel like counting to 24 beats b/c then I can't concentrate on what I'm actually dancing" issue in lindy.)

I'm not clear on the above statements. Maybe you can reword that for me?


I notice that Edie is coming to the NYC Salsa Congress at the end of the summer to teach a workshop. Are you coming to teach a workshop as well?

I doubt it... I have my classes here in LA (at Mama Juana's), although I teach with her at her LA workshops and at her Palm Springs events. Edie is a master instructor and has forgotten more than most will ever know. Yet I've seen her change her mind if presented a reasonable case for change. She never feels like she knows enough and keeps looking for new approaches. I always learn a ton from working with her.

[Don Silver]

<snip>

I notice that Edie is coming to the NYC Salsa Congress at the end of the summer to teach a workshop. Are you coming to teach a workshop as well?

One more thing: If I were looking for someone to take privates with, I'd talk with everyone around me to see who they like and why. I know NYC is full of excellent instructors/dancers, so your issue is probably going to be too many great choices and it will be location, cost, and availability.

If you attend Edie's workshop, she tends to know the great instructors and may have some suggestions for you.

Please let us know who you find and how it works for you!

[tangotime]

Why are you doing 6 movements ?-- you are actually doing 3 to each bar-- the value of each beat-- q=1 / q =1 and slow= 2. --- 4 beats total, repeated on the second half of the octave .

If you want to count,--- count in bars -- as in qq1--qq2- qq3 etc , this will come out to a series of eights , sixteens and thirtytwos .

This is where chorus and refrains repeat ( or not ) be careful-- there is often a 4 bar " switch " in the middle of the song .

[Don Silver]

Why are you doing 6 movements ?-- you are actually doing 3 to each bar-- the value of each beat-- q=1 / q =1 and slow= 2. --- 4 beats total, repeated on the second half of the octave .

If you want to count,--- count in bars -- as in qq1--qq2- qq3 etc , this will come out to a series of eights , sixteens and thirtytwos .

This is where chorus and refrains repeat ( or not ) be careful-- there is often a 4 bar " switch " in the middle of the song .

It's too bad musicians and dancers don't count the same, but I've always been uncomfortable with the "quick, quick, slow" (qqs) counting concept. (I've seen some excellent instructors use it, so I recognize it's a valid method even if I prefer something else...)

In my mind, the words "quick" and "slow" still require someone to understand that "slow" is really two counts (using 8 count), so why not just use the counts? And I'm not clear what instructors using that method do when footwork or hand motions fall between the "quick" counts. (quick, quicky, quick, quicky, slow? )

QQS does have the advantage/disadvantage that you can ignore 1 and start the QQS on 2 or 6 if you wish, but I'll trade that off for using the numbers and being able to sub-divide when needed.

At some point then a dancer has to learn how the QQS relates to the count in the music, so starting with a counting concept makes more sense to me.

Lots of people use this method, but I don't see the advantages overall.

Please let me know what I'm missing!

[tangotime]

Being ballroom trained , that is the method that has stood the test of time ( 90 plus yrs ) . My theory is this-- numbers do not speak to speed perse, they indicate for sure , the amount of movement that is required to complete a given sequence, but they do not tell me how fast and how to allocate my time.
Most trained prof. use a combo. of # and rhythmic explanations in their teachings ( I count weaves in my b/room numerically, having established they are all quicks and the # of slows on a spin turn numer. )

As important, when I am coaching Amat. and or Prof. competitors, I need to know the # of bars in a given sequence, as well as the total amount with which I have to work. I have taught mambo and salsa since the fifties among the other genres I teach, and have never had a problem , getting a very quick understanding from any of my students with this method .

To go back to the q posed by the poster-- they did not understand , how 6 went into eight,--I believe I answered that question with an appropriate response .
By the way, this topic has been discussed to death , and the majority of sasla teachers, have, as again I have stated, little or no formal training ,and of course, they pass down, like we all do, the methods with which they have been shown.

Choose what you wish to achieve your ends--- I am required by my soc. to examine in the same methods, in which I teach .

lastly -- do you mean footwork ? or foot positions ?--2 different animals

[basicarita]

One more thing: If I were looking for someone to take privates with, I'd talk with everyone around me to see who they like and why. I know NYC is full of excellent instructors/dancers, so your issue is probably going to be too many great choices and it will be location, cost, and availability.

If you attend Edie's workshop, she tends to know the great instructors and may have some suggestions for you.

Please let us know who you find and how it works for you!

Thanks, Don, for taking the time to respond and for your helpful suggestions.

[Don Silver]

Being ballroom trained , that is the method that has stood the test of time ( 90 plus yrs ) . My theory is this-- numbers do not speak to speed perse, they indicate for sure , the amount of movement that is required to complete a given sequence, but they do not tell me how fast and how to allocate my time.
Most trained prof. use a combo. of # and rhythmic explanations in their teachings ( I count weaves in my b/room numerically, having established they are all quicks and the # of slows on a spin turn numer. )

As important, when I am coaching Amat. and or Prof. competitors, I need to know the # of bars in a given sequence, as well as the total amount with which I have to work. I have taught mambo and salsa since the fifties among the other genres I teach, and have never had a problem , getting a very quick understanding from any of my students with this method .

<snip>
By the way, this topic has been discussed to death , and the majority of sasla teachers, have, as again I have stated, little or no formal training ,and of course, they pass down, like we all do, the methods with which they have been shown.

Choose what you wish to achieve your ends--- I am required by my soc. to examine in the same methods, in which I teach .

lastly -- do you mean footwork ? or foot positions ?--2 different animals

I appreciate the clarifications! And be sure that even if I don't use that method, I see it has worked for a huge set of excellent dancers, so my basic assumption is the more I know about it the better off I'll be...

In my mind, excellent instructors have two, three or more methods to teach almost any concept/move/motion, since one size rarely fits all situations.

I agree the vast majority of salsa teachers have little training. Most start teaching because someone asked them how the do "move X" or "pattern y" and they start showing what they did. Then someone will pay them to show them and they become "teachers". Some are great and most are just OK, or worse.

For my question, footwork/foot positions wouldn't make any difference, since I've seen people use the QQS concept with either. Because of my ignorance in this area, I wasn't specific. Your answer is very helpful!

[Josh]

And I'm not clear what instructors using that method do when footwork or hand motions fall between the "quick" counts. (quick, quicky, quick, quicky, slow? )

Don, usually the same as when we use numbers--"e", "and", "a". However, I prefer numbers for some dances while Q and S for others. As you mentioned, however, any decent teacher should be able to use several methods to meet the needs of his or her student!

Also, to add to the discussion, more important (IMO) than the methods used for counting is the WAY it's counted... drawing out certain beats when counting adds nice rhythmic variety and a less robotic tone to the dance. "One, two, three... fiiiiiive, six, seven" , for example.

[Don Silver]

Don, usually the same as when we use numbers--"e", "and", "a". However, I prefer numbers for some dances while Q and S for others. As you mentioned, however, any decent teacher should be able to use several methods to meet the needs of his or her student!

Also, to add to the discussion, more important (IMO) than the methods used for counting is the WAY it's counted... drawing out certain beats when counting adds nice rhythmic variety and a less robotic tone to the dance. "One, two, three... fiiiiiive, six, seven" , for example.

Well, here again one size doesn't fit all.

I have worked with instructors who draw out certain beats and it works for them. IF the students understand that the counts occur at regular intervals (like the seconds ticking on a clock) and if I draw out five I still have to have six be in the right place.

If someone draws out a certain number verbally, and then skips or delays the next number, then I'm uncomfortable with that approach. As long as the numbers are evenly spaced, I can see different inflections can work and I respect different approaches.

I view the counts as "touch points" or "lane markers". They are absolute points in time, with even intervals. That doesn't mean I have to step or move on those counts, but they are there to provide a framework.

I often use shorter sounds, but as I write this I realize I have some exceptions to that rule so I'm not totally consistent within myself. I would have to really think about when I violate my "shorter sound" concept, since it's the exception.

I appreciate your insights... They makes me think and evaluate my approaches, furthering my ongoing quest for something better than my current methods.