The agony of being a good dancer... and alone.

[madmaximus]

Here's a dilemma.

You want to compete. You're the only good [male] dancer in a small (semi-remote) community. There is a decent-size partner pool in town, but no one really matches up to your skill. You have to drive 2 (two) hours just to find partners who might measure up to your dancing. There are no good coaches in town to even do a Pro/Am with. Two hours away, the three good followers who can give you a run for your money are all taken. Can't really relocate...

Do you--

Look for a partner who lives two hours away and drive to every practice?
Look for a decent newbie who's in town and train them?
Have a willing partner relocate?
Relocate and move to where the good ones are?

Regardless of circumstance (Level A or E, Bronze or Champion, Amateur/Pro, etc...) What do you think?

madmaximus

[swan]

Whatever works...It's not even being a 'good' dancer. It's about finding that compatible partner. Sometimes they can even be thousands of miles away! And you just have to make it work.

Pros do that, amateurs do that.

Training newbie is always an option. You never know when your partner may leapfrog you. May be you'll be pleasantly surprised that is sooner than you think.

I speak from experience. As long as it's a compatible partner, it's all worthwhile...

[Joe]

How did you get to be so good if the local talent pool is so...shallow?

[newbie]

I'm amazed how ballroom seems strongly related to competition in DF. I've been taking ballroom classes, and dancing it socially, for years, but 98,5 per cent of my ballroom life has nothing to do with competition. (one per cent is because I know a couple who does compete, and the last half per cent for one bronze medal I once helped to pass, the lady needed a partner.)

[Chris Stratton]

I'm amazed how ballroom seems strongly related to competition in DF. I've been taking ballroom classes, and dancing it socially, for years, but 98,5 per cent of my ballroom life has nothing to do with competition.

This may be true at first, but past a certain level of development, something like competition seems to be needed as an excuse or justification to work on and practice dancing at the kind of level many of us want to. I really wish there were social opportunities at a comparable level, but there really are not. You either see something that is very formal with really limited dancing, or you see competitors partying informally, but with wonderful dancing.

[alemana]

an international latin teacher i know insists that ballroom is danced "socially" in "europe," unlike in the US where it is very closely tied to competition. is that true?

[madmaximus]

Whatever works...It's not even being a 'good' dancer. It's about finding that compatible partner. Sometimes they can even be thousands of miles away! And you just have to make it work.

Pros do that, amateurs do that.

Training newbie is always an option. You never know when your partner may leapfrog you. May be you'll be pleasantly surprised that is sooner than you think.

I speak from experience. As long as it's a compatible partner, it's all worthwhile...

Welcome to DF swan! Thanks for the reply. :)

Would you say then, that finding a compatible partner (if available) is preferable to training a newbie? What do you do in the meantime--while waiting for that compatible partner--expecially if there's a newbie with good potential waiting at the wings? Keep training alone, drive? Fly?

Let's make it a little more complicated. What if you have very limited time to devote to your dancing. Do you *waste* your time commuting, for the sake of dancing with a quality partner?

What if finding a compatible partner would take more time than training a newbie to dance at your level?

I know a number of dancers (of varying skill levels) who are faced with this dilemma too.

m

[madmaximus]

How did you get to be so good if the local talent pool is so...shallow?
This thread is partially theoretical--as I know a few others [men and women] in this same situation. Most had been dancing with a good partner who either had to leave or stop for personal reasons. Others were simply leap-frogged.

Personally, I had the benefit of top teachers in another city, before I moved to this town. Then I was lucky enough to partner with a lady who used to dance at the international level (and was very good at it--judging from the amount of medals in her display case). But she decided to retire a few years ago.

madmaximus.

[newbie]

an international latin teacher i know insists that ballroom is danced "socially" in "europe," unlike in the US where it is very closely tied to competition. is that true?

Here I can dance ballroom socially once a month. If I really scan the opportunities it would amount to once a week. Not counting the parties organized by studios of course.

[Chris Stratton]

Here I can dance ballroom socially once a month. If I really scan the opportunities it would amount to once a week. Not counting the parties organized by studios of course.

From the other side of the house, once a week isn't enough practice to maintain basic skills.

[madmaximus]

an international latin teacher i know insists that ballroom is danced "socially" in "europe," unlike in the US where it is very closely tied to competition. is that true?
This too, is second hand information. From what I've been told by my mentors, the Paso Doble is danced socially in France and the Philippines.

Also, the American Style is only recently gaining popularity in Europe (again according to my UK-based mentor--she's had more requests for American style lessons this last five years). Most of the dancers there have been weaned on the International style--hence, that is what they would naturally dance socially.

madmaximus

[tacad]

I'm amazed how ballroom seems strongly related to competition in DF. I've been taking ballroom classes, and dancing it socially, for years, but 98,5 per cent of my ballroom life has nothing to do with competition.

This may be true at first, but past a certain level of development, something like competition seems to be needed as an excuse or justification to work on and practice dancing at the kind of level many of us want to. I really wish there were social opportunities at a comparable level, but there really are not. You either see something that is very formal with really limited dancing, or you see competitors partying informally, but with wonderful dancing.
Hmmm. This reminds me of my jazz band days. Some how being part of a jazz band with performances and competitions did elevate us. We could have gotten together and had jam sessions but I doubt we would have been as good. I wonder what I'm getting myself into.

Still some salsa dancers seem very good without competitions.

[Chris Stratton]

Still some salsa dancers seem very good without competitions.

If ballroom had half as much popular participation as salsa, you might start to see people approaching it differently. (And to a limited extent, when the large Boston collegiate teams get together, you in fact do see a much more social take on things).

But the dances are also different - although ballroom was originally and briefly a "deviant" dance, for generations its been a formalized one, wheras even though salsa makes appearences in organized classes and studios, it's still much more of an informal club dance.

[sunderi]

Here's a dilemma.

You want to compete. You're the only good [male] dancer in a small (semi-remote) community. There is a decent-size partner pool in town, but no one really matches up to your skill. You have to drive 2 (two) hours just to find partners who might measure up to your dancing. There are no good coaches in town to even do a Pro/Am with. Two hours away, the three good followers who can give you a run for your money are all taken. Can't really relocate...

Do you--

Look for a partner who lives two hours away and drive to every practice?
Look for a decent newbie who's in town and train them?
Have a willing partner relocate?
Relocate and move to where the good ones are?


In a (kind of*) similar situation, I'm opting to train a newer partner. Well, I'm not really TRAINING him, but I've decided to work with someone who is not quite at my level so that we can grow together as a pair.

*It's not REALLY the same situation. I live near a big city with a large number of potential partners. However, I'm a franchise instructor, and in order to make my life a LOT easier, I really need to find another pro from the same franchise to partner with (in order to limit the amount of wrath that will fall on me from on high :wink: ). That makes it tough. The best male pros (well above my level) are already taken, or are no longer interested in competing. And if they were, they probably wouldn't be seeking someone like me for a partner. There are a few that are about my level, but the ones that aren't taken are mostly obnoxious, egotistical or lazy (hence the fact that they aren't taken :wink: ). My new partner is not quite up to my level of dancing, but we get along well, we're comfortable dancing together, and we're both willing and excited to work on our dancing. So, deciding to work with him is definitely the best choice for me. Luckily, we do have some good local coaches to work with, which will help a lot.

I think the overall answer to your question, though, is going to vary a lot on a situation by situation basis. It will depend on whether you're talking about pros or amateurs, how much time and money people are willing to invest, the distance (for travel) involved, and the extent to which the local talent is good enough to be worth investing that kind of effort in.

[Sagitta]

Still some salsa dancers seem very good without competitions.

If ballroom had half as much popular participation as salsa, you might start to see people approaching it differently. (And to a limited extent, when the large Boston collegiate teams get together, you in fact do see a much more social take on things).

But the dances are also different - although ballroom was originally and briefly a "deviant" dance, for generations its been a formalized one, wheras even though salsa makes appearences in organized classes and studios, it's still much more of an informal club dance.

Yup we don't have too many ballroom dances in our area. However, there are many dance mixes, and often a waltz or foxtrot can be done during swing dances... Perhaps this is why it is good that I have a street latin addiction.

[etchuck]

Still some salsa dancers seem very good without competitions.

If ballroom had half as much popular participation as salsa, you might start to see people approaching it differently. (And to a limited extent, when the large Boston collegiate teams get together, you in fact do see a much more social take on things).

But the dances are also different - although ballroom was originally and briefly a "deviant" dance, for generations its been a formalized one, wheras even though salsa makes appearences in organized classes and studios, it's still much more of an informal club dance.

Yup we don't have too many ballroom dances in our area. However, there are many dance mixes, and often a waltz or foxtrot can be done during swing dances... Perhaps this is why it is good that I have a street latin addiction.

Hmm... that's interesting. There is a salsa scene in Boston, and I've been very impressed with the few Bostonian salseros/as that just have such an amazing dance style. I'd agree that for whatever reason they are more into a different type of competition where it's much more subjective in terms of style (perhaps???) compared to judging salsa versus a "standard".

I grant I probably can go ballroom dancing up to three times a week depending on the week. Certainly not all the dances will be immensely popular, but that happens. On the other hand, I can also dance salsa at least 3 times a week, swing 2-3 times a week, Argentine tango 2 times a week, and country western-dance up to 4.

[Chris Stratton]

the extent to which the local talent is good enough to be worth investing that kind of effort in.

"Talent" is the most pointless word in the ballroom vocabulary. The only thing that matters is if someone has the drive to improve, and access to training that can guide them. If you want to look at someone's past, look at their pace of their development, not where they started from. Too often, those who start with a reliance on talent never outgrow their initial habits - when this becomes a frustrating limitation, they quit.

[tsb]

the 'right' answer is going to be different for everybody; your own personal goals & desire towards achieving those goals will tell you what you need to do.

having said that, in your own situation, once you find a partner, who would coach you?

[tsb]

the extent to which the local talent is good enough to be worth investing that kind of effort in.

"Talent" is the most pointless word in the ballroom vocabulary. The only thing that matters is if someone has the drive to improve, and access to training that can guide them. If you want to look at someone's past, look at their pace of their development, not where they started from. Too often, those who start with a reliance on talent never outgrow their initial habits - when this becomes a frustrating limitation, they quit.

if you don't want to call it 'talent' fine, but there is a certain level of aptitude you need; i know plenty of people who dance (leaders & followers) who've had plenty of competent instruction who still can't even find the downbeat or maintain a consistent tempo to save their lives. and if they're inattentive drivers the odds are good that their floorcraft will be equally deplorable.

[Chris Stratton]

if you don't want to call it 'talent' fine, but there is a certain level of aptitude you need; i know plenty of people who dance (leaders & followers) who've had plenty of competent instruction who still can't even find the downbeat or maintain a consistent tempo to save their lives. and if they're inattentive drivers the odds are good that their floorcraft will be equally deplorable.

Those things all get fixed in relatively short order when someone decides to make fixing them their personal goal. This is critically different from having others suggest that these areas should be their goal.

[tsb]

if you don't want to call it 'talent' fine, but there is a certain level of aptitude you need; i know plenty of people who dance (leaders & followers) who've had plenty of competent instruction who still can't even find the downbeat or maintain a consistent tempo to save their lives. and if they're inattentive drivers the odds are good that their floorcraft will be equally deplorable.

Those things all get fixed in relatively short order when someone decides to make fixing them their personal goal. This is critically different from having others suggest that these areas should be their goal.

some people work very hard at it but just aren't going to be good dancers - & i think they'd be offended by your implication(s) in your statement.

[Chris Stratton]

some people work very hard at it but just aren't going to be good dancers - & i think they'd be offended by your implication(s) in your statement.

Sure, there's a lot of wasted hard work going on - because for someone really struggling, they need the guidance of someone who really understands what it means to have to work at those aspects, and who believes they can be dealt with. If someone is putting in tons of work and not getting anywhere, it's because there's a prerequisite detail that's been glossed over. A lot of the people involved in dancing were able to glide over many details, at least until the point where further progress requires a deep re-examination of everything. If you are surrounded by those who are operating on the basis of a lot of assumptions which don't apply to you, then yes, it could be quite frustrating. But the problem is other's assumptions, not your own inability.

[tacad]

Ok, I'll put in my two cents. In my own life I probably will relocate closer to dancing. Its such a big part of my life and the only thing I have any passion for. But I have a job that can relocate relatively easy. It wouldn't be a big deal. Of course, I do social dancing, not competition.

[tsb]

some people work very hard at it but just aren't going to be good dancers - & i think they'd be offended by your implication(s) in your statement.

Sure, there's a lot of wasted hard work going on - because for someone really struggling, they need the guidance of someone who really understands what it means to have to work at those aspects, and who believes they can be dealt with. If someone is putting in tons of work and not getting anywhere, it's because there's a prerequisite detail that's been glossed over. A lot of the people involved in dancing were able to glide over many details, at least until the point where further progress requires a deep re-examination of everything. If you are surrounded by those who are operating on the basis of a lot of assumptions which don't apply to you, then yes, it could be quite frustrating. But the problem is other's assumptions, not your own inability.

by extension you'd be able to run 100 meters in under 10 seconds if you just worked hard enough and got the right coaching.

[tsb]

Ok, I'll put in my two cents. In my own life I probably will relocate closer to dancing. Its such a big part of my life and the only thing I have any passion for. But I have a job that can relocate relatively easy. It wouldn't be a big deal. Of course, I do social dancing, not competition.

so you'll be able to start staying later than 10pm? :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

by extension you'd be able to run 100 meters in under 10 seconds if you just worked hard enough and got the right coaching.

It's quite a stretch to call that a parallel to even competitive dancing, let alone social dancing. If you want a sports analogy, I'd be far more likley to compare dancing to learning to swim.

[Laura]

Anyone can learn to swim well enough to survive falling in a lake, fewer people bother to learn to swim with good technique, and far fewer still can become elite-level racing swimmers because body type starts to come strongly into play (that's why the world's top swimmers a are long-limbed, broady shouldered, and narrow hipped...and it's not just the training that makes them that way).

[Chris Stratton]

The key aspects there are not that some will never be in the olympics, but that almost everyone can learn to swim at a basic level, and to pursue it quite far against their own personal challenges. Similarly dancing - if you have some range of movement in your body, you can learn to dance with it. If you have typical range of motion, you can go reasonably far in an historically social form like ballroom.

[tsb]

The key aspects there are not that some will never be in the olympics, but that almost everyone can learn to swim at a basic level, and to pursue it quite far against their own personal challenges. Similarly dancing - if you have some range of movement in your body, you can learn to dance with it. If you have typical range of motion, you can go reasonably far in an historically social form like ballroom.

so there is a point where innate ability - or talent - makes a difference - which was my point all along.

[Chris Stratton]

so there is a point where innate ability - or talent - makes a difference - which was my point all along.

Not to much practical degree. There a are a few elite activities that may be reserved for those who start in an advantageous position, but most people have the potential to pursue things far, far beyond the level they will ultimately chose to.

[ReneeJoan]

A partner. The Holy Grail of Existence for a dancer. Cal Tech is having a DanceSport competition this Saturday, and I was in an absolute fever to compete in their one tango event. But I couldn't find a partner. There's only a handful of dancers here in Los Angeles that I felt would l give me a fighting chance at winning a prize (and yes, that's part of the point. If I don't want the prize, why enter the contest?), and most of those are professionals. Unfortunately, this is an amateur only competition. Not even pro/am. So, of the 3-4 people I had left on my list, one had no interest in dancing competitively, one lived too far a way, and the other two seem to have vanished into the void. I haven't seen them anywhere for almost two months. So much for that.

My teacher was talking last year about starting a tango troupe to do shows and stuff, and said I could be on it, on one condition. I had to find my own partner. He wouldn't find one for me. I must have asked just about every reasonably decent dancer in Los Angeles. No takers. Darn a rooney, but that was disappointing. They gave all kinds of reasons -- too far away, too big of a time commitment, no interest in performing, too busy with their own stuff. All perfectly valid reasons. But it was disappointing.

And I've noticed the little pool of professionals here in LA seem to trade partners around an awful lot. No one new enters the arena. The same people just keep shifting partners around every few months. The fact that these same professional partnerships often involve personal relationships makes it even more difficult, I think.

When I first started dancing, a very experienced tanguero warned me that 75% of the people in the tango community were looking for somebody (dance partner/lover/both). Not only have I found he was absolutely right, I think the percentage is way too low. It's more like 90%.

Renee

[tsb]

so there is a point where innate ability - or talent - makes a difference - which was my point all along.

Not to much practical degree. There a are a few elite activities that may be reserved for those who start in an advantageous position, but most people have the potential to pursue things far, far beyond the level they will ultimately chose to.

most - but not everyone - which is my point. there are some people who just won't get it.

[swan]

Welcome to DF swan! Thanks for the reply. :)

Would you say then, that finding a compatible partner (if available) is preferable to training a newbie? What do you do in the meantime--while waiting for that compatible partner--expecially if there's a newbie with good potential waiting at the wings? Keep training alone, drive? Fly?

Let's make it a little more complicated. What if you have very limited time to devote to your dancing. Do you *waste* your time commuting, for the sake of dancing with a quality partner?

What if finding a compatible partner would take more time than training a newbie to dance at your level?

I know a number of dancers (of varying skill levels) who are faced with this dilemma too.

m

ha...you've come to talk to the right person. It's not theoretcial. Been thru all the scenarios!

I have very little time devoted to dancing. I've got a very demanding job and family. So whenever I do get to dance, I put my 1000% energy & focus to it. When I'm not dancing, in my spare time, I'd think about dancing.

I waited over 2 years for the right partner. I did Pro/Am in between, kept up w/ training,etc. Had good amateur partners before, so I knew exactly what I was looking for.

Then I found my compatible partner, thousands of miles away. Started off w/ him being at a lower level. But I just felt the compability in terms of personality as well as he was able to bring out the best in me in dancing. I noticed we could produce better pictures, despite his raw skills comparing to my pros (and these were no small pros...) And to my very pleasant surprise, very quickly (and we're talking few months only & we only get to see each other for a few days every few weeks due to the distance), he caught up & now we could really produce some quality dancing. W/ him, I improved so much faster as well, despite the very infrequent but very intense practices.

I think you need to find out what's right for you. That newbie w/ potential may very well be that 'compatible' partner, as mine started out to be lower level (not newbie, though.) but got loads of talent & was fun to work with.

And I'd definitely say that my 'commute' is NOT a waste of my time...I could accomplish plenty on the plane... :) Catching up with my sleep, for one :)

[pygmalion]

Just curious. None of my biz, so don't answer if you're comfortable. But how does your family view the whole commuting-a-huge-distance-to-dance thing? Would you be able to do it if they weren't supportive?

[madmaximus]

Wow! Thank you everyone. Good perspectives.

Sometimes you just need an outside opinion. I think commuting would be bearable if the level of the partner justified it. Don't get me wrong. She is a wonderful dancer, great personality, and strong technique for where she is now. But in this case I am ending up teaching this partner I'm trying out with anyway just so she can dance at the level we need to.

madmaximus

[madmaximus]

Then I found my compatible partner, thousands of miles away. Started off w/ him being at a lower level. But I just felt the compability in terms of personality as well as he was able to bring out the best in me in dancing.
Wow ! Thousands of miles away!... Makes my 2 hour commute seem truly puny!
I think you need to find out what's right for you. That newbie w/ potential may very well be that 'compatible' partner, as mine started out to be lower level (not newbie, though.) but got loads of talent & was fun to work with.
Well said. I think I will look into it anyway--if just to be able to say I tried.

madmaximus

[swan]

Just curious. None of my biz, so don't answer if you're comfortable. But how does your family view the whole commuting-a-huge-distance-to-dance thing? Would you be able to do it if they weren't supportive?

Family would have to be supportive. Otherwise, this wouldn't have worked...

This was what my husband said - you got good comp. results and clearly you've got talent. If I were to stop you from dancing, by the time we get old, you'd have huge regrets & I wouldn't want to be the one who stopped you from realizing your dream & achieving your goal.

My husband is a Saint! I'm truly lucky indeed...

[Joe]

Chris and tsb: w.r.t the issue of talent, both of you are right to a degree, but Chris is more right. You do need a modicum of talent to dance well. However, the threshold is quite low, and those without a sufficient level of talent are generally culled very early in their dance "careers." So most potential partners who've stuck around a short time will have the necessary talent. More important than a high level of talent is a high level of desire.

And to get less OT: my coach has observed that everyone wants a partner who's better than they are. She's also observed that a person's standards get lower the longer they are partnerless, i.e. the desperation factor. ;)

[swan]

She's also observed that a person's standards get lower the longer they are partnerless, i.e. the desperation factor. ;)

Only half true...I remembered when I first met my current partner, his level was the same as some of the folks I've tried out with or still currently available in my area. I might just as well stay homebound & take up a partnership w/ someone who's at the similar level. However, to make the investment on such partner, there're other factors involved. I think the 'potential', 'talent', common goals, personality, and particularly in our case, our 'picture' all come into play.

[newbie]

...(not newbie, though.) ...

sigh...

[tsb]

Chris and tsb: w.r.t the issue of talent, both of you are right to a degree, but Chris is more right. You do need a modicum of talent to dance well. However, the threshold is quite low, and those without a sufficient level of talent are generally culled very early in their dance "careers." So most potential partners who've stuck around a short time will have the necessary talent. More important than a high level of talent is a high level of desire.



i think we all agree that there are people who dance at various levels of proficiency. however, the only point i was trying to establish was that some people don't have even the minimum amount of aptitude to become a 'good' dancer (whatever that means), a point that chris eventually affirmed (whether he meant to or not).

as i understand chris' contention to be that anyone could become a good dancer - and that people who do not become so is due to lack of effort or improper training. my intent of challenging that was only to be within the context of how that conflicted with the point i was trying to make.

hopefully we can now leave this dead horse & move on.

[Chris Stratton]

however, the only point i was trying to establish was that some people don't have even the minimum amount of aptitude to become a 'good' dancer (whatever that means), a point that chris eventually affirmed (whether he meant to or not).


No, I did not agree with that at all. Many people would have physical limitations that would keep them out of a national or international final, but that has essentially zero to do with becoming a good dancer.

[pygmalion]

Just curious. None of my biz, so don't answer if you're comfortable. But how does your family view the whole commuting-a-huge-distance-to-dance thing? Would you be able to do it if they weren't supportive?

Family would have to be supportive. Otherwise, this wouldn't have worked...

This was what my husband said - you got good comp. results and clearly you've got talent. If I were to stop you from dancing, by the time we get old, you'd have huge regrets & I wouldn't want to be the one who stopped you from realizing your dream & achieving your goal.

My husband is a Saint! I'm truly lucky indeed...

Wow. Tell your husband I said that he IS a saint. 8) :notworth:

[tsb]

however, the only point i was trying to establish was that some people don't have even the minimum amount of aptitude to become a 'good' dancer (whatever that means), a point that chris eventually affirmed (whether he meant to or not).


No, I did not agree with that at all. Many people would have physical limitations that would keep them out of a national or international final, but that has essentially zero to do with becoming a good dancer.

fine. i don't mind agreeing to disagree, but i seem to get the sense that there's no room to disagree with your opinion.

[pygmalion]

I'm too lazy to read all three pages. :oops: :lol: :lol: What's the argument about? :mrgreen: (It usually doesn't hurt to inject a little levity into the situation. :wink: )

[pygmalion]

Okay. So I just read page one and two. The discussion (doesn't sound like an argument, yet 8) ) is about what constitutes a good dancer, and whether some minimal level of innate talent is required in order to become one.

Sounds like a great new topic idea... :idea:

Good luck with the commute, madmaximus. Sounds like you're going to go for it. 8) Swan (and her husband) are inspirational to me, too. 8)

[mamboqueen]

Wow. Tell your husband I said that he IS a saint

Ditto, double ditto!

[madmaximus]

Good luck with the commute, madmaximus. Sounds like you're going to go for it. 8) Swan (and her husband) are inspirational to me, too. 8)

Thank you pygmalion. Although, I am going to explore the option of training an interested newbie.

madmaximus

[Chris Stratton]

A former partner and I dealt with a 4-hour commute for six months, during the second half of which I seriously thought of moving. Partnership failed, but enough of my focus had shifted to the other city that I eventually moved anyway.

[pygmalion]

Cool, madmaximus. It's probably good to keep your options open, anyway. 8)

Hmm, Chris. That is food for thought. It seems that a commute that long might put an additional strain on a partnership, especially if the partnership is relatively new. :?

[madmaximus]

The key aspects there are not that some will never be in the olympics, but that almost everyone can learn to swim at a basic level, and to pursue it quite far against their own personal challenges. Similarly dancing - if you have some range of movement in your body, you can learn to dance with it. If you have typical range of motion, you can go reasonably far in an historically social form like ballroom.

so there is a point where innate ability - or talent - makes a difference - which was my point all along.

This second discussion in this thread is a good one. Sorry I missed out (been in and out all day).

(As pygmalion suggested, we probably should move this to another thread. In the meantime, here's my take on the talent-effort discussion--just to beat the poor horse a little bit more...)

IMO...
--Talent or aptitude has a distinct advantage during the learning or training process.

--But, whatever advantage conferred by talent can be overcome (by another without it) through discipline, hard work, and the correct technical training.

--While genetics and physical prowess (which could be categorized under talent or *gifts*) confers advantage--such as a swimmer who has the right body shape; I think such advantage can be overcome by a lesser gifted swimmer, who by sheer force of will, develops stronger and faster muscles that overcome the disadvantage. (Spud Web, 5'7" has won the NBA slam dunk championships in the past--against much taller opponents).

--The knowledge that one has talent has its disadvantages too--such as over-reliance upon it that other technical details are simply glossed over and ignored. Depending on attitude and coaching, talent--without guidance and discipline--can be detrimental to realizing one's potential.

--Who will succeed in the end is the one that accepts no limitations--including the advantages of one's gifts.

madmaximus

[Snuggles]

my dance partner lives 5 hours away from me...last year he travelled by train to my house and stayed for the weekend while we jam packed with lessons...now this year i will travel by train to his house as we have changed studios...

[Sagitta]

--Who will succeed in the end is the one that accepts no limitations--including the advantages of one's gifts.

madmaximus
I agree.


And sometimes it is worthwhile, like Snuggles and others, to have long distance partners, if one finds the right person. :) Better than being alone.

[Kitty]

A former partner and I dealt with a 4-hour commute for six months, during the second half of which I seriously thought of moving. Partnership failed, but enough of my focus had shifted to the other city that I eventually moved anyway.

Failed? I think other people would probably call it very successful.

[Kitty]

to me 2 hours don't sound that bad. Even though my partner is only 30-40 minutes away, I have to commute 2.5 - 3 hours to the closest decent teacher!

[pygmalion]

It gets long, if you're driving it often enough. I used to do a long commute for work. 1:20 in good weather/traffic. 2 hours on bad days. It was fine for a while, but after about six months, I started feeling like I'd lose my mind or collapse. Eventually, I did both. :lol: :lol: Then I moved closer to the job.

Seriously, though, I guess it depends on the people involved, the frequency of the drive, and the capacity for exhaustion. Might not be too bad if there were good coaches at either end and you could alternate the drive... or if you could take puddle jumper flights between cities.

[tacad]

...or if you could take puddle jumper flights between cities.
You sure you want to admit to this? :wink:

[pygmalion]

I've been checking out some intra-state flights myself. There are some great coaches (ballroom, blues and swing) in Houston. It's far to drive, but cheap to fly. So I'm thinking ... 8)