Competition vs. Social Dancing [Archive]

youngsta

09-01-2003, 03:46 PM

Yesterday I took a Cha Cha Cha workshop in which one of the participants was a competitive dancer. I noticed her reactions as she rotated through several of the guys. She was getting pretty frustrated to say the least. Anyway, when she finally rotated over to me she was extremely surprised at the way I danced and gave me compliments on my frame and lead. Then she asked, "Where did you learn to dance? Do you compete?" When I told her no she was surprised. She almost gave me the impression that she couldn't believe I only wanted to be a 'mere' social dancer. Does that seem to be the predominant attitude of competitive dancers out there?

pygmalion

09-01-2003, 03:54 PM

I don't know what the predominant attitude is. All I know is that, after taking a year of private lessons at a studio that does social dancing only (250+ lessons), I went to a coach that does competitive training, and had to practically start over.

Stuff like partnership, connection, balance, frame, good footwork, and a lot more things I could name weren't even on the radar scope of my social dance teachers. My competitive coach, though, requires excellence in all these things. He wouldn't even teach me smooth dancing at all until after I spent about six months doing footwork drills at home. Harsh, but true. My social dance teachers had allowed me to learn so many bad habits, that it took months to un-learn many. I'm still un-learning some.

youngsta

09-01-2003, 03:59 PM

That's why I could never compete. It just seems to technical...it would take the fun out of it for me. I'm hard enough on myself as it is! :lol:

pygmalion

09-01-2003, 04:28 PM

youngsta

09-01-2003, 04:33 PM

So why can't you do that as a social dancer? I know plenty with great technique, style, an skill.

pygmalion

09-01-2003, 04:55 PM

Maybe I need to change studios, because I don't know good social dancers who have those qualities.

I know competitive dancers, who are very, very good.
And I know social dancers, who have fun.
I haven't yet met anyone who could do both.

Either I need to change studios, or maybe, just break down and compete. It's not that I don't want to compete. It's that I don't care about winning. I have a beautiful frame, long arms, and some presence on the floor (which I could develop). I could compete. I'm just not individual competitor material. Team comps are a different story. I'm a great cheerleader for the team. Just not for myself.

Hmmm. Gotta think about this.

Jenn

d nice

09-01-2003, 05:22 PM

I'd suggest getting out of your studio and social dancing at some of the more popular clubs in Florida. Tampa has some very good swing dancers. Miami of course is all over the salsa scene. You'll find plenty of skilled social dancers in it for the fun.

I "retired" from comps in '99. Even during my competition years I considered myself a social dancer. I still practice on technique all the time. I insist it of my students competitive or social.

pygmalion

09-01-2003, 05:36 PM

I've been thinking about this a lot. As much as I trust my coach (and I do), it's my responsibility to make me happy. Which means figuring out where I can find what I need, dance-wise. And an hour or two drive is definitely not an issue.

Thanks for the input.

Jenn

d nice

09-01-2003, 05:43 PM

BTW: When I said "get out of yuour studio" I just meant to expand your social dancing, not to stop taking lessons.

I've noticed that a lot fo studio dancers only dance in the studio. I think it is of utmost important that dancers dance with as many people of different backgrounds as possible.

youngsta

09-01-2003, 05:53 PM

I hear you Jenn. I to have thought about competing, but it just seems so cutthroat to me. I LOVE to dance and wouldn't have a problem putting in the sweat and tears. A team competition probably would be the way to go. Until I get serious though, Jack-n-Jill comps only!

Vince A

09-01-2003, 06:12 PM

I would suggest to all of you who have never competed to give it a try . . . then you can make a comparison . . . sometimes it is cutthroat, but I'd lean more to the word "political." You have to play the game!

I've done teams too, so youngsta, give it a try! Jack and Jills are the most fun! Here you express your style!

I agree all the way with d nice - get out and do a lot of social dancing . . . floor time gives you experience! Experieince makes you better . . . most of the time!

I still compete, and have competed since 1993, but again like d nice . . . consider myself a social dancer . . .

Whenver I see a class on Technique - I'm there. Whenever I see a class on "the basics," I'm there! I work on styling by myself!

youngsta

09-01-2003, 06:17 PM

Thanks for the advice Vince. We'll see :wink:

Jack-n-Jill's are a LOT of fun. I love the randomness of it all.

Vince A

09-01-2003, 07:22 PM

Thanks for the advice Vince. We'll see :wink:

Jack-n-Jill's are a LOT of fun. I love the randomness of it all.

Oh, and youngsta . . . age has nothing to do with it. I recall your answer in the "How old are you?" thread . . . and I'm older. Compeition can make you a much better dancer! The private lessons involved can also get you there quicker . . .

MissAlyssa

09-01-2003, 07:39 PM

I'm with you. I don't want to compete. The problem is that social dancing just doesn't satisfy my need for excellence. I don't fit into either world. I want to have great technique, style, and skill, in a positive, supportive, non-competitive environment. That's not going to happen. I think it just doesn't exist.

You can always do showcases, you know, the theatrical part of dancing. You will have a routine but get to have fun with it while still showing it off.

MissAlyssa

09-01-2003, 07:41 PM

Oh yea, and to answer your question...I feel like some competitors feel this way, but only if their time in the spotlight gets to their head (and pumps it up a few sizes). I like to social dance and am looking forward to competing but I will never look down on someone who only social dances. No dance/form of dance is better than another. It's all preference.

Spitfire

09-01-2003, 08:19 PM

For me dancing is about fun and enjoyment and not sport or demonstration. This is not saying that I'm against competitive dancing in general; just not for me personally.

I was asked again last Friday at our dance by one of the instructors if I would do a showcase with her this next Saturday, but declined. I do appreciate that as a compliment though.

:)

pygmalion

09-02-2003, 12:40 AM

[You can always do showcases, you know, the theatrical part of dancing. You will have a routine but get to have fun with it while still showing it off.

Now showcases, I love. Nothing like getting out there in the spotlight and showing off. What I'm looking for now is a good formation team to join. I think that will get me closer to that adrenaline rush I need without pushing me into competition.

I think it's probably a good idea to try at least one competition, though, just to see what it really feels like. Don't want to eliminate it to the basis of my own prejudice.

Gator

09-02-2003, 02:02 AM

...Do you compete?" When I told her no she was surprised. She almost gave me the impression that she couldn't believe I only wanted to be a 'mere' social dancer. Does that seem to be the predominant attitude of competitive dancers out there?
I think it has something to do with hmm, persistance may be? What I observed, at least here in bay area is that, more advanced the dance class level is. less males are in there. If you check the beginners class guys to girls ratio is perhaps 2/1. In intermediate classes it's less than 1/1(guys/girls), in short the higher the level less guys are there. Donno, perhaps girls are more persistent ;) Based on that, it's not very surprising she asked that question. I might not be 100% right, as I don't take group classes, although I've tried, too much troubles unfortunatelly. Anyways, just my 0.02$.

pygmalion

09-02-2003, 09:07 AM

BTW: When I said "get out of your studio" I just meant to expand your social dancing, not to stop taking lessons.

I've noticed that a lot fo studio dancers only dance in the studio. I think it is of utmost important that dancers dance with as many people of different backgrounds as possible.

Oh yeah. I understood. I will be taking lessons for the rest of my life.

I also find your observation about dancing "in studio" to be totally on-point, although I don't think it's necessarily bad, at least at first. The studio I started with gave "soup to nuts" dance instruction -- private lessons, group classes, parties, social outings, showcases, internally administered exams. The works.

And I found it to be helpful at first, because I was terrified to dance. At least, if I stayed within the studio, I was among friends and could take a few risks.

After a while, the studio got to be detrimental, because everybody knew everybody, everybody danced the same patterns, everybody had the same "group think" as far as dancing was concerned. (As an afterthough, I'm modifying this post to say that not everyone has to switch studios to find a good dance experience. I do think that it's important to go out and practice dance in real-life situations as often as you can.)

That's when I changed to a small, independent studio. Now, if I want to practice dancing, I have to go out to the public ballroom dances or local nightclubs. And I'll tell you one thing, I am learning to follow. The guys I'm dancing with now don't know the same patterns I do, so I have to follow.

It's been quite a transition.

Phil Owl

09-02-2003, 09:39 AM

I personally have NO desire to compete at all, just too technical and takes the fun out of dancing for me in addition to the fact it's just so political and cutthroat to boot.

I've had both good and bad experiences dancing with people who are competitive dancers, most actually were very gracious and encouraging to me (and flat out fun in a few instances!), a couple of course had that big ego as well.

msc

09-02-2003, 12:34 PM

pygmalion

09-02-2003, 12:59 PM

pygmalion-
Unfortunately, to execute the more sophisticated moves, you need a serious dance partner, and you can usually only find those types of dancers if you are willing to compete. Socially, the leads usually are stiff and sometimes rough, and that's going to limit your abilities.

I fear you may be right. That's why I ended up switching studios in the first place. I couldn't mix my social and competitive-style training. I'd get to social dances and have guys wondering why I couldn't follow their (heavy) leads, then go to my new competition-style classes and have leads wondering why I was such an insensitive follow. The two don't mix easily, or at least I'm not good enough to mix them yet.

Vince A

09-02-2003, 01:16 PM

I certainly compete, and never ever, not once, have I looked down on those who just social dance, unless, of course, they are shorter than me!

Besides, if you compete, then you'll know what we're talking about when we say "we're having a heart attack" right in the middle of a Waltz! Hell, that what it feels like. Especially when you just start to compete . . . but it does get easier. You eventually learn to turn nervousness into energy!

youngsta

09-02-2003, 07:44 PM

Socially, the leads usually are stiff and sometimes rough, and that's going to limit your abilities.
I don't know if you're talking about a particular dance, but in my experience there are some amazing leads in the social salsa circles I travel in.

pygmalion

09-02-2003, 08:21 PM

Oh yes. msc is definitely right on this one. The folks I know who do social dance only, for the most part, have no idea of what true partnership looks or feels like. And it's not their fault. Studios that train social dancers try to simplify everything, to make dance more accessible. The problem is that they simplify real partnership right out of the equation. Real partnership is difficult to attain, and very subtle to teach.

From time to time, I'll dance with a social dancer who's really a good lead, but it's hit or miss.

One of the first concepts taught in competition training (at least for me) is connection, then partnership.

The probability of finding a good lead among competitive dancers is much higher, in my experience.

youngsta

09-02-2003, 08:49 PM

I think it has a lot to do with location. For salsa/mambo for instance, go to LA or NY (or a major Congress for that matter) and you will find many butter smooth leads. Many of which may have never stepped foot in a studio. As long as I've been in the scene connection and partnership have been the #1 and #2 things preached to me. I understand when you say something like The folks I know who do social dance only, for the most part, have no idea of what true partnership looks or feels like. you're expressing your experience, but from my personal experience I'd have to disagree.

pygmalion

09-02-2003, 09:04 PM

Yeah. I respect that. Sometimes, I really wish I lived in ones of the cutting-edge dancing hubs, like NY or LA.

d nice

09-02-2003, 09:34 PM

pygmalion-
Unfortunately, to execute the more sophisticated moves, you need a serious dance partner, and you can usually only find those types of dancers if you are willing to compete. Socially, the leads usually are stiff and sometimes rough, and that's going to limit your abilities.

What? I have no idea what you are talking about. What dance do you do? Isn't it the leader's job to lead his follow through moves? If she has good frame and footwork, shouldn't she be able to follow any well lead move? I know this how it is with most of the swing dances.

Vince A

09-02-2003, 09:51 PM

I agree with d nice here . . . good frame and footwork, and add no anticipating, I might add, and follower should be able to follow a correctly given lead . . . and even more so if the lead is properly given from the center!

msc

09-03-2003, 02:14 AM

Danish Guy

09-03-2003, 03:45 AM

My clear impression is that competition is a rehearsed thing.
Of course the guy have to lead, but the lady know what to do, before the lead comes.

In the social thing, the guys don’t know what level and what combinations the lady is capable to follow. The ladies don’t have a clue about what’s going to happen, but have to follow the lead.

In salsa clubs some people can dance like they have known each other for years, and actually they have just met. That’s one of the major things that got me hooked on salsa. 8) 8) 8)

youngsta

09-03-2003, 06:50 AM

That's exactly what I'm talking about Danish Guy! How much do you really have to lead in competition? They've practiced the routine for weeks. She could probably do the whole thing with no lead. In the social arena you live and die off your lead. You have to be able to adapt it to so many different follower's style.

I've dance with women I'd met for the first time and it seemed like we had been dancing forever together. A great follower + great lead = a spectacular dance.

Vince A

09-03-2003, 09:24 AM

I totally disagree . . . my lead in competition is exactly like my lead in social dancing. And, as far as my opinion goes . . . it should be the same! Why would it be any different? I dance with my wife on our dance floor, and I give her the exact lead as I give my Pro. I am consistent . . . you should be too!

Yes, my follower (the Pro) does know where she is going, but she does depend on my lead. This allows the routine to grow, to add styling, and to do those little things that are usually not done in social dance, i.e. 'play to the audience . . . wink at a judge!

We are humans, and we forget . . . yes in a routine my Pro has forgotten and my lead kept it going, and the reverse is true - I have forgotten and she saved my a**!

pygmalion

09-03-2003, 09:31 AM

Vince A

09-03-2003, 09:44 AM

Vince A.

Amen to that. I've done quite a few exhibitions where the only thing that saved us was my ability to follow. Now, when I'm learning exhibition choreography, I always memorize the intro, memorize the ending, and follow in between.

Things happen while you're performing. People forget. Another couple gets in the way. I sometimes chicken out and do two spins instead of three. The only thing that saves you at times like that is following.

Yes. Thanks for the reminder on "other couples in the way." This has only happened to me twice, and both times in the middle of a difficult Waltz move. If I had let my Pro run into someone, I would have been 'dinged' a point or two. If it had been a WCS . . . hey, instantly out of the way!

I have had to ad lib (lead and follow) many times in a routine that I knew like the back of my hand.

I believe that the intro is the most important . . . to catch the judges eyes, you need to come out of the starting gate strong as ever. The judges usually have only a few moments to evaluate all the dancers, and you might as well get as much of their time as you can!

DanceMentor

09-03-2003, 02:34 PM

Vince A

09-04-2003, 12:43 PM

I only competed a few times, both as an amateur and as a professional. While I enjoyed competing there were other things I liked doing more. Probably my favorite thing was perform. I had a job for over ten years performing weekly, plus many other gigs. I also enjoyed teaching. I used to teach some huge classes at night clubs. It was pure fun. People were there more for the fun than the competition. I think each person whould find what they really enjoy doing and do that.
I agree with what you said, however . . . I really like performing . . . whether it's standup comedy, being in the band, teaching, and especially dancing!

I like being in the "center." Not showing off . . . just proud of my accomplishments . . . therefore . . competition dance gives me this outlet!

It is one man's opinion . . . nothing text book . . . there is nothing like walking off the compeition floor just after completing a dance! It's such a high for me! I do not need to be "a champion" . . . d nice cured me of that need!

Just have a love for dancing! It is me! I never thought something could be more important or more fun than my Telecaster!

SDsalsaguy

09-07-2003, 10:48 PM

I know competitive dancers, who are very, very good.
And I know social dancers, who have fun.
I haven't yet met anyone who could do both.
Ohhh, Jenn...I am SO sorry that you got rained in yesterday!!! :cry: The after party at the USDSC last night was a great opportunity to see a lot of great competitively trained dancers just having fun on the floor...

SDsalsaguy

09-07-2003, 11:13 PM

It's not that simple folks.

Social lead and follow is a totally different animal than competitive lead and follow, if pygmalion is contemplating entry into the competitive Latin/Standard arena.

Actually, I'll defer to SDSalsa on this. I know he's seen both sides of that fence.
Ok, I'll try to field this one...just please keep in mind that I am only answering from personal experience and perspective and claim no technical authority…

To my way of thinking there’s both a yes and a no here. Lead and follow are at work in both situations so, by definition, there is overlap. At the same time, however, there are massive differences…if for no other reason that the nuances and responsiveness between competitive partners develop over years. As such, there are subtleties that cannot be matched in most social situations (an exception being, for instance, Vince’s social dancing with his wife which, like competitive partnering, has had years to develop).

The pre-rehearsed, be able to do the routine on your own, view of competition is a vast oversimplification. Floorcraft issues, as Jenn has already pointed out, demand on the fly lead and follow. Beyond this, however, are other variables…

:arrow: It is a very poor competitive dancer, for instance, who dances exactly the same way no matter the music playing. Such interpretation/performance demands the same lead and follow of good social dancing, even if the choreography is “set.”

:arrow: Much top notch competitive dancing is so incredible precisely because of its demonstration of what two bodies can achieve in unison...while such chorography can be marked by each individual, sometimes it cannot truly be “danced” independently.

:arrow: Also keep in mind that, as a generalization, many "social" dances rely on an "away" connection vs. the "towards" connection of more competitively based dances.

I know this is a minimalist response to a complicate issue (great thread by the way :D), but I am severely over-tired after just getting back from the USDSC…I’ll try to think this through a bit more over the next couple of days…

borikensalsero

09-16-2003, 11:32 AM

from my expirience the more people I dance with the farther away I get from asking a professional dancer to dance I get. I'm one of those who is at a club to enjoy the dance. I scope the scene and see which girls are out there who are strong solo dancers and their faces says I'm here to dance, make mistakes, laugh, and enjoy myself, rules are flexible, I'm not competing with anyone.

Something I've noticed the ballroom dancers I've danced with lack is that relaxed attitude needed for a social dancer where not everyone has the same training. You will get stuck with people who are far less skilled than you! Sure I can dance with ballroom dancers, but I choose not to because fun to me isn't getting a look because I lost her hand and decided to turn the move into a improv shine routine. Everything has to be perfect for some individuals, yet they don't hear that the trombon player just got off beat, that the conga player just went from the tucu ta. to tucutucutuc tu, that the lead singer skipped over a word in the song, that the Sax keeps coming in and out as the soundman is searching for the right volume. They seem to be so indulged into perfection that it takes away from us as a couple enjoying the dance to the maximun. She might be enjoying her perfection, but a sence of uptight-ness comes from her planting of the foot all the way up to my hand. I'm like damn, the competition section is in the next room. Am too laxed when I dance, too "if we mess up" do an imporv, no sharp brisk moves unless the song calls for it. Why do 5 spins when two styled-out moves would look way better. But seeking perfection in a social atmosphere will only lead to a dancer's frustration. As long as we are on beat, forget about perfection and let loose. Now, if we are putting on a show, and I'm messing up, I'll be the first one to get on my case.

In all, seeking the perfection that must be achieved in a ballroom dance in front of judges from Joe's Dancemania on Sundays is only a set up for frustration. So, while the 2 can't be compared, attutides from one plane to the other sure can be...

pygmalion

09-16-2003, 11:45 AM

Yeah. I know what you mean. I don't know if what you say is always true for ballroom dancers (I hope not!) but I have run into my fair share of people who don't know that dancing is supposed to be fun, and can be fun, even if you're dancing with a new person. Especially in social ballroom dancing, lose the attitude, and just have fun. Perfection is not required.

SDsalsaguy

09-16-2003, 12:34 PM

For the record, while this may be true of too many, not all ballroom dancers are like this! One of the best salsa followers I have *ever* danced with is a ballroom instructor in Boston. Or, for a more recent example, at the after party at this year's USDSC in Hollywood Beach a couple of weeks ago, I danced salsas with the World Am. Latin Champ, a U.S. Pro Rhythm finalist, and a U.S. Pro Latin Finalist – all of whom had no problem having fun and recognizing that they weren't on a competition floor.

I do, however, think it should also be pointed out that as much as lead & follow is still lead & follow, there are differences between social and competitive connections...the one club style salsera I danced with that night was much easier to, for lack of a better word, coordinate with on the floor, but that doesn't mean that the other women weren't leaving their competitive training behind.

Vince A

09-16-2003, 01:27 PM

I still disagree . . . the lead is the same and the connection is the same!

In competition, there are routines. If anything at all is is changed, we clean up the style from how we dance socially to what the judges are looking for. Believe it or not, there are classes on what the judges ARE looking for. I make sure I anchor instead of tap outs. I make sure I am straight and have a wide and big frame versus the funky frame I get into when I'm social dancing.

My job in competition is to lead the follower through the patterns (moves), which both of us know and have in muscle memory. The follower's job is to follow that lead with good frame and footwork (thanks d nice). We should, and have danced a WCS to Waltz music. It is memorized. I don't have to think what is coming next. We both know. However, we have screwed up the routine and had to lead and follow. Still the same? Yep. And still won my division. Why change? Why learn two different dance styles? Doesn't make sense!

My lead does not change. There is no added arm or hand centering, etc.
There is no less either. Dancing socialably should be the same. I do my job, the follower does hers. The ONLY difference is now I can dance my style, but the lead is the same this way as well.

So, pick on style, pick on the frame changes, but the lead and connection should be the same. If they are not . . . "what dance are you doing?" You definitely are not doing Swing!

pygmalion

09-16-2003, 01:51 PM

So does this mean that the difference between social and competitive dancing is different depending on the style of dance? Is swing the same social versus competitive, while salsa requires different styling, for example?

And what about "ballroom" styling versus "club" styling?

I'm hearing all of these things in this thread, so I'm wondering. Does anybody have thoughts on this?

Vince A

09-16-2003, 02:17 PM

My Swing is the same, with the exception of styling in UCWDC dancing, which is a litlle more strict! However, in World Swing DAnce Council competitions, I dance exactly the same as I do socially! Everything is the same!

Would you do a chasse' or chasse' turn any different on a competition floor versus on a social floor? I wouldn't. How about a ronde'? Would you do a Waltz any different in a social dance versus competition?

Yes, I agree the moves in competition may be a little more flamboyant, and heck, some just are not leadable moves. I have many of those moves. Most likely, I wouldn't try to socially lead those kind of moves. Hm m m m m m, maybe not. Like those challenges!

I cannot speak for the ballroom and club dancing!

SDsalsaguy

09-16-2003, 02:42 PM

I cannot speak for the ballroom and club dancing!
...and those were the only things I was speaking about...

Vince A

09-16-2003, 02:59 PM

I cannot speak for the ballroom and club dancing!
...and those were the only things I was speaking about...
And that's "why" I didn't!!! It's good to have many voices on this site!

Danish Guy

09-16-2003, 03:38 PM

I cannot speak for the ballroom and club dancing!
...and those were the only things I was speaking about...
And that's "why" I didn't!!! It's good to have many voices on this site!

Nice to have the spectrum covered. :D

Yes, I agree the moves in competition may be a little more flamboyant, and heck, some just are not leadable moves. I have many of those moves. Most likely, I wouldn't try to socially lead those kind of moves. Hm m m m m m, maybe not. Like those challenges!

I like to see that. :lol:

This is a major difference between competition/Showdace and the social/club dance.

Vince A

09-16-2003, 04:17 PM

Danish Guy,
Actually, the moves I use in social dance is more flamboyant and more showie than my competition. However, I won't do most of them with someone I haven't at least danced once with . . . just to feel them (not lieterally) out!

My competition WCS, for example, is very boring. Since I'm being judged, it's choreographed to show me off, not the Pro. It's pretty straight-up WCS stuff. No dips, no ragdolls, no slides, no tapping out, no gimmicks, no reverse of the lead, no hi-jacks, no fun stuff whatsoever! Dance to my partner, dance to the audience, dance to the judges! NOT EXACTLY WHAT I LIKE TO DO.

I like to dance with and to my partner!

But the lead and connection is the same! I rely on my Pro to do her part - to follow! That's what I pay her to do!

MissAlyssa

09-17-2003, 12:08 AM

I might do my first competition early next year! I'm trying to find a novice dance partner do dance with me in the Dual in the Sun comp. :D

SDsalsaguy

09-17-2003, 03:48 AM

Ummm, I'm confused now... :?

"Novice" is a specific category in amateur competition...but I'm fairly sure that's not what you're talking about given minor technicalities (such as you're an instructor)...

pygmalion

09-17-2003, 08:33 AM

I've been wondering about this. Could one of the competitive dancers in the forum please answer?

How do you determine which categories to compete in? If you're a pro, do you have to compete as a pro? How are pro and amateur defined?

I know that each comp has its own guidelines, but are there general rules?

Vince A

09-17-2003, 09:29 AM

In "some" venues . . . if you teach and you get paid to teach (make a living), you are considered a Pro!

However, enter where you feel you should enter, and let them tell you where you belong! But you need to inform them of the situation!

pygmalion

09-17-2003, 09:37 AM

That seems awfully unfair to new teachers. They're considered pros, but probably have a lot less dance experience than many of the amateurs on the floor.

Vince A

09-17-2003, 09:44 AM

I'm pretty sure things can be worked out, but think of it the other way.

She teaches WCS for example, and unknown to her, one of her students also signs up as a Novice in competition at the same event. She walks out on the floor to be introduced, and so to does this female student. How do you think that young student will feel seeing her - the teacher in the same competition? They are already defeated and they haven't even danced yet! It is very much a mind game to many, until they learn that it is - just a dance - not life or death!

pygmalion

09-17-2003, 09:46 AM

I see what you mean, Vince. I guess there's no way to be completely fair to both. Hmm.

Vince A

09-17-2003, 10:36 AM

Unless she can find a venue that does not "see" this regulation . . . then it would be up to her values!!!!

SDsalsaguy

09-17-2003, 02:04 PM

For ballroom purposes a pro is anyone paid to teach partner dancing. Yes, they may have less experience, but they are also the one who – at least in the big picture – is getting paid to learn how to dance and getting paid to practice. There are exceptions for the top amateurs (both by USABDA and NDCA guidelines – although these differences are significant), but those have to do with trying to parallel the European situation where (except for in the U.K.) amateurs can teach.

SDsalsaguy

09-17-2003, 02:35 PM

Oops, I forgot the other part of the question. I've always tried to compete at the level I think I'm at plus at the next level higher up. So, for instance, at our first comp together Janelle and I (that's us in my avatar) competed in Bronze and Pre-Novice events (the step above newcomer), but also entered Silver and Novice events.

Do keep in mind, however, that different styles have different "depth charts." On average the International style events are more demanding, at a given level, then are the American style events.