maintaining your dance space

[BrookeErin]

kind of an offshoot about the question about groping. How do you keep someone from moving in on your personal space. I am sure I have a more difficult time with this because I am more than willing to get up-close and personal with those I know, trust, and/or feel comfortable dancing; so I am likely presenting a double standard. Generally, men are respectful and either let me move in or are cognizant when I back off and we can continue an enjoyable dance, no issue. However, there is one guy I have had trouble with a couple of times. For quite a while, I simply avoided him, but last week (he seemed more sober and) I consented. My hands were on his biceps pushing back through the entire dance and he never quit pushing himself on me. It was near the end of the night so most of my friends were either gone or dancing, so I approached a stranger who'd been watching me to avoid a dance with him not 5 minutes later. This is the reason why some women I know won't accept dances with strangers at all.

[alemana]

people with problematic social skills may not recognize your body language (which to me seems pretty clear, but...) in your situation i would use verbal cues, as direct as you can muster. "you need to give me some space. " "don't dance so close." "i'll dance with you this time but please try to keep your frame."

if he still can't manage, he's struck out.

[tacad]

In ballroom we have a frame, and forgive me, I get lost as to whether salsa has a frame, and I keep that frame no matter what. I have the unfortunate tendancy to compensate and let them invade. So I have become stubborn. Sometimes if a woman is used to dancing international she will try to dance with body contact. I don't know how and I tell them that I am incapable of doing that and I will stumble all over them if I try. And then my frame comes out again.

[honeydragon]

Usually when some guy gets too close too soon to me on the dance floor, I 'tap' out. Meaning.. I use my hand that's connected to his arm and I just pat his arm or his chest to signal .. hey.. i'm getting claustrophobic here. I need some space. I want my comfort zone back..etc..

I usually try to not make a big scene about it. I believe there's gentle ways to communicate things like that. Alot of men don't realise that they've closed in on the their partner in an uncomfortable sense and if you don't tell them, they won't know, but it doesn't have to be told to them in a flat out blunt way to cause disruption in the dance and causing what's left of the dance to be awkward.

Similarly, if a guy on the dance floor suddenly uses a lead where he's touching me where I don't want to be touched.. my butt, thigh, stomach, hips.. etc.. I know all those are legit dance leads, but I don't like them because there are strangers watching everyone dance, and I don't want to give anyone the impression that it's ok to touch me there. Usually when I dance with a friend or a stranger and they touch me in those areas, I can play it off by smacking their hands playfully and shaking my head & finger at them and still continue dancing at the same time. This way, we're still dancing and having fun as if we're teasing, but the smack on his hand pretty much tells him... hey.. you do that again and i'll really smack you.

[blue]

in your situation i would use verbal cues, as direct as you can muster. "you need to give me some space. " "don't dance so close." "i'll dance with you this time but please try to keep your frame."

Sounds good to me.

A common advice in similar but non dance-related situations is to first put a name to what he is doing, and after that saying what you want. Something like "you are pulling me too close. I would like you to give me more space". This is straight forward but at the same time not accusational.

[Lockstep]

simple thing that the ladies in my class are being taught, to simply lower your left hand (which is usually resting on the man's shoulder) a bit, which allows you to use just a tiny amount of pressure to push the man slightly away. works wonderfully, subtle, and pretty universally applicable

[TheLetterJ]

I think simple back pressure should work most of the time, but if on occasion the guy doesn't get the hint, a verbal clue such as "I'd like more space" should be polite and straightforward without being rude.

[brujo]

Accessorize, girlfriend!
http://images.ibsys.com/2003/1021/2570828.jpg

[delamusica]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

excellent, brujo! :)

BrookeErin - has he ever made any advances on you in any other way? There is a guy at the salsa place I go to who dances really really close, and it made me a little uncomfortable at first. But he's never asked for my number, tried to buy me a drink, or even talked to me other than to ask for a dance. He's never tried to walk me to my car, find out where I live, follow me around the club, or anything else that would be alarming. Just a dance or two per night with an unusually close frame. So I've just come to see it as the way he dances and not be worried about it. If having someone in your personal space bugs you, that's more than enough reason to tell him to back off - but is this guy giving you anything to worry about when you're not dancing with him?

[BrookeErin]

I've never given him the opportunity. It sounds bad but he's kind of creepy/leery, and I've watched him with other girls... it's more than a variation of the dance frame. I think he would be a groper. Like I said, for the most part, I don't have any trouble. What has been suggested I tried with this guy, I just wondered if I'd missed something. Basically, just avoid him :roll:

[delamusica]

Avoiding. Good plan. A groper is altogether different from a close dancer.

[squirrel]

One of my former instructors suggested a method... not such a nice one:

If the guy is dancing too close just use your high heels and step "accidentally" on his feet... when (and if) if spins you, a my-elbow-to-his-chin move is advisable... :lol: :lol: And don't forget to apologise all the time "Oh, sorry, I am such a lousy dancer!"... :lol: :lol: :lol: Works wonders, I've been told!

[Lucretia]

Excellent brujo :lol: !

A friend of mine - who looks like Aphrodite and dances as a Goodess - is very open about this subject. She ask the guy "Do you wanna dance with me or not?".

And all the guys always accept - they realize that they are hazarding the dancerelation they have with this girl if they go further.

/luc

[Houdinni]

To some people, or during some particular musics, dancing closer toguether can be quite natural, with no ill intent.

But if that bothers you, you have every right to stop that from happening...

You can:

Verbalise it, asking for space.
Push way, usually with your left arm.
And ill intent or not, you dance to have fun. Most dancers will aknowledge that if something they're doing disturbs the lady, she won't have fun while dancing. So if nothing else works... walk away!
After all, respect should be granted to those who respect others. If the lead doesn't wish to respect your wishes while danceng, he should expect nothing else from someone with personality! :)

[nikita]

Hi-
it really happened a very, very few times. But if the guy really doesn't seems to understand- I just walked away...

[peachexploration]

Hi Nikita! Welcome to Dance Forums! :D

[dancin/dj]

Accessorize, girlfriend!
http://images.ibsys.com/2003/1021/2570828.jpg :lol:

[dancin/dj]

I think simple back pressure should work most of the time, but if on occasion the guy doesn't get the hint, a verbal clue such as "I'd like more space" should be polite and straightforward without being rude. this should work,if not and he"s that dense turn him down for future dances :!:

[Sabor]

dance space..? hmm.. what dance space? :twisted:

[azzey]

simple thing that the ladies in my class are being taught, to simply lower your left hand (which is usually resting on the man's shoulder) a bit, which allows you to use just a tiny amount of pressure to push the man slightly away. works wonderfully, subtle, and pretty universally applicable

I taught this to an girlfriend of mine.

The technique is for the follower to place her left hand on the inside instead of the outside of his shoulder and place her *thumb* in the gap between his bones. Keep your arm extended to the distance you want to keep. It should be no problem to keep anyone at bay, the more they push the more they hurt themselves by pressing your thumb in between their shoulder bones. owww! It hurts trust me.
This is effectively the same as a martial arts technique I used to use.

Ideally start dancing in this position and keep a constant light pressure, therefore they cannot get any closer to you without using considerable energy and a lot of struggle.

Word of caution: Don't do this to anyone you like as I personally find it very annoying, even just having her hand resting there.

[nikita]

That's quite difficult. It looks more a fight than a dance. :headwall:

[Sagitta]

Word of caution: Don't do this to anyone you like as I personally find it very annoying, even just having her hand resting there.

Me too. :? :(

[azzey]

That's quite difficult. It looks more a fight than a dance. :headwall:

The point is that the follower is *NOT the one struggling* to keep the leader at bay. The technique, if applied correctly, gives the follower power over her own personal space with minimal force, while allowing the leader to still lead and dance with her if he wants to. The leader has to use maximum force even to move an inch closer.

Soon he will either:
a) over power her in which case he's not intending to dance with you so the follower should just leave him on the dance floor looking like the p**k he is.
b) Relax and realise that the follower wants him to remain at this distance which she is comfortable with. All turn patterns are still comfortable for the leader so there is no necessity for him to be closer, except in a couple of situations e.g. where both couples are rotating at speed and need to be closer to maintain balance.

What looks like a fight is when the follower doesn't follow the leader because she doesn't trust him. This can happen because of previous bad experiences or just bad dancing. If she knew how to get out of most situations this would not be a problem and she would be more confident and relaxed about following his lead.

It's difficult I know. I've seen a lot of that kind of element in the club scene and it's simply not necessary - if a girl likes you she'll glue herself to you and it's difficult getting them far enough away to dance properly!

I guess it's the ones who want to force themselves on girls that are the problem and you either gain a dance radar and refuse them or learn some techniques to get out before it gets ugly.

I really don't understand those girls who accept dances again and again from the same guys and then complain that they got groped! Go figure.

[azzey]

Perhaps you girls should ask for a class in dance defense! hehe.

[Twilight_Elena]

There's this guy who has been hitting on me for a long time. He can't dance (hopeless!) and acts like he can, and his frame keeps on falling apart. His right hand pulls me closer, and only from one side(!), and the hand slider at the centre of my back. I try to keep a steely frame and keep him as far as humanly possible, but the guy is getting on my nerves. It's rumba, my friend, but damned if I'll dance it like a dying goldfish!

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

... I am sure I have a more difficult time with this because I am more than willing to get up-close and personal with those I know, trust, and/or feel comfortable dancing; so I am likely presenting a double standard.


I have one question for you. When you hug and kiss friends, kiss boyfriends on the lips or touch people you know in public do you then expect that strangers on seeing this will expect to be able to do the same?

Hmm...

Just because it's dancing doesn't mean normal social rules go out the window.

[Sagitta]

... I am sure I have a more difficult time with this because I am more than willing to get up-close and personal with those I know, trust, and/or feel comfortable dancing; so I am likely presenting a double standard.


I have one question for you. When you hug and kiss friends, kiss boyfriends on the lips or touch people you know in public do you then expect that strangers on seeing this will expect to be able to do the same?

Hmm...

Just because it's dancing doesn't mean normal social rules go out the window.

Among latinos, AT dancers, and many cultures it is common to hug and kiss people on the cheek, and not necessarily friends.

[BrookeErin]

... I am sure I have a more difficult time with this because I am more than willing to get up-close and personal with those I know, trust, and/or feel comfortable dancing; so I am likely presenting a double standard.


I have one question for you. When you hug and kiss friends, kiss boyfriends on the lips or touch people you know in public do you then expect that strangers on seeing this will expect to be able to do the same?

Hmm...

Just because it's dancing doesn't mean normal social rules go out the window.

Among latinos, AT dancers, and many cultures it is common to hug and kiss people on the cheek, and not necessarily friends.

As Sagitta said, part of the culture is greeting and parting with a kiss on the cheek. I do Not makeout/kiss on the lips on the dance floor, in clubs, etc. (that is pretty easily avoided) so no one is getting the wrong idea from that. I am not an unsufferable flirt; I'm pretty independent. I simply meant that with trusted leads I will dance a close bachata, or I will integrate 'some' grinding into a dance; I have danced hip hop and bellydancing (those are the most recent and what I integrate) also, so even when not touching anyone, it can appear sensual. As stated, normal social rules do not go out the window. It is only in clubs where people assume that others could be that friendly sometimes without even knowing a name. Normal social rules would suggest that of course you have to know someone first. I am taking responsibility for what I do know that other people see; however, I do not think anyone should expect anything out of me or anyone else.

[azzey]

Among latinos, AT dancers, and many cultures it is common to hug and kiss people on the cheek, and not necessarily friends.

Yes I am used to this also. I have many friends who are spanish, italian, swiss etc. where kissing on the cheek is normal. In fact you get so used to it that for many years now I feel odd when an english girl says hello to me and only shakes my hand. It feels strangely cold and unwelcoming. Bizarre eh.

...As stated, normal social rules do not go out the window. It is only in clubs where people assume that others could be that friendly sometimes without even knowing a name. Normal social rules would suggest that of course you have to know someone first. I am taking responsibility for what I do know that other people see; however, I do not think anyone should expect anything out of me or anyone else.

My point was that regardless of your behaviour or knowing/not knowing someone, *permission* is the important ingrediant in any social act whether the permission is given verbally or non-verbally.

I personally don't think its right for anyone to assume something regardless of your behaviour with others. That was my point. It has nothing to do with who I grind with or if kissing is the norm, if some drunken woman comes up to me and gropes me (has happened :lol: ) then I won't be pleased.

Anyone with half a brain can read non-verbal signals from a woman, so the only conclusion you can come to is that the other guys who get in trouble read those and go ahead anyway.

[azzey]

...if some drunken woman comes up to me and gropes me (has happened :lol: ) then I won't be pleased.


Unless she's drop dead gorgeous of course. :lol: :lol: :wink:

[MacMoto]

There's this guy who has been hitting on me for a long time. He can't dance (hopeless!) and acts like he can, and his frame keeps on falling apart. His right hand pulls me closer, and only from one side(!), and the hand slider at the centre of my back. I try to keep a steely frame and keep him as far as humanly possible, but the guy is getting on my nerves. It's rumba, my friend, but damned if I'll dance it like a dying goldfish!
... and you are still dancing with him? Have you told him that you don't like the way he pulls you too close?

[Lofland]

Similarly, if a guy on the dance floor suddenly uses a lead where he's touching me where I don't want to be touched.. my butt, thigh, stomach, hips.. etc.. I know all those are legit dance leads, but I don't like them because there are strangers watching everyone dance, and I don't want to give anyone the impression that it's ok to touch me there.

I can't see how a hip or stomach lead (or even a thigh if you're making her do a free spin) would give guys the wrong idea at a salsa club, since those leads are happening all the time. If theses strangers are watching that intently and they try to grope later, they would probably have groped anyway. I like doing a hip lead because it allows the follower to style with her hands while still maintaining the connection.

[Salsaonone]

As a leader, who goes out dancing for dancing, sometimes with followers I know and some I don't, throwing in a little bit of close dancing is part of the salsa dance experience...Most followers who do not like it will say so, and I will edit it out of my dance with that partner from that point on (same thing with dips)...but when I am dancing close to a woman, it is just that...dancing close to a woman...its not groping, its not having sex with her in the middle of the floor, its not asking her hand in marriage, its just close dancing...not even dirty dancing...it can have a great feeling to it...but I have never mixed my social life with my personal life...hmm..fascinating last sentence, don't you think? :) And if a woman wants more than just a close dance, we can talk about it outside the dance floor, and if the woman wants less, they are either mature enough to say so, or start to avoid dancing with me(or for whatever reason)....I know there are followers that I dance with who do not like it (or dips) so I simply dont do them...takes a fun chunk(to me) out of the dance, but why do something you know they don't want...always take care of the follower..if they don't say anything, then keep doing it....some of the followers think that the close dancing is the best part....so I think close dancing is neutral on its own.... :wink:

[tacad]

but I have never mixed my social life with my personal life...hmm..fascinating last sentence, don't you think? :)
Yeah, that is interesting. Hmmm.

[Kindra]

Salsaonone wrote:
but I have never mixed my social life with my personal life...hmm..fascinating last sentence, don't you think?



Never??? I too find that rather interesting... :)

[Twilight_Elena]

There's this guy who has been hitting on me for a long time. He can't dance (hopeless!) and acts like he can, and his frame keeps on falling apart. His right hand pulls me closer, and only from one side(!), and the hand slider at the centre of my back. I try to keep a steely frame and keep him as far as humanly possible, but the guy is getting on my nerves. It's rumba, my friend, but damned if I'll dance it like a dying goldfish!
... and you are still dancing with him? Have you told him that you don't like the way he pulls you too close?
I don't like saying no, though lately I have improved on that. Saying no always made me feel bad... :bkick:
However, I have been saying no to this guy lately, whenever I bump into him (thank heavens it's not often!), but I try to do so in a gentle manner. I just can blow them off like that! I'm a beginner, I wouldn't like the same thing happening to me, so I won't do it to them!
On another note, there was this guy last time who asked me, after the merengue/salsa/bachata class (takes place right before the party), to help him with his merengue steps. I did so (he's horrible at dancing and has a very goofy look, but I couldn't possibly say no to the learning activity), and then he kept on asking me to dance. I said no all the time, coming up with lame excuses and such, but he wouldn't take a hint! I thought guys don't ask someone again if they have been brushed off...
Oh, plus he was being escorted by a loud gal who danced with others all the time. :?

Twilight Elena

P.s. It's not all that easy to say no to someone who's older than you! I'm not even old enough to drink!

[cierre boca y baile]

kind of an offshoot about the question about groping. How do you keep someone from moving in on your personal space. I am sure I have a more difficult time with this because I am more than willing to get up-close and personal with those I know, trust, and/or feel comfortable dancing; so I am likely presenting a double standard. Generally, men are respectful and either let me move in or are cognizant when I back off and we can continue an enjoyable dance, no issue. However, there is one guy I have had trouble with a couple of times. For quite a while, I simply avoided him, but last week (he seemed more sober and) I consented. My hands were on his biceps pushing back through the entire dance and he never quit pushing himself on me. It was near the end of the night so most of my friends were either gone or dancing, so I approached a stranger who'd been watching me to avoid a dance with him not 5 minutes later. This is the reason why some women I know won't accept dances with strangers at all.

There are many dances that lend themselves to closed position dancing, but even those, I never assume a lady I don't know wants to dance that way and will wait for her to give some kind of signal that is ok with her. It doesn't sound like this guy is a dancer and using this position to initate dance moves. I would say after giving him a chance or two by pushing him back to a normal distance, then end the dance. Then next time he asks you to dance, maybe give him one more chance or not, but after that politely decline his future requests.

You seem concerned that you may offend him if you do, but you should only be concerned, if he were doing it inadverently or didn't know better. I can assure you that a guy who is dancing close enough to you to make you uncomfortable knows what he is doing. Also you can tell by her facial expressions or other body language if your making her uncomfortable or not. If he keeps doing it, I wouldn't have a lot of sympathy for him.

All that being said, I enjoy close dances with girls I find attractive, but I always let them lead into that part of the dance first. It actually surprises me how many do, especially since most girls I dance with have no formal dance training where they would have been taught that. Just last night a girl I'd never met before came with some friends and within a few minutes of meeting her, we were dancing a Merengue and before I knew it, there she was pressed tightly up against me. Of course I didn't object, since she was very attractive :D . I have had the opposite experience though, where girls were trying to initiate the contact and I wasn't so eager for that to happen. Believe me, it is very good practice for learning to keep a strong frame :) .