Salsa and "dance frame"

[MacMoto]

A quote from the Watch the man's chest? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=95593#95593) thread:

Would this technique work for salsa as well?


LOL looks like all the beginner salsa dancers (and the 'street types') took this class and then left.

This is a beginning teaching method. I can assure you that in the next 2 or 3 weeks the teacher will tell the class where the lead comes from - the same place it comes from in salsa - the frame moving in space.
This has got me wondering...

Dance frame is something that's talked about a lot on DF. If you search for the keyword "frame", you get 387 hits, not including this thread (okay perhaps not all of them are about dance frame, but the number is certainly a good indication). Yet it's a term I only came across on DF. None of the salsa teachers I have taken lessons from (including congress/weekender workshops) ever mentioned it. They talk instead about "having the right arm tension" and "the body following the arm". I suppose together these points probably describe something similar to the concept of "dance frame", but it's simply not explained as such.

Does this mirror your experience? I wonder if there is any regional difference... I understand that salsa is often taught in a studio setting in the US, which is not common in the UK.

Also, does the concept of "dance frame" actually apply to salsa? There have been threads about correct arm tension for salsa, and my understanding has been that it's more flexible (meaning dynamic/constantly changing, not floppy) than in ballroom or swing dancing -- am I right?

[squirrel]

Dance frame... I think it does exist in Salsa as well, but it is different from the one used in Ballroom dancing / AT... I don't know about Swing and the like, as I have not seen many people do it... it's not danced here (not to my knowledge at least)...

And yes, IMHO (and the way I've been taught), the arms should be more flexible in Salsa than in Ballroom... and give the leader the correct arm tension to work with!

My 2 cents...

[Sabor]

i dont percieve of any official or formal frame for salsa.. its loose and open to what u make of it and the different ways u can move against your partner.. its a free dance and so subject to great variety.. thank heavens!

[squirrel]

But doesn't it have some basic rules? Like follow the lead (so the leader should know what the correct lead of a pattern is and the follower should know it too...) and dance to the beat (whatever beat) using a particular basic step... etc...?
Otherwise, why bother go to classes? It's free, but you have to master the basics to be able to get free... I mean, if there were no rules whatsoever, then my father (who doesn't know any dance) could Salsa... he could just push somebody around to the beat and call it Salsa dancing... :? No? :?

[Sabor]

i didn't say there are ''no rules" squirrel.. i said ''no official or formal" ..as in u can't generalize it and say.. 'that is the proper way".. cause there's a bunch of proper ways as far as i'm concerned.. and i will shift between them accordingly.. depending on the variables of the dance..

when it comes to teaching.. then i guess evryone has their favorite comfortable method to teach as basic.. and maybe they can branch from there as things advance.. but i'm not an instructor, so i dont deal with that part of it.. so what i do goes primarily for me.. and as i experienced .. their are many varities to a frame that i will use depending.. since it works.. :D

[squirrel]

Yeah, I can relate to that completely!

Actually there are too many people around who think there's only one way of doing things "properly"! When there are so many... ;)

And yes, as an instructor, I do have some "favourites"... but I very rarely correct my students when their style differs from mine... I only correct them by thelling "... this is the way I am doing it... this is how it is easy for me to do it... you either follow me or find your own way of doing it!"...

... :? :?

[tj]

Yeah, I can relate to that completely!

Actually there are too many people around who think there's only one way of doing things "properly"! When there are so many... ;)


I've been having that particular conversation a lot lately. And it's so true... and it applies to many things. I've heard/been taught about 3-4 different spin techniques, for example.



Back to MM's topic: My very first salsa instructor had a background in ballroom, WCS, and tango, and he mentioned frame every now and then. But I think he was the only one.

So if it's being talked about, I don't think it's all that common in salsa.



Oh and I can totally relate about the arm tension thing. It's one of the first things that I'll gauge regarding how we'll be able to connect or not.

[alvaro]

sorry for the question, but: what exactly is the ballroom 'dance frame'?

[borikensalsero]

as I understand it, the frame is the "box" that is created when a lead and a follow hold each other in closed position... You can also speak about frame in terms of individual dancers, as in how well a person stands and creates half the frame to hold another person.

Here in NY City the more experienced instructors will talk about frame, will talk about not breaking it for ease of movement, etc. A good frame makes lead and follow easier as the physical connection created is rather receptive to minimal movement.

Of course it doesn't matter what kind of frame you create, however, the term used to discribe that closed position of dancers holding each other, especially refering the the upper body, is known as the frame. Well, at least that is what I've believed all this time. Now, don't shoot me if I'm wrong. :tongue:

[Sagitta]

sorry for the question, but: what exactly is the ballroom 'dance frame'? Are we talking about social dancing or competition. Slightly different for both. It also changes a bit among some of the dances.

And I have always heard about frame in the lessons that I have attended in reference to salsa.

[azzey]

as I understand it, the frame is the "box" that is created when a lead and a follow hold each other in closed position... You can also speak about frame in terms of individual dancers, as in how well a person stands and creates half the frame to hold another person.

Here in NY City the more experienced instructors will talk about frame, will talk about not breaking it for ease of movement, etc. A good frame makes lead and follow easier as the physical connection created is rather receptive to minimal movement.


An example of breaking the good frame/connection two partners have would be if the girl stepped back on the break step and shifted her whole body over that foot instead of keeping the body where it is and putting some weight onto the foot. This would require either that:

a) the lead follow her and try to correct again when she shifts her weight forward. This will look ugly as the follow will likely push the core of the leaders frame (his body) when she returns to the forward position. He could compensate again, but then she would be leading his core around.

b) He keeps himself stable and opens his frame by extending his arms and allowing a gap to form between your bodies. Think of holding a small beach ball and then smoothly expanding your arms to hold a bigger ball.

Ideally you would want to maintain the same distance between yourself and your partner however when dancing with beginners thats not always possible and is perhaps better if the leader maintain his balance so that he can support the follower and lead her smoothly into the next move.

[azzey]

Dance frame is something that's talked about a lot on DF. If you search for the keyword "frame", you get 387 hits, not including this thread (okay perhaps not all of them are about dance frame, but the number is certainly a good indication). Yet it's a term I only came across on DF. None of the salsa teachers I have taken lessons from (including congress/weekender workshops) ever mentioned it. They talk instead about "having the right arm tension" and "the body following the arm". I suppose together these points probably describe something similar to the concept of "dance frame", but it's simply not explained as such.


Most advanced topics are not taught in regular classes. Examples are connection (only taught at a basic level), dance frame, musicality (e.g. No mention of clave changes or clave license even by good cuban instructors) etc.

There are probably three (or more) reasons for this:

1) the instructor does not feel qualified to teach these subjects because they don't know enough to explain them thoroughly.
2) they know how to explain it but don't because it should be left to a specialist workshop/private.
3) they could explain it in a class but students of low mixed ability in classes have enough problems copying jargon but not knowing what it actually means, so perhaps its better to teach by example. i.e. show how a move should look and correct the student on arm/body/foot position (therefore changing their frame) without mention of jargon.
[/quote]


Also, does the concept of "dance frame" actually apply to salsa? There have been threads about correct arm tension for salsa, and my understanding has been that it's more flexible (meaning dynamic/constantly changing, not floppy) than in ballroom or swing dancing -- am I right?

Yes, frame applies to sitting well, walking well, running well, dancing well. basically anything you do with your body. You are right that tension should be flexible and controlled, but I don't like using the T word because to most people it implies stress and stiffness. Rather bungey for pulling and a tight spring for pushing. Frame (a snapshot of your whole body position from your toes to your fingers and top of your head) should be fluid and changing as well. Its how smoothly you do that and still retain connection good that makes you a joy to dance with.

[azzey]

2) they know how to explain it but don't because it should be left to a specialist workshop/private.


What I meant here is that teaching and explaining good body movement and how to apply it to a specific dance style is time consuming and would do more harm than good to gloss over it in 2 minutes in a turn pattern class.

[dTas]

well said azzey.

i think that the image that most people draw in their head when you say "frame" is standard closed frame. but there's a frame for everything that you do. its your body position, balance, body atitude... "the whole picture". you can have a good frame when opening a can of beans or a bad one which would make it more difficult to either hold the can or turn the can opener or whatever.

in salsa i would talk more about "conneciton" with your partner as opposed to talking about "frame" since the term frame draws up images of ridgidness where just talking about connection with your partner allows for more individual interpretation as long as the signal to your partner is clear and consistant.

[SDsalsaguy]

As far as I'm concerned, any kind of partnered dance has to have frame. There will be variations across genres as well as by preference, but certain elements of it are key to communication between partners. Certainly if anyone suggests that there's only one way do something—frame included—you should turn and run as fast as you can, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still wrong ways to do things! I think of it similar to academic argumentation or a mathematical proof... there are different ways to do things any of which can work and some of which might make more sense in a given scenario... but that doesn't rule out that there are also wrong ways! The ways that are right are right not because they're right but because they work, and its the same for frame... all partner dancing has something that works but, because of different aesthetics and interactional dynamics, what works (or at least what works best) varies between dances and styles. But, at the same time, any style of dancing with a partner has dancing with a partner in common... so there are functional requirements that mandate some form of frame.

Anyway, random musings aside, to MM's initial question I can only add that the more lessons I've taken in any other form of partnered dancing the more I'm convinced that most salsa instruction sucks at really teaching lead and follow, so there's little wonder that frame isn't mentioned that much (obviously there are exceptions).

[clave]

Dance frame is something that's talked about a lot on DF. If you search for the keyword "frame", you get 387 hits, not including this thread (okay perhaps not all of them are about dance frame, but the number is certainly a good indication). Yet it's a term I only came across on DF. None of the salsa teachers I have taken lessons from (including congress/weekender workshops) ever mentioned it. They talk instead about "having the right arm tension" and "the body following the arm". I suppose together these points probably describe something similar to the concept of "dance frame", but it's simply not explained as such.
There certainly is a proper frame for salsa dancing, just like any other type of dance. The studio I started at introduced the concept after about six months of instruction and dedicated an entire four-week session to travelling on the dance floor, i.e. proper frame for leads and follows.

In my mind the word "frame" doesn't evoke the waltz-like broomstick-up-one's-a** closed position in particular. I tend to think of it as the right amount of feedback from follow to lead in general. In salsa open position that would be the right amount of down pressure on lead's palms, and enough arm rigidity that when I twist my shoulders the follow's shoulders follow naturally. In salsa closed position it would be enough leaning back into my right hand that when I break forward instead of back with the right foot she steps back with her left naturally. Follows who feel limp in either position can't be lead through most advanced moves, so I'll often ask a follow in class to "give me more frame."

Also, frame has nothing to do with body weight, mind you. I often dance with a rather tiny girl who recently switched entirely to salsa after many years of ballroom competition. The first few seconds of dancing with her always feels like pushing a brick around the dance floor, takes some getting used to. In that sense the average salsa frame is a lot looser than the ballroom kind. Don't know about swing.

[borikensalsero]

Anyway, random musings aside, to MM's initial question I can only add that the more lessons I've taken in any other form of partnered dancing the more I'm convinced that most salsa instruction sucks at really teaching lead and follow, so there's little wonder that frame isn't mentioned that much (obviously there are exceptions).

I didn't want to make it that blunt, but I agree 100% with the statement. Lots of salsa instructors can dance, but ask for a breakdown of what's going on... :doh: I got cool moves for you though! lol

Yet a place like NY City has them 2 for a dollar... I place such high regard on the title instructor, but I've yet to meet many who've earned it.

[borikensalsero]

I often dance with a rather tiny girl who recently switched entirely to salsa after many years of ballroom competition. The first few seconds of dancing with her always feels like pushing a brick around the dance floor, takes some getting used to. In that sense the average salsa frame is a lot looser than the ballroom kind. Don't know about swing.

Didn't make you feel sexy clave? :mrgreen:

[alvaro]

as I understand it, the frame is the "box" that is created (...) A good frame makes lead and follow easier as the physical connection created is rather receptive to minimal movement. (...)
thanks, i like that for a definition! ... (very practical)
but in some of the posts here it seems as if 'frame' was more of concept than a precise and broken down technique:
frame applies to sitting well, walking well, running well, dancing well. basically anything you do with your body...
there's a frame for everything that you do. its your body position, balance, body atitude... "the whole picture". you can have a good frame when opening a can of beans ...
and i'm not saying that it is wrong ... just that never talking about 'frame' in class will not necessarily mean that the class is lacking something: you could instead talk about posture and distance and perception of minimal movement and all that little things. Not talking directly about complex things is -sometimes- very good teaching .... but i have to agree with SDsalsaguy: most teachers i've met don't teach good leading and following at all, so probably most teachers that don't talk about frame are also not trying to teach it indirectly.

[bjp22tango]

Having danced ballroom, latin, swing, and Salsa I would say thay all have "frame" or "connection" related to the way in which the partners are moving. Standard or Modern dancers require the couple to cover large areas of dance floor while turning around each other. The stiffer frame is necessary to ensure that the "large" movements are conveyed quickly and accurately from lead to follow so they don't trip or block each other.

Latin and Rhythm dances have a more relaxed frame but I think would still be considered stiff to most street dancers. Movement is conveyed more from the ribcage down in these dances and the arms tend to be still and tense (relatively speaking) in order to transfer the foot and leg compression into the floor from lead to follow.

The Swings (Lindy Hop, EC, WC, etc.) have a more relaxed but no less critical connection that allows for fast transitions and quick stop and go movements, again covering more space than the typical salsa.

In my opinion, Salsa has a much more relaxed "neutral" hold (the connection in between leads) where the leaders can dance their hands and arms through all sorts of patterns. There is more of a full body interaction, all parts of the body being used to express the feel of the music.

It requires the follow to be much more relaxed, but able to apply tone in the arms when leads happen, then be able to instantly relax them again. Many swing and ballroom dancers find this arm expression distracting at first, and it takes a bit to convert to the different frame.

Which is why when dancing with ballroom or swing follows even a light girl will feel like she weighs a ton of bricks. At first she is reacting to EVERY movement of the arms as if it were a possible lead. After a bit she is able to distinguish the neutral, or styling, moves from the actual lead and her follow should improve and her heaviness dissapate.

The reverse is also true. A social salsa dancer dancing in other styles can feel as if they have rubber arms at first. And they would probably find "latin" dancing stilted.

[Flat Shoes]

Look, spaghetti arms. This is my dance space. This is your dance space. I don't go into yours, you don't go into mine. You gotta hold the frame.


Proper tension (I like to say relaxed tension) is part of the frame. But there's more to the frame than just the tension between the partners. There's the connection between the partners arms, but there's also the connection between the arms and the bodies, and the way the arms and bodies are used for doing the movements. All of this together makes up the frame.

A good frame is:
:arrow: Relaxed tension
:arrow: Smooth tension, do not jerk your arms around but increase/decrease pressure smoothly.
:arrow: Lead from the body, follow with the body. The body is moved by the arms. The body initiates and supports the arm movements. This is closely related to smooth tension. It's harder to jerk your body around, than just your arms.
:arrow: Keep a good connection between your body and your own arms. Don't collapse, don't overstretch, don't let your arms come behind your shoulder/body. If you do this, you loose power in your arms, and you can't lead/follow any more. (And you might hurt yourself.)

At least, this is how a proper frame is in Lindy Hop, and I guess it's the same for all dances. I don't do ballroom, but I can imagine them being much stiffer than the average Lindy Hop'er, still I would guess that even with a much stiffer frame they still try to be relaxed (shoulders down), smooth, leading from body and in control of their arms.

[Salsaonone]

Sorry if this is a repeat, but here is my two cents on frame:
(ballroom style)
Man's right arm/hand should be placed under the woman's left arm near the shoulderblade of the follower with fingers closed(including thumb) and facing left.

Man's left arm: bent at the elbow (down) forming half of a 'W" so \/..palm facing up and fingers and thumb gently closing on the woman's hand (fingers together, besides thumb)

Woman's right arm forms the other half of the "W" \/ (opposite of man's left) plam of hand facing out with fingers and thumb softly closing on the man's hand with fingers together. The two hands should meet in the middle of the space bewteen the two partners and not too far in or out.

Woman's left arm rests gently on the man's right arm and hand rests gently on the man's upper arm.

There should be enough tension in the arms so that the follower can react to the lead.

Some say the idea that there is a billion dollar bill inbetween the two hands and you cant allow it to slip off or smush at any time.

Hands/arms in general:

when raised: loose, little tone,
when at hip level : tone
when below hip level: loose, little tone.

when arms are not raised or lowered, the arms are an extension of the body, so when it is lead to move to the left or right, or any direction, the whole body goes...a follower should never allow her arm to be fully extended or have the elbow pushed behind her side. Also, leader and follower should not squeeze the you know what out of their partners hand with their fingers or thumbs!! :)

Once in dance position, the frame doesnt really move, its the lower body that does most of the movement (perhaps a side to side movement but its level (no up and down)). The body would move side to side or back and forth, but not the arms.

Typically the man looks slighly to the left of the follower's face and the same for the follower.

[borikensalsero]

Some say the idea that there is a billion dollar bill inbetween the two hands and you cant allow it to slip off or smush at any time.

WEPA!!! Where do I get to go to hold one of those in my hands, cause after that, all there be from my frame is dust. :) But I can be easily found traveling the world from beach to beach, salsa club to salsa club... plus anyone is welcome to come aboard.

I knew there was a reason people were so hardcore about ballroom. That sneaky billion dollar bill!

[Salsaonone]

I knew there was a reason people were so hardcore about ballroom. That sneaky billion dollar bill!

Exaclty...why do you think there are so many ballroom dance studios opening up?? :)