Help me, I'm off beat!

[brujo]

Hi everyone,

After reading salsa-rhythm's excellent intro to the clave, I still can't seem to stay on beat when social dancing.

I always thought I could hear the beat, but lately I've been questioning this, as some people I dance with insist that I keep getting off beat. I find that I don't have this problem when I am dancing NY2, where I seem sync my off-beat ass with the 'PA' of the tumbao.

But on 1, it's a different story. Evil, miserable on 1 beat, why hast thou forsaken me! Here is the advice that I have been given:

1. Get rid of all the other crap on the CD player and hold on to a strict regime of salsa.

2. Remember that the intention in the center comes before the count. I.E. when your mouth counts 1, your foot should have already executed the 1 and be in the process of transfering the weight to the 2.

3. Count out loud. Somehow this has a different effect than counting silently.

Anyone have any other tricks, secrets or ideas to help stay on beat? How can I tell that I am off beat and get back to it? Are those counting CDs worth the investment?

thanks

[salsaForfun]

Here are things I use now for my on2 learning:

a. Get some mid tempo songs and try alone to get The 1 and 5 and the 2 and 6 and clap on them during the entire song. Then try to dance on these song: using the 1 & 5 when dancing on 1 or 2 and 6 when dancing power 2 oder palladium. When dancing Eddie Torres Night Club Style you need the 1 to start and 2 and 6 for break steps and you need to notice the foot positions.

But as I notice for myself do not much rely on counting that might confuse you: Start counting at the begining of the song and then rely on feeling the instruments you recognized for your counting. And from time to time count again to check whether you are still on beat (feet/steps) and you are feeling the music (counting/tempo) well. My orientation now are the two side of the clave (pa pa) when I hear the clave and for instance the piano to get the begining of music sequence, I mean the 1.
The Bass and the Guiro or cowbell might also be of help.

b) double check what you learned alone with a friend or instructor.

c) dance with ladies you know that they hold the the beat and maybe accent it good. Since you know that they are on the beat, you have to adjust your steps and movements to theirs. Next step would be you leading them.

It seems you don't feel the music the way your dance partners do. And doing as I suggest would be a possiblility to find out where the problem lies.

Keep also in mind that there are a lot people who feel the music and dance on beat but cannot explain it to you





Hi everyone,

After reading salsa-rhythm's excellent intro to the clave, I still can't seem to stay on beat when social dancing.

I always thought I could hear the beat, but lately I've been questioning this, as some people I dance with insist that I keep getting off beat. I find that I don't have this problem when I am dancing NY2, where I seem sync my off-beat ass with the 'PA' of the tumbao.

But on 1, it's a different story. Evil, miserable on 1 beat, why hast thou forsaken me! Here is the advice that I have been given:

1. Get rid of all the other crap on the CD player and hold on to a strict regime of salsa.

2. Remember that the intention in the center comes before the count. I.E. when your mouth counts 1, your foot should have already executed the 1 and be in the process of transfering the weight to the 2.

3. Count out loud. Somehow this has a different effect than counting silently.

Anyone have any other tricks, secrets or ideas to help stay on beat? How can I tell that I am off beat and get back to it? Are those counting CDs worth the investment?

thanks

[borikensalsero]

Being on-beat isn't an over night success. It takes practice and more practice. No matter how many timing tapes/salsa songs you listen to dacing is the way to be on time. Keep your dancing simple... as you get better incorporate more complecated moves to your dancing. If you have a good partner that is willing to help you into dancing on beat then practice with her as much as you can and to as many different songs as you can. learning one song and dancing to it isn't going to teach you the beat for you know what to expect and when. Learn the beat from tapes, other people, then practice, practice, that as much as you can. Ask around how the different people find the beat. Don't worry if you are on the 1 or the 5 you are out dancing socially. You don't need more stress than you already have. Whether you step with your right or left on 1 or 5 doesn't make a lick of difference for you are dancing on beat and more over you aren't on stage performing. When in the car and listening to music count out loud if you must. I don't believe in counting but it is benefitial for a great number of people so count. Count out loud, always count if you must. Hopefully one day it will become second nature to when you'll start to feel the music without the count. I must stress that I am completely against counting but if you must by all means us what best suits you.

[salsarhythms]

Well, I must say I am biased towards instuction in Timing
and the reason is because it has helped so many people
that I know, including myself...

Now, I agree with everything everyone has said until now,
eventually it has to come second nature...in the meantime
though, you need to get those pathways in your brain trained
to listen for and stay on the beat.

One thing about the beat to remember is that there are a lot
of other instruments and cue's other than just the clave.

Personally I listen more for the Conga and the Piano more
so than the clave...I do that because the end result is simply
to find the beat...how you find it really doesn't matter.

Many people can listen to the first 2 seconds (maybe even
less) and they can find the beat...eventually it will be second
nature, but in the meantime some practical training is good.

Not too many people know this but you can pick up Volume
1 of my course for free, now Volume 1 deals with the conga
not the clave, however, the conga is a very good instrument
to start with because it is very easy to pick out in almost
any song...

To get the first volume, just go to my web site and click on
the "Get your first volume free" link, I think the conga will
help you out a lot...

[pygmalion]

When I can't hear the right beat, I change the music! :lol: :lol: Just kidding.

I count out loud, focusing only on the beat I want to hear. Meaning, I silently count the other beats, but count the beat I want to hear out loud. Like this.

one- TWO- three-four if I'm breaking on two.

ONE-two-three-four if I'm breaking on one.

But as salsarhythms points out, it gets to be seconc nature after a while. Until then, you're right. Count.

[funseeker321]

borikensalsero


in this thread you say that you are against counting to stay on beat...why is this?

[Vince A]

A little long winded, but . . . read this:

. . . from "Victor" . . . (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/hear_the_beat.html)

[Alias]

When in the car and listening to music count out loud if you must. I don't believe in counting but it is benefitial for a great number of people so count. Count out loud, always count if you must. Hopefully one day it will become second nature to when you'll start to feel the music without the count. I must stress that I am completely against counting but if you must by all means us what best suits you.

I don't believe in counting but it is benefitial for a great number of people so count.
I must stress that I am completely against counting but if you must by all means us what best suits you.

Hurrah for borikensalsero, I'm not the only one who is against the usual overuse of counting.
I'm in favour of counting in the situation of explaining or rationally understanding what's going on and when (in the dance and in the music).
I'm for instance against counting while dancing, that is I don't think that counting the music and then dancing on those counts is a good thing, for instance this leads to disregard what's actually happenning in the music and to dance like robots upon counts, in fact following counts is not following the music.

Here's my post (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=161709#161709) from the "Musicality in AT (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9251)" Argentine Tango topic:
There's a game one can do once as an exercise, counting an AT piece of music (while listening, not while dancing), don't count with numbers but simply with your fingers from 1 to 8 (and iterate), you'll discover that of course there is an underlying structure based on multiples of 8 beats.

That said, one should never count in AT but rather listen feel and follow the music, in fact you can take the amount of time you want to perform each step (depending on what happens in the music), you're dancing to what happens in the music and not upon some counting based on a regular beat.

Happily in AT there is not this obsession of counting and this obsession of the beat that you alas find in some other dances (because of the way there are teached).

Here's my post (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=161430#161430) from the "Off-the-beat leader (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2860&highlight=count)" salsa topic:
I have a friend who often complains about other salser@s being "off beat". Usually when I have danced with those salseros, if I simply follow we both have a good dance. Last night, I tried to find the beat myself with one and I think it hurt the dance.
Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"?
Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music?

Interesting remark and good questions (the way it is formulated, I think you already have an idea about the answers).

Is there one beat or other acceptable "beats"?

In salsa music there seem to be many acceptable "beats" to start with or to break on, then you can keep the ability to anchor on any given point (for example as a leader I've followed on 1 (LA) and on 2 (P2) and on 2 (ET2) classes and adopted in each case the corresponding step and timing following the start count of the teacher, and concerning followers it would be in social dancing to fit the leader's choice, that could be seen as a part of the following job to understand the leader's understanding of the music (in the case he has one!)), or you can get more used to one particular choice and find the others odd (then have the feeling of your partner not being on the "right" beat).

I also think that there are rather different kinds of salsa music and the situation is not the same for each (for example for some kind of salsa music I find myself able to start or break more or less on many points then having to make an arbitrary choice, but for some kind of salsa music (for example best suited to mambo (CBL slotted salsa)) I obviously get only one way (timing) to fit the moves in the music), and it can even depend on the piece of salsa music that would more or less or not favor one way, then focus on following the music rather than count and arbitrarily always break on a given beat.

Is there a difference between being on the beat and riding the music?

Very good question, short answer because I've got to leave, I wanted to say: focus on following the music (global structure and local elements) with feeling rather than focus on beats and counts ...

[Alias]

Anyone have any other tricks, secrets or ideas to help stay on beat?

Staying on beat (so you already know how to start on beat and on a specific beat) ...
This may be a matter of getting or keeping the right tempo (do you know this game: you're dancing on a music and then the DJ cuts off the sound and you go on dancing without music but trying to keep the same tempo, then the DJ puts the sound on again on the same piece of music and the test is to find yourself on the music).
This may be that you better feel fitting the music with the "break on 2" and even more specifically with ET2, so when you have to dance "on 1" (because of the follower I guess) you tend to go back to ET2 then going from one beat to another.

How can I tell that I am off beat and get back to it?

As you know how to start on beat and on a specific beat, why not virtually start again to find if you're off beat, and actually start again (for instance after a move where you've let go the follower as in solo spins or shines) to get back to the beat.

These are hypothesis as I don't claim to be an expert in this field.