Tango: How do you keep the hips from moving?

[Twilight_Elena]

I can't keep my hips from moving when I do ballroom tango. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's hard to restrain them! Any hints? What should I tighten? Should I hold my core more rigid? When I take a step backwards, they just.. turn!

Twilight Elena

[Sagitta]

I'm interested in this too. Those latin hips just cannot stop. :oops:

[tacad]

I can't keep my hips from moving when I do ballroom tango. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's hard to restrain them!


I'm interested in this too. Those latin hips just cannot stop. :oops:


:lol: :nope:

[Chris Stratton]

The hips *do* move in ballroom tango, just not in the same way as in latin. Tango would be a bit more cha-cha like than rumba (arrive already settled idea). The real key though would be learning the tango walking action, which is a function of both where you put your feet and how you move them.

[ReneeJoan]

I'd probably have to see what you're talking about to really understand the problem you're having, but my first advice would be to focus on keeping your energy and your body forward even as you take your body backwards. You stretch your foot to the back, about one foot length or so, no farther, and then take your whole body backwards as a single unit, pushing with your supporting foot, rather than trying to "reach" or "step" backwards. It's that "reaching" effort that twists your hips to the back.

Another mental image is to think of your hip pulling forwards even as your foot stretches back, so that you feel like your leg is being pulled in two directions at once. Also, keeping your hips open will help.

I'm not sure it this really addresses your question, since I can't see your body moving, so I'm only guessing.

Renee

[luh]

do you really want to _not_ use your hips?
I mean it happens sometimes to me that there is a little hip move when i do swing.. *looking a little embarrased away and do if i just said nothing*
better than those people who have to, and don't get it done. (i think of a very funny lesson ones in salsa, wow these guys had really big problems.. :lol:)
luh

[labelledanseuse]

I used to have a problem with keeping my hips still when doing Ballroom Tango, too. I have my hips a little more under control now, but they still move a bit. I keep my hips tucked right underneath me so that my spine is straight and I hold my core really tight. Stand next to something like a chair to support yourself, tuck in your hips and practice swinging your legs back and forth without moving your hips (it's similar to ballet exercises b/c in ballet, you don't move your hips when doing tondues, pliés, etc... Taking a ballet technique class helps a lot.) Then hold on to something sturdy and try reaching while keeping your hips still even if it means doing it really slowly to control your body.

[Chris Stratton]

Also, keeping your hips open will help.

?

[contracheck]

I can't keep my hips from moving when I do ballroom tango. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's hard to restrain them! Any hints? What should I tighten? Should I hold my core more rigid? When I take a step backwards, they just.. turn!

Twilight Elena
Assuming that you're a lady, this is not your fault but your partner's. If he places his right thigh and hip in the right place - almost inside the lady's crotch - the lady does not have the freedom to move her hips. Furthermore, since tango has a long contact point on the man's left side and lady's right side - from upper thighs to busts - the lady can't move her hips.

[Chris Stratton]

That's one school of thought, but there are others.

Do you collect with your knees interlaced or essentially outside partner? I've seen both taught, but outside seems to work much better.

[Chris Stratton]

Stand next to something like a chair to support yourself, tuck in your hips and practice swinging your legs back and forth without moving your hips

Actually, you do need to move your hips, because every other step in a basic walk is in a very pronounced CBMP.

The real trick is to turn the hip and move the leg, without letting the shoulders turn, or letting the location of your weight in your standing foot shift.

As man going forward, tuck the right knee behind the left as your prepare to move the left foot forward - turning the hip, but without letting the upper body turn, move or shift it's balance point. As Lady moving backward, tuck the right knee behind the standing left, similarly without disturbing the upper body or weight position. Then move the weight through the standing foot, extend the moving leg slightly further, and shift cleanly to the new foot. The next step follows the direction set up by this one, unwinding the hips, while a new hip action would commence on the CBMP step after that.

[Joe]

Also, keeping your hips open will help.

?
In PP, definitely.

[Twilight_Elena]

Yes, when I am led like that (knees intertwined, bodies close and all that) it's much harder to move the hips, so I practically don't move them. However, when I dance with some space between myself and my partner, they turn. It's been getting sort of better with time; I think tango technique groups have been the key. I try to do all those things, and hope it will work.

Twilight Elena

P.s. I don't suppose men have that problem too, do they?

[Chris Stratton]

I prefer a close hold, but with the kneecaps outside partner - this places the bodies very near each other, but probably without a long vertical line of contact if we want to keep our shoulders unbroken and spines vertically aligned.

In thinking more since last night, the hips need to be free to rotate independently of the upper body. However, they should not tilt much. This is most likely to be a problem in promenade, and the thing to do may be to use a mirror to internalize what it feels like to have the hips level when open to promenade. Another thing that can help is to work on keeping the weight on the inside of the standing foot. And stay "over" the hip without the kind of rumba settling where the pelvis drops and the hip itself pops out to the side.

[ReneeJoan]

By keeping the hips open, I meant maintaining proper turn out, as in ballet like someone mentioned above. The proper movement for the backstep in tango begins with a movement most similar to an arabesque. You have to keep both hips square and to the front, properly turned out, for it to look nice.

[Chris Stratton]

By keeping the hips open, I meant maintaining proper turn out, as in ballet like someone mentioned above. The proper movement for the backstep in tango begins with a movement most similar to an arabesque. You have to keep both hips square and to the front, properly turned out, for it to look nice.

Er, no. According to the initial question, we are talking about ballroom tango.

Generally one thigh is turned out, and the other turned *IN*.

Your feet have some trend towards being parallel except in transition cases, and that means that if your hips are not going to be aligned with them, then the angle away on one side must be matched by an angle towards on the other.

Another way of thinking of it - "knees veering in" precludes having turnout in both hips.

Double turnout is rare in any of the standard dances or closed hold smooth.

[contracheck]

However, when I dance with some space between myself and my partner, they turn.
Unless you do Thowaway, don't create space between the two partners. The platforms should be in contact at all time, otherwise you get markdown.

[Chris Stratton]

The spine should be vertical and aligned at all times, otherwise you get marked down.

(in other words... which goal is more important and which compromise acceptable all depends on who is judging - but since you can't target that, what it really depends on is who is teaching)

[Laura]

By keeping the hips open, I meant maintaining proper turn out, as in ballet like someone mentioned above. The proper movement for the backstep in tango begins with a movement most similar to an arabesque. You have to keep both hips square and to the front, properly turned out, for it to look nice.

Now I'm really confused. In your first sentence you say to maintain a ballet-style turnout, and in the last you say to keep them square. I think I'm having terminology issues that I just don't understand. Especially since when I hear about ballet-style turnout because in ballroom tango -- in all the dancesport ballroom dances -- you don't use turnout at all.

I also don't really understand what is meant by keeping the hips from moving. Which way are they moving Elena? Up and down, like in Latin dancing? Or forward and back?

One thing that might help is to think about what you are doing with your pelvic muscles. The pelvic muscles, especially the very low, very deep ones (the ones right around your private parts) need to be engaged, but not ridgid. It helps to think about them lifting upward and toward your spine. This doesn't mean to engage your psoas (the muscles in the front of your hlp joing) and tuck your butt under, rather, the aim is to keep the entire core area together so that the spine is straight and moves as a unit while the legs are free to move in the hip socket.

I think I'd need to see you dance to really understand what is going on, though.

[Chris Stratton]

Especially since when I hear about ballet-style turnout because in ballroom tango -- in all the dancesport ballroom dances -- you don't use turnout at all.

Actually, ballroom (both tango and the other dances) does make extensive use of turnout of the thigh against the hip, but it's assymetric turnout - one leg out, the other in. The only time I can think of when you might possibly have both thighs turned out is just after you have left a foot, but this position vanishes quickly as the trailing foot draws in.

Ballroom also uses a little bit of "broken" or ankle turnout, but that's actually so that a knee can act slightly towards the other even in a situation where it was desireable to leave the foot behind in an earlier orientation that has become a turned out position due to rotation of the hips. In particular, I'm thinking late in step one of the inside of a waltz turn - you can turn the foot in some as it's placed (which will become out as the hips turn), but you probably want your knee turned in slightly more, in order to use it in generating swing onto step two.

[Twilight_Elena]

By keeping the hips open, I meant maintaining proper turn out, as in ballet like someone mentioned above. The proper movement for the backstep in tango begins with a movement most similar to an arabesque. You have to keep both hips square and to the front, properly turned out, for it to look nice.

Now I'm really confused. In your first sentence you say to maintain a ballet-style turnout, and in the last you say to keep them square. I think I'm having terminology issues that I just don't understand. Especially since when I hear about ballet-style turnout because in ballroom tango -- in all the dancesport ballroom dances -- you don't use turnout at all.

I also don't really understand what is meant by keeping the hips from moving. Which way are they moving Elena? Up and down, like in Latin dancing? Or forward and back?

One thing that might help is to think about what you are doing with your pelvic muscles. The pelvic muscles, especially the very low, very deep ones (the ones right around your private parts) need to be engaged, but not ridgid. It helps to think about them lifting upward and toward your spine. This doesn't mean to engage your psoas (the muscles in the front of your hlp joing) and tuck your butt under, rather, the aim is to keep the entire core area together so that the spine is straight and moves as a unit while the legs are free to move in the hip socket.

I think I'd need to see you dance to really understand what is going on, though.

I get what you mean about the pelvic muscles, Laura. My hips tend to move backwards, like they open up in the Rumba. I, too, am confused over terminology, so I like your straightforward advice. Thanks!

Twilight Elena

[Chris Stratton]

I get what you mean about the pelvic muscles, Laura. My hips tend to move backwards, like they open up in the Rumba. I, too, am confused over terminology, so I like your straightforward advice. Thanks!


Due to the curved nature of ballroom tango walks, when you take the step backward onto your right foot, you must feel the hip turning in - the opposite of latin. The step back on your left foot could have a tiny bit of turnout, but if you are starting with latin tendancies it's probably safest to try to take that step without rotating the hips joint from the fairly neutral position where it ends up after the previous step. Step one has a feeling of curve in, while step two is straight, moving diagonally in the direction set up by step one.

[Laura]

So, Elena, would you say that when you step backward in tango, your hip is going with your leg? In other words, if you step back on your right foot, your right hip opens up with it?

If so, then what's going on is that you are sending your hip joint with your leg. In the Standard dances you keep the entire core together, so the hips stay with the spine. If your hip is going back with your foot, you are "reaching." Start by taking small steps by yourself. Engage your pelvic muscles -- just keep them activated and lifted. This isn't about making them hard and rigid, just keeping them lifted so that your aware of what they are and what they are doing. When you step back, feel how your leg moves in the hip joint. You want the leg to move backward in the joint without taking the hip with it. If you step back so far that you have to move your hip joint back to make the step, then you're stepping too large. Remember that tango is a stepping dance, not a swinging dance, so you don't want to step further than you can. As you improve, you can get more out of your tango steps by dancing lower in your knees.

Here's another thing to try to help you understand. Stand in front of a mirror and relax your shoulders and arms. Swing an arm forward and back. Notice that you can swing it so far away from you that you have to reach your shoulder forward, or that you can swing it so that the shoulder stays still (without you holding it rigid). That's kind of the difference we're talking about in using the legs.

Hope this helps!

[bordertangoman]

I was going to post a reply but all this talk of hips has given me a temperature or maybe its virus I have caught. I will think on it once I have cooled down :wink:

Later.. get your partner to hold your hips firmly at the side and keep them level as you walk back.
In tango you are allowed yaw but only if pivoting, but not pitch or bank.

[Chris Stratton]

In fact, not only do we not swing the hip to extend a leg in tango, we actually turn it to "shorten" the reach of the moving leg as we prepre to take the first step.

In the "swing dances" (waltz, foxtrot, quickstep, viennese), we then do turn the hip to extend the leg for step two - but not in tango. In tango we keep the orientation of the hip resulting from step one, and instead place the leg for step two in a position that extends this pre-existing hip orientation (sometimes referred to as aiming step two under the joined elbows)

[Twilight_Elena]

Laura, I'm actually realising that I know all that, just haven't concentrated them all that much! I have to dance with knees bent, moving the leg in the hip joint while keeping the hips still, and then pushing backwards with the other foot. It's all very clear in my head, but during social dancing, it gets to be so tiring after a while. My dance mate was a ballet dancer as a child, so it comes naturally for her. But for me... yikes. :? Guess I have to practice, practice, practice!

Twilight Elena

[bordertangoman]

Laura, I'm actually realising that I know all that, just haven't concentrated them all that much! I have to dance with knees bent, moving the leg in the hip joint while keeping the hips still, and then pushing backwards with the other foot. It's all very clear in my head, but during social dancing, it gets to be so tiring after a while. My dance mate was a ballet dancer as a child, so it comes naturally for her. But for me... yikes. :? Guess I have to practice, practice, practice!

Twilight Elena

Yes I was going to say that.........

[Chris Stratton]

My dance mate was a ballet dancer as a child, so it comes naturally for her. But for me... yikes. :? Guess I have to practice, practice, practice!

Considering that the habits you are fighting sound somewhat ballet-like, I'm not sure your friend is at an advantage at all on this particular subject. Besides ceasing to mis-use turnout, learning to fully use the heel is the other big ballet conversion issue.

[madmaximus]

I can't keep my hips from moving when I do ballroom tango. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's hard to restrain them! Any hints? What should I tighten? Should I hold my core more rigid? When I take a step backwards, they just.. turn!

Twilight Elena

I presume you're talking about unwanted hip rotation? Without knowing more details, here is what immediately comes to mind:

Look at how you are landing the moving foot's heel. A good part of how your hips rotate depend on how you land your foot and the rotation of the leg. On a lady's backward walk, if you rotate your leg (ie counter-clockwise if you're moving your Left leg back) it WILL open your hip.

Many other factors can affect hip rotation. One is not having a left-side lead when walking--especially coupled with inaccurate foot placement and leg rotation. Another is the ankle twist where the inside edge of the left toe contacts the floor and then rotating the entire foot to place the heel down directly--instead of the inside edge of the heel first and THEN the rest of the heel.


madmaximus[/i]

[Twilight_Elena]

I can't keep my hips from moving when I do ballroom tango. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's hard to restrain them! Any hints? What should I tighten? Should I hold my core more rigid? When I take a step backwards, they just.. turn!

Twilight Elena

I presume you're talking about unwanted hip rotation? Without knowing more details, here is what immediately comes to mind:

Look at how you are landing the moving foot's heel. A good part of how your hips rotate depend on how you land your foot and the rotation of the leg. On a lady's backward walk, if you rotate your leg (ie counter-clockwise if you're moving your Left leg back) it WILL open your hip.

Many other factors can affect hip rotation. One is not having a left-side lead when walking--especially coupled with inaccurate foot placement and leg rotation. Another is the ankle twist where the inside edge of the left toe contacts the floor and then rotating the entire foot to place the heel down directly--instead of the inside edge of the heel first and THEN the rest of the heel.


madmaximus[/i]

The foot twisting thing is an issue. Have been practicing latin so much my feet are almost naturally turning outwards. I'll try to control that.
Very good point, about foot landings!

Twilight Elena