Freestyle vs. Partner Dancing in Salsa [Archive]

motardmom

10-31-2004, 04:58 PM

What do you feel is easier for a beginner salsa dancer - to learn freestyle first or to immediately learn to dance with a partner?

I learned partner salsa. I am not comfortable with freestyle dancing in general, I just never really did it. *shrug* Even growing up, going to school, I never did that type of dancing. I learned partner dancing and I always danced with boys who knew how to dance that style of dancing. (We always looked great at dances, when everyone else is doing the hug-and-sway and we were two stepping, waltzing, or swinging!)

A few weeks ago I was doing cha cha cha with my friend and we were both getting really sweaty so he pulled out his hanky to dry off. We ended up not in a dance hold - and he started doing shines (or more freestyle stuff) and I was just kind of standing there doing my basic thinking, "gee, I should do something cool and I have no clue what to do..." I can't remember exactly what I did, but I do remember we both laughed about it afterwards. :oops: It's like when I loose contact with my partner, all of a sudden I have a brain freeze and can't dance anymore. :lol: The freestyle stuff is definitely what I need to get more comfortable with.

SDsalsaguy

10-31-2004, 09:58 PM

To me salsa is, first and foremost, a partner dance. this doesn't mean there aren't shines, etc., but if I want to learn how to dance salsa, that means learning how to do so with a partner. Others may have a different view, and that's cool too, I'm just saying how I feel about it after all.

11-01-2004, 07:13 AM

Hmm....

I think if it's someone's very first night learning salsa, then doing the steps alone to the music is probably the very first thing that needs to be done.

Having said that, the very next thing would be (IMHO) to partner up and get the feel of dancing together.

So my vote is partner work is more important to the beginner.

Free styling tends to bring images of shines and style/sabor/flava which is a little too much for a raw beginner.

borikensalsero

11-01-2004, 08:43 AM

I don't know which might be easier since they are both different and really either approach is more than suitable...

To me, I can't have the blind lead the blind, so I'd go with teaching each the basic, how to "carry" their body, some solo work, then when they are comfy with themselves within the music, teach how to dance together... I believe that by teaching each dancer how to dance alone at first dancers have a chance to develop musicality and understand the music by not depending on one another to do what either of them doesn’t know. I do have to keep in mind that today salsa dancing is thought off more of a I hold you, you hold me dance, so that might influence how long I stay keeping boys and girls apart. To me, first we walk alone, then we run together...

In classes we get guys blaming girls, girls blaming guys, yet they are both out of whack talking about things they have no idea about and end up confusing each other more than they are...

a combination of the two might just be the best thing.

squirrel

11-01-2004, 09:01 AM

I agree with boriken...! I prefer to teach my students how to feel comfortable with the music and how to follow the beat... then about partner dancing!
Of course, I wouldn't call teaching beginners basic steps "freestyle", so I voted partner dancing!
Freestyle = shines IMHO, so I would go through that much later, when they have already learned (and are a little more comfortable with) basic steps!

youngsta

11-01-2004, 09:02 AM

Depends on their background. Learning the partnering part was extremely hard for me because I'd never been exposed to it. I was a breakdancer growing up and had been "freestyle" dancing to RnB since I was a kid. It was just a normal daily thing in my family to dance and show off. So learning shines would have been an easier intro for me, but I didn't have the option! :lol: I started off partnering and worked through that nightmare. Now that I'm pretty comfortable with that my affinity for freestyling comes out more and more! :D

Sagitta

11-01-2004, 09:55 AM

Re: guys and girls blaming each other in class. This is why we have instructors. Once these guiys and girls dance with the instructor they know whether or not thay have problems that they should fix. In the latin class that I help out in people usually try to help each other out and if they are not sure they call the instructor.

Youngsta it would be interesting to have classes that focus on free styling for beginners and have them attend. The impression that I get is that even those who might benefit by trying out that route don't as such classes seem to be targeted to the more experienced dancers...

borikensalsero

11-01-2004, 10:18 AM

Re: guys and girls blaming each other in class. This is why we have instructors.

This just reminded me of a class I went to once, The istructor was teaching what I call, simply the worst possible way to hold a lady during a "T-Stance". I couldn't believe how in the world a girl could try to get balance with her arms higher than her head, with her hands, palms facing the leader... Then when I looked around all of the men where doing the same thing! OMG!!!

That day I finally noticed that sometimes we teach what we think is the "proper" way to do things, when in fact a little more knowledge on the subject will yield a different result...

The same happened from another instructor that told me, you MUST hold the girl here if you ever want to do this move. It is a MUST and the ONLY way to do it! I smiled and said OK, thank you! I can do the move even with legs, holding the girl where-ever I want and it comes to my intentions even with the least of skilled dancers. The instructor was simply teaching what he was taught, hence turned it into a must rule, only way, never realizing the same as the above, a little more knowledge will yield a different result!

It is like fernando once said, practice can only make perfect if we know what we practice is "correct". If we don't, all we be perfecting is the mess we are getting ourselves into, to one day, teach that mess as the "correct way".

That is why, even if I don't like how ballroom dancing looks nor care for skill, I love those ballroom dancers, the dancers are so skilled! They all seem to know the "fittest" way to do a given something, unlike the street world where at times harmfull techniques are taught, in ballroom, they know when something is simply not very well executed, as if safty for the dancers was the number one concern. We just have to learn a little something something from ballroom!

peachexploration

11-01-2004, 10:42 AM

....To me, I can't have the blind lead the blind, so I'd go with teaching each the basic, how to "carry" their body, some solo work, then when they are comfy with themselves within the music, teach how to dance together... I believe that by teaching each dancer how to dance alone at first dancers have a chance to develop musicality and understand the music by not depending on one another to do what either of them doesn’t know. ......

I like this and totally agree, Boriken. If I were to ever teach, this is how I would conduct the first classes for beginners. I remember my very Salsa class (although it was a positive experience), all of 5 minutes was spent on solo work and then individuals were thrown together in partnerships and many of the beginning dancers really had no idea of what to do when it came to music. Later on, when an instructor said, "Now today, we are going to learn shines". Almost everyone looked like this :shock: :lol: . I did okay but quite a few dancers were really struggling. Particularly when the instruction kept saying, "Just feel the music". I realize that quite a few instructors fear that if they don't start the partner work immediately, they may lose students. But I admire the instructors not to mention trust them more who start this way (individual work). So yes, individual work at first, is better and beneficial in the long run musically and developmentally. :D

mexi_gabacho

11-01-2004, 01:16 PM

Where I occasionally teach (the beginner levels)... our first class is on the basic and the standard right turn and inside turn (exibe, enchulfa/enchufle). So, we teach everything individually first, and then have them do partner work after. It seems to work well. This is all done within the first 1 hour class (it still amazes me how much we are able to teach in 1 hour).

Personally, I sometimes feel like we still rush the students into partner work too quickly, not letting them get posture, relaxed legs, and a more relaxed "feel" for the music first. BUT, unfortunately, if you do this... it is hard for the school to keep the students interested and coming back. Most students want to feel like they are "dancing on the first day". It's a delicate balance for salsa schools like the one I go to and occasionally teach for.

Since alot of our students already have a pretty good exposure to the music, I don't think we have to spend TOO much time on it, but I still think it would ultimately benefit all the students more to learn how to move their own body around BEFORE worrying about doing it with a partner.

What Boriken said is SOOOOO true about the "blame game" when you have "the blind leading the blind", and I believe a decent amount of individual work would help cut down alot of that (at least at the beginner levels).

Danoo

11-01-2004, 01:28 PM

JoanOfArcadia338

11-01-2004, 07:21 PM

Thank you so much for your feedback!! I truly appreciate it! What does IMHO mean? I'm glad so many people answered because I just started learning myself. Frankly, I think freestyle looks awesome and at the moment I really want to do some. Maybe it's because our current routine is rather sadistic lol - for the ladies anyway. LOL Once again, thank you everyone for your input!! :D

SDsalsaguy

11-01-2004, 07:24 PM

What does IMHO mean?
IMHO = in my humble opinion

Big10

11-02-2004, 02:47 AM

I think it's both easier and better to learn freestyle Salsa first. However, the vast majority of beginners want to know partner moves right away, so instructors/studios are forced to cater to the demand (kind of like.mexi_gabacho said).

From my point of view, freestyle is easier because it doesn't add the complications of frame and resistance that are necessary for partnerwork. I also think freestyle is better because freestyle dancing provides more focus on timing, body movement, and musicality. In other words, I think freestyle dancing puts you more in touch with the music, which should be the foundation of any dance, anyway.

Speaking from personal experience, I learned partnerwork in Salsa like everybody else -- but I think I finally "got it" after hours of dancing Salsa alone in my kitchen, bedroom, and living room. :wink: All that solo dancing (and listening) helped me feel the "1" without overtly thinking as much, which in turn made my partnering moves flow much better. It also became easier to learn new moves and incorporate various types of styling. I began to feel a noticeable change in my ability to lead followers of all skill levels, including more positive feedback from them, too.

squirrel

11-02-2004, 03:16 AM

As a Salsa instructor, I know what you guys mean... so many of my students asked me "And just when are we going to learn how to partner dance?" and it's so hard to explain they have to really master the basics first! I mean, they get bored of rehearsing CBL for 2 hours! And when I teach CBL, I just teach it independently for guys and gals and have them rehearse it alone (for everybody to know the steps and be able to do them... on slots and without losing their balance!). Even the more advanced students want to learn "patterns"! They don't care about body isolation... about looking natural and making the dance "flow"... no, they wanna dance like the Mayan competitors! :evil: :evil:
I think people should be able to follow the beat of the music (no matter which beat)... and when one really knows the basic steps and can change from one to another without completely losing it, then they should try partner dance! :)
I have this girl, she's quite advanced and a good follow... but she cannot do the CBL alone without losing her balance or going on a diagonal (instead on a slot)... well... she didn't start out as my student! :)

Cist

11-02-2004, 03:17 AM

freestyle! although I don't really agree on the terminology. freestyle would either be movement without any rules or in terms of salsa free shines. the difference between free shines and shines is: a shine is simply a pattern of steps you dance on your own, whereas free shines are movements without any pattern.

because latter is very much harder to do (if you want to make it look good) a beginner would depending on which style he/she learns start with solo movement (basic step, simple turn, etc.). These solo movements are basics you could dance on your own if you wanted to but of course you will dance them with a partner at a given time. Separated to these solo movements I would also teach a beginner some simple shines....slides, or kicks or whatever.

I think its very important for a beginner to learn the motion first before starting to lead, also to get rid of the fear "dancing alone". many dancers here in austria just don't like shines when dancing l.a. style. It gets very boring to watch their dance after a while. The reason for this behaviour is: you learn to many dance patterns and to few shines. That's why it's uncomfortable to do some solos.

MacMoto

11-03-2004, 07:24 AM

What do you feel is easier for a beginner salsa dancer - to learn freestyle first or to immediately learn to dance with a partner?
What do you mean by "freestyle"? Solo shines? Night club styling dancing (no prescribed steps) to salsa music? If the former, I find shines to be quite difficult. When the leader lets me go, I usually end up doing stylised basic steps with shimmies and body waves or mirror what the leader does. You can't really start learning shines until you are comfortable with basic steps. If you mean the latter, I don't think that's salsa dancing -- just club dancing done to salsa music.

I think the way salsa is usually taught is:
1. Solo basic steps (forward step, side step, back step, etc.)
2. Partnering (basic steps with partner, simple turns, CBL, etc.)
3. Shines (only after you've learned basic partnering)

Partnering is the foundation of salsa dancing (along with basic steps of course), and learning shines without learning partnering first seems wrong to me. You can dance salsa without knowing any shines but you need basic partnering skills if you want to dance salsa.

alvaro

11-03-2004, 10:38 AM

hi!

I think emphasis should always be on partner dancing. From the very first class.

The reason is that moving with someones weight attached to you -and i'm not even beginning to think about two bodies walking around, connected as if there is just one- , moving guiding someone is toooo different from dancing solo. I've seen it done both ways, i took a beginners class where the first ten (ten!) classes were dancing solo - the idea was to master the timing and musicality first to make partnering easier. It just doesnt work. See, we have this (cultural?) belief that in order to make things simpler you have to break them into pieces, but it doesnt always work that way: for most beginners i've seen (myself includded) doing a side to side basic is a completely different move from doing a side to side basic while raising your left hand (that happens to have a girl attached to it) and then doing a circular motion without taking that girl out of balance.
A simple exercise: everyone here is probably able to clap a clave beat while dancing while saying 'Tu-TuM...Pah' alongside the conga, so take someone that doesnt dance salsa and:

teach him to tap the clave pattern on a table
teach him to tap the loud cowbell note (1-3-5-7) on a table
now ask him to do both at once.
How easy that was?

Ok, now try this:
You tap on the table, right hand clave, left hand loud cowbell.
Ask him to copy you.
People do it right away!. Children play much more complicated rhythm patterns to spend time in classes at school! (i've seen it)

Some things its easier and better, i believe, not to break apart - at least not right away-

The CBL, for example: i really hate it when (every class i've been to) they take girls to one side of the room, guys to the other and 'teach' the CBL. You now have a very hard time -and, the longer they practiced 'solo' the harder it is- getting a good CBL: there is no 'weight' feel to it.

The best beginners class i've seen started with everybody (60+ people) facing the same direction and learning to do the basic: side to side, front to back, on the spot. After a few songs playing with it then a few variations: walking forward, to the sides, backwards. Then came practicing a few 'shines', just for the sake of playing (the basic gets learned 'deeper' when you try to add stuff on top of it) and laughing - in fact, shines were never done again (four months beginners class).
This was a little more than half the first class. We then formed a 'rueda' and the simple things we practiced at the beginning allowed us to change partners. From then it was partner dance (cuban rueda).

I'm not a salsa teacher ... but i am a teacher so this topic interests me a lot! When i go to classes i'm always watching if people learn, what are the difficulties they have, things that the teacher is doing but is not aware that he is doing and so on. And i dont really like the way things are taught (here, and that doesnt mean that i pretend to know how to do it better). Once i get to an advanced dancing level (for me that is: being able to establish a connection with my partner so that i can lead us through any move/combo (thats one goal) and feel the way she feels the music and communicate the way i feel it and immerse us into the music (thats another)... ) i'll certainly try to figure out how to teach it. But i'm getting off topic here.

borikensalsero

11-03-2004, 11:57 AM

That was a good post alvaro. I don’t disagree that it is a good way and can help others, but I’d like to add a few more thoughts on the “other” approach.

The real issue I have with salsa dancing is timing and musicality, not really physically holding one another and moving as one, for it matters not how well 2 people move together, if there is no sense of musicality, nor timing by either the leader or the follower, then they aren’t really accomplishing anything within the music.

Today, it is everywhere, truly advanced dancers that haven’t the slightest clue as how to apply musicality to a song, hence, no matter how beautifully together the couple looks, it means nothing because there is music to follow. I’d accept it if there was no music and they were in synch, then yes, they are physically one, but the difference here is the music. If there is music, then dance to it, as it calls for, not as moves and patterns taught during partner work say. If that is the case turn the music off and go off, then and only then can two musicality-less dancers can say, we are one with in the music.

What I see with partner work approach first is instant gratification, as opposed to, I’ll pay the price today and tomorrow it will double fold because of what today I’ve sacrificed for a brighter future. To dance salsa, the first lessons should on, feel the music, feel yourself, feel alive, be the music, dance to the beat, dance with in the music. Understanding of how we fit into the music is paramount, not as together holding hands, but how I as an individual fit within the music.

To me salsa dancing is like a relationship, before I ever get to consummate with my object of affection, I will be damn sure I know how the game is played. By game I don’t mean the rules of getting some, but rather know myself, know and feel changes in the ambiance (music), act accordingly (know how to handle myself with in the music before ever approaching togetherness) while I’m still years away from climax in the hands of my object of affection. True it will be that our first physical togetherness will lack the expertise in the art of love making, but the ambience, how I handle myself, and how I understood and reacted to the vibes in the air, will give that first moment a joy and feeling that getting to home plate the first night will lack, even when we have had our bumps and bruises while we are together for the very first time.

Emotions make the difference in all experiences, it matters not how good I shake it, if I’m not able to emotionally satisfy the lady I’ve done nothing! There is no way a person can satisfy the deep emotional needs of another, if we don’t know ourselves, nor have ever experienced those very emotions. Partner work to me is the decoration and design of the relationship, while musicality/self awareness taught by solo work is the foundation and understanding of the role I play in the relationship. One is how material the other emotional.

Once we understand movement, we will rapidly build on sharing our space with others. In my opinion, I must first know how to handle myself, before I ever attempt in handling another person.
It isn’t to say that the partner work approach isn’t useful, or the fittest way for others, I’m just presenting another way.

Sorry, I have to run for lunch… I wish I could expand a little more, but the guys are waiting for me. :(

alvaro

11-03-2004, 05:04 PM

thanks a lot for your thoughts, borinken!. as always, profound and enlightening!. :D

I started writing, and it grew out of proportion :?, i'll better write two posts.

I fully agree that music is the most important thing!.
Also, as with any arts i dont believe there is right or wrong ways to teach ... and i realize that i sounded like that in my post -i apologize- , i was thinking inside that mindframe at the moment. But really, if the teacher feels and loves the music, and feels and loves and respects the dance and the students and knows what he wants from and for them ... then i'll trust him doing classes anyway he likes and i'm sure every one will benefit and grow!

---
in the following post i'll share a few experiences that might be related to this things. But thats a might, and its a long post ... hence the split.
---

alvaro

11-03-2004, 05:14 PM

Please, let me tell a few things i've experienced that probably everyone can relate in some way:

A long time ago, playing basketball with my cousin, one on one 21 pts. I'm a bad 3pt shooter but there i go, i shoot a three it goes in. And i realize that i cant miss. Just like that, i was locked to the basket as if the basket was part of my hand. It actually felt part of my arm. My cousin challenged me to do it again and didnt defend, i was smiling -because i knew i couldnt miss, and dropped maybe four more 3's in a row. Then the feeling went away, just to make sure i shot one more, good release but nope - in and out.

Years later, i was training aikido. I partnered with a very strong guy from japan that was visiting, his attack was very strong and his rhythm very fast so i got tired quickly. Then, at some point, it happened: he attacked, i stepped into the attack and when our arms made contact we were locked. Just like the basket, he was part of my arm like two opposing poles of a magnet, i just let the technique complete itself and when he stood up he said 'this one was proffessional'.

Now, a few weeks ago. I was dancing with my girlfriend at a cuban place nearby, cuban song playing. Then, out of the blue it happened: i'm preparing for a 'dile que no' and suddenly i'm 'locked' in the music. I love music (i dont 'have any musical talent whatsoever': rhythmless, tone-deaf...): i'll get high listening to pink floyd, cry listening to my bloody valentine, jump -literally- around the house smiling to mozart's jupiter ... but i never experienced anything like it: just like that basket, just like the aikido thing. The music filled me, i felt what was going to happen ... like being carried by a wave in the ocean. I knew i could do anything, so i just smiled, stood straight wished to step forward and let the wave carry me there ... and back. Then the lock is gone, i'm smiling in awe and my girlfriend is saying WOW!. Days later she asked me to do that 'move' again like 'you stepped forward but delayed a little the backstep with your body...' whatever, i told her not to go there: i couldn't possibly try to do it again, since it wasnt me who did it the first time!.

Ok, why i'm telling all this?. To quote a little bit of borinken -bold is mine- (but i'm actually thinking about almost all his posts here):
To dance salsa, the first lessons should on, feel the music, feel yourself, feel alive, be the music, dance to the beat, dance with in the music

Yes, i want to be able to dance an entire song (sub-)merged with my partner into the music!. How??!!. Hey! i felt one half of that for maybe a whopping three seconds and now all my dancing seems dull!. I can only try to imagine Borinken's (and of course everyone that lives in that world i got a mere half-glimpse-in-the-dark of) frustration when they watch people go through the motions on the dance floor, oblivious to the music, trying to look good and advanced, and cool...

Probably every dancer will feel that way at some point, i guess. But the question is how do we get there 'everytime', for a whole 'song' (evening... lifetime... ). Is it possible to teach/learn it?

So, back to teaching, and beginners. I couldn't agree more that the most important thing is -well- the music. It's also one of the reasons i got into dancing: it's something i'm not supposed to be able to do!. My girlfriend used to teach me doing something like what borinken suggested for beginners - play with the music: she put Ponceña's 'fuego en el 23' (the long live version), thats just as perfect as perfect salsa can be. I listen to it and go crazy, then it stops and i wish i was there in that concert. I disgress again:oops: . So she played the song and we would start running around the house, playing with each other: jumping, teasing, throwing things, rolling on the floor -anything!- ... that was one of the turning points in my dancing, and she has really got me to feel the music differently, listening to it differently. And when we talk about our 'how-to-teach-salsa?' thoughts this is how we start our imaginary classes ...

Still there is a leap somewhere. Listening fully to the music is great ... but like a zen koan ... doesnt matter how much -or well- you listen to the music there is much more than that.

So please, please, forgive me for this long posts ... in my defense i can tell you that education is my passion. We set so many limits upon ourselves - and worse, on our children. When in fact we dont know what the limits are, or even if there is any at all. I started learning to dance with the question in my mind 'how far can i develop?', because it's something i realized i had the belief i couldnt do, and there are things that i know how to do that i'd like to be able to teach. When someone tells me 'i can't' i want to be able to know that it is possible.

borikensalsero

11-03-2004, 05:29 PM

alvaro, no need to appologize for length! the posts were truly wonderful! I could feel myself runing around the house with you guys, hope you don't mind the third wheel, listening to fuego en la 23. :)

to be... someone said something like that once. :D

It is an amazing feeling to be that when we dance, it truly feels like it isn't us (body) doing it... An exhuberant feeling which words truly lessen.

clave

11-03-2004, 10:32 PM

What do you feel is easier for a beginner salsa dancer - to learn freestyle first or to immediately learn to dance with a partner? Freestyle would give the person a basis of what salsa feels like in general without being lead or having to lead. But then again partner dancing straight off gives the girl a learning experience because in a way she's being told what to do. As for a guy I really don't know if learning leading first helps...it sounds as if it would further confuse the beginner individual.
Wow, this topic has the electoral college divided almost like the.....well, let's not go there. :twisted:

I don't think either form of dancing is "easier" to learn, they are quite different skills. I tend to agree with the few who said that salsa is first and foremost a partner dance. From that angle teaching shines only would scare away most students. On the other hand, breaking down the basic patterns so that leads and follows can do them alone, in the slot and on the beat is essential. Practicing complicated shines, spins and so on greatly reinforces the basics.

My favorite teachers all use a very similar format. Every class starts with about fifteen minutes of progressively more difficult shines, then goes into partner work. The shines are a great warm-up and an excellent way to prevent injuries common in beginner partner-work. As the students progress, relatively more time is spent on accuracy and balance, so that by the time some of them join a performance team about half of every practice session is spent on technical exercises and the other half on choreography. Nowadays it is quite easy for me to spot dancers in a club who are on a dance team, their motion looks neater, balance never wavers no matter what their partner does. This looks quite distinct from the "dancing just to relax" crowd.

Now, I have a pet peeve about salsa instruction: I would like a third option on the poll called improvisation. By far the biggest hump for a lead is getting out of "beginner hell" where one is incapable of applying moves taught in class during a social dance. I know more guys who started taking lessons, got stuck below this stage and effectively quit, than guys who eventually became competent social dancers. I think the way out of this is neither shines nor partnering combinations, but rather to teach improvisation in a structured manner from the very beginning. This would also speed up the correction of back-leading tendency most beginning follows have. So, my ideal progressive beginner lesson would go as follows:

1. Fifteen minutes of shines to warm up and teach basic motion. String together three shines, one easy, one medium and one difficult, so that every student gets challenged at some point.

2. Half an hour of well broken-down partner patterns. Introduce one, at most two, new patterns per class. Make the leads and follows go through their parts separately, then combine. Briefly revisit patterns taught in previous lessons. Name every pattern for easy reference in the future.

3. Fifteen minutes of improvisation. Let the couples dance to continuous music, rotating every couple of minutes. Go around the room and challenge every lead in turn to combine however many moves he knows by heart, but so that he goes through them continuously and never in the same order twice. Challenge the faster-learning ones to avoid inserting a basic step between the moves. This can already be done with three moves, so do this as early as the second lesson in a progressive session.

Those of you who teach, I'd be interested to hear if you've ever tried item 3 and how did it go.

Sagitta

11-03-2004, 10:49 PM

I have assisted, taken classes and have taught a couple lessons to fill in. In terms of teaching it is tough to get people to break out of the routine and mix things up. Whenever I participate in any class I always mix it up, even if I haven't got the move being taught down pat. I make sure that my partner is not just doing what she thinkis she shoudl do but follows. The only way for both follower and leader to really get teh most out of any class is for this to be true.

Big10

11-03-2004, 11:43 PM

Interesting ideas, clave, although I'm sure we'll have to just agree to disagree on some of them. :wink:

I did want to chime in with some particular comments on this quote, though:
3. Fifteen minutes of improvisation. Let the couples dance to continuous music, rotating every couple of minutes. Go around the room and challenge every lead in turn to combine however many moves he knows by heart, but so that he goes through them continuously and never in the same order twice. Challenge the faster-learning ones to avoid inserting a basic step between the moves. This can already be done with three moves, so do this as early as the second lesson in a progressive session.

Those of you who teach, I'd be interested to hear if you've ever tried item 3 and how did it go.
I don't teach, but it sounds like you're expecting perhaps too much from beginners. Even at just three moves, I think your proposal is inviting a bit of brain freeze from beginning leaders over the course of a couple of minutes -- especially if you're going to encourage some of them to avoid even doing the basic step for a brief mental break. It might be easier to say "don't do more than 4 basics in a row," rather than cutting out basics altogether. My best instructor had a policy of not doing the same thing for more than 15 seconds, which actually covers a lot of basics (depending on the tempo of the song), yet still forces enough variety over the course of a four-minute song. Forcing a beginning leader to execute too many "moves" in a row will just cause brain overload....and also get away from the music interpretation aspect of dancing.

That gets me to my second comment. Your proposed structure strikes me as contrary to true "improvisation" -- at least as I have always understood the term. When I think of "improvising" to the music, I'm not as focused on making sure I used every move I know during the course of a single song, or making sure I don't repeat a move I did five 8-counts ago -- I'm just focused on what the music is making me feel now, during this 8-count. If the music has some repetitive portions, then perhaps I'll repeat a move. If the music slows down (or alternatively is too fast) so that I just feel like doing the basic, then I do the basic.

I don't think that repetition and/or doing the basic are inconsistent with "improvisation." Doing whatever the music makes you feel (constrained only by the technique appropriate to that particular dance) is "improvisation," to me. Your proposal seems to encourage a little too much thinking about the moves, and not enough feeling the music.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, or if there's some portion of your concept that you think I'm missing.

Cist

11-04-2004, 02:00 AM

That gets me to my second comment. Your proposed structure strikes me as contrary to true "improvisation" -- at least as I have always understood the term. When I think of "improvising" to the music, I'm not as focused on making sure I used every move I know during the course of a single song, or making sure I don't repeat a move I did five 8-counts ago -- I'm just focused on what the music is making me feel now, during this 8-count. If the music has some repetitive portions, then perhaps I'll repeat a move. If the music slows down (or alternatively is too fast) so that I just feel like doing the basic, then I do the basic.

I don't think that repetition and/or doing the basic are inconsistent with "improvisation." Doing whatever the music makes you feel (constrained only by the technique appropriate to that particular dance) is "improvisation," to me. Your proposal seems to encourage a little too much thinking about the moves, and not enough feeling the music.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, or if there's some portion of your concept that you think I'm missing.

I think you're absolutely right, at least for my personal feeling.

To "frame" improvisation isn't possible in my understanding of this word. As you explained...the beautiful thing about improvisation is: you do what you think you have to do just when it happens. It's a breakout of any kind of pattern.

Improvisation can't be taught but only practiced .... therefore I don't think it's possible for a beginner to worry about improvisation because he has to think about so many other things: beat, timing, leading, patterns, etc foremost before he can free his mind and truly dance to the music. In my case it took me 2 years before I startet to experiment with improvisation.

squirrel

11-04-2004, 05:09 AM

Interesting posts guys! :)

I am not going to enter an argument about what should be emphasised first... it is obvious there are differences... :) which is actually good, because it'd be boring to be of the same opinion! :)

Still, I have this huge problem... I am teaching 2 hours classes, not one hour classes! I mean, I hardly get warmed up within 1/2 an hour, let alone teach something!

And I feel the more time I have, the better I can emphasise thigs I think are important!

For instance, I always dance at least once with my students during each class! I mean, I want to see how they lead and if they're doing it ok... and sometimes it's harder to see where the problem is unless you do it yourself! Also, I like rehearsing basic stuff... a lot! I know very few people rehearse at home... and try to give them the chance during class!

What do you guys think about that? Would 2-hour classes be ok with you??? I'd have 3-hour classes with instructors if I could! :)

Cist

11-04-2004, 05:55 AM

@squirrel: a usual class here in Vienna will last about 80 min.

I always offered classes with almost no time limits....well of course they shouldn't have lasted longer than 4 hours because of the venue
s rental terms .
The reason for this decission was, I didn't care about the money, I really cared about the dancing and teaching. To conclude, every student (especially beginners) had enough after 120 minutes at maximum. Why was that? Since I only cared about the dancing and my classes were limited to about 5 couples it was very very intense for everybody. The classes drifted to some sort of private lessons. On the other hand I also did shines and body movements very intense in every class.

For my personal part I like doing 2,5 hours of intense training or maybe also 3 hours if I feel fit. But it's rather rare that the training is really intense due to the huge amount of dancers in one class and the different point of views. For me dance training is a sport where I really get to sweat, for others it's more an entertainment.

squirrel

11-04-2004, 06:09 AM

Well, the club where I have my classes is ok - rental wise I mean...

And I think that offering 2 hours to my students (with a break of 5-10 min in between) is much better that going for the regular 1 hour class... :)

Just my 2 cents!

Cist

11-04-2004, 06:26 AM

And I think that offering 2 hours to my students (with a break of 5-10 min in between) is much better that going for the regular 1 hour class... :)

exactly, just except for the break :lol: - just kiddin'

squirrel

11-04-2004, 06:49 AM

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

peachexploration

11-04-2004, 02:09 PM

alvaro

11-05-2004, 10:45 AM

(...)I did want to chime in with some particular comments on this quote, though:

3. Fifteen minutes of improvisation (...)
(...) I don't teach, but it sounds like you're expecting perhaps too much from beginners (...)
That gets me to my second comment. Your proposed structure strikes me as contrary to true "improvisation" (...) Please correct me if I'm wrong, or if there's some portion of your concept that you think I'm missing.
...Whenever I participate in any class I always mix it up...

I dont like 1h classes, i think it's too little time (unless the class is very carefully planned - which is not often the case here), but for a 1h class i really like clave's timeline.
Big10, i'm not pretending to know clave's thoughts here, but maybe that if we change his wording: "15 minutes of mixing it up" (instead of "15 minutes of improvisation") --at least i understood it this way-- then we will agree that it is a (very) good thing (??). Sagitta pointed out one of the reasons ... and since he seems to be a very good dancer he might only be aware of that one!. :) But --speaking for myself, and for those slow learners i know (most of the guys in a beginners-intermed. class)-- let's say there are stages for truly learning a set of moves.
First you learn the moves, then you interiorize the moves, finally you start communicating with those moves.
I think clave was aiming at the second step: start making the moves yours, not have¡ing to think about doing them four counts in advance. Thats a very hard step for beginners and they cant avoid it!. Either they do it a little in class or they will have to do it later on the dance floor -- and it will be harder!. Because on the dancefloor the knowledge is not as 'fresh' (at least a couple hours have gone by), there are many distractions, and you are not focusing on learning but on having a good time, take care of the girl, interpret the music, ....
If you keep the number of new moves low i think that everybody will be fine!

And I think that offering 2 hours to my students (with a break of 5-10 min in between) is much better that going for the regular 1 hour class...
I like 2h classes!

clave

11-05-2004, 08:12 PM

Big10, i'm not pretending to know clave's thoughts here, but maybe that if we change his wording: "15 minutes of mixing it up" (instead of "15 minutes of improvisation") --at least i understood it this way-- then we will agree that it is a (very) good thing (??).
Yes, perhaps the word "improvisation" was a poor choice. The point is that one should systematically encourage students to break out of the syllabus pattern. Every class I've ever been to teaches one sequence of moves and the students are expected to repeat it or portions of it until time runs out.

To "frame" improvisation isn't possible in my understanding of this word. As you explained...the beautiful thing about improvisation is: you do what you think you have to do just when it happens. It's a breakout of any kind of pattern.

Improvisation can't be taught but only practiced .... therefore I don't think it's possible for a beginner to worry about improvisation because he has to think about so many other things: beat, timing, leading, patterns, etc foremost before he can free his mind and truly dance to the music. In my case it took me 2 years before I startet to experiment with improvisation.
Ah, see, this is what I thought too for over twenty years. I played music in a very rigid fashion, learning a composition and repeating forever what was on paper. At one point I got hooked on jazz, and had an epiphany regarding the true nature of improvisation. It is simply a mosaic of well-learned elements--musicians don't just come up with the stuff on stage, they may insert this phrase here and that phrase there, akin to walking through a well-known forest and choosing which path to take on a whim. This realization completely changed the way I view new music: I now take well-rounded phrases and make them mine, instead of commiting the entire tome to memory. This realization also left me not a little bit miffed at the many years of formal music education which neglected to teach me this simple fact! :?

Anyhow, my point is: it took you two years of dancing to come to this juncture; it took me well over one year. I truly believe that the path doesn't have to be this tortuous, that if one taught this concept of "mixing it up" from the very beginning, and systematically encouraged it in every class, that most people would "start experimenting" with improvisation in a matter of months instead of years.

I don't teach, but it sounds like you're expecting perhaps too much from beginners. Even at just three moves, I think your proposal is inviting a bit of brain freeze from beginning leaders over the course of a couple of minutes -- especially if you're going to encourage some of them to avoid even doing the basic step for a brief mental break.
The key word here is not "expecting" but rather encouraging. For example, what can you reasonably teach a talented novice in one lesson? I'd say, in addition to the basic step, one could do follow cw pivot and lead cw pivot. Simple. That's three moves right there! Now, every class I've ever gone to would drill into you basic-followpivot-leadpivot-repeat sequence. Then you go out to a club, do your sequence about three times, that's 27 seconds at an average salsa beat, and by that time you and your partner are totally bored out of your minds and you realize that there are four minutes thirty three seconds of agony left to pad with lame apologies and embarrased smiles. Yep, been there done that :oops:.

Now take a different scenario where you're taught the exact same set of moves, but you're told "look what you can do with these three simple moves: b-f-l is what I just taught you; but you can also do b-l-f, l-b-f, l-f-b, f-l-b, f-b-l. Now do whichever variation comes to mind but try hard not to do the one you just completed." No more boredom! Next week add a fourth move to the three already practiced and their head is positively going to explode from all the possibilities. I wish someone taught me to think about dancing in this fashion when I was just starting!

The sad thing is, this problem of "one true pattern" only gets worse in more advanced classes, since advanced moves often rely on both partners coming out of a previous move with certain momentum, so it gets more and more difficult to mix it up because only a small subset of pieces fit. I can think of several follows in my scene who perform on teams and look really good, but I have a terrible time social dancing with them because they constantly anticipate the "one true pattern" and throw me off. This is, of course, not their fault--it's hard to be "blank" to whatever's lead if you've been repeating the exact same sequence five thousand times.

alvaro

11-06-2004, 09:11 AM

I don't think i could agree more with you!!.

I'm very curious about the jazz improvisation thing ... but i dont know enough about it to have clear my own questions. Would you elaborate on the way you think musical education should be carried to make improvisation easier/understandable/natural ... i don't know what i'm asking, i just feel that there is something there that i want to understand and learn!!

----------------

As for the improvisation thing ... let's use a metaphor: let's say that dancing is like having a conversation ... with the music, our partner, our feelings ... Then improvising would be a fluid conversation: you just talk and listen, and you are not aware of the process of talking and listening. You are just doing it. In it.

Now, that's only possible when you have mastered to some degree the language you are talking. If not, then you'll be reaching for the dictionary, or guessing the meaning of some words, or sometimes wont find the way to convey your meaning. You have to learn the language first!. We have to learn the dance language first.

And if you check, most language classes challenge students to build their own sentences and keep their own small conversations (improvisations) all the way from the very first day, they will encourage you to use the structures and phrases and words that they taught (by putting you in the right context). Learning has to be active ... and sometimes we mistake our learning of a dance as 'active' only because we are 'moving' in it!!!.