Asking experienced followers to dance.

[Jamie]

*sighs* ... I feel so awful.

Why do I find it so scary and intimidating to ask more experienced followers to dance?

Last night I was in a club where the standard of dancing was really quite high (relative to mine). There were lots of more experieneced (than me) followers and no matter how much I wanted to, I just couldn't ask them to dance with me and I felt really intimidated by them.

I was thinking that they'd not want to dance with me anyway, and it looked like they were constantly scanning for a great dancer and they didn't want to waste their time with me.

To be honest, most of them looked totally fantasic / gorgeous and so very elegant and moved like cats or angels or something and totally composed. How could I not be intimidated!?

I guess a part of the problem is a lack of confidence / courage on my part. I just wish I knew how to get over that. I probably am getting more confident in time (much more confident now than I was say 2 years back) but right now I don't feel too hot :-(

They also did a demo last night (2 really really good dancers) and that was the most beautiful thing to see. Seeing the the way they moved left me totally awe inspired. I would love to be a good dancer but I think I need to feel more relaxed and natural and a bit more confident asking the experienced followers to dance.

Also, I've noticed that when I do feel a bit intimidated by a follower that I'm dancing with, I tend to give up control and not lead the dance. I guess this is part of the same problem.

Anyone got any insights? Useful suggestions? Words of encouragement?

Please :-)

[Danoo]

its just your confidence
all you need is to ask a few "experts" to dance and say your quite new to salsa
you can build your confidence by going to more clubs and asking more and more people :)

[Pacion]

Jaime, just give it a try. At worst she will say no (which I hope she wouldn't) at best she will say yes. :banana: Do you have a female teacher? Maybe you could try/begin by asking her for a dance?

One of the things I try to keep in mind throughout life is - if you don't ask, you don't get. :D With that in mind, I picked up my courage with 76 hands and asked an experienced guy to dance several years ago.

I have been dancing for several years and for me, sometimes I have the *best* dances with beginners/inexperienced dancers on a night because they are doing *simple* but effective steps and there is time for me to play, enjoy the song and help boost his confidence rather than a more experienced dancer who appears to be looking at no one else other than himself in the imaginary mirror :?

When I know I have asked a teacher (one of the 'world famous ones') to dance and I have never danced with him before, I sometimes say - "Please be gentle" and give them a big smile.

Sometimes, they would smile or laugh and then often we would have (for me!) a dance that would take me up into the heavens. The dance would be heavenly not because of fancy stuff, but their leads are invariably great and if I can dance with them, I can dance with anyone else. If that high does not happen with 'normal dancers', I now have the confidence (after dancing with the 'greats') to know that it is not all my fault - because I was able to dance with the 'greats' and had compliments from onlookers afterwards, the knockon effect is the greater confidence I then have as a dancer. :D If I then dance with a 'regular' lead and he wants to try and tell me that our dance (or even I! :evil: ) was no good because I did this and this wrong, I can then tell him :tongue: :lol:

In your case, you may find that your lead/technique or even style improves because the more experienced dancer may be encouraging and she may be more responsive to what you do ie. can do a single spin in her sleep rather than having to think about it. This means that you may not then have to work/think too hard and can then think/focus on another aspect of your dancing.

Whatever you do, do continue to dance with those your level or below because you will be sharing/giving back some of what you received from the experienced followers.

If it is of any help, think about joining our "How many strangers can you dance with" Day (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5219) :wink: :D Then you can hopefully look at it from the perspective of the experienced dancers being 'strangers' to dance with rather than focussing on their dance ability and thinking whether they will say yes or no.

[Danoo]

well said there
i always ask my 2 female teachers to dance

ps. this is the only forum i know with loooooooong replys :P

[Pacion]

then read faster :tongue: :lol:

[etchuck]

My thoughts since I am intimidated by asking experienced salsa dancers:

1) Damn she's hot and cute.
2) Damn she moves as if she really likes dancing spins and turns a bunch.
3) Damn, I don't know how to do that move or set of moves that make her look really hot on the dance floor. :oops:
4) Damn she's hot and cute.
5) I can't lead worth a flip and could potentially break an arm or something (hers or mine). She wouldn't dance with a sappy new leader like me. :oops:
6) Damn she's hot and cute. I said that already, didn't I? 8)

My suggestion is that you try asking, but making it clear you're a beginner willing to learn and improve. That way she doesn't think you're just asking her to be touched and groped (that is to say, a creep).

[Pacion]

2) Damn she moves as if she really likes dancing spins and turns a bunch.
3) Damn, I don't know how to do that move or set of moves that make her look really hot on the dance floor. :oops:
5) I can't lead worth a flip and could potentially break an arm or something (hers or mine). She wouldn't dance with a sappy new leader like me. :oops:

Four things to try and remember about "experienced" dancers are:
a) they were once beginners
b) females may look as if they enjoy dancing spins/turns but in fact, what you may be seeing is the joy in/of dancing <period> and not that she particularly likes all those spins or turns
c) you don't have to work hard to make her look hot, she can carry that :wink:

and last but not least
d) they have pretty much the same bodily functions/needs as you do - eat, sleep, bath, and need for oxygen/breath etc etc :wink:

[Vin]

Honestly I don't think that feeling ever goes away. The worst that can happen is not that she'll say no, there are much worse things.
1) She simply ignores you.
2) She says no and the dances immediately with someone else.
3) She says yes and looks bored throughout.
4) She says yes and then never wants to dance with you again.

I just wanted to get those out there to let others know they are not alone. In my personal opinion these are much more damaging to the ego than a simple rejection.

That said, My advice is to dance with one or two advanced salseras per night, dance one, (MAYBE two) song with her and then don't go back to her again that night. The rest of the night you should stick to dancing with those girls that feel that they are about the same level as you or less.

There are some really nice advanced salseras who are simply a blast to dance with as you get more experience you will start to know who you feel comfortable with and who feels comfortable with you.

As far as giving up control during a dance, sometimes this happens with some girls. Some dancers go off into there own little shine world when they are dancing with someone they don't really know. Just keep your lead consistent and let your personality come through in your dancing. Sometimes it really is better to be having a good time rather than doing millions of spins.
In all honesty many times the girls don't want to be spun alot especially when the floor is crowded.

[youngsta]

It's something that builds up as you get better. I know when I first started dancing I had a problem doing this too, and I'm not a shy person by any means! :lol: But these days I cherish the opportunity. I immediately search out and grab dancers better than me. I've realized when you radiate confidence you will not have a problem getting anyone to dance with you!!

[Jamie]

When I know I have asked a teacher (one of the 'world famous ones') to dance and I have never danced with him before, I sometimes say - "Please be gentle" and give them a big smile.

Hi Pacion,

Thanks for your reply!

I really liked that bit about saying 'please be gentle' ... would you think that appropriate for a lead to say too? (or maybe something to the same effect).

I shall defo bear that in mind though and have a more appreciative attitude and be open to learn from her.

Last night I did try and do the thing of asking as many girls as possible to dance in one night, and I notice I find some girls a lot easier to dance with than others and it's not always how good a dancer they are but how comfortable and at ease I feel with her. I danced with one girl about 9 times and we kept singing each others praises all night.

I am now wondering if I am something of a creep *shudders* becasue some of those salsa ladies are very hot and cute and I feel very attracted to some of them. That has to be part of what I find intimidating. If I don't fancy a girl I can dance with her just fine and enjoy it. If I am dancing with someone I like I kinda clam up / lock up and just revert to latin basics ...

No way will I give up on dancing though, it's just been too much fun when I do get it right. I do need to address this shyness and fear of asking experienced dancers to dance though.

I really like the idea of just saying I'm new to salsa / please be gentle with me. I shall give that a go and see how it works.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Jamie

:D :D :D :D :D

[huey]

... some of those salsa ladies are very hot and cute and I feel very attracted to some of them. That has to be part of what I find intimidating. If I don't fancy a girl I can dance with her just fine and enjoy it. If I am dancing with someone I like I kinda clam up / lock up and just revert to latin basics ...

Hi Jamie,

Just to say I feel very similar dancing Lindy Hop. Although dancing with a highly attractive beginner follower is great, dancing with a highly attractive experienced follower is pretty terrifying. I think it's because the part of me that fancies the girl is saying I HAVE to make a good impression and give her one of the best dances she has had. I put myself under pressure. It's very different if it's an attractive beginner. It's sometimes OK with an unattractive experienced follower (although these can be intimidating as well).

I've been to a few Salsa dances and noticed the Salsa scene seems more sexually-charged than the Lindy Hop one. In other words, people pay more attention to dressing up, looking sexy and dancing sexily, especially the ladies. It seems that the accent more on showing off your sex appeal, and the Salsa dancing is more obviously sexy than Lindy Hop.

What about talking to people and developing a social network of people you go to dances with? Men and women whose company you enjoy and who you feel comfortable dancing with.

[Sagitta]

I am now wondering if I am something of a creep *shudders* becasue some of those salsa ladies are very hot and cute and I feel very attracted to some of them. That has to be part of what I find intimidating. If I don't fancy a girl I can dance with her just fine and enjoy it. If I am dancing with someone I like I kinda clam up / lock up and just revert to latin basics ...

No way will I give up on dancing though, it's just been too much fun when I do get it right. I do need to address this shyness and fear of asking experienced dancers to dance though.
Jamie

:D :D :D :D :D

Nope. Creeps are people who make the ones they dance with feel uncomfortable. It is perfectly natural for people to be attracted to each other, but it is inappropriate to use your dance with such people to feel them up etc.

[Danoo]

I am now wondering if I am something of a creep *shudders* becasue some of those salsa ladies are very hot and cute and I feel very attracted to some of them. That has to be part of what I find intimidating. If I don't fancy a girl I can dance with her just fine and enjoy it. If I am dancing with someone I like I kinda clam up / lock up and just revert to latin basics ...

No way will I give up on dancing though, it's just been too much fun when I do get it right. I do need to address this shyness and fear of asking experienced dancers to dance though.
Jamie

:D :D :D :D :D

Nope. Creeps are people who make the ones they dance with feel uncomfortable. It is perfectly natural for people to be attracted to each other, but it is inappropriate to use your dance with such people to feel them up etc.

jamie
that sounds like girl problems :p

[Jamie]

... some of those salsa ladies are very hot and cute and I feel very attracted to some of them. That has to be part of what I find intimidating. If I don't fancy a girl I can dance with her just fine and enjoy it. If I am dancing with someone I like I kinda clam up / lock up and just revert to latin basics ...

Hi Jamie,

Just to say I feel very similar dancing Lindy Hop. Although dancing with a highly attractive beginner follower is great, dancing with a highly attractive experienced follower is pretty terrifying. I think it's because the part of me that fancies the girl is saying I HAVE to make a good impression and give her one of the best dances she has had. I put myself under pressure. It's very different if it's an attractive beginner. It's sometimes OK with an unattractive experienced follower (although these can be intimidating as well).

I've been to a few Salsa dances and noticed the Salsa scene seems more sexually-charged than the Lindy Hop one. In other words, people pay more attention to dressing up, looking sexy and dancing sexily, especially the ladies. It seems that the accent more on showing off your sex appeal, and the Salsa dancing is more obviously sexy than Lindy Hop.

What about talking to people and developing a social network of people you go to dances with? Men and women whose company you enjoy and who you feel comfortable dancing with.

I know exactly what you mean by 'putting yourself under pressure', I think you're 100% right there. I do just the same, and it's no good!.

Anyway, I tried some of the things that were mentioned before on this thread (explaining I was a relative beginner etc) and it worked wonders!!

Every girl I danced with tonight was great, and kind to me, and we had a good connection. Some of them were defo hotties too, but I was just seeing them as people and that made all the different. Maybe it was that I was dancing on home ground (my home city) and I know most people on the salsa circuit here.

It just felt soooo right. I was being really playful too, not at all serious, and that seemed to make a big difference both to my dancing and how well I got on with the followers. Really hard to explain, I just felt different, good, and had some kinda breakthrough that was brill.

I recon that for me, it's just a case of cutting out the sexual attraction element, and just flow and have fun. I felt like a little child tonight, and it was really ace !!!

I think everything comes down to how you feel, inside, something that I'm totally at a loss to find the words for. Anyway, that's everyone here for your encouragement and suggestions.

luv,
Jamie.

[brujo]

The best advice I was given on this subject was:

1.) Do not say 'Want to dance?'. Rather, say 'Can I have one dance with you?'. This makes it more comfortable for her because she knows that if you suck big time and just end up doing basics, it will be for only one song. And she is more likely to say yes.

2.) Ask for her feedback afterwards. This will show you the areas you can improve on, and really puts a human face to the really intimidating dancer out there. A lot of the intimidation comes from the unknown, and once you become a 'face' in her mind, the next time ( even if it is 6 months later ) will be less intimidating.

3.) Do NOT try to impress her. Chances are, she has seen all the fancy moves that are humanly possible. There is really no move you can do that will make her go 'WOW'. So just relax, stay with the music and have fun. Lead the moves that you know smoothly and comfortably. I am sure she rather you do six basic steps well rather than try dangerous advance moves that you do not have practice with.

[tacad]

One cool thing is that as you improve the follows will start complimenting your progress which is very encouraging! :banana:

You can actually see them enjoying a new move you have learned or your improved technique.

[Jamie]

The best advice I was given on this subject was:

1.) Do not say 'Want to dance?'. Rather, say 'Can I have one dance with you?'. This makes it more comfortable for her because she knows that if you suck big time and just end up doing basics, it will be for only one song. And she is more likely to say yes.

2.) Ask for her feedback afterwards. This will show you the areas you can improve on, and really puts a human face to the really intimidating dancer out there. A lot of the intimidation comes from the unknown, and once you become a 'face' in her mind, the next time ( even if it is 6 months later ) will be less intimidating.

3.) Do NOT try to impress her. Chances are, she has seen all the fancy moves that are humanly possible. There is really no move you can do that will make her go 'WOW'. So just relax, stay with the music and have fun. Lead the moves that you know smoothly and comfortably. I am sure she rather you do six basic steps well rather than try dangerous advance moves that you do not have practice with.

Thanks Brujo.

I've seen the 'can I have one dance?' thing before on here and I thought that it may sound 'forced' / slightly unnatural ... but I shall certainly give it a go ... probably a good one to use when I am dancing away from home (in another city).

Asking for feedback too, YES!, fantastic idea, thank you. I will defo do this one. Apart from all the other reasons to do this, it will help me identify areas for improvement.

Completely agree with your 3rd point too, don't try and impress her. I've felt myself trying to do this in the past and it feels awful, plus, makes me dance a lot worse than I do when I'm feeling relaxed.

I was thinking about breaking things down in to like a process with stages (but not being too rigid at all with anything). Something like:

Start of slow.
Relax and get a good 'connection' with partner.
Slowly add moves in to the mix.

- Jamie

[MacMoto]

b) females may look as if they enjoy dancing spins/turns but in fact, what you may be seeing is the joy in/of dancing <period> and not that she particularly likes all those spins or turns
After a particularly energetic dance, I often go straight to a less experienced leader and ask for a dance so I can have a dance at a more relaxed pace. It's a delight when the leader doesn't make me work too hard and just enjoy the dance with me.

I was thinking about breaking things down in to like a process with stages (but not being too rigid at all with anything). Something like:

Start of slow.
Relax and get a good 'connection' with partner.
Slowly add moves in to the mix.
Sounds good Jamie. Good luck.

[Vin]

Often times I have found that advanced follows are more impressed with a few moves done well and an overall fun dance rather than a whole lot of difficult to execute patterns and moves where you have to concentrate to follow everything.

[Cist]

As posted the main point is self confidence. The second thing is impressing your partner. if you can manage both there wouldn't be any problems. In my first year of dancing I never asked sbdy to dance except for my training partner. I am a much to shy person. but as my experience and hand in hand my selfconfidence grew, I tried to ask some of the beginners. .... it was still a hard task ....every new evening it was like inventing the same task new.

but after another 6 month i got used to ask followers, also very attractive followers. now after dancing almost for 3 years it is still a challenge to ask the best of the best for a dance. this summer e.g. when edie the salsafreak held a workshop in vienna she asked me the following evening if i wanted to dance with her.....and guess what...i told her i acutally couldn't because i was too tired. well, it wasn't a lie but of course this feeling was welcome, because I WAS afraid of dancing with her. :shock: Really stupid but that's the way it still is for me...this experience shouldn't demotivate anybody, however, just shows how I still feel when asking real good followers for a dance.

maybe a positive statement. when i went to belrin for educational purposes just a few month ago, i didn't know any dancers or clubs. guess what. i went three times to three different salsa clubs and every night was a blast. although i am a rather shy person, i hadn't any problem to dance all night with lots of different people. i have never had so much fun going out in foreign countries before i startet with salsa! :D'

[Sagitta]

but after another 6 month i got used to ask followers, also very attractive followers. now after dancing almost for 3 years it is still a challenge to ask the best of the best for a dance. this summer e.g. when edie the salsafreak held a workshop in vienna she asked me the following evening if i wanted to dance with her.....and guess what...i told her i acutally couldn't because i was too tired. well, it wasn't a lie but of course this feeling was welcome, because I WAS afraid of dancing with her. :shock: Really stupid but that's the way it still is for me...this experience shouldn't demotivate anybody, however, just shows how I still feel when asking real good followers for a dance.


I wish really good dancers like her asked me to dance. :( I would jump at that chance!

[Larinda McRaven]

Dance with me...Dance with ME! Not to impress your friends, not to impress yourself, certainly not to impress me, not to look for a free tip or lesson. Just dance with me. Obviously we are both at the dance because we love to dance. Isn't that enough...regardless of skill level? Just relax and dance.

[danceguy]

I'd dance with you Larinda! Do you Salsa? I can do some Ballroom (WAY rusty though). :P :raisebro:

I made another post once about how sometimes a very attractive and advanced Salsera would show up at a local club, and everyone would avoid her like the plague. I remember once such lady and I said to myself "I'm just going to be a man, and ask her to dance!"...being the first guy to do so.

The dance didn't go all that well, but she danced with me for two songs and she looked happy just to get on the dance floor...and after that more people started asking her.

I say just ask them one and ask them all, if someone is really upleasant to you...then you'll know not to ask them next time. :wink: :D

SG

[Sagitta]

I remember quite a few dancers where I am. They show up new and no-one asks them to dance and they are really good. Not sure what it is about people not asking strangers to dance. Then people find out they are really good and when advanced dancers start dancing with them the others stop doing so!! :? People are so weird sometimes.

[Larinda McRaven]

yes I can salsa, although it may be a geeky ballroom version compared to the rest of you... :wink:

[danceguy]

No worries Larinda! Just wear one of those beautiful dresses that I saw in your performance pics. :D

Come to think of it, my Salsa is pretty geeky too. :lol: ;)

SG

[etchuck]

I got a small button from my contra dance weekend, which I put my name on it. Underneath my name, I put "Ask me!" in red text. Not sure if that would work (it only resulted in people asking me random questions actually... thank goodness I have a Ph.D. ;) ), but I do my best to "get over" asking good follows to dance.

The one thing that I will note though: usually I find myself more likely to ask experienced follows to dance if the experienced leads are sociable and ask people outside the "experienced only" circle to dance. Just a thought/observation.

[MacMoto]

when edie the salsafreak held a workshop in vienna she asked me the following evening if i wanted to dance with her.....and guess what...i told her i acutally couldn't because i was too tired. well, it wasn't a lie but of course this feeling was welcome, because I WAS afraid of dancing with her. :shock:
I read an article Edie wrote about a congress in Europe. At the party, she asked lots of local dancers to dance, and they kept knocking her back because they were intimidated. She describes in the article how miserable she was that night... there she was, excited at the prospect of dancing the night away in a foreign country, and nobody would dance with her!
Nothing is worse than going to a dance and not getting any dance, even for the best of the best dancers.

[Cist]

when edie the salsafreak held a workshop in vienna she asked me the following evening if i wanted to dance with her.....and guess what...i told her i acutally couldn't because i was too tired. well, it wasn't a lie but of course this feeling was welcome, because I WAS afraid of dancing with her. :shock:
I read an article Edie wrote about a congress in Europe. At the party, she asked lots of local dancers to dance, and they kept knocking her back because they were intimidated. She describes in the article how miserable she was that night... there she was, excited at the prospect of dancing the night away in a foreign country, and nobody would dance with her!
Nothing is worse than going to a dance and not getting any dance, even for the best of the best dancers.

well, I don't think it was the workshop in Vienna, because actually she WAS dancing until she left home. She even danced, and that was a real cool thing, with an older man (maybe he was 60??) who couldn't dance salsa at all.

acutally there is also another thing for me when dancing: I wouldn't dance with somebody if I don't feel like I really want to do it, for what reason ever. When I don't feel comfortable dancing I'd rather stand and watch other people and enjoy the music. Nothing is worse than a "must dance". It's another thing, when sbdy asks you for a dance. I would never (except for extreme reasons) reject anybody. Anybody (well it should obviously be a she, although dancing with a male as a follower can be fun too :-) who asks me deserves at least one dance, no matter what age, attractiveness, etc.

[MacMoto]

well, I don't think it was the workshop in Vienna
I think it was the first Zurich congress.

[Vin]

I tried a variation of Brujo's approach last night with a couple of dancers.
I asked "may I have a dance?" as with anything it worked with some and had no affect with others. Overall though I felt like it was better recieved than my standard "would you like to dance?". Thanks Brujo
One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.

[borikensalsero]

I've found out with the advanced dancers around here that approach has a lot more to do than what it is said...

I know that it is rather difficult for a "newbie/intermidate" to ask someone of "great" salsa stature to dance, but if we come forward with "confidence" we are likely to have our offer accepted...

I actually play the I don't know trick but I'm rather convicing with it that they laugh their way into a yes. I tell them that I can't dance to save my life, but that I've been watching them dancing all night, and I've finally muster enough courage, after a couple of beers and some shots to come over and ask for a dance, that I haven't been this afraid in years, and that I would rather have the chinese tourtored upon me than go through this agonizing pain to ask them to dance... (I don't think anyone knows what the chinese turture is, but it was a very big phrase in salsa songs in the 70s, salseros that speak spanish might very well know it)

on the way to the dance floor, I get them really afraid, I tell them Imma choose a corner where no one can see me kicking and stepping her, by that time their eyes are wide open double guessing their acceptance to this dance. The music goes, I stop, look afraid, tell them that I'm double guessing myself about the offer, then two cross body leads at which time they tend to smack me around for putting them through all of that for nothing! LMAO!!!

The best reaction I got, was this one unmentioned girl, who dragged her feet all the way to the coner looking back at her friends and asking me what the heck she was thinking... lol

Point, there is no guessing who will accept what, but confidence in what you do, whether the approach is one of shyness or not, still bring confidence upon your approach, for it will exude out of you and will likely result in a yes....

All it takes is trust in yourself... trust what you know, don't even think about what you don't know, the only real problem with asking is in the mind...

[etchuck]

... that I would rather have the chinese tourtored upon me than go through this agonizing pain to ask them to dance... (I don't think anyone knows what the chinese torture is, but it was a very big phrase in salsa songs in the 70s, salseros that speak spanish might very well know it)

Ok, I'm officially curious: Why would "Chinese [water] torture" be such a popular phrase in 1970's salsa songs? And how do you say that in Spanish so I can recognize it in case there is a ... "revival"? :)

[RugKutta]

Jamie,

Dude, I can definately relate to you on this. Though I am getting over it, I'm often intimidated by ladies who seem to be "experts." If I've seen someone perform before, or if I see her dancing really well w/ someone who also seems to be an expert, It's hard for me not to put her on a pedastal, as if she were on a much higher level than me. Whenever I dance with someone like this, it's had for me to be myself and just enjoy the dance; I forget alot of my moves and end up worrying too much about what I'm doing right or what I'm doing wrong, as if she were analyzing my every move. One thing that I had to realize is that most salseras (key word: MOST....I'm sure there are some nasty, uppity, arrogant ones out there.... fortunately I just haven't met any yet) will still smile and thank you for the dance afterwards, even if they are on a whole 'nother level than you are. One of my favorite salseras, who I was once intimidated by, always encourages me when we see each other, so that helped my confidence alot, having someone who I see as a "professional" tell me things like "you've gotten better since the last time we danced" or "you guys did great!" (the latter comment was made after my partner and I didn't even make the top 3 out of 6 in an ameteur salsa contest). The last time we danced together, I was able to just be myself and have fun w/ her, and it was one of my best dances ever. In short, if you're anything like me, it's probably all in your head. Don't try to judge too much what she MIGHT be thinking about you; if you do that you'll always be self-concious and uptight when dancing w/ a "professional." Just be yourself and have fun!

Luv, Peace, and SALSA

Myron

Kuttin' up the rug (or whatever surface it is) every weekend

[Patapouf]

So exactly what is a "chinese torture"? :roll:

[borikensalsero]

... that I would rather have the chinese tourtored upon me than go through this agonizing pain to ask them to dance... (I don't think anyone knows what the chinese torture is, but it was a very big phrase in salsa songs in the 70s, salseros that speak spanish might very well know it)

Ok, I'm officially curious: Why would "Chinese [water] torture" be such a popular phrase in 1970's salsa songs? And how do you say that in Spanish so I can recognize it in case there is a ... "revival"? :)


Tortura China... :D

[Vin]

Being a semi-new face in the scene I have gone unnoticed to some of the salseras. As such the expectations are low. I may try your technique Boriken because it sounds hilarious. Although I am not quite at the level where I would feel comfortable pulling it off as well as you seem to.
I agree, I prefer to set low expectations for myself.
The big issue I have is that some will simply not dance with you if they have not NOTICED you dancing before.
Speaking for myself, some nights I just don't notice anyone that I don't dance with, other nights I watch the same people I always watch and don't look for potential new people that can really dance. Luckily for me I dance with anyone that asks.

If I am someone that will only dance with people I notice yet I don't look for new people to dance with I will never expand my potential partner list.

[etchuck]

Talking straight-up from dancing in the swing community, I know where the darn good lindyhop dancers are at some of the dances I frequent. There are times when I will intentionally dance in front of their corner with someone, and I dance like I really enjoy myself. (At the August Jill-and-Jack swing competition in which I won 3rd place as a follow, the fourth dance was a merengue, and I placed ourselves right in front of their corner of the room. The "good swingers" were probably shocked at how I was dancing merengue, so I am sure they know how good a general dancer I try to be.)

Granted, I don't think that has still rubbed off on any of the women in that group to actually ask me to dance with them, but then again, maybe they're all waiting for me.

So my guess is if they don't notice you, force them to notice you. (Okay, a couple of years of ballroom competing will do that.)

[borikensalsero]

Being a semi-new face in the scene I have gone unnoticed to some of the salseras. As such the expectations are low. I may try your technique Boriken because it sounds hilarious. Although I am not quite at the level where I would feel comfortable pulling it off as well as you seem to.
I agree, I prefer to set low expectations for myself.
The big issue I have is that some will simply not dance with you if they have not NOTICED you dancing before.
Speaking for myself, some nights I just don't notice anyone that I don't dance with, other nights I watch the same people I always watch and don't look for potential new people that can really dance. Luckily for me I dance with anyone that asks.

If I am someone that will only dance with people I notice yet I don't look for new people to dance with I will never expand my potential partner list.

I actually got that line from on of the top salseras one time, "But I've never seen you dance", to which I said well, there is nothing to see, but if you wanna be stepped on, bang knees, come my way!... lol... I'm such a fool when it comes to this things, I think is because I don't actually care if they dance with me or not, so I go ahead a goof off as much as I can... I'll joke around to which they have 'till today reacted quite nicely. I'm still waiting for the one that'll tell me to go fetch a bone.... hehe

[borikensalsero]

Granted, I don't think that has still rubbed off on any of the women in that group to actually ask me to dance with them, but then again, maybe they're all waiting for me.

So my guess is if they don't notice you, force them to notice you. (Okay, a couple of years of ballroom competing will do that.)

lol... man, I guess we all have our little ways to hope to get noticed.

[etchuck]

lol... man, I guess we all have our little ways to hope to get noticed.

Yeah, and you haven't seen me lead my friend Jam (male) in west-coast swing. We did that in lieu of a cha-cha at a salsa dance earlier in the year. I don't think I'll ever wind up dancing with an experienced salsera in this area for maybe another two years! ;) I think I once described it here as so shocking one would go blind watching it. :shock: 8)

[tj]

I tried a variation of Brujo's approach last night with a couple of dancers.
I asked "may I have a dance?" as with anything it worked with some and had no affect with others. Overall though I felt like it was better recieved than my standard "would you like to dance?". Thanks Brujo
One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.

Hey Vin,

Gotta admit, I admire how fearless you are when asking any of them!

[Sagitta]

I tried a variation of Brujo's approach last night with a couple of dancers.
I asked "may I have a dance?" as with anything it worked with some and had no affect with others. Overall though I felt like it was better recieved than my standard "would you like to dance?". Thanks Brujo
One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.

Hey Vin,

Gotta admit, I admire how fearless you are when asking any of them!

Oh, fearless ones!! :notworth: :lol:

[TheLetterJ]

This topic is probably one of the core issues facing new salseros. I've been there, and am still there sometimes when it comes to asking a good dancer to dance if we've never danced before.

Some things I do to help me overcome things are:

1) Practice, practice practice, in front of the mirror by yourself is surprisingly helpful.

2) Advanced salseras sometimes get excluded because too many salseros think they're not good enough to ask them to dance, so they end up sitting out more often than they like.

3) Sometimes advanced salseras like simpler moves (as long as they are done correctly to the music), because it allows them to play with the music and express themselves (an extra hip twist here, or an extra flick of the foot there), rather than having to concentrate on complicated moves more advanced leads like to do.

And one final note. There's one local salsera who is just absolutely amazing. A lot of people don't dance with her because they think she's way too good. Amazingly, after every time we dance, she would apologize for not able to follow some stuff. The point is, everyone is their own worst critic. Enjoy yourself and look like you're having fun!

[Pacion]

3) Sometimes advanced salseras like simpler moves (as long as they are done correctly to the music), because it allows them to play with the music and express themselves (an extra hip twist here, or an extra flick of the foot there), rather than having to concentrate on complicated moves more advanced leads like to do.

:notworth:

Oh and guys, if you are asking a more advanced salsera to dance, really try and dance with her, rather than giving her the impression that you are just using her as practice so that you can then go and impress some other girl :?

[Vin]

I tried a variation of Brujo's approach last night with a couple of dancers.
I asked "may I have a dance?" as with anything it worked with some and had no affect with others. Overall though I felt like it was better recieved than my standard "would you like to dance?". Thanks Brujo
One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.

Hey Vin,

Gotta admit, I admire how fearless you are when asking any of them!

Thanks TJ, but half the time you are telling me who is open to dancing with someone they don't know, I just follow your lead.

[Pacion]

Hey Vin,

Gotta admit, I admire how fearless you are when asking any of them!

Thanks TJ, but half the time you are telling me who is open to dancing with someone they don't know, I just follow your lead.

:shock: Unfair advantage! Insider trading! :shock: :lol:

[Cist]

maybe another suggestion to make it easier to ask foreign people:

sometimes when I go out to a salsa venue, i am in a really bad mood. these times are the hardest to ask somebody for a dance. also if you fake your smile at your best and try to be as nice as possible. it does not only happen when i am in a bad mood but could also be when i am really tired. after one or two dances the bad mood has gone but this doesn't help you.

the point is, it doesn't matter how good or how bad you dance (well at a certain point it matters but not in general), if you do pass on your motivation, mood, enthusiasm or just some positive energy the opponent knows somehow (don't ask me why, because usually i am also really good in acting) if the next few minutes are going to be fun or bad ones. And almost always this impression of you decides wether the other persons says yes or no.

another thing is, since there is much noise in a club, the asked person may not understand your intonation very well. therefore i always compensate this with many smiles and laughing while talking. i mean you have to control that, else the other may think you are drunk or whatever :lol: . this really helps me, and the 2 persons out of maybe 10 or 15 an evening who won't dance with me are usually non dancers who are afraid of blaming them, but to convince them isn't the actual topic.

hope this helps you a little bit

[MacMoto]

One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.
I'm so hopelessly addicted to the thrill of finding gems among strangers (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5219) I'm willing to take a chance on anyone who asks me (or even those who don't ask me :lol:)...

[Vin]

One thing that will help you get past the rejections are that many dancers, and this may be more common for follows, have a comfort zone that can be difficult to break past.
I'm so hopelessly addicted to the thrill of finding gems among strangers (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5219) I'm willing to take a chance on anyone who asks me (or even those who don't ask me :lol:)...

You are a rare breed in some parts of the world.
I agree there is nothing quite like having a great connection with a stranger.
Ooh that didn't come out right, oh well.

[Jamie]

Well ... I did it !!!!

I asked the most amazing follower to dance last night ... and she said YES (wooo hooo).

She looked v amazing too so it was like double the intimidation ... but the moment felt right (gut feeling kinda thing) so I just did it ...

She moved like an angel ... and even though I felt a bit intimidated ... I really enjoyed dancing with her ... although not totally at ease ... not totally fluid ... felt kinda like 'gripped' inside as if i was constricting the flow of energy and movement ... WHY IS THAT AND HOW DO I LOSE IT !!! ... I wanna be fluid.

Anyway ... it was a very positive experience for me ... I think she could tell I was slightly intimidated by her ... and she was still very supportive and encouraging and friendly with me.

I'm trying to see this as a progression thing. Being relaxed and confident and happy asking followers to dance and also fluid during the dance. The more I do it the better I will get (he hopes). Like learning to swim ... you gotta jump in the water ... tis the only way ... likewise you have to expose yourself to what you fear.

Funny how it's only the better followers or the attractive ones I get intimidated by though ... and I wonder why that is ? ......

[azzey]

She describes in the article how miserable she was that night... there she was, excited at the prospect of dancing the night away in a foreign country, and nobody would dance with her!
Nothing is worse than going to a dance and not getting any dance, even for the best of the best dancers.

It's always funny when I go to different venues/clubs or salsa weekends. Although I am an experienced dancer and aware of the social/psychological aspects of the salsa scene in relation to asking/being asked and what goes through follows minds when being asked. e.g. will he try to pull my wings off as if playing with an insect, drive me like a sports car, has he got rhythm? It still comes as a surprise and disappointment when some nights I can get knocked back again and again and again.

Often it has nothing to do with your ability, as sometimes the venue is so large that the ladies are guaranteed to have never seen you dance. I am a good lead and dance many styles well enough (LA, Cuban and New York). I'm not yet an advanced dancer but am working hard on it.

So I am at the recent UK congress and have been dancing on the carpet area with the performers from Tropical Gem, Latin Motion DA, Imperio Azteca (Johnny Vasquez's girl) etc for most of the evening and decide to take a break and give the main floor another spin. I ask a girl, no, another, no, another, excuse, another, excuse, another, excuse, again again again. So eventually I get tired of this and go back and dance with the performers the rest of the night!

Moral of the story? A lot of times it has nothing to do with your ability or personality, since they haven't got to know you yet.

Perhaps in the future I can get a salsa transplant of the pefect latin dancer body and face? :lol: :lol:

[MacMoto]

Well ... I did it !!!!

I asked the most amazing follower to dance last night ... and she said YES (wooo hooo).
Well done! :D It's great to hear it was a positive experience for you.

[MacMoto]

So I am at the recent UK congress and have been dancing on the carpet area with the performers from Tropical Gem, Latin Motion DA, Imperio Azteca (Johnny Vasquez's girl) etc for most of the evening and decide to take a break and give the main floor another spin. I ask a girl, no, another, no, another, excuse, another, excuse, another, excuse, again again again. So eventually I get tired of this and go back and dance with the performers the rest of the night!
You should've asked me :twisted:
(Okay I didn't ask you either -- I was too busy hunting for strangers :lol:)

[tj]

Hey Vin,

Gotta admit, I admire how fearless you are when asking any of them!

Thanks TJ, but half the time you are telling me who is open to dancing with someone they don't know, I just follow your lead.

:shock: Unfair advantage! Insider trading! :shock: :lol:

Busted again!
:roll:

[borikensalsero]

... although not totally at ease ... not totally fluid ... felt kinda like 'gripped' inside as if i was constricting the flow of energy and movement ... WHY IS THAT AND HOW DO I LOSE IT !!! ... I wanna be fluid.


Funny how it's only the better followers or the attractive ones I get intimidated by though ... and I wonder why that is ? ......

First and foremost, Congratulations Jamie!!!!!

Jamie, it is natural to feel this way, there are many things you can do to stop it from happening, you’ll eventually find your own way to deal with it…

The energy blockage is coming from your mind, your mind isn’t at ease, hence causes blockage of your emotions, usually resulting in a knotted stomach, a blockage of your throat, almost feeling like you can’t swallow, and fear of creating motion as you are afraid (Ego) of displaying itself when it doesn’t feel fully equipped to handle the task. You have prevented energy from freely flowing through the body, the final result is all that you felt the other night....

Your are afraid, but your minds instinctively knows it isn’t the kind of danger to run from, so it still tries to sooth itself as much as possible resulting in “not a very fluid motion” as it is still double guessing itself, hence, the reason it doesn’t happen with a girl you aren’t attracted to, nor one that is less in, or equal to you in skill. Your ego has nothing to fear, hence, it majestically displays itself…

Note: the fear of the ego is really to be "judged", the presence of the other person (Skilled/Beautiful) salsera is the trigger that causes it to get all bent out of shape, she isn't the source... your mind is...

How do you get rid of it? The easiest way is time, well not really time, but the experience acquired during that elapsed time… Perhaps you can take a couple of deep breaths to relax you before you head over to her, or simply try to do away with the ego as much as possible, it is a very hard thing to do but not impossible, try think not of what I will do, what will happen to me, or anything related to the I/ME/physical self… How you do it Jaime... is up to you…

With me, I simply think of connecting to her in an emotional journey, I think of the energy within my stomach coming out and joining hers. I try to imagine a connecting blue line (blue usually means peace/togetherness) coming from my stomach to her stomach, when you get good at this you can actually feel your stomach connecting to her, eventually pulling her towards the direction you want her to go to, she needs not know about this kind of connection, she simply reacts, I’m not all that good at it, but for glimpses of songs, I’ve been able to feel that connection and feel my stomach joining her, and leading her in the direction I want her to go to. It feels as if you were in water and tried to move, the feeling that something is “almost preventing” your movement, is the same feeling I get when doing this. I also feel when I lose it, feels like a snapping rubber.

By thinking of this, it leaves little time for me to worry about what she is going to think of my lack luster skills… I will have tried to create a connection that will hopefully pull her from the thoughts of skill and into sharing a dance with me… Again, this is simply what I concentrate on when I feel “fear”, however, automatically happens when I dance, for I’ve been practicing it for a while. Fear makes all of it break, hence why I must think of it to make it happen… I top all of this by looking deeply into her eyes, when accomplished there is a sense of connection unparalleled by a mere box/frame connection. Once you feel this connection you’ll never see salsa the same…

Again, this is just what I like to do to combat feelings of inadequacy where there shouldn’t be…

[TheLetterJ]

So I am at the recent UK congress and have been dancing on the carpet area with the performers from Tropical Gem, Latin Motion DA, Imperio Azteca (Johnny Vasquez's girl) etc for most of the evening and decide to take a break and give the main floor another spin. I ask a girl, no, another, no, another, excuse, another, excuse, another, excuse, again again again. So eventually I get tired of this and go back and dance with the performers the rest of the night!


Wow, I can't believe this happened. I'm curious as to what makes these people on the main floor think they can be so snobbish. Especially at a venue where everyone came to dance and have a good time.

[azzey]

Wow, I can't believe this happened. I'm curious as to what makes these people on the main floor think they can be so snobbish. Especially at a venue where everyone came to dance and have a good time.

It was an extreme example. Not the norm as usually it's yes, yes, yes. Also, I would normally pick girls who are just coming off the dance floor as you have a higher chance of them wanting to dance again rather than girls standing on the side lines watching. Some of them are on the side lines because they're waiting for the perfect guy to ask them. I think it was when the band was playing a particularly long set and I couldn't be bothered to wait.

My point though is that it can happen to any of us, not just the inexperienced. You just keep trying and not dig too much into why someone said no. Find people who want to dance with you and enjoy their company. Oh and when the ones who said no later come up to you and ask you to dance you conveniently have to rest.
;) :) joking.

[Vin]

I would say the norm for me is yes, yes, yes, I'm tired, yes, yes, yes, maybe later, yes, yes, yes, are you any good, yes, yes . . .

Occasionally you get those no, no, no, no, yes, no , no ..
nights

[etchuck]

Yeah... i usually stop after the third "no". After two dances in which I get three "no's" I usually leave. And normally I won't go back for a month.

[azzey]

Yeah... i usually stop after the third "no". After two dances in which I get three "no's" I usually leave. And normally I won't go back for a month.

You must not get much value out of a congress ;)

[tj]

Yeah... i usually stop after the third "no". After two dances in which I get three "no's" I usually leave. And normally I won't go back for a month.

You must not get much value out of a congress ;)

Well, this isn't particularly helpful, but it will "enlighten" you as to how some of the more snobbish salseras think... knew a salsera who declared that she goes to the Congresses to only "dance with the best", meaning that if you're not a "name/performer", she doesn't want anything to do with you.

Luckily, I'd say she's the exception rather than the rule. But she was an example of some of the poor attitudes that one can come across.

Hey, anything to let me hurry up and get past her so I can dance with like minded individuals instead!

[Lucretia]

Jamie,

Now I found a text I wrote a few days ago, before this post was so long and had so many good advices. But I forgot to post it. So here it is…perhaps a bit late...but this how I worked on the confidence part. Confidence to my own resources and confidence in the leader. Mutual trust.


Why don’t you go to a Salsa Congress ow some looong workshop?

Last weekend I was at a small kind of Congress. We had classes all day building up a great atmosphere of joy, trust and confidence. Everyone made mistakes – all the time. Giggling with all kinds of dancer helps to breaking the walls – the walls that surround a person who lacks confidence.

The meals I took together with completely strangers - just to get to know more people. To build up a "community" of leaders and salserafriends. It was never hard to ask for a free chair when I knew that everyone in the restaurant was there for one thing. Feeding to be able to take next class. Feeding to have a good time.

The rueda class in late afternoon was a great appetizer before the BIG party. A Swedish smorgasbord or perhaps Spanish tapas. I had a chance to dance with every guy and decide if they tasted like have more or not.

More giggling – the teacher only spoke Spanish and only one student understood what he said. Very often there where one, two or more girls left alone in one part of the room. And one, two or three guys left alone in the opposite direction. LOL! Rueda classes are very joyful and relaxing.

The first day built up my confidence a lot. I had several dances with guys having a style perfect for my level. (i.e a bit better than me but not too complicated)

Then late in the evening I saw one of the greatest dancers I've ever seen sitting alone. I decided to make a move for a dance and started to discuss something trivial. He was a very nice and humble guy and when there was a batchata I asked for a dance. He told me he wasn’t so good at this dance. I said “GOOD, we can warm up so I dare to take a salsa with you later on!”

We laughed a lot on our way to the dance floor. He had told me he was no good at Batchata. I had told him I wasn’t as good at salsa as he was. We had lowered the weapons for protection – or the shelters were torn. We exposed ourselves a bit. A good start!

In my case I wasn’t interested in this guy in any other aspect than dancing. But this was a big big challenge anyhow. I had seen him for the whole summer and admired him and his dancepartners(s). And dance we did. But it was hard work for both of us. I hope no one really saw us.

Next day I had the fortune to take a class together with this guy and the teacher forgot to rotate the partners. I had him for 30 minutes! We really learnt how to connect and cooperate. Later we had lunch and discussed some of my special problems. He had brand new theories about them and gave me a lot of good advices.

WHAT A WEEKEND! It really built up my confidence.

Jamie,
Have you ever tried to break the wall by a chat or laughter or anything else that lowers the guards? You will se the girls will not bite you. If you don’t know what to talk about - just pick one of the subjects you see in the DF index. I had many chats about these subjects with completely stranger during my salsa weekend. These subjects seem to be universal.

Build up your own "community" of followers. The one you miss dancing with - tell them you like their style. The one you dance with - speak to them as well. Build a network of salsa relations. Some day you can bring home the harvest of the seeds you spread. I'm sure.

And then...go for a Salsa Congress. Or at least - take classes at different salsa schools. It will widen your network and give you more skills.

Keep on dancing!

/Lucretia

[Lucretia]

With me, I simply think of connecting to her in an emotional journey, I think of the energy within my stomach coming out and joining hers. I try to imagine a connecting blue line (blue usually means peace/togetherness) coming from my stomach to her stomach, when you get good at this you can actually feel your stomach connecting to her, eventually pulling her towards the direction you want her to go to, she needs not know about this kind of connection, she simply reacts, I’m not all that good at it, but for glimpses of songs, I’ve been able to feel that connection and feel my stomach joining her, and leading her in the direction I want her to go to. It feels as if you were in water and tried to move, the feeling that something is “almost preventing” your movement, is the same feeling I get when doing this. I also feel when I lose it, feels like a snapping rubber.


Borikensalsero,
I believe I know what you are talking about although I never have practiced it on a salsaclub. This is how you best cope with animals. Make them do what you want them to do and sometimes get a message from them. It is really strange, but I do believe in a common subconscious stream that everyone is connected to. You just have to open up your sences.

(Sometimes I believe this is how I know a lot of people I'm not supposed to know anything about. For examle pregnanzies before the mother herself know anything about it. A bit scary isn't it.)

More thoughts off topic...
I guess this effect is close to whats happening when meditating. I know reasearch has been done on munks doing their daily mediatation. The part of the brain that controlls the "ego" seems to take a snap. This decrease of activity is happening at the same time as the monks have a strong feeling of harmony, love and all together living in perfect harmony.

/Lucretia

[borikensalsero]

With me, I simply think of connecting to her in an emotional journey, I think of the energy within my stomach coming out and joining hers. I try to imagine a connecting blue line (blue usually means peace/togetherness) coming from my stomach to her stomach, when you get good at this you can actually feel your stomach connecting to her, eventually pulling her towards the direction you want her to go to, she needs not know about this kind of connection, she simply reacts, I’m not all that good at it, but for glimpses of songs, I’ve been able to feel that connection and feel my stomach joining her, and leading her in the direction I want her to go to. It feels as if you were in water and tried to move, the feeling that something is “almost preventing” your movement, is the same feeling I get when doing this. I also feel when I lose it, feels like a snapping rubber.


Borikensalsero,
I believe I know what you are talking about although I never have practiced it on a salsaclub. This is how you best cope with animals. Make them do what you want them to do and sometimes get a message from them. It is really strange, but I do believe in a common subconscious stream that everyone is connected to. You just have to open up your sences.

(Sometimes I believe this is how I know a lot of people I'm not supposed to know anything about. For examle pregnanzies before the mother herself know anything about it. A bit scary isn't it.)

More thoughts off topic...
I guess this effect is close to whats happening when meditating. I know reasearch has been done on munks doing their daily mediatation. The part of the brain that controlls the "ego" seems to take a snap. This decrease of activity is happening at the same time as the monks have a strong feeling of harmony, love and all together living in perfect harmony.

/Lucretia

wepa!!!! Yeap... along those lines Lucretia... with time we can connect through the dance with that same harmoney, love the monks do while meditating.... all it takes is a bit of practice and the open mind to think past what we see....

[Jamie]

More thoughts off topic...
I guess this effect is close to whats happening when meditating. I know reasearch has been done on munks doing their daily mediatation. The part of the brain that controlls the "ego" seems to take a snap. This decrease of activity is happening at the same time as the monks have a strong feeling of harmony, love and all together living in perfect harmony.

/Lucretia

Thank you Lucretia.

I am now thinking to treat each salsa dance as a moving meditation ... for each dance it is the peace love harmony and sense of connection / oneness of all things ... that you bring to the dance ... that is the important thing.

And if I ask a follower and she says 'no' ... then that is OK too ... I can still be polite and kind and respectful.

I have to say ... the standard and high quality of replies on this forum is amazing me !!!! ... and I would like to thank you all for your kindness and taking the time to express your views.

[Jamie]

Jamie,
Have you ever tried to break the wall by a chat or laughter or anything else that lowers the guards? You will se the girls will not bite you. If you don’t know what to talk about - just pick one of the subjects you see in the DF index. I had many chats about these subjects with completely stranger during my salsa weekend. These subjects seem to be universal.

Build up your own "community" of followers. The one you miss dancing with - tell them you like their style. The one you dance with - speak to them as well. Build a network of salsa relations. Some day you can bring home the harvest of the seeds you spread. I'm sure.

And then...go for a Salsa Congress. Or at least - take classes at different salsa schools. It will widen your network and give you more skills.

Keep on dancing!

/Lucretia

I am (or was before I started salsa) quite shy with girls ... so just talking and chatting and small talk does not come easy to me ... but the more salsa I am doing ... the more it is helping me to relate to women in general which is fantastic.

I am already building up my community of followers who I feel at peace with and love to dance with and even talk too ... and even making friends with the guys and everyone really ... I also try to be encouraging to newbies and anyone who is struggling ... I see the same problems that they have in myself ... so by helping them I am helping myself ... clever huh !?

I hate all this snobby stuff.

I would love to go to a salsa congress ... just missed the UK one though ... have thought about going on a salsa holiday ... maybe barcelona ... dance the nights away and recover on the beach ... sunbathing all day long ... ahhhh ... bliss !!!.

Love the idea od spreading it around too and having different teachers ... think that's very wise.

Thanks for all your suggestions Lucretia.

- Jamie

[Jamie]

... although not totally at ease ... not totally fluid ... felt kinda like 'gripped' inside as if i was constricting the flow of energy and movement ... WHY IS THAT AND HOW DO I LOSE IT !!! ... I wanna be fluid.


Funny how it's only the better followers or the attractive ones I get intimidated by though ... and I wonder why that is ? ......

First and foremost, Congratulations Jamie!!!!!

Jamie, it is natural to feel this way, there are many things you can do to stop it from happening, you’ll eventually find your own way to deal with it…

The energy blockage is coming from your mind, your mind isn’t at ease, hence causes blockage of your emotions, usually resulting in a knotted stomach, a blockage of your throat, almost feeling like you can’t swallow, and fear of creating motion as you are afraid (Ego) of displaying itself when it doesn’t feel fully equipped to handle the task. You have prevented energy from freely flowing through the body, the final result is all that you felt the other night....

Your are afraid, but your minds instinctively knows it isn’t the kind of danger to run from, so it still tries to sooth itself as much as possible resulting in “not a very fluid motion” as it is still double guessing itself, hence, the reason it doesn’t happen with a girl you aren’t attracted to, nor one that is less in, or equal to you in skill. Your ego has nothing to fear, hence, it majestically displays itself…

Note: the fear of the ego is really to be "judged", the presence of the other person (Skilled/Beautiful) salsera is the trigger that causes it to get all bent out of shape, she isn't the source... your mind is...

How do you get rid of it? The easiest way is time, well not really time, but the experience acquired during that elapsed time… Perhaps you can take a couple of deep breaths to relax you before you head over to her, or simply try to do away with the ego as much as possible, it is a very hard thing to do but not impossible, try think not of what I will do, what will happen to me, or anything related to the I/ME/physical self… How you do it Jaime... is up to you…

With me, I simply think of connecting to her in an emotional journey, I think of the energy within my stomach coming out and joining hers. I try to imagine a connecting blue line (blue usually means peace/togetherness) coming from my stomach to her stomach, when you get good at this you can actually feel your stomach connecting to her, eventually pulling her towards the direction you want her to go to, she needs not know about this kind of connection, she simply reacts, I’m not all that good at it, but for glimpses of songs, I’ve been able to feel that connection and feel my stomach joining her, and leading her in the direction I want her to go to. It feels as if you were in water and tried to move, the feeling that something is “almost preventing” your movement, is the same feeling I get when doing this. I also feel when I lose it, feels like a snapping rubber.

By thinking of this, it leaves little time for me to worry about what she is going to think of my lack luster skills… I will have tried to create a connection that will hopefully pull her from the thoughts of skill and into sharing a dance with me… Again, this is simply what I concentrate on when I feel “fear”, however, automatically happens when I dance, for I’ve been practicing it for a while. Fear makes all of it break, hence why I must think of it to make it happen… I top all of this by looking deeply into her eyes, when accomplished there is a sense of connection unparalleled by a mere box/frame connection. Once you feel this connection you’ll never see salsa the same…

Again, this is just what I like to do to combat feelings of inadequacy where there shouldn’t be…

borikensalsero you are a star my friend !!!

I think the energetic aspect is the most interesting ... I did tai-chi for some time and I am trying to bring those same principles (the flow of energy) in to my salsa dancing. Your post has given me a lot to consider. Thanks.

Also one thing I am just thinking right now ... re: the shyness and feeling of inadequacy ... is that it is OK to feel like that ... and to accept how you feel.

I think to change something like this you have to accept it emotionally and be 'OK' with it ... rather than fighting or stuggling against it ... accept it and accept yourself and love yourself and things will change as if by magic.

All the time we are told that confident and loud is the way to be ... I do not think this is always so ... be quiet / at peace / harmony / silently powerful / connection with yourself and everything ... it is all good.

Hope I don't sound too crazy !!

[Lucretia]

Jamie, You are perfectly (in)sane. Watch my signature below.

Last night I was wondering what I really did write about subconscious streams. It doesn’t need to be a hocus-pocus wordless language. It could be a stream of body language, posture, mimic, eyes, pupils, wrinkles, scents of hormones and other stuff. Signals we all can take in but have forgotten to interpret. Well we do interpret but we have locked the door between right and left hemisphere. So the message never comes to the half that has the language. I guess it here meditation, tai-chi and qui-gong helps.

But sometimes a message comes to your awareness. And you don’t know from where. You just know.

I also believe you can send a message in the same way. If you focus on what you want to do – you really see it inside your mind – then the body takes the appropriate actions for you to reach your goal. If you would like to invite a beautiful girl for a dance your back strengthens up, you posture changes, you look big(ger) and strong(er), your eyes turns black when the pupil widens up etc etc. You are focused and you send that message to the girl.

I guess Borikensaleseros connection theory helps him in this work. A mental projection of what he wants. I will surely try it next time I go to a salsa club

Open your senses!

/Lucretia

[MacMoto]

I would love to go to a salsa congress ... just missed the UK one though ... have thought about going on a salsa holiday ... maybe barcelona ... dance the nights away and recover on the beach ... sunbathing all day long ... ahhhh ... bliss !!!.
I'm sure there will be another UK congress next year -- and if you can't wait that long, there are tons of smaller weekenders happening in the UK before that. See the Annual Salsa Congresses & Events (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4135) sticky -- there are four coming up between now and the end of this year: Salsa Cubana 2 (Parkfield, England -- Pacion and Timbafreak are going 8)), Salsa Max1 (Blackpool, England), Latin Explosion 2 (Brean Sands, England) and 5 Star Salsa Congress, London (I'm going to this one 8)).

As for a salsa holiday, I went to the SalsaMed Festival (near Salou, Spain) in May this year and would recommend it to anyone. The company that organised this holiday also runs regular salsa (and other dance) holidays to Spain and also Cuba. And there's always the Cannes Salsa Festival (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5313), which comes highly recommended by Lita_rulez (and I'm planning to go to next year :D).

[borikensalsero]

borikensalsero you are a star my friend !!!

Also one thing I am just thinking right now ... re: the shyness and feeling of inadequacy ... is that it is OK to feel like that ... and to accept how you feel.

All the time we are told that confident and loud is the way to be ... I do not think this is always so ... be quiet / at peace / harmony / silently powerful / connection with yourself and everything ... it is all good.

Hope I don't sound too crazy !!

Thank you so very much Jamie!!!! THANK YOU!

Indeed, do not fight your feelings, rather understand them, feel them, live them, become them.... You are feeling them because you must, there is something that needs to grow and feeling them will be the only way to transform those feelings into a different truth of who Jaime is and will be.

Note that all of the illuminated beings known to history have all reached a state of silence, peacefulness, harmony, connected to everything, yet they have all exuded a sense of quite confidence. For there is no choice for one who becomes in harmony with all to exude a sense of comfort with who they are, hence that comfort translates to others as an innocent awareness of the person’s confidence… Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, I forget the Indian dude’s name, etc, even when in hush silence people are said to have seen peace in them and their body reflect the confidence others lacked… Hmmmm …as if they knew something others didn’t…

So while in the western world confidence equals to loudness, the spiritual world and to oriental religious thought, loudness is an enlightened ego that lacks confidence and must “attack” the physical world to attempt omnipresence in a material world it doesn’t control but wants to portray it superiority to others. In all, the ego tries to become something it isn’t; confident… When a person is confident they need not say it, nor act it as per its material manifestation in the western world, for simply being lets the self know it is, hence others see that confidence that says nothing about actions towards the outside but rather the knowledge that it is…

Any person that mistakes their actions as a creation of confidence is a person who lacks self esteem, who isn’t confident, but has surely mistaken it as an ego seeking to bring worth to itself through its material status… Kind of like the guy with the expensive auto, everyone sees he is compensating for self esteem, yet he says that he is confident, and his daring actions and loud mouth towards the outside world, should let us know that his egotistical trip should be seen as confidence…

Where there is true confidence there is no ego.

[borikensalsero]

I guess Borikensaleseros connection theory helps him in this work. A mental projection of what he wants.
/Lucretia

Indeed lucretia, indeed... my other form of connecting to "metaphysical" world, is to use the Santeria way, and ask the Orishas to join me in the dance... This one I rarely use, for my lack of knowledge on the subject prevents me from understanding it more in depth... never the less it has worked like a charm... Such a great presence of energy causes those around me or immediately connected to me, to feel what I feel... A girl I met during the congresso this year told me, I felt you from the moment you touched me. (I extended my hand out and she grabbed it, to which she attributes why we had such a great dance) She went on to explain how she felt everything I was feeling, how it went into her and she felt it, she really felt it. :)

Everything we are was first a thought, it first lived in the metaphysical world, it was nothing more than an idea with no physical "value", yet today that idea has become us, it has manifested in this very physical world. To become a salsero, get a job, etc... all ideas that weren't and now are indeed "alive" have first lived in the confinements of thought.... the same with the metaphysical world, if we think "impossible" it will be impossible, but as you say, if we open our senses, they will become a "physical" reality....

I think we all are sounding very insane right about now. :D

[etchuck]

Yeah... i usually stop after the third "no". After two dances in which I get three "no's" I usually leave. And normally I won't go back for a month.

You must not get much value out of a congress ;)

Actually, I definitely go for the workshops more than for the socials... how'd you figure that? :)

But a bit more seriously, I do judge a social dance by how beginners and new faces are treated and make my local recommendations accordingly. I probably should write up a scoresheet and indicate on it the relative value of the criteria I hold for certain dances.

[Jamie]

Sorry to bore you all again with another update ... but I just got back from another amazing night of salsa (I am on a bit of a high right now).

Anyway ... with every dance I had tonight I was focusing my attention primarily on the energetic connection between myself and my partner ... and I can honestly say that for me ... it was a resounding success !!

I felt much better connection with my partners and relaxed and happy and chatting. Not only that ... but because I was focusing my attention on the energy ... I had diverted my attention away from thinking about the moves (so everything came natural and fluid like).

Going to do this every night now ... connect connect connect ...

I am becoming deangerously addicted to salsa now and I am sorely tempted to try this geneve congress ... a flight was only 60ukp return ...

Actually ... I am still a baby in the grand scheme of things ... but there you go ... thanks once again borikensalsero for sharing your insights.

[MacMoto]

Sorry to bore you all again with another update ... but I just got back from another amazing night of salsa (I am on a bit of a high right now).
No need to apologise -- it's great to hear you had a wonderful night. What you wrote has made me want to dance with you -- looking forward to a chance to meet you!

I am becoming deangerously addicted to salsa now and I am sorely tempted to try this geneve congress ... a flight was only 60ukp return ...
I know the feeling. 60 pounds!? Where from? The cheapest I can find would still cost me more than 150 pounds... :(

[Jamie]

No need to apologise -- it's great to hear you had a wonderful night. What you wrote has made me want to dance with you -- looking forward to a chance to meet you!

I am determined to get to some of these pontins things and maybe the geneve congress too ... so I'm sure we will meet MacMoto (looking forward to it too ... hoping u'll be gentle with me though).

I know the feeling. 60 pounds!? Where from? The cheapest I can find would still cost me more than 150 pounds... :(

It's with easyjet, only one catch, it's flying out of east midlands (nottingham) airport. Great for me (I live in Sheffield) but if you're in Scotland, not so good.

www.easyjet.com

EMA direct to Geneve. If you go out on the 28th OCT and return on 2nd NOV (time for sight seeing in Geneve) if cost 60.98 GBP.

See you there then ;-)

[Lucretia]

with every dance I had tonight I was focusing my attention primarily on the energetic connection between myself and my partner ... and I can honestly say that for me ... it was a resounding success !!

I felt much better connection with my partners and relaxed and happy and chatting. Not only that ... but because I was focusing my attention on the energy ... I had diverted my attention away from thinking about the moves (so everything came natural and fluid like).


:banana: :banana: :cheers: :banana: :banana:



/lucretia

[MacMoto]

I know the feeling. 60 pounds!? Where from? The cheapest I can find would still cost me more than 150 pounds... :(

It's with easyjet, only one catch, it's flying out of east midlands (nottingham) airport. Great for me (I live in Sheffield) but if you're in Scotland, not so good.

www.easyjet.com

EMA direct to Geneve. If you go out on the 28th OCT and return on 2nd NOV (time for sight seeing in Geneve) if cost 60.98 GBP.
Yes it helps to have direct flights from your local airport :(.
Hmm, I haven't thought about going via East Midland, but if I connect to the flights you are talking about from Edinburgh, it works out at 96.86 pounds, which isn't bad (even though it means leaving early, coming back late and lots of waiting at EMA).

Of course, staying in Geneva longer means higher accommodation (and feeding) costs. Going out on the 29th may be more feasible for me (only 10 pounds more for the flights).

I'll PM you on this.

[borikensalsero]

thanks once again borikensalsero for sharing your insights.

It is all my pleasure Jamie! Looking forward to more stories of great salsa nights from you!!!! Hope you enjoy each night more than the one before... :D

[rails]

You know, I don't often ask much more advanced followers to dance and I feel fine witht that. I don't recall ever being turned down by one, but with rare exception they all were obviously bored during the dance. I wasn't being insecure--the body language was unmistakable.

They were all polite (except one who thought it was a good idea to lecture me during the dance about how she didn't feel the lead clearly enough here and that move didn't fit the music there etc).

However, I want to have fun when I'm out dancing and I sure as heck am not having fun dancing with a bored partner. What I end up doing in this situation is readjusting to a practice mindset to get some benefit out of it. I pay attention to her and work on connection and precision and all that, but I just completely leave off the idea of connecting in the squishy, spiritual, musical way because there's nothing there.

I do, however, dance with followers who are a little or somewhat more advanced than I am. I usually am able to connect well with them. I know they'd rather dance with the advanced guys and I completely understand that. I would too, but they still seem to enjoy themselves and that's what's important to me.

[tacad]

However, I want to have fun when I'm out dancing and I sure as heck am not having fun dancing with a bored partner. What I end up doing in this situation is readjusting to a practice mindset to get some benefit out of it. I pay attention to her and work on connection and precision and all that, but I just completely leave off the idea of connecting in the squishy, spiritual, musical way because there's nothing there.


If there is little or no connection in the dance I usually end up talking with them while we dance and usually we can connect then even if it is on a lower level. Nothing is like that total connection where you dance as one but even the lower level connections have their value (lower level with respect to dancing, that is).

[Jamie]

Update time ...

Right ... I am now feeling a lot more natural and confident asking followers of all abilities for a dance ...

I spend the initial stages of a dance trying establishing a connection with my partner and then slowly building up the compexity of the moves.

I am feeling relaxed happy and confident 90% of the time (a big improvement from when I started).

However !! ... I've got a problem and feel unsure how to deal with it.

What happens when you develop a major crush on one of the regular dancers at your local scene (and she's unobtainable) ... !?

It is really unfortunate I know ... and even though I have not acted out of place or improper ... I still feel a bit bad / ashamed.

I wish I could just switch of feelings like a light switch ... but I do not seem to have control over them.

I also do not want it to spoil my enjoyment of dancing in my local scene.

Has anyone come across this before? How is best to resolve it? Can it be resolved?

[Vin]

Great going on getting more comfortable with the scene Jamie. As for the dance crush, many of us have been there. In fact a recent thread discussed just this topic.
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5774

To give you my honest opinion I would suggest not pushing anything with any scene regulars until you get very comfortable in the scene and even then tread carefully. The level you should be careful should depend on the size of the scene. The smaller the scene the more careful you should be.

In the meantime try and get a dance or two with her whenever you can and then enjoy the dance because there are few experiences better than a great dance with someone you are very attracted to.

[tacad]

Yeah, I went through this fairly recently. Turned out she was married. But the feelings were still there. I still danced with her. I was just careful not to cross any lines or flirt with her. After a while I decided to concentrate my efforts on available women. I don't see anything wrong with asking someone out by the way, but the dance world is small and we keep seeing each other at various dances so you have to be a bit careful. Attitude and not crossing lines, etc. You have to be able to be in the same room with this person later is all I'm saying. And it would be nice if she were able to say good things about you to others instead of bad things. I'm not up on the salsa scene though. Definitely defer to those who are.

[Danoo]

Update time ...

Right ... I am now feeling a lot more natural and confident asking followers of all abilities for a dance ...

I spend the initial stages of a dance trying establishing a connection with my partner and then slowly building up the compexity of the moves.

I am feeling relaxed happy and confident 90% of the time (a big improvement from when I started).

However !! ... I've got a problem and feel unsure how to deal with it.

What happens when you develop a major crush on one of the regular dancers at your local scene (and she's unobtainable) ... !?

It is really unfortunate I know ... and even though I have not acted out of place or improper ... I still feel a bit bad / ashamed.

I wish I could just switch of feelings like a light switch ... but I do not seem to have control over them.

I also do not want it to spoil my enjoyment of dancing in my local scene.

Has anyone come across this before? How is best to resolve it? Can it be resolved?

definitly with the crush problem lol

ive been there and im still there
but i just enjoy ALL of the dances i have with her :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

but after another 6 month i got used to ask followers, also very attractive followers. now after dancing almost for 3 years it is still a challenge to ask the best of the best for a dance. this summer e.g. when edie the salsafreak held a workshop in vienna she asked me the following evening if i wanted to dance with her.....and guess what...i told her i acutally couldn't because i was too tired. well, it wasn't a lie but of course this feeling was welcome, because I WAS afraid of dancing with her. :shock: Really stupid but that's the way it still is for me...this experience shouldn't demotivate anybody, however, just shows how I still feel when asking real good followers for a dance.


I wish really good dancers like her asked me to dance. :( I would jump at that chance!

Same here Sagitta. I would only turn Edie down if I had 2 broken legs and a sore arm... 8)

[MacMoto]

However !! ... I've got a problem and feel unsure how to deal with it.

What happens when you develop a major crush on one of the regular dancers at your local scene (and she's unobtainable) ... !?

It is really unfortunate I know ... and even though I have not acted out of place or improper ... I still feel a bit bad / ashamed.

I wish I could just switch of feelings like a light switch ... but I do not seem to have control over them.

I also do not want it to spoil my enjoyment of dancing in my local scene.

Has anyone come across this before? How is best to resolve it? Can it be resolved?
I think most of us here have had similar experiences to yours... dancefloor crushes happen all the time and are nothing to be ashamed of. How do you resolve it? Well, like any other crushes. Accept that it's not meant to be and hope for better luck next time. Try to stay friends with her. You don't want to end up in a situation where you feel you have to leave the scene so as not to face her again.

[Jamie]

I think most of us here have had similar experiences to yours... dancefloor crushes happen all the time and are nothing to be ashamed of. How do you resolve it? Well, like any other crushes. Accept that it's not meant to be and hope for better luck next time. Try to stay friends with her. You don't want to end up in a situation where you feel you have to leave the scene so as not to face her again.

:)

Are all crushes not meant to be MacMoto !?

I don't know ... it's hard to see her being interested in me though ... but she does have the most amazing smile and she's aimed it at me more than a few times ...

Totally agree about the stay friends with her (esp. as she is one of the best followers in my local scene) ... you can't have everything you want in life no matter how much you want it ... but that's no excuse not to be kind and gentleman like ...

The thing is ... whenever I see her ... I kind of lock up inside and find it hard to dance.

I believe everything should be moving and fluid constantly ... feelings ... emotions ... energy ... body ...

I am sure I will find a way to deal with this thing ... really don't want it to spoil my dancing ... which I'm really enjoying right now.

:)

[Sagitta]

Why is your dance crush unobtainable? Is she is married or has a special SO?

[jon]

Has anyone come across this before? How is best to resolve it? Can it be resolved?

You can ask her, and if you get shot down, deal with it.

You can wait around for years hoping she'll recognize your good qualities, but are likely to be disappointed.

You can try to turn the intensity of your feelings toward her into intensity of your dance connection (with her or others). That could have good effects.

[tacad]

The thing is ... whenever I see her ... I kind of lock up inside and find it hard to dance.

I believe everything should be moving and fluid constantly ... feelings ... emotions ... energy ... body ...
Yeah, that would be great. But it doesn't match my world. Some women I flow with, others I'm just ok with, and I lock up with other women. For the latter I stick to basics and don't try to be fantastic. Sometimes I'll relax more as the dance goes on. I mean we are human after all.

[Vin]

I agree when I am trying to impress a woman I try and keep it more basic.

[Jamie]

Why is your dance crush unobtainable? Is she is married or has a special SO?

She is married. However, that doesn't account for the looks she gives me and the connection we share when our eyes meet ...

I really do think each and every situation between people is unique and you can't tar everyone with the same brush. I didn't go looking for this situation, she just poped up in front of me one day, out of the blue. I was a goner from day 1.

I've never really expressed to her my interest in her. I'm guessing she can tell though, just from the eye contact.

[Adwiz]

She is married. However, that doesn't account for the looks she gives me and the connection we share when our eyes meet ...
I've never really expressed to her my interest in her. I'm guessing she can tell though, just from the eye contact.

Don't assume that because she looks at you sexy on the dance floor she has a thing for you. Reminds me of how Safeway had to put a stop to their policy of having checkout clerks smile at customers because too many guys became convinced the woman was interested in them sexually. Women love dancing and feel alive and sexy when they dance. The looks they give usually has nothing to do with a desire to extend those endorphin-motivated feelings off the dance floor. I love the sexy looks women give me when I'm dancing with them. It's part of the fun, and has nothing to do with extra-curricular desire.

[tacad]

Why is your dance crush unobtainable? Is she is married or has a special SO?

She is married. However, that doesn't account for the looks she gives me and the connection we share when our eyes meet ...

I really do think each and every situation between people is unique and you can't tar everyone with the same brush. I didn't go looking for this situation, she just poped up in front of me one day, out of the blue. I was a goner from day 1.

I've never really expressed to her my interest in her. I'm guessing she can tell though, just from the eye contact.
Yup, this is tricky. Heck, I was all set to ask this one woman out after having a number of dances together. I even talked with her a bit to see if the chemistry was there outside of the dance. Then she informed me she was married. In fact, she never had designs on me because not only was she married but she was ten years older than me. (I thought she was younger than me but she knew better somehow.) The chemistry still lasted for a few more weeks till I decided I had better move on to more fruitful grounds.

Jamie, move on to more fruitful grounds.

[Jamie]

Jamie, move on to more fruitful grounds.

That's probably the wise thing to do ... reminds me of the saying, "if a thing doesn't come naturally, then it's not worth havng".

I'd like to drop this discussion now too, if that's ok.

Thanks for all the suggestions and insights tho.

- Jamie.