Beginner leads and experienced follows

[blue]

I guess most of us agree that a beginner follower benefit a lot from dancing with skilled leaders every now and then. Is the opposite also true - do a beginner leader benefit from dancing with skilled followers?

I know we had this discussion before, but not in tango settings.

I read a discussion on an email list, where two women had opposit opinions on the matter. Both of them teach. (How strange that it was the women who discussed this matter, not the men!) One said that beginner leaders actually need beginner followers, because skilled followers follow too smoothly - including many little signals that the leaders do not know that they acually give. The other said that no, beginner leaders benefit a lot from dancing with advanced followers. Since the men have more to learn anyhow, and since there are too few of them and meny women who already dance would like a dance partner, she was speculating in having an extra beginner course de luxe for men - where they were to dance only with followers who had been dancing for some time. The follower's interest in the business would be the abiliy to snatch a talented beginner and train him - oh well, plus maybe some discount on something else I guess.

I am not sure she will actually ever try the idea. But what do you think, would the average beginner leader learn faster with advanced followers than with other newbies? Is there a difference between talanted beginners and not so talanted beginners in this respect?

[ReneeJoan]

Yes, I believe it helps beginning "leaders" to dance with more experienced "followers." You pair up too beginners in a class and it's just a recipe for frustration. "You're not doing the step right." "You're not leading it right." "You're off-balance." "You're pulling me." The truth is, neither one of them is doing it right, and they're both doing so much wrong, it's hard to know where to start to straighten them out. Usually, the best place to begin is to split them up and I'll take the guy and Felix will take the woman. After a few minutes, they BOTH can feel how the movement is supposed to feel like, how it's supposed to flow, how the weight is suppposed to shift, what he has to say to get me to do such and such, what signals I'm looking for. Then, when we put them back together, it goes much better -- until the next step.

Often, I get asked to dance by beginners, and they are apologizing all over themselves for their lack of ability. I always tell them it's okay, I'm very good with beginners. And I am. And suddenly, they're like, "Hey, I can actually DANCE with you. And you're so good. Maybe this is something I can learn to do after all." That boost in their confidence is so great to see. It means they won't give up, they'll keep studying, keep learning, because they know this is something they CAN do. I like that. It's like a little gift I can give people in return for all the people who patiently danced with me while I was learning.

Whenever you dance with someone who's much more experienced and skilled than you, man or woman, you will be able to dance your best. Do that enough, and your dancing WILL improve. So, yes, I absolutely think it helps "leaders" to dance with better followers. It softens their "lead." They learn that they don't HAVE to jerk their partners around to get them to do something, don't have to clutch them to keep them from running away, or hang on them to maintain their balance. Just a thought, and I go. A simple shift of weight, a light caressing touch, and I'll do whatever I'm asked. It's a joy to be able to give that gift to a man.

Be bold, men, and ask those advanced ladies. The vast majority will accept and it'll help you improve. If they refuse to dance with a beginner, all I can say is they must have AWFULLY short memories.

Renee

[honeydragon]

I agree. Beginner "leads" definitely benefit by dancing with more experienced "follows", whether it be in a classroom setting or on the real dance floor. The experienced follow knows that this is a long-term investment :-) meaning that if this lead enjoys the dance, this means more leads for all of the follows in the future. -- Just half joking there, but personally speaking, in my AT class, there's around 16-20 women and 4 men that show up on a regular basis. The women in class are started to learn how to lead now.

Like Renee said. Beginners always need the attention and encouragement from the more experienced and advanced dancers to help bring up their level of confidence and love the dance even more.

An experienced follower and an advanced follower can mean 2 different things. An experienced follower, knows how to calm down a nervous first timer and beginners, knows how to correct gently and has lots of patience. I hate to bring this up too, but an experienced follower also knows if this 'potential lead' really wants to dance or if he is just a perv looking for a cheap thrill. A good experienced follower can convert the perv.

About 6 months after I starting learning AT, I was having a wonderful time and we had a new beginner session starting up to hopefully get more leads into our class. I remember one guy that I paired up with, he had this little smile/smirk on his face and his first comment was: "I can't wait to get you into close-position." Then we got in to close-position and I just whispered, "I guess I should tell you that I was born a man." He jumped away, and I just laughed, and he realised that it was a joke. We are now good friends and he stuck with the class and he is very serious about AT now.

[newbie]

I'd say it's useful for the beginning leaders when the follower is really good, not just a bit more advanced. I had some bad experiences with women with 4-5 years of A.T, who would ignore my lead and go by themselves into leans, saludos, low boleos, and even would take charge of the lead, i.e they would lead me. From an onlooker's point of view it looked great but for me it was horrible, I felt I was only a faire-valoir.

As for the "De Luxe" classes, we have in our class one woman who has attended the whole 4-year cycle of A.T lessons given by our teachers and is now doing the cycle again, from the beginning, as a leader. When there is a shortage of women she's only too happy to "help" by playing the follower's role again. Could be nice, but the poor leaders who have to lead her are suffocated by an endless flow of advices, orders, and corrections. It's stressful, somehow I prefer to sit than being with her.

Even with teachers it can be awful when (probably wanting to help) they don't really follow but execute whole sequences in auto-pilot mode.

On the opposite I also know a couple of teachers who will never "help" the leader; if there is no lead they won't move, they'll just wait. I like this.
I've also danced twice with really experienced followers ( portenas) and it was useful because they actually followed what I was leading, and made their nice additional embellishments only at times when it was not disturbing for me.

[blue]

in my AT class, there's around 16-20 women and 4 men that show up on a regular basis.

Ugh. That was some unbalance... (btw, welcome to DF! :) )

You pair up too beginners in a class and it's just a recipe for frustration. "You're not doing the step right." "You're not leading it right." "You're off-balance." "You're pulling me." The truth is, neither one of them is doing it right, and they're both doing so much wrong, it's hard to know where to start to straighten them out.
I can related to that... still there is where most people have to start, unless they want to pay for private lessons. Or possible, the de luxe version of classes from the start... for both roles. In aikido, many dojos (schools) take beginners straight into the normal class... and while it can be kind of intimidating, the beginners get a feeling for what it is all about a lot quicker this way. I takes some patience from the rest of the crowd, though, and some energy to spend on the beginners. As many beginners come and go, it is easily understood that this way of recieving beginners can be exhausting in the long run.

Aikido often have as a part of the culture that you should help your juniors, and it is stressed that you learn a lot from it yourself. While that is true, and this sprit motivates people to train with the beginners, it often ends up with people overteaching... pretty much like newbie describes. When the system works, it is great though. I have yet to see dance environments with this kind of spirit - not that it exists everywhere in aikido either. Far from it!

As for the "De Luxe" classes, we have in our class one woman who has attended the whole 4-year cycle of A.T lessons given by our teachers and is now doing the cycle again, from the beginning, as a leader. When there is a shortage of women she's only too happy to "help" by playing the follower's role again. Could be nice, but the poor leaders who have to lead her are suffocated by an endless flow of advices, orders, and corrections. It's stressful, somehow I prefer to sit than being with her.
That sounds more like the lady in question does not understand her role - and I don't mean the dance role here (lead/follow) but her role as a student in class. Actually one of the guys I had most difficult to dance with in beginner's AT class was the most experienced leader in class, who they had asked to come help out the shortage of leaders... because he like gave me orders what to do (including getting into closer embrace. Ugh). Maybe this is one good thing about people doing just one role in dancing - they don't give me advice all the time since those I dance with generally don't know how to follow. :twisted:

[ReneeJoan]

"A little learning is a dangerous thing . . . ." Yeah, it is really tempting to "play the expert." You learn a little bit, get a little skill, and suddenly, you're showing off, telling the newbies all the inner secrets of the 34th degree of knowledge. Forgiveable (up to a point), I suppose, because people are really just trying to share their passion with a new convert. I've fallen into that trap too, until one day my teacher caught me at it, and gave me one of the sharpest reprimands I've ever heard fall from his kind, patient, gentle tongue. I couldn't have felt worse if he'd taken out a whip and thrashed me with it. Since then, I've tried to can it.

And just to show you all what a compleat hypocrit I can be, probably the ONE thing a guy can do that is sure to piss me off on the dance floor is to appoint himself my teacher. But since I don't like it when men do that to me, I try to be very conscious of that and keep my mouth shut, and just do my basics as good as I can and help my partner in that silent way. Sometimes they come out and ask me, and then I figure it's okay to say something. Otherwise, I really try to not "show off" and "skylark" by trotting out my "superior" knowledge.

Besides. Every so often, I get a much needed lesson in humility. Last night, dancing with the Guest Instructor, Maximiliano, I was right back at square one. All my improvement, all my hard work since the last time he was visiting here in LA -- out the window. Humiliating to say the least. But I just let it go, accepted the fact that I was still VERY much a baby, and tried to learn something, instead of trying to impress him by showing off. Gosh. Am I EVER going to get it right?

[Sagitta]

Showing off!!! :o

All I really care about is one thing. Doing my best to make sure I give my partner the best possible time and trying in this process to show my partner the transforming nature of connected dancing.

I'm a mere beginner and give advice. :oops: Relax. Feel. Don't worry about steps, firmness of grasp etc etc. If you try to connect to your partner almost everything else is immaterial in my opinion. I'll take connection with a person who cannot do one step of salsa anyday vs a salsera who can do anything I give her but no connection.

[bordertangoman]

I'm gonna sit on the fence on this one.

I remember my first dance as a beginner with an experienced follower. It was like getting into a sportscar when you've learnt to drive on a tractor. So smooooooooooth. ( later I discovered she was one of those lucky people who have naturally good balance & posture.)

Did I learn anything? Only that it could be amazing. I was quite happy learning with my peers and getting coaching from the teachers.

[Lockstep]

All I can say is that from the beginning I've been dancing a lot with a latin girl who already knew instinctively most of the moves, and was just in the class to get an understanding of what she was actually doing. For all intents and purposes, she's very advanced, and in my personal experience it has helped me out a *lot*. it allows the leader, I think, more freedom in practicing beyond the basics, which would be the limit while dancing with another beginner. Now, I can actually try new things we haven't technically been taught yet, develop a bit of own style etc. And yeah, the fact that she knows how it ought to feel helps as well, with the regular moves

[Patapouf]

I think a beginner leader can definitely benefit from dancing with an experienced follower, that is, providing that the follower does not appoint herself his teacher and start telling him what to do, correcting him, teaching extra stuffs the teacher is not teaching. I agree with blue and newbie that this can make things worst.

I sometimes help out at my instructor's beginning lesson, I will do exactly what the leader's leading and seldom say much, unless I was asked if he was doing it correct, or how it felt. I never criticize them and never correct them too much other than obvious mistakes in foot patterns and stuffs like that. After all, it is not my job to teach, and of course the bigger question is, am I good enough to teach. I think the leaders in the class do enjoy dancing with me as they always ask for me. So from their point of view, I think they do enjoy and benefit from dancing with a more experienced follow.

[randomMysh]

i think there are really two separate situations here, with two appropriate courses of action. there's social dancing and there is class.
i think unsolicited advice is practically never ok at a social dance. if he's horrible, get through the song and let him learn in class. early on i tried dishing out advice at dances and it was inevitably bad. no one can absorb new information in that setting, and that's not what people are there for. so i keep my mouth shut and smile :)
class is a different story. if something is glaringly wrong and the teacher is gonna be busy for a while, or if technique isn't the focus of the class, i might ask my partner if it's ok for me to make a suggestion. if he says yes, i'll pick ONE thing to say that i think is the most important (usually it's to relax the shoulders) and compliment the hell out of him if he's even remotely following my suggestion. i've had those know-it-alls as class partners before, and yeah, after about the fifth "suggestion" you just wanna punch him. :oops:
on the other hand, when i was one of the practice leaders for my college dance team, i would purposefully pick the cockiest beginner leads and make them slooooowly dance me through something like a rumba underarm turn and analyze exactly what they're trying to lead and what they're leading in reality. and i mean every single step. usually they were amazed at what they were *actually* leading! :P i would never do that to someone who's just starting out and is obviously intimidated as it is.
bottom line, i think that yes, beginner leads benefit from dancing with more experienced follows, but only if the follow tailors her response to both the lead and the situation. really, the same thing i'd expect from an experienced lead dancing with a newbie follow.

[new-ish]

I remember my first dance as a beginner with an experienced follower. It was like getting into a sportscar when you've learnt to drive on a tractor.

I think it's more like "student driver in a Ferrari" you just know it's a real waste. Experienced followers can usually interpret beginner attempts at leading better than most, so you also don't really learn the art of leading with the experienced follower.

For new leads I think:

1. Develop a rock (like Gibralter) solid basic. I think group classes are good for this.

2. Private lessons. Expensive, but if you are serious about dancing, there is no other way to learn to lead.

3. Learn four or five basic moves. Get these as solid as your basic.

4. DO NOT GIVE UP. Some day you will become a dancer and that is worth whatever it takes to get there.

[madmaximus]

Leading and following are two very different skills, and incongruent enough to make a good generality. (I also think that the notion of lead/follow needs to be outgrown by a dancer in order to become really proficient in partner dance--but that discussion is for another day).

However... this was just too yummy a question to leave alone...:)
so IMO--

While it is beneficial for a lead to dance with an advanced follow, it will slow down the rate of learning.

It is, without a doubt, exhilarating to dance with an advanced follow. It makes a lead realize how a movement can evolve. It is intoxicatingly good for the ego (and causes some amount of hubris as some have described).

But it also misrepresents to the lead the true level of his skills and how effective his movement or capability is. Because oftentimes, the follower accomodates for his mistakes. This misapprehension by the lead becomes all too painfully apparent when dancing with a follower with the same level (or lower) skill. The frustration often manifests itself by yanking and pushing the poor follower around. (Oh yes, we've all been guilty of this at one point or another--at least I have).

Someone already mentioned that this (thread or) question should also be taken in its context (class or social dance). I would add a third: practice. I think one should learn to dance in a class (group or solo). Practice is where one should review--and improve one's skills. And social dancing is where one reaps the benefits of all that learning. The impact of dancing with an advanced follow will vary depending on any one of these situations.

An advanced lead can guide the beginner follow through a movement with more ease than when the skill levels are reversed. But inevitably, the difficulty for the beginning lead is in the act of making the decision (of what move or figure to do) and guiding the follow by leading correctly. This is a skill that must be honed by giving a follower a reasonably accurate picture of what to do. In this regard, a follower at the same level will be more beneficial to the beginning lead. A sympathetic advanced follower--in the role of a partner and NOT a teacher--will usually only serve to blur the lead's understanding of that picture.

A more advanced follow will be able to respond with accuracy to a fuzzy lead, but a beginning follow will need an accurate lead to respond accurately.

madmaximus

[blue]

A more advanced follow will be able to respond with accuracy to a fuzzy lead, but a beginning follow will need an accurate lead to respond accurately.

Where does this come in for the three sets: class, practice and social dancing (milonga)?

Shouldn't the advanced follow dancing with a newbie during a milonga compensate for mistakes a little bit - but not in class, and not during practice?

[delamusica]

But inevitably, the difficulty for the beginning lead is in the act of making the decision (of what move or figure to do) and guiding the follow by leading correctly. This is a skill that must be honed by giving a follower a reasonably accurate picture of what to do. In this regard, a follower at the same level will be more beneficial to the beginning lead. A sympathetic advanced follower--in the role of a partner and NOT a teacher--will usually only serve to blur the lead's understanding of that picture.

Not always true. If the follower is only doing what she knows the lead is trying to do, then yes. But many beginning leads make a lot of extraneous movements that can feel like the beginnings of leads. A good follower will react to them, thereby making the newbie leader aware of the extra signals he was giving.

[madmaximus]

Not always true. If the follower is only doing what she knows the lead is trying to do, then yes. But many beginning leads make a lot of extraneous movements that can feel like the beginnings of leads. A good follower will react to them, thereby making the newbie leader aware of the extra signals he was giving.
I'll grant you that the risk of generalities are in the exceptions.

So, without any verbal communication, which follower would help the lead realize he's not leading something correctly? Which one will provide better non-verbal feedback to the newbie leader? 1) A good follower who follows correctly inspite of all the extra signals?

2) A newbie follower who keeps following the wrong signals (hence, does the wrong figure), until given the one correct lead (where the newbie has learned to remove all the extra signals) that leaves her no choice but to do the correct figure?
Except for the gifted few, we learn dance through trial-and-error. Without good feedback that we're doing something wrong (or for that matter, right) it is hard to learn what the correct way of doing things is.


madmaximus

[madmaximus]

A more advanced follow will be able to respond with accuracy to a fuzzy lead, but a beginning follow will need an accurate lead to respond accurately.

Where does this come in for the three sets: class, practice and social dancing (milonga)?

Shouldn't the advanced follow dancing with a newbie during a milonga compensate for mistakes a little bit - but not in class, and not during practice?

IMO blue, it goes to intention. Class and practice are learning environments. The intention of going to those venues is to learn. To get feedback.

On the other hand, social dancing, milongas (and the like), and even competition dancing are environments where one would (normally) go to enjoy the fruits of one's dancing labors.

I also think that in any social (dance) situation, a follower should do her best (yes, even compensate) in following a newbie's fuzzy lead. Because the intention here is not to teach, it is to enjoy the dance (or the partner, or the event, and so on...)

The short answer to all this really is: *it all depends.* A general answer to your thread question is risky because learning is highly subjective. Add the variables of personality, ego, and relative (dance) intelligence/skills, and you can appreciate that you will get a variety of answers.

My point really addresses just one facet of learning dance with a partner--the area of non-verbal communication where feedback is garnered from what the follow executes as a result of a newbie's lead.

The best way--at least for me anyway-- to answer your question is to presume certain general situations and address those. For instance, in terms of verbal feedback, obviously a more advanced follow will always be beneficial. But then that follow takes on the role of a teacher--instead of a partner. And so on and so forth...

:)


madmaximus

[blue]

The short answer to all this really is: *it all depends.* A general answer to your thread question is risky because learning is highly subjective. Add the variables of personality, ego, and relative (dance) intelligence/skills, and you can appreciate that you will get a variety of answers.
Oh yes, I don't expect definite answers...

One thought I heard was that the talented beginner leader, who already has good control over his body from sports or other kinds of dances, would be the one that benefitted from dancing with experienced followers from the start.

[madmaximus]

One thought I heard was that the talented beginner leader, who already has good control over his body from sports or other kinds of dances, would be the one that benefitted from dancing with experienced followers from the start.
I once knew a gentleman--teenager when I knew him--who had so much dance talent that he was dancing (capably) with a lady ranked in the top 40 nationally. In TWO POINT FIVE years! :shock: Phenomenal guy. I showed him a series of figures ONCE. And he was dancing it like he'd been dancing it for years.

This guy understood where his foot should land, how his body stood, and how he should hold his head--simply by watching a dance video of a champion dance master.

Dancing with a much much more advanced follower, he was able to raise his level of dancing simply by reacting to how the lady moved her body.

I knew him when he was 16-17. The tragic part was that he died in a car accident about three years later. :cry:

madmaximus

[Sagitta]

One thought I heard was that the talented beginner leader, who already has good control over his body from sports or other kinds of dances, would be the one that benefitted from dancing with experienced followers from the start.
I once knew a gentleman--teenager when I knew him--who had so much dance talent that he was dancing (capably) with a lady ranked in the top 40 nationally. In TWO POINT FIVE years! :shock: Phenomenal guy. I showed him a series of figures ONCE. And he was dancing it like he'd been dancing it for years.

This guy understood where his foot should land, how his body stood, and how he should hold his head--simply by watching a dance video of a champion dance master.

Dancing with a much much more advanced follower, he was able to raise his level of dancing simply by reacting to how the lady moved her body.

I knew him when he was 16-17. The tragic part was that he died in a car accident about three years later. :cry:

madmaximus
So sad. :( Reminds me to live each day to the fullest.

[blue]

While it is beneficial for a lead to dance with an advanced follow, it will slow down the rate of learning.

It is, without a doubt, exhilarating to dance with an advanced follow. It makes a lead realize how a movement can evolve. It is intoxicatingly good for the ego (and causes some amount of hubris as some have described).

But it also misrepresents to the lead the true level of his skills and how effective his movement or capability is. Because oftentimes, the follower accomodates for his mistakes. This misapprehension by the lead becomes all too painfully apparent when dancing with a follower with the same level (or lower) skill.
I think I have seen this. A talanted beginner in my class, who after dancing with some very skilled ladies suddenly started to expect me to go into the cross when I felt no reason at all to go into the cross. I got somewhat angry. He never did this before - who ruined his conception of what the dance is? :shock: I refused to step into the cross by myself. He though he "knew how it should be" now, and I "should" step into the cross at this point. Well well...

...being a beginner is always kind of painful, I guess.

*note to self: when I get more advanced, never ever compensate for beginner leader's faulty lead.*

[madmaximus]

I think I have seen this. A talanted beginner in my class, who after dancing with some very skilled ladies suddenly started to expect me to go into the cross when I felt no reason at all to go into the cross. I got somewhat angry. He never did this before - who ruined his conception of what the dance is? :shock: I refused to step into the cross by myself. He though he "knew how it should be" now, and I "should" step into the cross at this point. Well well...

[nodding head]
Yes blue, this was the situation I was talking about. Sad, but it can quickly erupt into a full-blown misunderstanding.

madmaximus

[tangombre]

I think I have seen this. A talanted beginner in my class, who after dancing with some very skilled ladies suddenly started to expect me to go into the cross when I felt no reason at all to go into the cross. I got somewhat angry. He never did this before - who ruined his conception of what the dance is? :shock: I refused to step into the cross by myself. He though he "knew how it should be" now, and I "should" step into the cross at this point. Well well...

[nodding head]
Yes blue, this was the situation I was talking about. Sad, but it can quickly erupt into a full-blown misunderstanding.

madmaximus



Well... I remember my days as an extreme beginner quite well - very exciting they were ;-)

I did dance with a few much more experienced followers at the time -- who were very generally very encouraging - for example being understanding of my nervous system's then complete refusal to dance milonga - and not too snooty to ask me again after I thought I completely screwed up.

I remember it mainly as being very stressful, as my experience (still) is that truly more advanced followers will be extremely good at making sense of body noise, picking up the lead at the start of the hesitation, not at the end - which sometimes made me very confused, or better lead to me allowing myself to go in directions I hadn't gone before. Therefore it is very interesting; it shows a leader what is possible... It's also very nice to dance with more experienced followers simply because they can and will participate more in the dance, without necessarily taking over.

I love it when followers contribute ideas, suggest openings - which will generally only happen with people who have enough experience and technical ability to do so (keep their own balance, pivot nicely,...). I hate it when they just take over and do things because they feel like it - which happens more frequently with people who aren't actually that experienced - as it will generally cost you the balance and communication in the couple. Fancy boleos where there wasn't possibly a lead to it, the classical crossing when not lead.... I love it though when some adornos come in, followers take their time to listen to the music and do something with it in the "pauses" in the dance...

Anyway - I simply think that dancing with someone who is a lot more experienced gives one a glimpse of what is possible, but you have to be open for it as a leader, and listen to what the followers' body/moves tell you... At the same time the followers need to be respectful of the leader's incompleteness, participate but not dominate (never a nice balance either way - I try to do the same when I now dance with beginners, not dominate the dance, allow them to express what they can express in the limited tango vocabulary they have...)

[madmaximus]

. . . Anyway - I simply think that dancing with someone who is a lot more experienced gives one a glimpse of what is possible, but you have to be open for it as a leader, and listen to what the followers' body/moves tell you... At the same time the followers need to be respectful of the leader's incompleteness, participate but not dominate (never a nice balance either way - I try to do the same when I now dance with beginners, not dominate the dance, allow them to express what they can express in the limited tango vocabulary they have...)

Well said tangombre!


madmaximus

[ReneeJoan]

Regarding what was said above about the cruzada (cross) step, it appears that there is a running debate among teachers and professionals, both in and out of Argentina as to the true nature of the cruzada. Is it an inherent and integral part of the tango, and therefore something that the woman should simply do on her own, automatically, or is it a deliberately chosen, creative step on the part of the man, and therefore should only be executed by the woman when she is specifically asked (lead) to do so? There is a great deal of (passionate) debate on this issue, and the question has not been resolved definitively. There are persuasive arguments on both sides of the issue.

Which leaves us amateur dancers kind of in a quandry, as you have no way of knowing which way your partner has been taught. I, myself, am a perfect example of this. I tend to subscribe to the thesis that I should not take the cruzada unless my partner specifically asks me to. However, I tend to forget a lot, especially if I am not paying close enough attention to my partner's body, and then I will automatically take the cross without even thinking. This becomes really ridiculous when I'm dancing foxtrot, as the "feel" of foxtrot is so similar to tango that I will often cross without thinking, and then I'm off rhythm and out of step with my partner. So if the cruzada is that deeply ingrained, you can imagine what happens when I get with a partner who is marching along and does NOT ask for the cross, and I do it anyway. I get kicked a lot as a result, which I guess is the inevitable price of trying to dance on auto-pilot instead of being totally focused and aware of my partner like I'm supposed to be.

The only answer I have found is to be as sensitive and responsive and tuned in to my partner's body and movements as possible, and stay alert for the subtle signals that warn that he is either a) asking me to take the cross, or b) expecting me to take the cross, or c) NOT asking for or expecting the cross. I can do this if I'm really focused and paying attention, but it takes an enormous level of mental discipline, which is very tiring, and sometimes my attention wavers -- and there goes another pair of stockings.

Renee

[blue]

ReneeJoan, very interesting.

If I cross without the leader having intended me to - how is he supposed to know? In beginner's class it happened that I was led into the cross and then the leader started leading simple weight changes, from one foot to another when standing still - and I can think of more comfortable positions to do this from, than in the cruzada. I feel, please please don't lead simple weight changes when I am in the cruzada...

If I got there by myself, how is the lead supposed to know I did? :?:

[madmaximus]

Interesting indeed...

These are the very reasons I abandoned the concept of lead and follow a long time ago.

As we advance in our dancing, I think we should start to recognize that when we dance with a partner we are BOTH creating expression. To relegate the decision-making solely to the lead, I think, is to deny the partnership the possible contribution of the follower in the creation of that expression.

madmaximus

[blue]

As we advance in our dancing, I think we should start to recognize that when we dance with a partner we are BOTH creating expression. To relegate the decision-making solely to the lead, I think, is to deny the partnership the possible contribution of the follower in the creation of that expression.
This does indeed sound like very advanced dancing. Most of us mortals have to start somewhere, you know... :oops:

[madmaximus]

As we advance in our dancing, I think we should start to recognize that when we dance with a partner we are BOTH creating expression. To relegate the decision-making solely to the lead, I think, is to deny the partnership the possible contribution of the follower in the creation of that expression.
This does indeed sound like very advanced dancing. Most of us mortals have to start somewhere, you know... :oops:

I'm part of that mortaldom too, blue. We all aspire to what we can become. :)

[ Edit] Please note that I am not making a judgment. This is not to say that the lead and follow concept is necessarily bad. I simply see it as a stepping stone to another perspective of dancing. [End Edit]

I share these ideas here in the hope that others may see what I have glimpsed to be possible--as others have shown me.

m

[bordertangoman]

Regarding what was said above about the cruzada (cross) step.......

Renee

My teachers didn't teach the cross until we had reached a good level of competence; for they explained it is not a beginner's step.
1. It requires a lead that transfers the followers weight across her own axis.

2. Once the foot is crossed there is also a very small lead for the weight to go onto that foot (follower's left in the 8CB)

3. we had lots of practice leading and not leading the cross from the middle of the preceding step; so the follower always went with what she felt as she had no way of knowing which it was to be.

4. There is also a rebound step where the follower's weight is kept on her right leg then she is led into a forward step to the man's left.

5. Although the cruzada, because it is mostly taught in the 8CB, happens left over right; it can also happen right over left and going forward; furthermore it can come out of a side step - i think becuase it always begins when the woman has her legs apart.

[ReneeJoan]

Dear Madmaximus:

I, too, do not subscribe to the concept of "leading" or "following." I use these terms on this discussion board for simplicity and clarity, because that's how everyone else refers to them, but I don't believe in it myself.

As my teacher put it, "leading and following implies dominance and submission," which he says has no place in dancing or in life. He prefers to teach "guiding" or "inviting" and "response," and as you said, BOTH partners are free to invite the other to respond, so that it becomes a balanced partnership, with two people creating something beautiful together, instead of one person giving orders and the other blindly obeying.

Of course, this is much harder. It requires a higher level of connection, of listening, and responsiveness. It requires awareness and thinking. But my best dances have been with partners who gently invite me to do something, and I respond, and counter with an invitation of my own, rather than him insisting on dictating what we do, he responds to my invitation, then issues a new invitation. It becomes a conversation, rather than a speech, with each partner listening and responding to the other. It opens the door to so much creativity.

A lot of men have discovered to their chagrin that I do not follow, and if a guy insists on leading, he'll find I can get pretty mule-y and uncooperative, and that I am anything but a dishrag dancer. Those dances usually end with me being as mad at him for being a pig, as he is with me for being a stubborn mule. But if an man asks me nicely, I can be one of the most responsive, tender partners he could ask for.

Renee

[bordertangoman]

Dear Madmaximus:

I, too, do not subscribe to the concept of "leading" or "following." I use these terms on this discussion board for simplicity and clarity, because that's how everyone else refers to them, but I don't believe in it myself.

As my teacher put it, "leading and following implies dominance and submission," which he says has no place in dancing or in life. He prefers to teach "guiding" or "inviting" and "response," and as you said, BOTH partners are free to invite the other to respond, so that it becomes a balanced partnership, with two people creating something beautiful together, instead of one person giving orders and the other blindly obeying.

Of course, this is much harder. It requires a higher level of connection, of listening, and responsiveness. It requires awareness and thinking. But my best dances have been with partners who gently invite me to do something, and I respond, and counter with an invitation of my own, rather than him insisting on dictating what we do, he responds to my invitation, then issues a new invitation. It becomes a conversation, rather than a speech, with each partner listening and responding to the other. It opens the door to so much creativity.

A lot of men have discovered to their chagrin that I do not follow, and if a guy insists on leading, he'll find I can get pretty mule-y and uncooperative, and that I am anything but a dishrag dancer. Those dances usually end with me being as mad at him for being a pig, as he is with me for being a stubborn mule. But if an man asks me nicely, I can be one of the most responsive, tender partners he could ask for.

Renee

I know I may be skating on thin ice here but here goes anyway:

I do agree that it is a conversation (or can be with the right person), and that with the reality that each move is an invitation but nonethless the dance is very much about masculine and feminine roles, and awareness of the other person and how they are responding:

I have differing experiences of how can this be:
Ms S, a good friend of mine is a terrible tease ( she teaches and is used to leading) and will take over completley, given half a chance, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't; so it becomes a playful tug of war.

Ms M loves adornos, decorations, ganchos; so if the music is right and there's space I give her the space for her to add in her fancy footwork. As a leader I have to feel that this is happening since I cannot see her feet.

Ms A is one of my favourite dancers, because our dancing is so synergistic, that it feels like flying; we do respond to each other and it takes off. She inspires me and I inspire her. We do things that no-one has ever taught us they just happen

Ms C has the finest craftsmanship of any social dancer I know; she glides like a swan; knows how to hang an invitation until she's ready then springs like a cat.

That is for me the essence of tango; is finding out how the other person will respond., I hate the mechanicals who recognise the lead for an ocho and they're gone totally out of touch until the ocho is completed

[newbie]

...Ms S, a good friend of mine is a terrible tease ( she teaches and is used to leading) and will take over completley, given half a chance, and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't; so it becomes a playful tug of war.

Ms M loves adornos, decorations, ganchos; so if the music is right and there's space I give her the space for her to add in her fancy footwork. As a leader I have to feel that this is happening since I cannot see her feet.

Ms A is one of my favourite dancers, because our dancing is so synergistic, that it feels like flying; we do respond to each other and it takes off. She inspires me and I inspire her. We do things that no-one has ever taught us they just happen

Ms C has the finest craftsmanship of any social dancer I know; she glides like a swan; knows how to hang an invitation until she's ready then springs like a cat...

You have nice partners indeed. I bet it's the reward for your own skills. Mine are somewhat different:

Miss N. always keeps her arms fully extended, forbidding any change of distance, making our tango (especially leans) look really weird and delaying her reaction time. When given the opportunity for adornments, she never does any.

Ms A.M is an advanced follower, more than 8 years of A.T and has attended tons of classes. Yet dancing with her is torture, as she likes the apilado way and I hate it. And boy, is she heavy! She does a lot of unexpected adornos, always putting me off balance as she's heavier than me. All the problems come from me of course, when given a strong partner (I mean A.T-skill plus physical strength) it looks great.

Miss T. is young, thin, tall, and has no balance. I must lead her with care as she overreacts in her following, and soon gets excited. When I'm in playful mood, our tango is frenzy (not the controlled frenzy you see in A.T videos) Sometimes she's stubborn, wants to lead her own stuff (typically a counter-barrida after my barrida) and insists trying to do it even if I clearly disagree, and we struggle and I win (Hey, who is the leader?). More than once, we fell on the dance floor.

Miss M. is sort of the neutral type, and will gladly "just follow". She's patient with my mistakes and very careful with my male ego when she's suggesting a correction. But she' always pushing forward, not having understood yet that in many A.T elements she should be on her axis; this makes any giro very difficult, and enrosques almost impossible.

[bordertangoman]

Miss N. always keeps her arms fully extended, forbidding any change of distance, making our tango (especially leans) look really weird and delaying her reaction time. When given the opportunity for adornments, she never does any.

Ms A.M is an advanced follower, more than 8 years of A.T and has attended tons of classes. Yet dancing with her is torture, as she likes the apilado way and I hate it. And boy, is she heavy! She does a lot of unexpected adornos, always putting me off balance as she's heavier than me. All the problems come from me of course, when given a strong partner (I mean A.T-skill plus physical strength) it looks great.

Miss T. is young, thin, tall, and has no balance. I must lead her with care as she overreacts in her following, and soon gets excited. When I'm in playful mood, our tango is frenzy (not the controlled frenzy you see in A.T videos) Sometimes she's stubborn, wants to lead her own stuff (typically a counter-barrida after my barrida) and insists trying to do it even if I clearly disagree, and we struggle and I win (Hey, who is the leader?). More than once, we fell on the dance floor.

Miss M. is sort of the neutral type, and will gladly "just follow". She's patient with my mistakes and very careful with my male ego when she's suggesting a correction. But she' always pushing forward, not having understood yet that in many A.T elements she should be on her axis; this makes any giro very difficult, and enrosques almost impossible.

This gives me the vision of how Dr Seuss would draw a tango salon! especially Mis T and Miss A. M. Could you rewrite your post in rhyme?

[newbie]

...Could you rewrite your post in rhyme?

Ms A.M, have to confess,
as a follow is quite advanced,
on many floors she has danced
and attended tons of classes.

Yet dancing with her for me is torture,
as she dances nothing but apilado way
and this style I hate, to her dismay
our tango alas has no future..

And boy, is she heavy!
Her surprise moves put me off balance
Too much adornment, in one single dance
Does not suit the feeble me


Miss T. is young, and tall, and thin
She dances with a playful mind
Jumps, runs, like a wild hind,
But her balance is not akin

And submissive she's surely not
We struggle, kick and fight a lot
When I push shes pushes more
And soon we fall on the wooden floor

[bordertangoman]

WONDERFUL!!

:D :D :D

[madmaximus]

THAT is funny newbie!!! :D

Well done!



madmaximus

[genEus]

Just to chime in... I have about 6 AT lessons under my belt. I feel totally awkward and off-balance but I already know a lot of things and can attempt to combine things I know into a simple tango.

Now, on topic, I tried to dance with this girl who, ever since starting to dance a couple of months ago, has danced with a really good leader, who's been teaching her a lot of things. It was a total disaster on one hand, but an encouragement on another. I was happy that she wasn't just repeating the motions that were taught to us in the class, but actually followed my lead. Also, whenever I would try to do a moulinette (sp?) we would screw it up, and I kept wondering why. She just said that she's following what I led. So, an instructor saw this and said that I was walking in one direction but my chest was signaling something different, and she - being the sensitive follower that she is - simply followed my lead.

It was very helpful to realize my mistakes. If she had been simply doing the movements that we were taught, I would've never known that it wasn't actually me leading, and I would never learn.

my 2c.