View Full Version : Understanding C&W Competitive Levels
pygmalion
12-06-2004, 11:39 AM
Okay. So here's a question for you. How do C&W comp dance levels work? C&W has basically no official syllabus, right? So how come, when I was looking at the Texas Hoedown results last week, I saw stuff like "C&W Waltz Gold level", "Two step level three" and "NC2S gold?" What is up with that? Are there syllabus levels or not? And, if so, how do they work? :?
There are 40 pages of rules (http://www.ucwdc.com/competition/rules.shtm) on this. As an attempt to boil it down: there are a very large number of different age-related divisions in country comps, and there isn't much of a pattern syllabus, but there are an enormous number of rules governing what you can and cannot do in different skill-based divisions within the age divisions.
There are a number of people who think the UCWDC has gone way overboard with the division system, and that the many different divisions exist primarily to increase the number of prizes that can be given out at comps. It is not unusual to have just 1-2 couples "competing" in some divisions at a typical event.
Vince A
12-09-2004, 12:12 PM
. . . and it's not unusual to have 1-2 couples competing the exact same routines in different age levels!
Can you "BORING?"
There are 40 pages of rules (http://www.ucwdc.com/competition/rules.shtm) on this.
:shock:
Vince A
12-09-2004, 01:07 PM
It's really not that bad . . . you just do it, and if you are out of costume, say a cha cha skirt split up to far or a 2 Step skirt too high above the knee . . . . . they'll tell you.
If you don't do the 12 count rule (so many basic vanillas before doing an alternative foot pattern) . . . they'll ding you for it, and then you can b***h at your Pro for not doing the correct choreography.
You learn to look at rules more carefully for the next time, and also learn not to rely on your Pro to always check you out. They have enough on their minds!
As you "grow" into more advanced levels, you learn all this stuff - what not to do and what TO DO! Just the same way you learn to execute certain dances better than you did as a Newcomer or Novice!
Dave Getty, who writes those rules, does a great job. No rule is perfect for everyone . . . you have to try to accomodate many! The UCWDC is a great organization.
pygmalion
12-09-2004, 04:58 PM
I'll take a look at the rules, but it seems that it'd be easier to just dance pro-am, and rely on the pro to do it right. After all, they HAVE to know the rules. It's their job. :roll: :lol:
Speaking of which, I wonder how the costs of pro-am compare between ballroom and C&W. I wonder why I have a feeling that C&W costs less. Hmm... How can I find out? Thinking ...
Vince A
12-09-2004, 05:21 PM
I'll take a look at the rules, but it seems that it'd be easier to just dance pro-am, and rely on the pro to do it right. After all, they HAVE to know the rules. It's their job. :roll: :lol:
Of course, every Pro knows every rule???? I wouldn't leave my future in dance in anyone else's hands. I would read them and understand them just to make sure they know what's happening. (Voice of experience speaking here).
Speaking of which, I wonder how the costs of pro-am compare between ballroom and C&W. I wonder why I have a feeling that C&W costs less. Hmm... How can I find out? Thinking ...
While doing Pro-Am . . . in the range of $40 to $100 per hour. THe average of most that we take from now is $65 p/h.
How does that compare with ballroom???
pygmalion
12-09-2004, 05:26 PM
I'll take a look at the rules, but it seems that it'd be easier to just dance pro-am, and rely on the pro to do it right. After all, they HAVE to know the rules. It's their job. :roll: :lol:
Of course, every Pro knows every rule???? I wouldn't leave my future in dance in anyone else's hands. I would read them and understand them just to make sure they know what's happening. (Voice of experience speaking here).
Good point, Vince. I should have thought of that. Voice of some, but clearly not enough, experience, speaking here. :lol:
Speaking of which, I wonder how the costs of pro-am compare between ballroom and C&W. I wonder why I have a feeling that C&W costs less. Hmm... How can I find out? Thinking ...
While doing Pro-Am . . . in the range of $40 to $100 per hour. THe average of most that we take from now is $65 p/h.
How does that compare with ballroom???
About the same for the hourly rates. I was thinking of the actual competition entry fees, etc. For some reason, it appears to me that the ballroom infrastructure is set up to cost more than C&W. Could be wrong ...
I was just wondering, I've seen C&W events included in a few ballroom competitions. What set of rules apply? NCDA? Or the 40 page rulebook? Or whatever the organizer decides?
Vince A
12-10-2004, 11:54 AM
I was thinking of the actual competition entry fees, etc. For some reason, it appears to me that the ballroom infrastructure is set up to cost more than C&W. Could be wrong ...
OK . . . basic 3 to 4 day entry fees range $85 to $125 plus $15 - $20 per dance entered. Don't forget that each Pro gets a stipend per dance, say $20 . . . 8 dances adds up. So, if you took the high of the above for 10 dances: $125 + $200 + $200 + $525. Now, if the same person wants to do 2 Jack and Jills, another $30. Now we are at $555. Add in hotel and food fees for the weekend; travel expenses; have a drink or two at the socail dances; purchase new shoes or a venue T shirt??? Don't forget to factor in all those extra privates you tkae just before a comp.
Sound expensive? Heck yes, but you can get it back.
How??? Become a Pro . . . get paid by your students . . . get your flight fare and hotel comp'd by the organization . . . but you probably would have to teach a class or two and maybe do some judging!
Hope I don't discourage anyone from competing, but you get to be a Pro for free. We all have to pay the "dues."
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 12:01 PM
Hmm. Where did I put that ballroom pro/am thread? I don't want to misquote the costs but yes, it does seem that C&W is quite a bit less expensive. Maybe that's the way for me to go, if I want to keep the costs down but still compete. :idea:
Vince A
12-10-2004, 12:22 PM
I agree . . . we've gone to a few ballroom events to support some friends who were competing over the weekend.
We paid the entire venue entry fee - the whole weekend amount - for one fricken evening event. Needless to say . . . we haven't been back!
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 12:23 PM
And there IS a lot of C&W in Dallas, where I'll be living. How do you find a good C&W dance pro? Personal referrals?
Vince A
12-10-2004, 01:16 PM
And there IS a lot of C&W in Dallas, where I'll be living. How do you find a good C&W dance pro? Personal referrals?
http://dcforum.whathelps.com/Educationhelps/cgi-bin/forums/dcboard.pl?az=list&forum=UCWDCforum&conf=DCConfID1
Go to the UCWDC website . . . there is a forum . . . ask. UCWD is where you want to compete, as your ballroom training will be so valuable to you. You should move right up the ranks . . . as that org is rapidly moving to "the ballroom look" as I've stated before.
Once you get a few names listed . . . come back to me . . . I'll give the other-side perspective as a (sometimes) competitor.
I can't recall his last name at the moment, but I know of one really great Pro from that area . . . his first name is Sam . . . he and his wife also compete together.
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 01:18 PM
Woohoo! This is getting exciting! :banana: I seem to remember a Sam (something) at one of the studios I checked out over Thanksgiving. :idea:
Vince A
12-10-2004, 01:19 PM
Woohoo! This is getting exciting! :banana: I seem to remember a Sam (something) at one of the studios I checked out over Thanksgiving. :idea:
Jenn,
I added the online community for you at UCWDC. Just click
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 01:21 PM
Cool. See you over there. :D
Vince A
12-10-2004, 01:29 PM
Cool. See you over there. :D
You bet . . .
Get on the online community "and ask" . . . check the event schedules, there are at least 2 comps in the Dallas area. You've competited before . . . just get a Pro and get with it. Compete, learn, and grow as you do!
Fresno, CA, is the best event around . . . maybe Atlanta, too!
Vince A
12-10-2004, 03:45 PM
Jenn,
Mario Robau is in Dallas (I think???) . . . you can't get much better!
Also:
http://web2.airmail.net/patcote1/comps.html
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 07:24 PM
Yay! Thanks. :D
SDsalsaguy
12-10-2004, 08:11 PM
Mario Robau is in Dallas (I think???) . . . you can't get much better!
As long as you don't sit in front of him at "The Show" in Reno! :wink:
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 08:20 PM
What happened in Reno? (Oh! Is he the talker? :lol: :lol: )
SDsalsaguy
12-10-2004, 08:30 PM
Yup, one of them!
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 08:32 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'll try to rein him in (if I can convince him to teach me. :oops: :lol: ) :wink:
pygmalion
12-10-2004, 09:03 PM
Damn! He's in Houston. (Which is not too far to drive or take a puddle-jumper. I already have a plan to do that and get my ISTD certifications for ballroom from a studio in Houston.) Maybe I can set up dance weekends in Houston every two or three weeks and do both ballroom and swing.
btw. He seems accessible. And he teaches swing, WCS and push. And he has a really impressive resume. marioswingdaddy.com
I think I'll be giving him a call. 8)
Vince A
12-12-2004, 08:06 PM
The "Sam" mentioned, I think, is also in Houston. That's not too far, especially for the likes of Mario, but IMHO, I'd bet anything that there is somebody just as good in Dallas/Ft. Worth area.
Keep your ballroom stuff, but do checkout the UCWDC events . . . maybe you might do Fresno some year. Another small DF reunion???
Dancergal, jon, and others make that one. Heck, SD might even try it. It is the best CW event in my opionion.
pygmalion
12-13-2004, 12:58 AM
Yep. I'm checking out UCWDC. 8) :D
I'll try to rein him in
IIRC, Mario's day job is at a salon, so you may be able to get both private lessons and hair styling from him :-)
pygmalion
12-13-2004, 06:54 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: I'll look into that. :wink:
Vince A
12-16-2004, 04:28 PM
Find anyone yet???
pygmalion
12-16-2004, 07:23 PM
Not yet. 8) I leave here Tuesday and drive, arriving Thursday the 23rd. So the week between holidays, I'll be out dancing, if at all possible. 8) I'll keep you-all posted. (Notice introduction of suitable Dallas-oriented slang? :wink: :lol: )
Vince A
12-17-2004, 10:31 AM
Love it . . . you'll look and sound like you've always been a Texan!
Great state . . . lived there for about 5 years!
Don't forget . . . if you do find someone, and intend on competing in C&W . . . you'll need a pair of Evening Star boots. And, right off the bat get the custom made ones that snuggly fit your foot and do not have the inner toe cap. The cost difference between a standard pair and custom made is small. Carolyn said that her dancing confidence and floor feel went up 50% with the new custom made boots. This was after competing for about 5 years with the regular ones for dancing, which are fine the way they are, but just not made for your foot!
After you get settled and need more info, get ahold of me . . .
pygmalion
12-17-2004, 01:47 PM
I'll look you up, Vince. 8)
cntrydancer2004
01-17-2005, 10:09 AM
The pro you are looking for in the Texas area is Sam Arvidson. He actively competes with his wife Mona in Masters Showcase. They are awesome!! I have watched them compete for several years now and have seen them move up the ranks rather quickly. They know their stuff!!
Vince A
01-17-2005, 05:25 PM
The pro you are looking for in the Texas area is Sam Arvidson. He actively competes with his wife Mona in Masters Showcase. They are awesome!! I have watched them compete for several years now and have seen them move up the ranks rather quickly. They know their stuff!!
I'll second Sam and Mona . . . for you, Jenn, that may be a long drive . . . about 230 miles . . . you are in Dallas and I believe they are based out of Houston, as they own a studio there.
They are great if you can get to them!!!
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