If you are a 'salsa snob' ...

[Jamie]

... please DO NOT dance with me !!

*grumbles* ...

I need a T-Shirt "If you are a salsa snob please DO NOT dance with me" ... to prevent anyone (with salsa snob tendencies) from accepting the offer of a dance with me.

I personally don't mind dancing with anyone ... ability is not that important to me at all ... but synergy / a sense / feeling of connection with partner is ... infact that's fundimental for me.

I am happy for dance with beginners or followers that are more skilled / experienced than I am ... but what really pisses me off is dancing with someone better than me and they're looking completely bored and avoiding eye contact / not smiling / not really participating in the dance.

(as you may have guessed ... I danced with a girl like this tonight)

Do I expect too much !?

I really really really detest snobbery.

I also hate the fact that I felt oblidged to put on a brave face and finish the dance with her ... as soon as she was looking bored I just didn't want to be there ... would it have been wrong for me to stop mid song !?

"look ... we're clearly not enjoying this ... let's quit"

OR

"madam ... you'd be far better off dancing by yourself"

What should I have done !?

(soz if this sounds all bitter and twisted)

</bitter_and_twisted>

love,
Jamie

[dancin/dj]

hey jamie,who has not had this happen to them,im sure everyone on this board.cant really say what u should do,i know i've endured such behavior more so in the past and im not into publicly confronting ladies-however i've changed(in terms of being more bold) because im fed up(does not happen often) fed up with rude and snobby people,i quess im at a point in life now where i would tell the girl lets stop this is not working or whatever i say at that moment ,the person is disrespecting you publicly, so we dont have too go off on them, but we dont have to dance anymore either.if someone wants a showdown they would pick the wrong person to tangle with (i dont mean fist fight) because i rip them from here to venus :lol: ,some of my fed up ness lol ,come from some women, only a few here and there, who think there timing experts, dance real stiff, lock into patterns only,dont dance to the music, and want to correct me(im open to correcting when im off) but this is not the case.all of a sudden people who dont play instuments (like me for 30 years) go to salsa classes or whatever type of dance, go for 6 months or even 2 years and they know it all-,yes im sure they could jump right up with professional musicans and play or go on broadway and dance with the rocketts,sorry ladies to be fair if you reading-this applys to men also 8)

[Jamie]

Thanks dancin/dj, it's very nice to know I'm not alone. :D :D

At the time I was actually blaming myself, well, maybe blame is too strong, I was questioning myself (am I being a sleeze? (no) am I being rude? (no) am I dancing like a muppet? (no)). On reflection I'm quite sure it wasn't my fault.

I'm not into confronting people and making a scene in public, or being rude to people, I can't see the point in being so.

I'm concerned that I felt it was more important to continue (because custom demands whatever) than to stop. Even though all my feeling and energy was screeming out "I don't wanna be here".

Is it more important to follow 'customs' and 'ettiquette' or to follow your energy and do / say what you feel? What happens when the two are at odds?

[bordertangoman]

You are making a lot of assumptions about what she was feeling without asking her. maybe if she was bored it could have been the music not you. There's songs that inspire me and others that make me groan inwardly.

If you ar dancing for a whole evening ( or a lifetime) a few duff experiences are inevitable and not worth worrying about.

PS I'm a tango snob, but also a gentleman; I will happily dance with partners of less experience, but sometimes even with good dancers it doesn't click, so I shrug and forget about it.

[tj]

Thanks dancin/dj, it's very nice to know I'm not alone. :D :D

At the time I was actually blaming myself, well, maybe blame is too strong, I was questioning myself (am I being a sleeze? (no) am I being rude? (no) am I dancing like a muppet? (no)). On reflection I'm quite sure it wasn't my fault.

I'm not into confronting people and making a scene in public, or being rude to people, I can't see the point in being so.

I'm concerned that I felt it was more important to continue (because custom demands whatever) than to stop. Even though all my feeling and energy was screeming out "I don't wanna be here".

Is it more important to follow 'customs' and 'ettiquette' or to follow your energy and do / say what you feel? What happens when the two are at odds?

Hmm... I've certainly been there too, so I definitely know what you're talking about.

How about one of these:

Give her some shines. This way she can do what she wants to do.

If it's really that bad, and both of you are having a miserable time, why not mention that it looks like neither of you are having any fun, and maybe you should both stop. This is less confrontational, and on the odd chance that she didn't realize, maybe it'll change?

I'm certainly interested in hearing what people have to say, because there's this one gal who I dance with well on a technical level, but we just don't click at all on the floor. Dunno what to do about it, except avoid dancing with her...

[Sagitta]

Well. Sometimes they enjoy themselves but don't know how to express it. It is tough to sometimes figure out what is going on.

[Jamie]

If it's really that bad, and both of you are having a miserable time, why not mention that it looks like neither of you are having any fun, and maybe you should both stop. This is less confrontational, and on the odd chance that she didn't realize, maybe it'll change?


I like that TJ, just asking her "maybe we should stop?". It would seem to deal with the situation in a friendly non-confrontational way.


I'm certainly interested in hearing what people have to say, because there's this one gal who I dance with well on a technical level, but we just don't click at all on the floor. Dunno what to do about it, except avoid dancing with her...

Me too.

I did notice some guys dancing last night and they just looked like whirling dervishes. Arms everywhere, really fast. But they were just pulling and pushing and tugging at the follower. I mean, what's the point in that? I just don't think there's any point in dancing with someone if there is no connection / feeling in it.

[Jamie]

Well. Sometimes they enjoy themselves but don't know how to express it. It is tough to sometimes figure out what is going on.

Sure.

For all I know, she may have recently had some bad news or something. I shouldn't take it personal I know, but I do tend to be over sensetive sometimes.

[new-ish]

I know how you feel, I had a dance like that and it really took the joy out of dancing for a long time.

We should probably cross link this thread to the "why men don't dance" thread.

[Vin]

Hi Jaime, I can also identify with this situation. But there is another side to this that many times we don't consider. In my case sometimes the bad vibe actually comes from me. Maybe I picked up the bad vibe from someone else and passed it on, maybe I shouldn't have gone out that night. But the moral is that I try and not hold the bored look against anyone in particular because I understand that often times it can be a combination of factors that might have anything to do with you.
I actually would stick it out in most cases but if I have to leave the dance floor I would just stop and say, "I am sorry, I am just not feeling it right now."
A great way to get over the funk is to dance a song that you really know well. If I know and like a song I always have a great dance with a great attitude, often times the great attitude rubs off on my partner.

[tj]

Thanks Jamie - and I also try to not form too immediate of an opinion. Sometimes this is unavoidable, but the example I gave was of a woman that I've danced with a bunch of times...

And Vin, good point. Sometimes its oneself...

Also, sometimes, it's just the conflict of personalities between the two of you, too. I've known plenty of times where I get along just fine with two people who can't stand each other!

[dancin/dj]

some of you guys are being(nice) there (are rude women out there) lets not make excuses for poor behavior-and try too feel and think what she"s thinking stuff-if someone looks bored, has attitude, etc, thats what it means .please dont down play this-look most of us are there too dance and have fun-but a insult is a insult don"t downplay it.how you deal or what you feel is up to you-and im not avocating being a jerk but come on guys. we defend the ladies when we hear of the reverse and guys are jerks ,slime balls, etc......... we stick up for the gals.

[Vin]

Dancin/dj, you are right, some women out there are plain rude, but why make a judgement about someone based on 5 minutes. I try and cut the girl some slack as well. If I find this happening over and over then yes I make a judgement that in the future I will refrain from dancing with her.

[Lucretia]

I know your problem it has happened to me too. Another perspective (it is sometimes hard to know what’s going on inside some ones head):

A few years ago I could have been that girl. To sensitive and afraid of flirting. I did avoid eye contact (but I guess I would have looked happy if I where happy with the dance :wink: ). I did never want anyone to believe I was a part of the meatmarket.

If I had been out this night I would probably have looked "bored" - but in my case it is because of the grieve all Swedes feel since so many died in Indonesia and Thailand (3500 still missing after the earthquake and following flood). Perhaps I had gone dancing anyhow, to force myself to think about something else. But if I didn’t manage to have a good time I guess I might have looked bored when I actually was “disconnected” from what was happening right here and now.

You can never know what was inside her head…..

If you only have dance with this girl once - don't judge her. If it happens next time - flush her forever.


/Lucretia

[Jamie]

You can never know what was inside her head…..

If you only have dance with this girl once - don't judge her. If it happens next time - flush her forever.


/Lucretia

Hi Lucretia,

Yes that's true. You can't know what's going on in the other persons head. Maybe she was upset about something else, infact looking back, she didn't do much dancing all night, so it's quite possible her head was elsewhere. I also have my own 'issues' and preconceptions that I'll be projecting on to the situation.

Reminds me of a Chinese proverb about a man travelling from one village to another in ancient China, he meets a sage on the road and asks what the people in the next village will be like, friendly or hostile ... "they'll be just the same as in the previous village" comes the reply. The idea being that it's the energy we bring in to any interaction that affects how people respond to us.

Not sure I'd throw anyone out forever, but I wouldn't go out of my way for her. If a person changes their attitude and warms to me then that's fine too, but I really don't care either way, so long as they're not rude or insulting.

I just didn't have a good night. Friday night (the 30th) was much more fun! hehe.

[Pacion]

Hmmm. Is it not possible to tell whether someone is distracted/disinterested rather than bored? I hope so.

I don't believe I have ever shown boredom on the dancefloor (I hope not, otherwise, somebody shoot me quick!). Disinterest/preoccupation, yes. For the times when I was "in another world", I would apologise to my dance partner so that he would know that it wasn't him. :?

[Salsaonone]

What I find humorous/annoying is that sometimes skilled dancers have that "dance" face....and I guess have not figured out how to make it look natural and happy...some faces "look" happy, but we know its a fake smile....other people when concentrating(me included) start to not smile...not necessarily a frown, but its more of a lack of a smile that people take for some meaning beyond concentrating....I have not spent any time on a dance face, so I dont know what my face is doing per say, although I smile most of the time anyway....however, I see professional dances break into that "face", each with their own style, but you know its there....When i dance with followers who break into that "face" I sometimes have a hard time stppping myself from laughing...I just find it funny...maybe its me....and sometimes I try to break out their normal natural face by either talking to them or making funny faces at them....

[Pacion]

...some faces "look" happy, but we know its a fake smile....

How do you know it is a fake smile? As I understand it, under normal circumstances you can tell that someone is faking their smile if their eyes are not smiling. In the dance context, you would have to be having eye contact to "know" if the smile has reached their eyes or not :raisebro:

[tchaguito]

For me, a snob is always a snob. It's all a matter of education and class (or in this case, lack of it). Like everything in life, having integrity and values also counts in salsa. And someone who is a very advanced dancer, but has humility, is there for the fun and for the passion for dancing, and is hardly ever selective. Is a person looking bored having any fun? I don't think so. So why did they accept to dance in the first place, is there any hidden agenda? I rather dance with a perfect beginner with a fantastic attitude than with a diva that seems to have the soul switch in the off mode.

[Sagitta]

I rather dance with a perfect beginner with a fantastic attitude than with a diva that seems to have the soul switch in the off mode.

My sentiments, exactly. :)

[Sabor]

how about a t-shirt that says:

"Salsa snobs, please dance with me!
I'll put u back in place in a jiffy! [grin smiley pic]"

hmm.. not too snobbish i hope :lol:

[dancin/dj]

how about a t-shirt that says:

"Salsa snobs, please dance with me!
I'll put u back in place in a jiffy! [grin smiley pic]"

hmm.. not too snobbish i hope :lol: lol :lol:

[dancin/dj]

Hmmm. Is it not possible to tell whether someone is distracted/disinterested rather than bored? I hope so.

I don't believe I have ever shown boredom on the dancefloor (I hope not, otherwise, somebody shoot me quick!). Disinterest/preoccupation, yes. For the times when I was "in another world", I would apologise to my dance partner so that he would know that it wasn't him. :? yes and thats a good point pacion(first off we all have different levels of perception) and of course we cant lump all people in a box as we see it-to be fair minded,but im talking about the fact that sometimes people (are rude and you did just get slapped in the face-if you want a good barometer of the person watch them at various dances, clubs, they remain consistent in the way they behave :wink: ,then u wont feel bad when you rip them to pieces in your verbal diatribe :x (im partly joking) :lol:

[Jamie]

I rather dance with a perfect beginner with a fantastic attitude than with a diva that seems to have the soul switch in the off mode.

Me too !!!!

Give me someone with a friendly warm happy positive energy about them ... rather than someone with a snob like disposition.

[Salsaonone]

...some faces "look" happy, but we know its a fake smile....

How do you know it is a fake smile? As I understand it, under normal circumstances you can tell that someone is faking their smile if their eyes are not smiling. In the dance context, you would have to be having eye contact to "know" if the smile has reached their eyes or not :raisebro:

That is a great question...I never really thought about the details, but its always been a gut feeling..maybe it is the eyes...not sure...I look down (size wise) on most of my partners so I see eyes and nose and mouth....some dance faces dont include a smile, but you can see them morph into it....you dont even have to be their partner, you can just see it on the sideline....I see it in leaders too..its not one partner or another...just individuals...

[Paou]

Well, there's yet another side to this that I haven't seen mentioned yet....

I went out a while ago, and danced with a lady who had not one iota of expression (neither in her face, or in her dance...) She was a good follower, but she just seemed to lack any kind of emotion at all....

Afterwards I saw her at the bar and said hi, and she turned out to be a lot more friendly than I thought, so I asked her what she thought of the dance, noting she didn't really get into it... and she told me that she'd watched me dancing earlier... and I looked good :shock: ... she was actually concentrating really hard on trying not to screw up because she was nervous... The next dance we'd both lightened up a lot, and was a hell of a lot more fun!

I've found that just being more playful with some 'snob' dancers instead of becoming worried about my own dancing (or grumpy at their 'lack of interest') often brings a smile to both faces...
:)

[Daburgerman]

... please DO NOT dance with me !!

*grumbles* ...

I need a T-Shirt "If you are a salsa snob please DO NOT dance with me" ... to prevent anyone (with salsa snob tendencies) from accepting the offer of a dance with me.

I personally don't mind dancing with anyone ... ability is not that important to me at all ... but synergy / a sense / feeling of connection with partner is ... infact that's fundimental for me.

I am happy for dance with beginners or followers that are more skilled / experienced than I am ... but what really pisses me off is dancing with someone better than me and they're looking completely bored and avoiding eye contact / not smiling / not really participating in the dance.

(as you may have guessed ... I danced with a girl like this tonight)

Do I expect too much !?

I really really really detest snobbery.

I also hate the fact that I felt oblidged to put on a brave face and finish the dance with her ... as soon as she was looking bored I just didn't want to be there ... would it have been wrong for me to stop mid song !?

"look ... we're clearly not enjoying this ... let's quit"

OR

"madam ... you'd be far better off dancing by yourself"

What should I have done !?

(soz if this sounds all bitter and twisted)

</bitter_and_twisted>

love,
Jamie

That's not an unfamiliar occurrence for me as well. And much more so when I was a beginner. If it's because of the lack of challenge, you could try leading some double spins, copas, etc. to catch her off guard. Someone mentioned that you could open for her to do some shines. If she still seems disinterested you might mention "am I boring you?" Regardless, I don't think you should stop mid-song. Songs are not that long so you can ride it out and not ask that person next time.

[wonderwoman]

From a lady's perspective, I do not enjoy dancing with beginners. I mean complete beginners. I wish I could give you a visual demonstration of what I'm talking about. On1, On2, whatever, just find a beat and stay on it. If you can't, I don't want to dance with you. If all you can do is a basic step and a simple underarm turn, of course I'm going to be bored.

I ran in to a video on youtube that a local deejay posted. Everyone on the floor looks amazing. Of course nobody but me will notice but I see myself occasionally in the background of this video, doing a forward/back basic and no thing else through the whole song. I look like a complete beginner when I'm not. That is why I hate to dance with beginners. It makes me look like a beginner to everyone else around.

[Ray Sison]

From a lady's perspective, I do not enjoy dancing with beginners. I mean complete beginners. I wish I could give you a visual demonstration of what I'm talking about. On1, On2, whatever, just find a beat and stay on it. If you can't, I don't want to dance with you. If all you can do is a basic step and a simple underarm turn, of course I'm going to be bored.

I ran in to a video on youtube that a local deejay posted. Everyone on the floor looks amazing. Of course nobody but me will notice but I see myself occasionally in the background of this video, doing a forward/back basic and no thing else through the whole song. I look like a complete beginner when I'm not. That is why I hate to dance with beginners. It makes me look like a beginner to everyone else around.

Yeah, that can be a challenge for the lady...

[megeliz]

As people have already mentioned, there are a lot of possible reasons for someone to look bored while dancing. For me, it's unfortunately not uncommon for me to forget to smile while dancing, and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm not enjoying the dance. A few possibilities:

a) My mind is somewhere else. We all have sh*t going on in our lives, and sometimes it's hard to leave it all off the dance floor.

b) I may be frustrated with my own dancing. I could be having an off night where it seems like I can't do anything right - can't follow, can't stay on time, can't stay in balance...and it has nothing to you.

c) I'm in 'concentration mode'. This could be for good or for bad reasons. Either you're a bad leader, and I have to concentrate on deciphering your lead and still make it look good, or you're a really good leader, and I'm concentrating on the complicated moves you're leading trying not to mess up on you...or I'm just concentrating on my own technique in general.

d) Worst case scenario - I am bored with you, you have bad breath, are doing something that irritates me, I'm just plain getting creepy vibes...and I'm not engaging with you because I don't want to encourage you to ask me to dance again. Of course, this backfires on me because when I don't look at you, I don't remember you when you do ask me again, and as soon as you take my hand, I recognize the connection, and I'm like 'oh crap! it's that guy again...'

How to tell a-c from d? How am I acting before and after the dance? If it's a-c, I'm smiling coming on and going off the dance floor, I'm thanking you sincerely, I may be apologising if it was b, I may give you a hug. If it's d, then I may have been trying to avert eye contact with you before you asked me, and I certainly am after the dance. I will probably mumble a thanks and rush away.

Your best line of defense? Start clowning. Seriously, make faces at me, do something goofy - making me laugh will instantly snap me out of my own little world of a-c, and maybe even redeem you if it's d. If clowning doesn't work, then it most definitely is d, and don't bother asking me again.

[nucat78]

LOL! I had a "friend" from my old studio once ask me in the middle of a waltz if we were done yet. I said, "Sure", and walked off the floor. She moved out of town shortly afterward, so it was unnecessary to waste any energy ignoring her. LOL!

I always laugh to myself when I think of that...

[Ray Sison]

As people have already mentioned, there are a lot of possible reasons for someone to look bored while dancing. For me, it's unfortunately not uncommon for me to forget to smile while dancing, and it doesn't necessarily mean I'm not enjoying the dance. A few possibilities:

a) My mind is somewhere else. We all have sh*t going on in our lives, and sometimes it's hard to leave it all off the dance floor.

b) I may be frustrated with my own dancing. I could be having an off night where it seems like I can't do anything right - can't follow, can't stay on time, can't stay in balance...and it has nothing to you.

c) I'm in 'concentration mode'. This could be for good or for bad reasons. Either you're a bad leader, and I have to concentrate on deciphering your lead and still make it look good, or you're a really good leader, and I'm concentrating on the complicated moves you're leading trying not to mess up on you...or I'm just concentrating on my own technique in general.

d) Worst case scenario - I am bored with you, you have bad breath, are doing something that irritates me, I'm just plain getting creepy vibes...and I'm not engaging with you because I don't want to encourage you to ask me to dance again. Of course, this backfires on me because when I don't look at you, I don't remember you when you do ask me again, and as soon as you take my hand, I recognize the connection, and I'm like 'oh crap! it's that guy again...'

How to tell a-c from d? How am I acting before and after the dance? If it's a-c, I'm smiling coming on and going off the dance floor, I'm thanking you sincerely, I may be apologising if it was b, I may give you a hug. If it's d, then I may have been trying to avert eye contact with you before you asked me, and I certainly am after the dance. I will probably mumble a thanks and rush away.

Your best line of defense? Start clowning. Seriously, make faces at me, do something goofy - making me laugh will instantly snap me out of my own little world of a-c, and maybe even redeem you if it's d. If clowning doesn't work, then it most definitely is d, and don't bother asking me again.

LOL! I had a "friend" from my old studio once ask me in the middle of a waltz if we were done yet. I said, "Sure", and walked off the floor. She moved out of town shortly afterward, so it was unnecessary to waste any energy ignoring her. LOL!

I always laugh to myself when I think of that...

megeliz and nucat, LOL... :cheers:

[wonderwoman]

I hate when I'm actually having an enjoyable dance with someone and they won't stop saying "You're not smiling, you hate dancing with me!!" well I do now!! lol

[Ray Sison]

I hate when I'm actually having an enjoyable dance with someone and they won't stop saying "You're not smiling, you hate dancing with me!!" well I do now!! lol

Funny! :cool:

[megeliz]

I hate when I'm actually having an enjoyable dance with someone and they won't stop saying "You're not smiling, you hate dancing with me!!" well I do now!! lol

Haha! Truth!

[Ray Sison]

Fun thread! :cool:

[megeliz]

Yea, I would say never to address a girl's lack of smiling in anything but a completely light-hearted manner. Comments like "you look bored" or "you seem nervous" is just really off-putting, and right now, I can't really place my finger exactly on why. NEVER suggest to end a dance early, you will be black-balled as the jerk that left me in the middle of a song. It doesn't matter if I didn't really want to be dancing with you anyways, I will be sure to point you out to all my friends and tell them about how you wouldn't even finish a song with me, and now, unless they REALLY like to dance with you, they will NOT accept your offer.

[flashdance]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Now available - Salsa Snob Tee shirt! You too can now be a Salsa Snob...

http://shop.cafepress.co.uk/salsa-snob

:cool:

[wonderwoman]

I think I just get an intense look when I'm really enjoying a dance, especially if my partner is the same way. If my partner smiles and is silly I will be too. If I don't know him and he tells me to smile I probably will get annoyed.

[jennyisdancing]

LOL! I had a "friend" from my old studio once ask me in the middle of a waltz if we were done yet. I said, "Sure", and walked off the floor. She moved out of town shortly afterward, so it was unnecessary to waste any energy ignoring her. LOL!

I always laugh to myself when I think of that...

Why on earth would she ask that to begin with? You didn't give much detail, so is there a remote possibility that she doesn't know much about music, and thought the song was over? Okay, probably not. :rolleyes:

And as far as this is concerned:

I ran in to a video on youtube that a local deejay posted. Everyone on the floor looks amazing. Of course nobody but me will notice but I see myself occasionally in the background of this video, doing a forward/back basic and no thing else through the whole song. I look like a complete beginner when I'm not. That is why I hate to dance with beginners. It makes me look like a beginner to everyone else around.

Everyone else who? Doesn't your own dance community already know who you are, and what your skills are? They will recognize it's the leader who is the beginner, not you. They will know that you are required to do whatever he leads, and they will see and appreciate that you are being a gracious partner. Also, an advanced follower will still look advanced even while doing basic moves, because of her beautiful technique, lines and styling.

If you have some reason to want to show off your dancing to people outside your own dance community, it's not like one youtube video really matters anyway. You can find an advanced leader, take your own video, and put it out there.

[Ray Sison]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Now available - Salsa Snob Tee shirt! You too can now be a Salsa Snob...

http://shop.cafepress.co.uk/salsa-snob

:cool:

I love it, Flash!