Confused about styles

[amrimi]

About ten years ago I did a little ballroom dancing myself. Therefore I found some of the ballroom topics quite interesting too. But I'm getting a little confused about all the terms used here. Could somebody please enlight me. When I was doing it I only knew latin and standard. But here there is a lot of talk about standard, smooth, latin and rythm and also what is the difference between american and international style?

Thanks for your help.

[Kitty]

standard and latin are International styles.

smooth and rhythm are American styles.

International styles are popular around the world while american styles - mostly in America. I don't think there are competitions in American style ballroom in Europe.

In Europe they don't call standard and latin "International styles" because for Europeans these are the only ballrooom styles, so there is no need to name them.

[amrimi]

standard and latin are International styles.

smooth and rhythm are American styles.

International styles are popular around the world while american styles - mostly in America. I don't think there are competitions in American style ballroom in Europe.

In Europe they don't call standard and latin "International styles" because for Europeans these are the only ballrooom styles, so there is no need to name them.

So which dances belong to smooth and rhythm

[Kitty]

smooth (only 4): waltz, tango, foxtrot, vienneze waltz

rhythm: cha-cha, rumba, swing, bolero, mambo

[amrimi]

smooth (only 4): waltz, tango, foxtrot, vienneze waltz

rhythm: cha-cha, rumba, swing, bolero, mambo

So smooth seems to be the same as standard only that there are less dances. Rhythm are different dances than latin besides two. Right or are there even more differences.

[twnkltoz]

In Smooth, you're allowed to open up away from your partner...there are under arm turns, free turns, side bye side work, etc. The technique is the same as Standard.

In Rhythm, the main difference is the choreography (the syllabus patterns are different) and the music is faster. The technique tends to use a little more bend in the knee.

[delamusica]

In Smooth, you're allowed to open up away from your partner...there are under arm turns, free turns, side bye side work, etc. The technique is the same as Standard.

In Rhythm, the main difference is the choreography (the syllabus patterns are different) and the music is faster. The technique tends to use a little more bend in the knee.

Except in American cha cha and swing, which are much slower than International cha cha and jive.

[Kitty]

smooth is like standard showdance.

rhythm is same as latin except the dances are different. (all basic ideas the same, just music and steps are different). american style rumba is much faster and has a different character. American and international cha-cha are identical in music and character.

[Katarzyna]

In Smooth, you're allowed to open up away from your partner...there are under arm turns, free turns, side bye side work, etc. The technique is the same as Standard.

Smooth is a combination of Standard, Latin technique and Theatre arts

[delamusica]

[quote=twnkltoz]In Smooth, you're allowed to open up away from your partner...there are under arm turns, free turns, side bye side work, etc. The technique is the same as Standard.

In Rhythm, the main difference is the choreography (the syllabus patterns are different) and the music is faster. The technique tends to use a little more bend in the knee.

And the use of the bent knee has been very important in rhythm, although I hear it's kind of going out of style. It's very rare, however, to step onto a bent knee in latin (except for samba, sort of . . .)

[Chris Stratton]

And the use of the bent knee has been very important in rhythm, although I hear it's kind of going out of style. It's very rare, however, to step onto a bent knee in latin (except for samba, sort of . . .)

What about jive?

The most workable explanation I've found is that this is actually the same knee-straightening action as swing, only less pronounced to fit a faster tempo.

Is there some other way of doing it?

[twnkltoz]

Sorry, when I said the music was faster, I was thinking about Rumba!

[Purr]

And the use of the bent knee has been very important in rhythm, although I hear it's kind of going out of style.

It is? :shock:

[Porfirio Landeros]

And the use of the bent knee has been very important in rhythm, although I hear it's kind of going out of style.

It is? :shock:

Latin-trained dancers are dropping into Rhythm, so they're doing Cha Cha, Rumba, and Swing just as they were doing them in Latin, only adapting to the tempo instead of adapting to the technique. Roll in the fact that most of the Judges are trained in International, you can see how the Rhythm technique of the Bent Leg is being slowly phased out (along with the retirement of Bob and Julia, who really did bend those knees).

[twnkltoz]

The knee bend used to be much more pronounced...ie, in Rumba, you'd step on the inside ball of your foot with the heel well off the floor, then roll onto the foot. The knees would drape across each other to create an effect of more motion. That has gone out and we're stepping right to the foot, no rolling of the foot and no draping of the knees. Bob and Julia teach to step with almost a flat foot...your toe drags on the floor as always, but by the time you put it down it's almost all at once. This makes you faster. There's more motion coming from the ribcage and body, which creates a different look than the old knee-draping technique.

At least, this is what I get from my coaches! Granted, their background is also in latin.

[delamusica]

And the use of the bent knee has been very important in rhythm, although I hear it's kind of going out of style. It's very rare, however, to step onto a bent knee in latin (except for samba, sort of . . .)

What about jive?

The most workable explanation I've found is that this is actually the same knee-straightening action as swing, only less pronounced to fit a faster tempo.

Is there some other way of doing it?

No, of course not! I was just popping in between classes and didn't think of it, as I was in a rush. In jive you're REALLY stepping onto a bent leg - do you think it's more pronounced in swing than in jive? I would have said it was the other way around . . . maybe . . . never thought about it before, come to think of it - and I don't know how they teach swing in american ballroom - all I know is jive and club swing. Hmm . . . now I've gotten myself (and probably anyone who's reading this!) all confused . . .

[dTas]

another difference is the target dancer between the two styles...

International tends toward competative dancing where American style tends towards social dancing.

not to say that there aren't social International dancers and competative American dancers... its just the approach of the lessons and technique that i'm addressing.

International tends to concentrate on fewer patterns done VERY WELL!

American tends to concentrate on less technique and LOTS OF PATTERNS!

but when you get into the higher ranks of style it all balances out. though i like American style smooth better. you can do everything that you do in international plus all the open work. :D

[ShyDancer]

Just on the Bent Vs Straight knee ....

In International Latin, in Cha Cha and Rumba you should always step onto a straight leg, the hip action comes from snapping your leg straight so fast, rather than from the roll of the knee and foot like in Mambo, Salsa etc...
With your weight forward and the quick snap back of your knee it creates nice, sharp hip actions in Cha and it also allows for some extra body movenmet in Rumba to accentuate the whole appearance of the dance.

(guess who's been working on snapping her knees?)

[mamboqueen]

swing vs. jive

more "swing" in swing; more of a "bounce" in jive. You need to use your hips a little more in swing to fill up the time; in jive, you're lucky to get onto the next foot before falling behind the music!

[Chris Stratton]

Tthe reason I jumped in is that I always found it very hard to do jive fast enough, because I would push off the standing leg and not do much with the moving leg. The problem with this is that it's almost impossible not to launch yourself too far, and have to wait to settle down again before you can take the middle step of the chasse - which means your basic is big, and slow.

Using a "swing" action of straightening the arriving leg seems to make things a lot faster, as you only pull yourself as far as you have to go to get onto the new leg. I'm not sure exactly how the action compares to rhythm swing, etc - my interest in latin tends to be more along the lines of "oh, that's how it works" than an inclination to drill things until they are really precise...

[Larinda McRaven]

another difference is the target dancer between the two styles...
International tends toward competative dancing where American style tends towards social dancing.
not to say that there aren't social International dancers and competative American dancers... its just the approach of the lessons and technique that i'm addressing.
International tends to concentrate on fewer patterns done VERY WELL!
American tends to concentrate on less technique and LOTS OF PATTERNS!
but when you get into the higher ranks of style it all balances out. though i like American style smooth better. you can do everything that you do in international plus all the open work. :D


This is absolutely one of my pet peeve myths.
The difference is in the teachers attitude, not the name of the style.
If a teacher is telling you there is a difference or is teaching you differently between the two styles...it is time to find a new teacher.

[Larinda McRaven]

Case in Point.

I got a new student. A young extremely talented guy. I taught him for the first 5 months or so. I taught him everything as perfectly as I could, and he soaked it all up. We were doing American style Smooth and Rhythm and headed for competition.

Unfortunatley his job was moved and he followed it. He found a new teacher. Later I saw him at a competition doing pro-am. He was awful. Everything I had taught him was gone. He came up to me later and said hi. We talked awhile and he said "My new teacher said you were teaching me international style so she took me back to American style." And yet the very patterns I saw him doing with the new teacher were almost exactly the same patterns I had taught. Only his body legs and feet were a mess. I was STUNNED and very sorry for this guy to be taken on such a detour.

He moved yet again and is up in Boston, Mamboqueen you might recognize him... I see him occasionally with his am partner now and with yet a different teacher, learning championship latin, and doing quite well.

I am so terribly sorry for the direction his second teacher took him. Her assumptions of the differences beween American and International broke my heart.

[pygmalion]

So what's a student to do? He trusted his teacher and got led badly astray. How can a lowly schmuck (not that I know any lowly schmucks personally, mind you :wink: ) tell the difference between a good teacher with good teaching technique and a bad teacher who talks a good game?

[dTas]

another difference is the target dancer between the two styles...
International tends toward competative dancing where American style tends towards social dancing.
not to say that there aren't social International dancers and competative American dancers... its just the approach of the lessons and technique that i'm addressing.
International tends to concentrate on fewer patterns done VERY WELL!
American tends to concentrate on less technique and LOTS OF PATTERNS!
but when you get into the higher ranks of style it all balances out. though i like American style smooth better. you can do everything that you do in international plus all the open work. :D


This is absolutely one of my pet peeve myths.
The difference is in the teachers attitude, not the name of the style.
If a teacher is telling you there is a difference or is teaching you differently between the two styles...it is time to find a new teacher.

i don't see how what i said relates to what you're talking about. i'd like to but i don't.

i understand about getting different teachers and one teacher messing up another teachers work. each teach has their own style of communicating and points that they work on. but that doesn't address the differences in approach between international and american styles of dance.

what's your pet peeve again?

[Larinda McRaven]

its just the approach of the lessons and technique that i'm addressing.

International tends to concentrate on fewer patterns done VERY WELL!

American tends to concentrate on less technique and LOTS OF PATTERNS!



American style does not concentrate on less technique, teachers do.

I taught the student a solid foundation, regardless of style. The new teacher told him to throw out technique becasue he did not need it in American style. This is wrong.

[Warren J. Dew]

So smooth seems to be the same as standard only that there are less dances. Rhythm are different dances than latin besides two. Right or are there even more differences.

The optimal tempo for Smooth Viennese waltz is also slower than for Standard - perhaps 52 mpm versus 60 mpm.

Traditionally, Smooth tango is more continuous than Standard tango - with a more serpentine action and a pulsed rhythm rather than the pizzicato that seems to be popular in Standard. There's a lot of interpretive variation in both cases, though.

The popular choreography also differs. For example, in American style, the gentleman does most of the heel turns, rather than the lady. At more advanced levels, there are fewer foot closures in American style.

[Warren J. Dew]

Smooth is a combination of Standard, Latin technique and Theatre arts
I think that's more a description of what it looks like to some people rather than what it is.

The lower body, leg, and foot technique in Smooth is essentially Standard technique, with minor variations accounting for varying distance from one's partner. Smooth has no more commonality with Latin than does Standard there - maybe less, as the often separated dance position makes hip usage less critical in Smooth than in Standard.

The use of the arms and upper body in Smooth has a lot more in common with ballet than with Latin, in my opinion.

And lifts, the focus of Theatre Arts competition, are traditionally forbidden in Smooth. In fact, even leaps, which are allowed in Standard, were traditionally forbidden in Smooth, though that rule seems to have fallen by the wayside.

[Chris Stratton]

The use of the arms and upper body in Smooth has a lot more in common with ballet than with Latin, in my opinion.


Some of the seperated bodies/joined hand(s) positions popular today do seem to use very latin-like ideas of connection. I think this is likely distinct from ballet partnering dynamics, but can't claim any experience there.

[Chris Stratton]

At more advanced levels, there are fewer foot closures in American style.

There aren't that many in a lot of open standard waltz routines, either!

[Katarzyna]

The lower body, leg, and foot technique in Smooth is essentially Standard technique, with minor variations accounting for varying distance from one's partner. Smooth has no more commonality with Latin than does Standard there - maybe less, as the often separated dance position makes hip usage less critical in Smooth than in Standard.

The use of the arms and upper body in Smooth has a lot more in common with ballet than with Latin, in my opinion.

And lifts, the focus of Theatre Arts competition, are traditionally forbidden in Smooth. In fact, even leaps, which are allowed in Standard, were traditionally forbidden in Smooth, though that rule seems to have fallen by the wayside.

I do agree with you on most points. And I think that upper body styling takes a lot from ballet.

To clarify my position, latin technique with regards to connection (Lead and follow technique), not with regards to the hip action.
Perhaps not Thearte Arts, but Performing Arts.

[dTas]

its just the approach of the lessons and technique that i'm addressing.

International tends to concentrate on fewer patterns done VERY WELL!

American tends to concentrate on less technique and LOTS OF PATTERNS!



American style does not concentrate on less technique, teachers do.

I taught the student a solid foundation, regardless of style. The new teacher told him to throw out technique becasue he did not need it in American style. This is wrong.

around here i'm known for my concentration on technique in American style. i don't worry as much about patterns and focus on proper balance, shape, poise, connection, frame, etc etc.

but from my experience in working in 5 different dance studios the American style approach is to work on figures and social dancing and not so much on technique and competition dancing. that is why i teach in my studio at home and do not work in a dance studio anymore.

its my pet peeve as well.

and on the other side of the coin its also my pet peeve that International style works so much on being "perfect" that they loose some freedom of movement and expression that American style provides.

[Chris Stratton]

So what's a student to do? He trusted his teacher and got led badly astray. How can a lowly schmuck (not that I know any lowly schmucks personally, mind you :wink: ) tell the difference between a good teacher with good teaching technique and a bad teacher who talks a good game?

Do whatever it takes to arrange an occasional lesson with someone unquestionably good, and then find a regular teacher who teaches something compatible with what the expert wanted you to do.

(Looking forward to my bi-annual checkup on Sunday...)

[Katarzyna]

Some of the seperated bodies/joined hand(s) positions popular today do seem to use very latin-like ideas of connection. I think this is likely distinct from ballet partnering dynamics, but can't claim any experience there.

Didn't see you already responded to this...

[Chris Stratton]

and on the other side of the coin its also my pet peeve that International style works so much on being "perfect" that they loose some freedom of movement and expression that American style provides.

I really think this is mostly a matter of preference that only incidentally correlates with styles because American style was in large part driven by market-oriented social/pro-am studios, while international style comes from a country - England - famous for masterfully clean technique.

But I really have to ask, for those concerned about expression, what messsage are they trying to express?

In the common situation with a complicated routine created by a teacher, and student(s) who aren't as aware as they might ideally be of the problems they are having with it, the message often comes across as "look at me! I'm a trained poodle!"

I think if you want to really express _yourself_ the thing to do is to work to gain enough technical competence that you have the freedom to do something a little special on your own. Often this isn't really obvious, but subtle. For example, if I'm struggling through an overly challenging class routine, I don't feel expressive. But when I gain enough security that I can shape the timing of the quicks in a weave, that's meaningfull expression, and I feel like I'm dancing.

There's also the time test... put on a video from a few years back, and decide if you looked expressive, or just clueless...

[Chris Stratton]

Some of the seperated bodies/joined hand(s) positions popular today do seem to use very latin-like ideas of connection. I think this is likely distinct from ballet partnering dynamics, but can't claim any experience there.

Didn't see you already responded to this...

Well we *did* last study smooth with some of the same people ;-)

[Katarzyna]

:wink:

[Warren J. Dew]

To clarify my position, latin technique with regards to connection (Lead and follow technique)
I'd agree with that ... just hadn't realized there were still coaches who taught lead & follow in Latin. Certainly there's little or no visual follow in Standard, while it's important in both Smooth and Latin.

[Chris Stratton]

I'd agree with that ... just hadn't realized there were still coaches who taught lead & follow in Latin.

You mean like the other face of the MIT ballroom team? Okay, maybe the lead and follow doesn't get as much attention as it should, and is allowed to slip in favor of a fixed routine at some point, but it wasn't completely neglected during the oddly-timed window when I was taking team latin classes and privates. We always competed that way, for better or worse (usually the later, but most likely for other reasons)

[Joe]

At more advanced levels, there are fewer foot closures in American style.

There aren't that many in a lot of open standard waltz routines, either!
But there should be! :)

[Katarzyna]

I'd agree with that ... just hadn't realized there were still coaches who taught lead & follow in Latin. Certainly there's little or no visual follow in Standard, while it's important in both Smooth and Latin.

That would be Jennifer for me. Connection is probably #1 thing she focuses on... that and the perfect footwork in Latin and Standard....

[Redtango]

I'd agree with that ... just hadn't realized there were still coaches who taught lead & follow in Latin.

You mean like the other face of the MIT ballroom team?


Are you saying that The famed Boston area doesn't have much lead and follow going on in latin? Or did I not read correctly

I think I will have to add my pet peeve to Larinda's:
"advanced dancers" who can't lead/follow who may look cool on the comp floor but can't survive on the social one. There is nothing more fun than really being expressive on the social floor ^_^

[Chris Stratton]

Are you saying that The famed Boston area doesn't have much lead and follow going on in latin? Or did I not read correctly

I was saying that I think there are people teaching it there, though it may not survive to competition beyond the introductory level.