International Cha Basic

[G809]

Hey all,

My latin partner and I have been having an argument about the cha basic which is not easy to explain, but I'd like to try. Basically, everything was going well until he watched some Hazel Newberry video in which she teaches technique to dance teachers (this video is a taping of a lecture in Russian and is not widely available) and discusses her "hip throwing" cha chase technique. The last thing I want to do is proclaim that Hazel Newberry is wrong ( :shock: ) but I really feel like my partner totally misunderstood what she was saying because his interpretation of how the cha basic should be seems to me to be totally insane. The peculiarity of it all is that when he does his basic and I do mine (ie--the real one), we end up in the same position and they look VERY similar, so I think it's basically a matter of losing power and leg speed with this new "method" (ha!).

Anyway, I basically just need confimation that this is as crazy as I think it is. If this explanation is way too hard to understand, please just tell me what *you* think happens in the basic and I can then compare.
(From the ladies' perspective)
His new idea:
2 - step back right
3 - step forward left
4 - step side right, move hip to the right, weight transfer to right
& - Tranfer weight to left foot and move hip left
1 - somehow use the left foot to then push onto the right foot. End with left hip in raised position.

What I have always thought:
2 - step back
3 - forward
4 - Left is straight, prepare to transfer weight to inside right foot (bent)
& - weight on right (straight), left foot closed to right and bent; body stretch left shoulder to right hip
1 - Use left foot, which was bent to push yourself onto your right foot. End with left hip high, opposite body stretch

So, it seems to me that it's totally obvious that this gives you sharpness on the 1 because you can generate power by pushing onto the inside edge of the left. Is this wrong? His method seems to lack any power or sharpness and looks pretty silly in my opinion (not to be biased here :D ). In his defense, Hazel praises this "hip throwing" thing because she thinks this is faster, but I've always believed in using your feet and never your hips to move. My partner's interpretation of Hazel's video is also crazy for other reasons, like the fact that it seems to disagree with stuff hazel says later in the video so can't possibly be right. Anyway, I'm totally irritated by his insistence on this -- please do give opinions.

(sorry for the terribly confusing question!)

P

[Chris Stratton]

I'm not really sure what the difference is... the only thing I can see is that in the description of your own method you never explicitly mention when you take your weight off the moving foot so as to be able to move it for the last step.

[delamusica]

It sounds like in your version you're not transfering weight to your right foot on 4? It seems like you would have to move your weight to the right foot on 4 so that you could switch it back to the left on the &, putting yourself into position to move crisply back to the right foot on 1. I think I must be misunderstanding the timing of what you wrote . . . how do you get enough steps in without taking an actual step on 4?

[G809]

Yes, sorry, I guess I didn't explain well. It's hard to explain something like this! :D

The main difference is basically in the last step: before stepping on 1, what leg should your weight be on?

(maybe this is the way I should have asked the question in the first place!)

[Angelo]

What I find puzzling about the description of your partner's version is weight transfer and hip position on the "&." As I understand it, there is a lot of pressure into the floor with the left foot but it is not a full weight transfer(yet). What Hazel Newberry may have been trying to emphasize, is a strong push with the left foot to transfer on to the right foot. Thinking about "throwing the hip" seems to be uneccessarily esoteric unless a person is not getting sufficient push off of the ball of the left foot . If taken to an extreme, It seems like it could also result in introducing a swivel action in the left foot which will most likely detract from the efficiency and speed of the movement. However, without actually being able to see what she is talking about I can't really be sure.

As delamusica pointed out, your despcription is also a little puzzling. the left leg is straight at the end of "3" the weight transfers to the right on "4" Otherwise, your version seems to be the more efficient one.


In a seminar a few months ago, Eugene Katsevman covered some of the hip and leg positions of the cha cha basic. If I remember correctly, he said that one way you can think about the cha cha basic is to think of it as a rumba basic where you take three steps to execute the side motion instead of one. The context of the discussion covered only hip and leg actions and all the usual "rules" about cha cha timing still apply.

[Angelo]

Yes, sorry, I guess I didn't explain well. It's hard to explain something like this! :D

The main difference is basically in the last step: before stepping on 1, what leg should your weight be on?

(maybe this is the way I should have asked the question in the first place!)

The weight is mostly on the left with the pressure into the floor being provided by the ball of the left foot (inside edge of course).

[Chris Stratton]

before stepping on 1, what leg should your weight be on?


The leg it won't be on after stepping on one, otherwise it wouldn't be a step but a fake. Seriously - how could you step to the side on an already weighted leg?

Does anyone do their cha-cha basic with fake weight changes?

One thing to keep in mind if real weight changes seem to be taking too long is to make sure not to launch the body upwards into steps - if you go up, you have to wait to come down. But if you launch the body aimed at exactly where you want to end up, you can do the weight changes quickly.

[madmaximus]

Hello G809. You may know this already, but sometimes we forget that a step is composed of different phases--and that the ending phase of one step becomes the beginning of the second step. Here's what my mentors taught me on the basic Latin movement.

1) Stand beside a wall to your right (perpendicular position) with your feet apart. Your feet should be directly under your arms--maybe less, but should not be farther than the edge of your shoulders.

2) For this exercise your right foot should be approximately 18-20 cms away from the wall (about 7 or so inches--more if you're really good). Now turnout your feet in Latin stance.

3) Put all your weight on the left foot (lift the heel of the right foot). Let's presume that this is the position when you're in the middle of the *&* count (approx.).

(So, now for the *1* count: )

4) Beginning phase: Shift your weight so your torso/center is between your feet. (For this exercise, both your feet should be flat on the floor).

5) Middle phase: Lift your Left Heel off the ground--this will move your hip to the right--until your weight is entirely on the right foot--keeping the Left Ball/Toe in contact with the floor. (This is where we *usually* see the Left Hip in raised position--and where all the good stuff about compressing one's side and raising the other comes in.)

6) Ending Phase (and beginning of the next step--count *2*) Continue moving your hip to the right until it touches the wall (get your right arm out of the way here). Let the left hip settle down. You may at this point start the next step.

My point here is that there is overlap between the start and endings of most steps. One of the higher skills is knowing where to put the phase of the movement with regards to the musical measure--which goes to expression, a different topic altogether. Here, phase no. 6 would be the same ending as that of the *&* count--perhaps the hip push would be done to a lesser degree.

This was designed to show me how my hip moved, and how it travels through a span of time. Obviously there is more to it, but this are the major components. It illustrates the movement from the lower center down to your feet. The top will vary depending on the current step being undertaken. There will also be variation on when the left foot is moved with regards to the count.

Note that the higher the level of dancing, the greater the recognition of the discrete phases within a movement. Disagreements will usually stem from misunderstanding a partner's view with regards to the phase of where the body currently is.


maximus

[UltraMagnus]

His new idea:
2 - step back right
3 - step forward left
4 - step side right, move hip to the right, weight transfer to right
& - Tranfer weight to left foot and move hip left
1 - somehow use the left foot to then push onto the right foot. End with left hip in raised position.


This is the correct breakdown of the cuban motion that is in the Cha Cha 1 that is occurring. I do not agree with "throwing the hip", but that IS what it looks like in the end...you just are not actually throwing it. The 4&1 section does have three clear weight transfers and if you use your body (not just your feet), there will be plenty of sharpness. This clarity of motion is derived from many places, but if you want a more in depth definition into Latin movement, read "Thinking, Sensing, Doing" by Ruud Vermey

[SDsalsaguy]

The full reference (in case it is of interest) is:

Vermey, Ruud. Latin: Thinking, Sensing and Doing in Latin American Dancing. Munich, Germany: Kastell Verlag. 1994.

[UltraMagnus]

Thanks....I had to remember the info from the back of my head ;)

[G809]

Thanks for all the amazing responses, guys!!! I really appreciate it!

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks....I had to remember the info from the back of my head ;)
No problem, it was on the shelf right next to my computer. :wink: