"I keep on falling": turning on the CBL!

[Twilight_Elena]

We have been doing the following figure (I do salsa on1). It's like cross body leads, only you make a turn as you change direction, meaning:
1-2-3: lead moves to your left for CBL.
5: left step forward, as usual.
6-7: anti-clockwise turn and finish by looking at your partner.
Basically, it's 1+1/2 of a turn. Sounds easy, but I keep on losing my balance! Teacher says I throw my weight backwards, and not forward, and that's why I lose it. He's most probably right (make that definately) but when I turn, I just don't understand what I'm doing, and that goes for all turns! I lose my sense of direction and practically don't know what my feet or body are doing.
Heeeeelp! Any tips? Should I clench my thighs tight (hold my core) and try it? It's not a spin; more like a "walking turn", as I call them, so that is sort of difficult. What can I do?

Twilight Elena

[Gentemer]

At my classes, this was trained with the guys and the girls in separate groups, so you should be able to do it even without a lead!
Perhaps that is even the problem: too much relying on the lead to lead you in the correct turn?

[vey]

Teacher says I throw my weight backwards, and not forward, and that's why I lose it. He's most probably right (make that definately) but when I turn, I just don't understand what I'm doing, and that goes for all turns! I lose my sense of direction and practically don't know what my feet or body are doing.


:arrow: If you loose your balance only on CBL w/turn - I'd say let someone experienced check your footwork - extra or missing steps can get you off-balance.

:arrow: If, however, you have an overall problem with balance during turns/spins (like I do):

- one of your sides is likely to be worse than the other (and for you it could be that left/ counterclockwise turns are more difficult, hence the problem with CBL/turn)

- in addition to "general" advice of "spoting", good posture, making sure that your footwork is correct, I'd recommend not to make your body/thighs too tense during turns/spins, so you would have "room" for additional flexing when you are actually loosing balance.

- work on your "core strength" - it helped me a lot : there's a great DF article by BodiesByBija "Developing Good Balance" ( http://dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5889&highlight=balance )

- practice -you will discover little tricks that work for you :wink:

- oh, almost forgot - arms position is also very important for turns and spins ( there should be some info here on DF - I'll post a link if I have time to find it).

[Pebbles]

You are right it is a walking turn. It's almost like walking down the street, except with smaller steps. If you feel your body is tense, or are using more force than walking, you may be trying too hard. Try relax and let yourself follow the lead.

Are you learning it from a salsa teacher or a ballroom teacher?

[Lofland]

even a one-hour private lesson with the right instructor should clear this up. It's worth it, you'll be doing CBLs with inside turns like this every dance.

Normally on this I thought the woman was supposed to pivot on her left foot as soon as she stepped onto it and shifted her weight on the 5, or an instant after the 5.

Keep your knees together, imagine you're holding a tennis ball between them. Your feet can be further apart.

Spot your turn-- this means keep your head facing your partner, whip it around till you're facing your partner again when you turn.

Arms-- keep your right arm up in front of you, across your body.

Be sure you're staying on the balls of your feet till you finish.

Teachers seem to disagree on how to end it. My teacher said to end the turn on the 7 or 8 with your right foot back, where it will be on the 1. It's a little cheat that saves you some time.

Your leaders could be part of the problem. They should have your left arm up so your upper arm is horizontal, and your left hand stays a few inches from your head and goes around like a halo. The leader should also apply the right amount of pressure to make you turn. I know when I do my lead wrong it throws the woman off in this.

Hope this helps.

[squirrel]

Practice on your own! And remember: it is not a spin, it is a walking turn made in 3 steps... small steps! And keep your knees close!

The above advices are great, btw!

[MacMoto]

Twilight_Elena, I had the same problem with the cross-body turn -- balance has always been my problem :oops: -- and it took me many many months of practice and social dancing to get it right.

Some tips that may help you:

- Bend your knees, especially as you come out of the turn. Finish your turn with knees bent and your weight on the balls of your feet, not the heels. This has helped me A LOT.

- When you turn, take small steps. Make sure you keep your thighs together (no need to clench) -- that helps reduce your step size.

- Spot. Treat the turn as a half turn followed by a full single turn. Focus on the leader when you come out of the half turn, and spot when you do the single turn. This prevents the disorientation problem you mentioned. (Note: It's not easy -- at least, wasn't for me :oops:. Keep practising!)

[azzey]

Teachers seem to disagree on how to end it. My teacher said to end the turn on the 7 or 8 with your right foot back, where it will be on the 1. It's a little cheat that saves you some time.


I agree with everything you said except this part. You would only end up facing your partner again on 7 if you were doing a CBL right 1+1/2 turn.

Twilight_Elena:

If you try to rush the turn so that you end up facing your partner again by 7 this could be a cause of the problem.

1+1/2 CBL turns to the left are three steps on 5,6,7. So it's pretty obvious that 5 is the normal CBL step forward as you described, 6 is a half turn to your left, 7 another half turn to your left. You are now facing away from your partner.

Do not worry about this. There are many many salsa moves that require you to be in this position, for example stopping the girl and then turning her in the other direction. These you will learn later.

Continue turning during the 8th beat and step back on the first beat. There is plenty of time to make this a continuous smooth motion of stepping on 5,6,7,1.

One additional area to watch out for is NOT to step back with your heel down on the 1 otherwise your body will move back over that foot and will likely cause you to lose balance momentarily. At the least it will make it more difficult for you to start the next CBL unless the step back was a very small step.

The trick to learning CBL turns is to step through them firstly with your weight on your toes but your heels almost down then gradually practice bringing your heels up and see how it feels different. Keep adjusting til you get the right balance.

Remember that the CBL is in a slot, but NOT a tight rope/straight line. So natural turning of your steps should make you appear to drift to the left slightly as you move down your immaginary slot. This is natural and is used as part of the salsa dance to get you back into position with the man for the next lead. If you are trying to turn on an imaginery tight rope then you will likely find balancing very difficult.

Hope this helps.

[azzey]

Oh, another tip:

Whenever you step, good technique for all CBL steps is to point your foot at either 1 o'clock or 11 o'clock, depending on which direction your steps are taking you.

e.g.: CBL steps:
on 1 - step back - this naturally has your right toe pointing to 1 o'clock
on 2 - step on the spot - point left forwards (12 o'clock)
on 3 - step forwards and slighly to the right - point right foot towards 1 o'clock
on 5 - step forwards and slightly to the left - point left foot to 11 o'clock.
on 6 - turn and step with right foot - point towards 1 or 2 o'clock.
You'll find this easier than pointing towards 12 o'clock.
Keep rotating the foot as you turn for your next step.
on 7 - turn and step with left foot - point towards 1 o'clock.
Keep going until you step back on 1.

Shaving off little bits of the turn is a technique used by most dancers and professionals. It helps you keep balance and you gain back what you shave off by using the momentum you already have to continue turning on your toe.

[Twilight_Elena]

Wow, you guys are superb! Lemme answer all that...
I've tried this on my own too, of course, but it's still sloppy. Actually, it's more difficult when I'm with a partner! Any sense in that?
Balance is a general prob of mine: both spins and walking turns. I've checked teh balance article, and it's great! I'm going to practice more on that.
Salsa teacher, not ballroom. Then again, my ballroom teacher has also shown me walking turns.
My salsa teacher said, too, that ending up not facing the partner is not a prob. The prob is the BALANCE.
Not 12 o' clock. Got that. I usually do it, but will focus on it.
Have salsa tonight! Will see how it goes... *nailbiting*

Twilight Elena

[Gentemer]

*nailbiting*
And you are surprised that you keep on falling?
No nailbiting during CBL! :-P

(but serious: how did it go?)

[Twilight_Elena]

It's 15:14 here. No party just yet.

Twilight Elena

[Twilight_Elena]

Went to the party yesterday. All in all, a good one! My CBL w/turn was just fine, which surprised me. Guess I was worrying too much and not dancing enough. In the words of every serious dancer: "Shut up and dance!"
Then we did setenda(sp?) w/turn and I must admit it's much more difficult. Ah, I suppose there will always be the next figure...

Twilight Elena

[Sabor]

general advice:

all footwork in dance is basically a walk.. it all comes down to a simple walking step.. either fwd, bwd, side, in place, curved..etc..

so, in general if u are confused, strip the motion down to normal walking steps.. and with practice u get the balance and technique/style to dance it smooth..and then put your flavor to it..

sometimes when i'm dancing with those who are having a hard time following.. i just ask her to walk with me..

[Lucretia]

I had the same problems as you have - last spring. I practiced a lot at home and I finally decided to "hand over the work to move my feets to my body". I (or my partner :wink: ) decided where to go - all I did was to keep the beat and move right,left,right,left .

The body is the expert of motion. Don't try to controll it too much. I guess this is wats in
"Shut up and dance!"

/lucretia

[Twilight_Elena]

Georgia (my ballroom teacher) sometimes says to us (usually during smooths, but it applies to salsa too) "just walk it." There's some truth in that. I'm trying to learn exactly that: Don't push it. If you do, it's not a dancing. It's a chore.

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

Went to the party yesterday. All in all, a good one! My CBL w/turn was just fine, which surprised me. Guess I was worrying too much and not dancing enough. In the words of every serious dancer: "Shut up and dance!"


See there you go!

Then we did setenda(sp?) w/turn and I must admit it's much more difficult. Ah, I suppose there will always be the next figure...

Twilight Elena

Setenta? If so perhaps you're doing Cuban style salsa? In which case ignore everything I said as the Dile Que No/CBL is similar but different. I could explain it as I do Cuban myself but best to get a video! hehe.

[Twilight_Elena]

We must be doing cuban style. Honestly, I have no idea what we're doing, 'xept that it's salsa. :P Shame on me, I know.
Actually, the dile que no is so similar to CBL that I thought the turns were also the same. Also felt very similar.
A small edit. Setenta w/turn is tricky IF the lead is clumsy. :? It's so close together that you can get injured or just mess the whole thing up. Been there. Done that. When done with my teacher, the result is SO smooth.

Twilight Elena

P.s. Azzey, do explain. I have no pocket money to spare on videos! Ah, the troubles of teenage economic dependence...

[azzey]

We must be doing cuban style.
P.s. Azzey, do explain. I have no pocket money to spare on videos! Ah, the troubles of teenage economic dependence...

Not necessarily, some teachers do mixed styles. i.e. a mix of Cross-body salsa (LA, NY, Puerto Rican are all pretty much the same apart from how you express the music) and little bits of Cuban style.

Others only teach one style, although you'll be hard pressed to find really good Cuban instructors unless either they come from Cuba/Miami, learnt from a Cuban instructor or Lived there at some point.

See the video clips here for examples of Cuban style:
http://salsaville.com/salc/video_clips/salc_video_clips.htm

or here for cross-body salsa styles:
http://www.salsamemphis.com/videoclips_world.html

Different styles are not something that is easy to explain no matter how many technical differences I tell you you'll only really 'get it' when you see it.

[Twilight_Elena]

Thankies for the videos! As part of the new and improved salsa rehab me, I won't watch the vids right now, but tomorrow. Today there's lots of studying to do. :D Makes me feel better, knowing I can do that.
Isn't there a general feeling about every style? Something you can describe? Is there a reference site/article for this?

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

Thankies for the videos! As part of the new and improved salsa rehab me, I won't watch the vids right now, but tomorrow. Today there's lots of studying to do. :D Makes me feel better, knowing I can do that.
Isn't there a general feeling about every style? Something you can describe? Is there a reference site/article for this?

Twilight Elena

Yes, there is a different feeling when dancing each style. NY, LA, Cuban. There are lots of small differences which add up to a big difference. It's mostly about listening and expressing the music differently in each style. Although there are also a lot of technical differences.

It's not really possible to describe the feeling of each style as people usually say the same things. e.g. "I feel the music more when I dance X style on Y beat". The the only real way to understand is to learn to dance in each style with instructors/dancers who only do that style. Even going to a club where they specialise might give you an idea.

Alternatively you could get an idea by watching professional dancers who dance that specific style really well. Buy a congress DVD or if you can't afford that there are lots of video clips of social dancing free on the internet.

However, there are lots of articles for the specialist styles which give you an idea of how the dancers think. Which affects their style.

LA style. http://www.salsaweb.com See the articles section.
NY style. http://www.salsanewyork.com/ourdancemusic.htm
Cuban style. http://www.salsaroots.com/articles.htm This is a place to start.

[Twilight_Elena]

Watched a couple. Hmm. LA is sort of... flashy, isn't it?

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

Watched a couple. Hmm. LA is sort of... flashy, isn't it?

Twilight Elena

Yes, influenced by West coast mentality. Although it's not all about tricks and dips like some people think.

NY style is cool like Newyorkers with lots of footwork (shines) influenced by Puerto Rican style from which it comes.

LA style is based on NY style with other bits of dances added and has only been around since early 1990's.

Cuban and Puerto Rican styles are the oldest and are the basis from which all others were developed. Musicians and dancers from the two islands collaborated and influenced each other, but are now widely different styles. Similar but different.

[Twilight_Elena]

Watched a couple. Hmm. LA is sort of... flashy, isn't it?

Twilight Elena

Yes, influenced by West coast mentality. Although it's not all about tricks and dips like some people think.

NY style is cool like Newyorkers with lots of footwork (shines) influenced by Puerto Rican style from which it comes.

LA style is based on NY style with other bits of dances added and has only been around since early 1990's.

Cuban and Puerto Rican styles are the oldest and are the basis from which all others were developed. Musicians and dancers from the two islands collaborated and influenced each other, but are now widely different styles. Similar but different.

Wound't it be better for abeginner to learn the oldest ones first, since they seem to be more solid and stable?

Twilight Elena

[Pebbles]

Wound't it be better for abeginner to learn the oldest ones first, since they seem to be more solid and stable?

Twilight Elena

I'm hoping that salsa will never be stable. It is always changing and evolving. If one day salsa is reduced to a set of instructions printed on dead trees, and everyone dances like they came out of a clone factory, I think the dance will be in trouble. In the mean time, pick whichever styles you like most, make them your own, and dance like no one's watching :)

[azzey]

Wound't it be better for abeginner to learn the oldest ones first, since they seem to be more solid and stable?

Twilight Elena

I'm hoping that salsa will never be stable. It is always changing and evolving. If one day salsa is reduced to a set of instructions printed on dead trees, and everyone dances like they came out of a clone factory, I think the dance will be in trouble. In the mean time, pick whichever styles you like most, make them your own, and dance like no one's watching :)

Good advice! Twilight - In Cuba the dance is always evolving. Once a dance stops evolving it dies. In fact Cuba was a breeding house for many of the dances you now see today, like Cha cha, Rhumba (the ballroom one) and many of the South american Salsa's like Columbian. Each country adds a little bit of their own native dance into the mix to make a new flavour. The basics of Salsa are still the same in each country though. So join us and make your own 'twilight' mini style. This is part of what makes dancing with different people so interesting, you never know quite what they're gunna do. :)

[azzey]

Wound't it be better for abeginner to learn the oldest ones first, since they seem to be more solid and stable?
Twilight Elena

For a beginner it would be better for them to learn whichever they like and is most available to them. Since the only way to get good at Salsa is to dance a *lot* AND get good instruction, the one with the most number of good dance partners is the one you should choose first. It takes a couple of years to get good even dancing only one style of Salsa, then you can branch out and learn other styles more in depth later on.

[Twilight_Elena]

Setenta w/turn update: I think the trick in it is that teh lead has very, and I mean VERY soft hand technique. Leading too strong is bad in this particular field.
Also, interesting tidbit of info. We're doing colombian style. Didn't know that! apparently, there's a small tap between the counts: 1-2-3-tap 5-6-7-tap. Any comments on that?

Twilight Elena

[vey]

We're doing colombian style. Didn't know that! apparently, there's a small tap between the counts: 1-2-3-tap 5-6-7-tap. Any comments on that?


Havn't heard about colombian style salsa, but "taps" on the 4th and 8th count are often used for instructional purposes, so beginners would get used to staying on beat, it can be also used as occasional styling...

[Sagitta]

Setenta w/turn update: I think the trick in it is that teh lead has very, and I mean VERY soft hand technique. Leading too strong is bad in this particular field.
Also, interesting tidbit of info. We're doing colombian style. Didn't know that! apparently, there's a small tap between the counts: 1-2-3-tap 5-6-7-tap. Any comments on that?

Twilight Elena

Talking of rueda or salsa? I actually prefer setenta moderno/complicado...one of those...to setenta.

I have seen many people do a tap on the 4th and 8th beats as a regular dancing style. I am not sure what style it is...and they can dance just as well without those taps.

[Twilight_Elena]

Setenta w/turn update: I think the trick in it is that teh lead has very, and I mean VERY soft hand technique. Leading too strong is bad in this particular field.
Also, interesting tidbit of info. We're doing colombian style. Didn't know that! apparently, there's a small tap between the counts: 1-2-3-tap 5-6-7-tap. Any comments on that?

Twilight Elena

Talking of rueda or salsa? I actually prefer setenta moderno/complicado...one of those...to setenta.

I have seen many people do a tap on the 4th and 8th beats as a regular dancing style. I am not sure what style it is...and they can dance just as well without those taps.

Talking of salsa. What's the difference between setenta moderno/complicado and normal setenta?
Yes, it's just the same without the taps, it's just a styling thing.

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

We're doing colombian style. Didn't know that! apparently, there's a small tap between the counts: 1-2-3-tap 5-6-7-tap. Any comments on that?

Twilight Elena

Colombian style is a simplified form of Cuban style. Unless your teacher is from Cali, Colombia - where they do a more showy version.

In most of Colombia they don't even do *any* turns. Just dance closely together (cheek to cheek) or do lots of body movement. That's what I mean by simplified. Not to disrespect the style.

Most western teachers who have done Colombian style then move on to learn and teach Cuban as it has the same basic steps, but more rich turn patterns.

There's a series of Colombian salsa videos which you can get from Amazon.com. The lady who is the teacher is recognised as an authority on the style, but I forget her name. You won't miss her anyway, as she's the only one with Colombian videos out.

[azzey]

What's the difference between setenta moderno/complicado and normal setenta?


Moderno is a 'modern' setenta and Complicado is any 'complicated' version of Setenta. I kid you not! Any move can be interpreted and made more complicated (i.e. 'Complicado') by the dancer, it doesn't have to be a fixed move. That's why enchufe complicado can have 10 different versions all correct in different regions of the country. That's the Cuban way of doing things. The name of the move is more a metaphor for how it should look/feel/be expressed.

Moderno is usually done by turning the girl behind and to the left of you, while Complicado is usually done by turning the girl behind and to the right of you at the end of the setenta.

You're lucky, I'm feeling in a helpful kind of mood today.

[Twilight_Elena]

In most of Colombia they don't even do *any* turns. Just dance closely together (cheek to cheek) or do lots of body movement. That's what I mean by simplified. Not to disrespect the style.


Sounds like his style - in bachata lessons he is all for doing nothing but the basic back, forth, sides and small circles. No turns, no fancy steps. Just that. Which is, IMO, good for bringing up the feeling of the dance.
And azzey, sorry for all the questions. I'm a pain, I know.

Twilight Elena

[azzey]

And azzey, sorry for all the questions. I'm a pain, I know.
Twilight Elena

No problemo. What's the point of knowledge if not to share it?
:)