what is with my left arm?

[Kitty]

Can I ask standard dancers to comment on my left arm and shoulder and frame in general?

I'm worried about my frame and my left arm. Couple of friends told me that my left shoulder sometimes looks weird and almost out of socket and out of straight line, and that my left arm (elbow) is too high. What do you think

[Joe]

Your left shoulder looks fine to me. If anything, it's your right that's wonky.

[Kitty]

what is wrong with my right arm?

[Chris Stratton]

I really hesistate to say much without being able to see you try adjustements.

It looks to me though like perhaps your shoulders are inclined a tiny bit - like a degree or two - to the left as a result of how you generate your leftwards shape. This means that your arms and shoulders are just a little out of balance - your right shoulder looks high and your left shoulder looks low, which then makes your left arm look high.

I think that the leftwards stretch actually has to have two components - one to move you to the left in the hold, and another on top of that, almost in the opposite direction, to level your shoulders.

At the same time, your left shoulder has to be able to fill into his hand, so simply picking it up won't work either, though I do think he might place his hand slightly higher on your back. And we can't really see how the balance of his upper arms looks at this particular instant (so a picture of him at another time won't necessarily help)

My two main point would be this:

1) This is so much better than anyone else competing at your level, that while it could be improved it's really important not to get caught up in that.

2) Working on it will need to be done by experiment. Ideally with a teacher who understands your concern watching, though you make make some progess with a mirror, possible even just on your own trying to get leftwards shape with level shoulders. (Level of course relative to any overall sway)

[Kitty]

I think that the leftwards stretch actually has to have two components - one to move you to the left in the hold, and another on top of that, almost in the opposite direction, to level your shoulders.
makes a lot of sense. I was told to try to keep shoulders more level and I've been trying to do that a little more. The top three pictures are more recent compared to the bottom one and I think I see improvement.

1) This is so much better than anyone else competing at your level, that while it could be improved it's really important not to get caught up in that.

Maybe the ones who make the finals have it much better... :evil:

Jennifer said that there were a lot of strange results and that other judge's marks disagreed with Stanley's drastically which concerned her.Can't wait for them to post they post the marks. Either I'm overestimating my ability, or the judging was random:going for familiar New England faces instead of good feet, or there was a scruteneering mistake.

[Chris Stratton]

I do not believe any of the finalist couples were better in this area. Or in many other things that you do well - I think this is a perfect example of a competition where the only effective follow up is to ignore the results and study the video, and I'd say that across almost every event that I really watched in detail. This isn't necessarily the fault of the judges, as there are many different areas of concern and opinions of what should take priority can differ, but it in terms of trying to figure out what to work on, second guessing the causes of these results is not really helpful.

I do think it would be good to get your partner a more trim look than the loose white shirt. The problem is that if he adds a black vest, then you pretty much have to go for a more colorful gown. Though having some color in there would help. Costumes will be restricted at MAC, so you won't be dancing against all the old team gowns, and more in the same boat as everyone else in terms of trying to aquire a legal outfit in a nice color.

[Another Elizabeth]

I think the perceived arm problem actually is coming from your partner's left hand. It is too bent forward at the wrist, causing you to have to break the line in your right wrist and move your right elbow out to compensate. His left hand should incline out more, so that his left thumb is parallel to his forearm and his palm is mostly parallel to the plane of your bodies. Similarly, your right thumb should be parallel to your right forearm, with your palm parallel to the body plane. This should allow you to relax your right elbow and shoulder more.

On your left side, I would bring your hand towards you so that the palm is facing out, with the thumb along the inside of his arm, and the third and fourth fingers curled loosely over the top of his arm. Think of the feel that you want to be able to use the hand to push him away, not bring him in closer (but don't actually push unless he starts crunching you).

[Kitty]

thank you very much, will check it out with his wrist: it caught my attention too that his wrist is twisted...

I was afraid that there will be too much space, a large gap, between my left elbow and his right arm and elbow if I brought my hand closer in. Do you know what can be done about that? Or is this the correct way to dance for us?

[madmaximus]

Can I ask standard dancers to comment on my left arm and shoulder and frame in general?

[EDIT: Photo archived.]

Hi Kitty.
Here are some of my observations. It is hard to comment on pictures alone because some things are lost in the translation from three-dimension to two-dimension.
Picture 1
--Left elbow is high.
--Right elbow is held too low. Although it seems that it might have been lowered because of the forward movement by the man(?)
--Man's hip seems more open than the lady's

Picture 2
--Right elbow is low (but better than pic 1!)

Picture 3
--I detect a slight twist between your hip and shoulder. Your right shoulder seems to be more forward.
--Here, the right elbow is low.
--Your right thumb should be level to your eyes.

The height difference *could* be a factor in this. So's arm length. Perhaps playing with the placement of your left hand (lower maybe?) would work. As some have noted, you might want to experiment to see what looks good. The help of an experienced coach would of course be invaluable.

(The image above is stored courtesy of a friend. You're welcome to download it, but I could only keep it there for a week.)

maximus

[pygmalion]

Thanks for posting the pix, kitty. It takes guts to post your photo on the web and ask for a critique. You rock. 8)

[Chris Stratton]

This is getting interesting. I would caution Kitty that some of the comments are going to conflict, and it would be best to go with whatever fix is offered by the in-person coach, though I know such time is limited.

Maximus makes two interesting comments I'd like expand upon:

In the first picture, I agree the man's hip is more open. Given the heel lead I'm thinking natural turn, and I'm thinking insufficient CBM - I'd like to see the hip really rotated by the time the foot is placed. (But don't hit the guy over the head with this comment, okay? It's the kind of thing to work on with a teacher... if you get on his case about this, I'll have to tell him to remind you that you are neglecting to release your toe)

In the third picture, I agree there is a rotation between your hips and shoulders, but I'm not sure this is a problem. If they were in promenade rather than closed there would have to be a large rotation there and we would not call that a misalignment. I think her top is following his in this picture, so my real question would be if both partner's hips are in the right place.

[Kitty]

Wow! Thank you very much! Do I have control over where my right elbow is? Or is this dictated completely by my partner?

this guy is supposedly my perfect height match. does he look to you too tall for me or too short? probably means I'm not bending my knees enough or bending them too much...

[Kitty]

In the first picture, I agree the man's hip is more open. Given the heel lead I'm thinking natural turn, and I'm thinking insufficient CBM - I'd like to see the hip really rotated by the time the foot is placed. (But don't hit the guy over the head with this comment, okay? It's the kind of thing to work on with a teacher... if you get on his case about this, I'll have to tell him to remind you that you are neglecting to release your toe)
Don't worry, I'm not going to say the swear word (CBM) to my partner: he is obsessed with it already and don't want to add to this obsession...
...working on the toe...

[Chris Stratton]

Wow! Thank you very much! Do I have control over where my right elbow is? Or is this dictated completely by my partner?

I think your right elbow should be completely passive - it is set by the position in which your partner places your right hand, in combination with the way in which you hold your upper back. The position of the hands doesn't look far out of bounds to me, though I'm sure a coach could find something to adjust in person.

With regard to the height, different differences are going to create a different look. If the man is much taller, your arms will appear to curve up from your shoulders. If he is not much taller, the forearms may slope down a little. What is important is balance to the look, to avoid uneveness, especially any sharp breaks between shoulders and arms. Though in general it's even more important that the man be balanced there, as both the role assigned to him and the sharpness of his eventual costume draw more attention to the geometric precision of his shoulders, while the desire is to see you as softer. That's not phrased well, but what I mean is that he has to be precise, while you have to avoid any sharp breaks in shape that would draw the eye.

[Another Elizabeth]

It looks to me like you are a good match for heights, but not a great match for leg length (which is more important, in my opinion). Your legs look significantly longer to me, unless your partner wears his belt really low. However, the mismatch is definitely not great enough to be worth trying to break up an otherwise good partnership.

Good luck!

[Kitty]

It looks to me like you are a good match for heights, but not a great match for leg length (which is more important, in my opinion). Your legs look significantly longer to me, unless your partner wears his belt really low. However, the mismatch is definitely not great enough to be worth trying to break up an otherwise good partnership.

I felt that before and still feel the difference in the leg length, especially when I have to walk forwards... taught me to really bend my knees... but the partnership is great... I can't wish much better... I'm a lucky girl!

[Warren J. Dew]

I don't think the left shoulder is too high. In fact, I think the left elbow is in the right place, and only looks too high because the left shoulder is too low. If anything, the right shoulder is a bit high, accentuating the angle in the right elbow.

The shoulder tilt to the left relative to where it should be is particularly visible in the first picture because your partner's left shoulder is dropped too. I think there's a ten or fifteen degree difference in your shoulder lines - in that picture, yours seem perfectly parallel to the floor, while his left shoulder is about four inches lower than his right shoulder. It would be better if they were both halfway in between these two angles.

I would like to see a straighter line from elbow to elbow, rather than the mild zigzag Maximus points out, but I think the right way of getting there is to avoid leaning left when you take shape. The left lean tilts your shoulders but not your arms, resulting in the zigzag.

I agree with Elizabeth's comments on the left hand. It's okay for your left elbow to extend well beyond the gentleman's left elbow.

I think the height match is great. I think the leg length match is also fine, based on the side view in your third picture; it appears that your partner's pants are not the high waisted type that dance tailsuits have. The reason his hips are well below yours in the second picture appears to be that he's lowering too much. Of course, since you're the follower, if he's lowering too much, you should be lowering too much with him....

I agree that your partner's left palm is turned in too much, and that that's part of the cause for the angle in the right elbow. However, I think there is something you can do about it too - relax the right arm, so it's like spaghetti, with no bones in it. This will remove the temptation for your partner to push against it for control.

[SDsalsaguy]

(The image above is stored courtesy of a friend. You're welcome to download it, but I could only keep it there for a week.)
Just wanted to point out that the DF has a photo album and that it would be fine to upload these.

[madmaximus]

(The image above is stored courtesy of a friend. You're welcome to download it, but I could only keep it there for a week.)
Just wanted to point out that the DF has a photo album and that it would be fine to upload these.
Thanks for pointing that out Jonathan. I'll see if I can upload the pix. (Let me know if that's okay with you Kitty).

maximus

[Chris Stratton]

Just thought I'd mention that I'm watching a pre-champ video from a large college comp, and about half the couples have this same shoulder slope problem, including many of the finalists.

[Joe]

That's why they're prechamp finalists in a college comp.

I don't think the left shoulder is too high. In fact, I think the left elbow is in the right place, and only looks too high because the left shoulder is too low. If anything, the right shoulder is a bit high, accentuating the angle in the right elbow.
That was my point from earlier.

It looks a little like she's trying to get (maintain?) her leftward poise by just bending her body to the left, which causes the right shoulder to come up. Instead, she should be thinking of extending the left side of her ribcage leftward and up (but mostly left), which should discourage the right shoulder from coming up.

[Chris Stratton]

That's why they're prechamp finalists in a college comp.

Then I guess we know what Kitty and her partner should enter next time around ;-)

[Kitty]

I don't think the left shoulder is too high. In fact, I think the left elbow is in the right place, and only looks too high because the left shoulder is too low. If anything, the right shoulder is a bit high, accentuating the angle in the right elbow.
That was my point from earlier.

It looks a little like she's trying to get (maintain?) her leftward poise by just bending her body to the left, which causes the right shoulder to come up. Instead, she should be thinking of extending the left side of her ribcage leftward and up (but mostly left), which should discourage the right shoulder from coming up.

I had a problem with my left shoulder coming up, so I'm constantly trying to push it down.
I think that is what it is.

The problem is I've never been told what was correct but it has been pointed out to me that my left elbow was too low. I practiced holding it higher, but tried to hold it at a weird wrong angle (even though it was painful) which resulted in a shoulder injury (couldn't raise my arm for a month! (literally, my shoulder would get out of socket when I tried to raise my arm, and hurt. I was not able to lift a book with my left arm) had to do physical therapy and abstain from practicing for 2 weeks, and it is still bothering me).
After injury my shoulder muscles were not capable of holding my arm up and instead other muscles would engage and my shoulder was not relaxed and raised. So I became obsessed with keeping my left shoulder from raising... probably overdoing it now... also using the wrong muscles...

This is a long sad story about my shoulders, that is why I'm concerned about it in the first place...

The problem is, my teacher always says that my poise is fine and then spends all the time during lessons on my partner's floorcraft...
And before this teacher the person who taught me was insisting on me maintaining the leftward poise at all times (naturally I stand very vertical as a stick and that bothered him) without ever explaining how.

I'm trying to figure out the correct way of doing it. Thank you everyone for your help.

[Kitty]

That's why they're prechamp finalists in a college comp.

Then I guess we know what Kitty and her partner should enter next time around ;-)

we'll do bronze routines...

[Chris Stratton]

That's why they're prechamp finalists in a college comp.

Then I guess we know what Kitty and her partner should enter next time around ;-)

we'll do bronze routines...

There's still a risk of placing.

[Elizabeth]

It sounds like your coaches aren't addressing your issues. I'd be particularly concerned if you coach told you to do the thing that ended up injuring your shoulder.

Is your current coach male? I would guess so if most of the lesson time is spent on floorcraft. There are many great male coaches out there, but in general I've found that female coaches do a much better job at explaing the shape a lady should take. You might want to take a lesson or three with a top female coach and focus just on that.

[Kitty]

I think the height match is great. I think the leg length match is also fine, based on the side view in your third picture; it appears that your partner's pants are not the high waisted type that dance tailsuits have. The reason his hips are well below yours in the second picture appears to be that he's lowering too much. Of course, since you're the follower, if he's lowering too much, you should be lowering too much with him....

Such a great height match... taught me to bend my knees and lower. When partners were too tall for me I felt I couldn't afford bending my knees... his legs are a bit shorter than optimal, but thats ok I lower to compensate. I'm usually more lowered than him: when we are dancing out height difference looks greater than it actually is.

there is such a thing as too much lowering? How much is too much? His lowering is very distinct, exactly on 3&, I learned a lot from dancing with him...

[Kitty]

That's why they're prechamp finalists in a college comp.

Then I guess we know what Kitty and her partner should enter next time around ;-)

we'll do bronze routines...

There's still a risk of placing.

so we won't do it. I don't want to place out of syllabus yet...
not before I place out of silver...

[Chris Stratton]

Knowing the couple and the (female) coach and the limited time they have with her, I'd have to say I think that she is concentrating on the issues that are most inhibiting to their placements right now. The problem is that this leaves room for an inquisitive student to pick up some unmoderated advice from sources with poor judgement, hence the arm injury. I do think Kitty could get some usefull information if she specifically asked about this issue at the next lesson (print out the picture and bring it in?) and could make some progress _carefully_ experimenting in front of a mirror on her own.

[Kitty]

It sounds like your coaches aren't addressing your issues. I'd be particularly concerned if you coach told you to do the thing that ended up injuring your shoulder.

Is your current coach male? I would guess so if most of the lesson time is spent on floorcraft. There are many great male coaches out there, but in general I've found that female coaches do a much better job at explaing the shape a lady should take. You might want to take a lesson or three with a top female coach and focus just on that.

he wasn't a coach, he was boyfriend...

my current coach is female, her name is Jennifer McCalla,
but 1) floorcraft is one of her priorities and 2) my partners leading and floorcraft are exceptionally are very weak points compared with his awesome movement and posture and so on...

[Kitty]

could make some progress _carefully_ experimenting in front of a mirror on her own.

I've done so so much of that.

[Another Elizabeth]

Such a great height match... taught me to bend my knees and lower. When partners were too tall for me I felt I couldn't afford bending my knees... his legs are a bit shorter than optimal, but thats ok I lower to compensate. I'm usually more lowered than him: when we are dancing out height difference looks greater than it actually is.

there is such a thing as too much lowering? How much is too much? His lowering is very distinct, exactly on 3&, I learned a lot from dancing with him...
I find that when dancing with very tall partners, I sometimes need to lower a little more, not less, to keep up with the movement. But more than lowering, you need to be using your feet as much as possible for movement in this situation. One of my coaches, who reached the semifinals at Blackpool with a partner who was definitely "too tall" for her, has such amazing foot action that few men could keep up with her movement, despite the fact that she's about 5'3" (I think).

For a follower, I would say that there is too much lowering if your legs remain bent at their widest separation, or if your feet are not reaching full extension on each step. That is, you should be getting as much of your movement as possible from foot extension, and then making up the difference by lowering the minimum amount necessary to get your feet as far across the floor as they need to go.

To get the feel of full foot extension, try tying your knees together so they can't separate, and then "stepping" as large as you possibly can. You will need to really articulate your ankles and press through your toes in order to make headway, and your feet will probably get tired fast if you haven't been using them a lot.

Especially given what you say about a history of shoulder injuries, I would stick with staying vertical, rather than trying to add a significant amount of poise at this stage in your development. If you really must work on it, consider scheduling a pro-am lesson with Jennifer, so you can just focus on you. That said, you should really be trying to use back muscles, rather than arm and shoulder muscles, to hold up your arms. (They all participate, but the lats are what you should really "feel" doing the work). An exercise I use for this is to put your arms in dance position, and then have someone put his hands under your elbows. Completely relax the arms, shoulders, and back, putting the full weight of your arms into your partner's hands. Then concentrate on engaging just the lats in your back (the muscles that run diagonally from just under your shoulder blades down to your spine), while leaving the arms relaxed. Your partner should then be able to gently withdraw his hands (probably allowing the elbows to drop a half-inch or so), and you will feel what a "relaxed top" should feel like.

[Kitty]

I find that when dancing with very tall partners, I sometimes need to lower a little more, not less, to keep up with the movement. But more than lowering, you need to be using your feet as much as possible for movement in this situation. One of my coaches, who reached the semifinals at Blackpool with a partner who was definitely "too tall" for her, has such amazing foot action that few men could keep up with her movement, despite the fact that she's about 5'3" (I think).

yes, I agree, that is what happens when you already know how to lower and why. But if you are short and are in a process of learning it, It feels very wrong to lower properly when dancing with much taller guys. So it is hard to learn to lower.
Cool that such short girls make it... how tall was her partner?
btw I'm 5'2" (I think)

because my partner lowers too much, as has been noticed, I don't have straight legs at any point of my walks. He does though. Maybe it is just that I need to lower more becuase of the leg length difference.

[madmaximus]

Compromise. Much of the frame, poise, hold, and movement in competitive Ballroom Standard is the result of compromise between partners. Very rare would we find that exact perfect match of hip-height, leg-length, stride, and arm-length (to name a few of the variables). Competing is about technical skill and expression. But being a competitor is about good partnering skills--compromise. :)

Individually, we could have very similar if not exact movement. However, as part of a couple, this must adjust. The mechanics of movement between a couple with a great height difference (for instance) would be different from a couple with optimum height ratios. The test of skill for the former is how to surmount the height(or whatever variable) difference and present attractive movement while staying within the *rules*. The challenge is to find that optimal point of individual movement, where it would match the movement of the partner at hand.

...because my partner lowers too much, as has been noticed, I don't have straight legs at any point of my walks. He does though. Maybe it is just that I need to lower more becuase of the leg length difference.

(A pitfall to avoid: the *head bob*. This is where one's head lowers more (visibly) than the other's. I did the *head bob* better than most.:) So, been there, done that, bought the tee-shirt, and company stock):wink:


maximus

[Another Elizabeth]

Since you're interested - probably the best couple with a big height difference was Michael and Vicky Barr, the world champions in the 80's. The only photo I could find was from one of their videos:
http://www.danceuniverse.co.kr/prodimg/video/large/stv9.jpg

[Chris Stratton]

Where is his right foot?

It looks like he's practically on point - there's a little blip that looks like the right toe. Or is it hiding somewhere behind her dress?

[Another Elizabeth]

I think that both his right toe and right heel are visible (the little "blip" is the toe), and the left heel is obscured by the cuff of his pants, making it look like he has an extreme arch in his left foot. It's actually somewhat turned out and being drawn in to cross in front, I think.

[Chris Stratton]

I think we can see his left heel. If those shoes have split soles, the stiffness of the patent leather can enable some rather alarming positions, even with less than championship foot strength. If we can't see his left heel, that means the foot is even more pointed. Granted this is the unweighted foot, but he has to be spectacularly high in the other to be able to do this.

Which is not what I would have expected to see from someone dancing a rising cross around a much shorter partner.

[Another Elizabeth]

In general, having seen tapes of Michael and Vicky's dancing, I would say that "spectacularly high" is not a bad description of his feet, especially in quickstep. I do think, though, that his right heel is what is visible, and that the angle of his right foot to the floor is not outlandish (looks like about 40 degrees to me). The camera angle does accentuate the point on the left foot.

[Kitty]

are there any successful couples where the woman is taller or same height?

[SDsalsaguy]

are there any successful couples where the woman is taller or same height?
Two couples come straight to my mind, although I'm not sure if their heights are exactly thes same or not... but they're fairly close: Massimo & Alessia and William & Alessandra.

[Joe]

I'm trying to figure out the correct way of doing it. Thank you everyone for your help.
Everyone will tell you something different. Things like:
- try rolling your shoulder(s) back as if you were doing a back flip
- think of creating a leftward spiral with your body around the man
- extend your ribcage to the left, laterally only and not upwards

[Elizabeth]

It sounds like your coaches aren't addressing your issues. I'd be particularly concerned if you coach told you to do the thing that ended up injuring your shoulder.

Is your current coach male? I would guess so if most of the lesson time is spent on floorcraft. There are many great male coaches out there, but in general I've found that female coaches do a much better job at explaing the shape a lady should take. You might want to take a lesson or three with a top female coach and focus just on that.

he wasn't a coach, he was boyfriend...

my current coach is female, her name is Jennifer McCalla,
but 1) floorcraft is one of her priorities and 2) my partners leading and floorcraft are exceptionally are very weak points compared with his awesome movement and posture and so on...

Oh, OK, I'm a lot less concerned if it was your boyfriend, not your coach, told you to do the thing that injured your shoulder. That'll teach you to listen to your boyfriend. :D Of course, I always listen to my husband and try to do whatever he tells me to do, but that's totally different. :wink: He knows everything.

I'm sure Jennifer McCalla can fix any posture problems that you have, you just have to make it a priority at one lesson. If you agree that your partner's floorcraft really dones need the work, then it sounds like she's doing the right thing, but if you have questions about other stuff you should certainly bring them up and get them addressed with your coach. Any advice you get from the folks here on the forums is no substitute for real, in-person coaching, and bad advice can lead to bad habits.

Its also nice to hear that someone is teaching floorcraft. I was beginning to think no one bothered.

[Kitty]

I'm sure Jennifer McCalla can fix any posture problems that you have, you just have to make it a priority at one lesson. If you agree that your partner's floorcraft really dones need the work, then it sounds like she's doing the right thing, but if you have questions about other stuff you should certainly bring them up and get them addressed with your coach. Any advice you get from the folks here on the forums is no substitute for real, in-person coaching, and bad advice can lead to bad habits.

Its also nice to hear that someone is teaching floorcraft. I was beginning to think no one bothered.

well, in her opinion it was #1 thing that needed improvement, in my opinion we spent too much time on it... (last lesson though was finally different: she concentrated on my toe releases and forward walks... that was nice - I'm finally getting things to work on. Honestly, I think I know floorcraft so well by now, and so much better than my partner :lol:)
Jennifer McCalla doesn't seem to think I have any posture problems. At least I asked if I need to change anything with my frame and posture and she always replied that it's fine.
I also never explained her much about the injury, so maybe thats why she doesn't concentrate on my arm. I'll bring it up about my frame and poise in the next lesson.

[Chris Stratton]

There's knowing how figures can fit together, and then there's leading a good one in the instant when it counts. The first part came easily, the second took about a year of leading really silly combinations and getting stuck in corners... and that still happens when I haven't been out there doing it enough.

[Kitty]

There's knowing how figures can fit together, and then there's leading a good one in the instant when it counts. The first part came easily, the second took about a year of leading really silly combinations and getting stuck in corners... and that still happens when I haven't been out there doing it enough.

he dances us into a corner and then does a non-syllabus or high-level figure from there... I complain, he says "what else could I do from there?"

lately he started dancing us into a corner and asking me what to do from there. I usually come up with a legal solution... :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

Somehwere there's an old comp video of me leading a promenade ending on something a bit too close to the corner, and having to make use of a little entry-way to get turned around - at which point the friend holding the camera can be heard to shout "don't leave the room, Chris!"

Assuming for a minute that it's the leader facing into the corner and silver syllabus restriction;

Tango - reverse corte is just made for this

Foxtrot - top spin, or if noticed earlier change of direction or reverse check & weave

Waltz - corner whisk often works well, but follow it with something like a weave towards diag center rather than an overly flat chasse. But if already in promenade... hmm - cross hesitation into outside spin ended as it if were a spin turn (haven't tried it and have to see if it's legal)

Quickstep - this is the tough one - any ideas?

[Elizabeth]

Jennifer McCalla doesn't seem to think I have any posture problems. At least I asked if I need to change anything with my frame and posture and she always replied that it's fine.


Well, based on the pictures I'd say she may have a point. You don't look bad, and are probably much better in the posture department than most of the people you are dancing against. I don't recall seeing you dance in person, so I can't comment on how your posture compares to the other aspects of your dancing. On the other hand, no one is perfect in the posture department, so there's always room for improvement. If you're psyched to work on your posture, then it rates to have the best advice you can get.

Another thing to consider is that other aspects of the dancing can affect your posture. If you're doing something else wrong, you can get out of position relative to your partner and totally mess your hold up. Sometimes its not always obvious when a coach is working on something that affects posture.

[Kitty]

Tango - reverse corte is just made for this

Quickstep - this is the tough one - any ideas?

cross chasse (it is similar to whisk) in quickstep (it is at the end of the book in the "additional figures" section)

in tango you mean back corte?

[Kitty]

Well, based on the pictures I'd say she may have a point. You don't look bad, and are probably much better in the posture department than most of the people you are dancing against.

And Chris saw us in person at Yale and thought that we looked better than other couples in pretty much all departments (except probably floorcraft, but thats why we dance routines: prepared groups of steps)... (feet, movement, togetherness, stable dance position and so on... ) and yet we didn't get into the final... go figure...

[Chris Stratton]

cross chasse (it is similar to whisk) in quickstep


I left this off mistakenly thinking it was gold (it's bronze). The problem though is that it officially has no turn, so you may end up even further into the corner with not better alignment.

Something that should work though is a fishtail - turning further into the corner, checking into the R foot forward 7th step, and then the leader backing out, according to the book "LF back with lady OP , TH, S into four quick run". I'll have to try it sometime...

[Another Elizabeth]

I also never explained her much about the injury, so maybe thats why she doesn't concentrate on my arm. I'll bring it up about my frame and poise in the next lesson.
If you are injured by trying to do something in dancing, any good coach should take it seriously - and Jennifer is a good coach. Explain to her what happened, and I bet she will spend some time with you on posture. However, be prepared for it to look worse from the outside for a while before it looks better. I'm not convinced the two of you are ready for a real left poise yet, given the photos you've showed us. If you've been creating a facsimile that looks OK from the outside but doesn't really get there the right way, the first step of the fix will be to eliminate that habit and go back to dancing in a vertical posture.

[Kitty]

how about an underturned spin turn? or is that not allowed?

"tipple chasse to right (at corner)"

Running finish?

[Kitty]

I'm not convinced the two of you are ready for a real left poise yet, given the photos you've showed us. If you've been creating a facsimile that looks OK from the outside but doesn't really get there the right way, the first step of the fix will be to eliminate that habit and go back to dancing in a vertical posture.

Am I not vertical enough in your opinion, should I be more vertical? Or does what I'm doing now count as "dancing in vertical posture"?

[Chris Stratton]

I think Kitty and her partner are off to a quite good start, and had little to learn about actual dancing from the couples who placed ahead of them last weekend. More facility with material and floorcraft could help, but also as a shorter couple anything they can do to make their clean actions stand out more would make the judge's job easier. To that effect, I'd like to see her partner in something trimmer than the billowing white shirt - either one that is better fitted (hard to find) or put a vest over it. And while I think the cut of the black gown is very flattering, a brigher color would really help draw attention, even it the actual dress isn't as nice. I found for example that they stood out much more when watching from the balcony, where trends and continuity of movement draw the eye, than watching from the corner of the floor where there are so many distractions complicating the view.

[Kitty]

I think Kitty and her partner are off to a quite good start, and had little to learn about actual dancing from the couples who placed ahead of them last weekend. More facility with material and floorcraft could help, but also as a shorter couple anything they can do to make their clean actions stand out more would make the judge's job easier.
And while I think the cut of the black gown is very flattering, a brigher color would really help draw attention, even it the actual dress isn't as nice.

do you think I need a brighter dress for all types of competition or only for larger events?
Do you think black gown would be fine in a direct final, or do I need a brighter dress even in a final?

[Chris Stratton]

Well, I'm on record as being strongly against black gowns.

With the man usually needing to wear mostly black, having the lady wear it as well both merges the couple into a single blob, and makes them look dim and uninsteresting compared to the others on the floor. I think that one of the champ couples suffered similarly - they were fairly good with a few notable problems but the black gown didn't do anything to make them look exciting, while competition that was arguably equal if you weighed all factors was in flowing pink... BTW, the black gown was covered with stones and the pink had little or none.

[Katarzyna]

BTW, the black gown was covered with stones and the pink had little or none.

Pink had like 50 gross of stones.... :D (If it was good enough for Katusha Demidova it must have been special in some way)

I think its the movement of this gown that sells it on the floor.

[Chris Stratton]

Wow, my powers of observation are going. Next think I know, you're going to tell met that a guy in a gorilla suit ran out and shot a few baskets during the Vw.

[Katarzyna]

I think its because it used smaller ss16 stones rather than what looked like ss20 on the black dress (which was totally covered with stones and I think would be striking on a different couple).

[Another Elizabeth]

Am I not vertical enough in your opinion, should I be more vertical? Or does what I'm doing now count as "dancing in vertical posture"?
You appear to be trying to create leftward poise. It's hard to tell in still photos whether you're doing it "correctly," although I can't see much obvious to point to other than what's already been discussed. But the partnership does not look like your partner is leading that much poise, so I suspect it's being produced somewhat artificially. Also, if trying to create left poise has caused you to injure your shoulder, then you are doing it wrong a priori. Habits that produce something close to the right look, but with the wrong body mechanics, are often the most difficult to eradicate. In my experience, what works to get rid of them is to step back to a more "basic" level for a while to eliminate the bad habit, and then to substitute back in the correct body mechanics. In this case, that would mean eliminating leftward poise and concentrating on a purely vertical posture without a stretch into the man's right hand.

But you have to be prepared for the idea that your dancing will look "worse" for a little while in order to look better in the long run. (The reason that I put "worse" in quotation marks is that to a sufficiently educated observer, the incorrect body mechanics look worse than the scaled-back version, even though it may look better to the layman).

I don't know for sure that your current poise is a major problem - the coach who sees you regularly doesn't seem to feel that it is. I wouldn't advise you to go against what she's telling you. But I would make sure she understands that you have some issues in this area that have caused you an injury, so she understands why focusing on it is a priority for you. If she does decide that it merits attention, she may start by doing something that seems to you to make your dancing look worse. I just wanted you to be prepared for that possibility, and to understand that it can be created by sound pedagogy.

[Kitty]

But you have to be prepared for the idea that your dancing will look "worse" for a little while in order to look better in the long run. (The reason that I put "worse" in quotation marks is that to a sufficiently educated observer, the incorrect body mechanics look worse than the scaled-back version, even though it may look better to the layman).

If she does decide that it merits attention, she may start by doing something that seems to you to make your dancing look worse. I just wanted you to be prepared for that possibility, and to understand that it can be created by sound pedagogy.

Ok, thank you for the warning. I actually prefer working first on very clean and vertical technique to shapes and poise and other artistic stuff. It upsets my partner that I prefer to dance with elbows II to the floor and with balance and smaller but cleaner steps, as opposed to shapes, and sway and larger (but less in balance) steps.
Poise is a priority for me though: someone kept saying how terrible my vertical posture is so that I now feel that dancing without proper leftward poise is BAD. I try very hard not to do too much and to do it correctly to the best of my knowledge (I actually do know some things about poise, though not enough), but right now it kinda feels I need to get the poise in order to prove someone that I can.

[Chris Stratton]

You could win Blackpool and he still wouldn't believe you were dancing well. Dance for you.

[Kitty]

You could win Blackpool and he still wouldn't believe you were dancing well. Dance for you.

I thought trying to prove someone something was for myself? no?

I don't even know now what I'd want myself. Probably wouldn't stress about it and wouldn't have gotten the injury in the first place.

If not him, I'd probably prefer to dance very vertically right now.

[Another Elizabeth]

The only person besides yourself who should get any vote on how much poise you have is your partner. Your coach can advise (and you should listen and consider her advice), but do it because you're convinced it's right for you. Trying to prove something to your boyfriend will get you nowhere. If he's so smart, how come trying to follow his advice injured you?

[Kitty]

The only person besides yourself who should get any vote on how much poise you have is your partner. Your coach can advise (and you should listen and consider her advice), but do it because you're convinced it's right for you. Trying to prove something to your boyfriend will get you nowhere. If he's so smart, how come trying to follow his advice injured you?

because he wasn't trying to help me, he was trying to prove that I know and can do nothing,
and he was trying to use the lesson as an opportunity to yell at me (if I complained he'd be like "I'm teaching you now, I can use different educational methods...")

he is ex now

[Another Elizabeth]

Well, then, dance the way you want to, and don't worry about polling the world or pleasing someone that you know you can never please.

[Kitty]

Well, then, dance the way you want to, and don't worry about polling the world or pleasing someone that you know you can never please.

Oh, yes of course. I dance for myself. After the injury though I completely changed my poise and frame, and recently it was pointed out for me by my old teacher and some friends that I have something wierd going on with my shoulders and arms, but I couldn't figure out what exactly, so I asked if other people see anything wrong with it...

[Joe]

Its also nice to hear that someone is teaching floorcraft. I was beginning to think no one bothered.
Teaching is good. Actually marking is even better...but what are the odds of that? :roll:

[Joe]

you are doing it wrong a priori
Lawyers... :D

[Elizabeth]

Its also nice to hear that someone is teaching floorcraft. I was beginning to think no one bothered.
Teaching is good. Actually marking is even better...but what are the odds of that? :roll:

Well, I'm not going to hold my breath. :roll:

I'm also going to continue to look for sharp pointy things to wear in my hair. I swear if I have one more guy ram into the back of my head while going against LOD/cutting across the center I'm going to spend some serious time trying to figure out how to conceal a dagger inside of a french twist.

[Kitty]

wire shoe brush is the most painful thing to hit that I know...

[Another Elizabeth]

I'm also going to continue to look for sharp pointy things to wear in my hair. I swear if I have one more guy ram into the back of my head while going against LOD/cutting across the center I'm going to spend some serious time trying to figure out how to conceal a dagger inside of a french twist.
We have these plastic mat things with a battery attached that give the cats a mild static shock when they step on them (used for training them to stay off the dining room table). Maybe you could come up with something similar to put in your hair? :twisted:

[Elizabeth]

We have these plastic mat things with a battery attached that give the cats a mild static shock when they step on them (used for training them to stay off the dining room table). Maybe you could come up with something similar to put in your hair? :twisted:

Now there is a project for Chris! He's an electrical engineer and he sews. He could do one of those stoned lace hair appliques, and attach batteries and wires underneath. They'd sell like hot cakes, and I bet we'd see a vast improvement in floor craft if most women wore zapping hair ornaments. :shock:

[Another Elizabeth]

For a lower-tech solution, how about coating your hair in some kind of powder, so you can leave "chalk marks" on any unwary tailsuit that hits it? :wink:

[Chris Stratton]

Now there is a project for Chris! He's an electrical engineer and he sews. He could do one of those stoned lace hair appliques, and attach batteries and wires underneath. They'd sell like hot cakes, and I bet we'd see a vast improvement in floor craft if most women wore zapping hair ornaments. :shock:

And then I could turn around and sell high dielectric strength tailsuits...

[Joe]

Now, if you could build a tailsuit that stiffens up when you pass a current through it...no more frame problems! :)

[Kitty]

I just watched the video from Yale... turns out my frame looks nicest in Vw and second best in quickstep :shock: and not so good in waltz.
Maybe thats because I don't have time to stress about it in those dances and it naturally comes out ok. Or maybe it is because there are no promenades to mess it up...