Mad about salsa...but how do I get better? [Archive]

Snazz

09-22-2003, 07:59 AM

Hi,

I've been a reading the postings here, and I think they're great!! Keep it up!

I've started swing dancing but got into salsa 4 months ago when I moved and couldn't go to swing lessons any more. But, since I live in tokyo (which is notoriously expensive!!) I haven't been able to go salsa dancing as much as I liked. I try to practice some basic steps though...which leads to a problem. I don't if what I'm doing is right. I don't want to pick up bad habits that takes years to break.

So, I'd be really grateful if you could help me out with a couple of pointers.

1. I noticed that when I do the basic steps, my shoulders tend to move from up and down. I think it is partly because my arms are also moving. Is that okay, or am I suppose to keep my upper body straight.

2. I was taught the basic steps with the feet side by side, but there was this teacher who taught the step with the feet one in front of the other, as if I were walking on a tightrope. Which is right? I he does LA style salsa.

3. When I see people leading their partners I noticed that they move their arms a lot, but I've had some girls tell me that I'm not supposed to be moving my arms because it makes it hard for them to follow. In swing, we use our frames to move our partners. That's why we don't move our arms so much because it confuses the lead. Is that the same in salsa too?

4. If you know any good exercises for me to practice on my own, I'd be really grateful.

5. I learnt a lot about musicality in swing. Is there such a thing as that in salsa too?

Thanks!!

pygmalion

09-22-2003, 08:38 AM

Hi Snazz! Welcome to the forums!

Although I've been doing first ballroom-style and now club style salsa for couple years, there are several members of this forum much better qualified than I to answer your questions. So I am going to leave it to them.

I just want to extend to you a warm dance forums welcome! :D

I'm sure that, within a day or two, you'll have more responses than you can handle. :D

Thanks so much for joining us in the forums. "See" you again soon.

Jenn

borikensalsero

09-22-2003, 09:21 AM

Welcome to the Forums Snazz. :D

If classes and or clubs are that expensive then I would suggest purchasing a salsa video on-line. At least it will give you an idea of how your body should be moving.

1. Although there is a drop of the shoulders when you dance, it really isn't a significant one. Which leads me to think that you are probably trying to do attain cuban motion by moving the upper body(Shoulders) to create a swing of the hips. And/or doing the weird bend of the legs side to side, instead of bending the knees. Don't worry about the cuban motion (hips) right now, rather concentrate in understanding the basic step and the beat of the music. The cuban motion will come when you finally understand what your upper body and legs need to do to dance salsa.

The hands should never be moving faster than your legs. The more you move the hands the harder it will be for the lower body to move freely and as desired.

If you are not sure of how the body needs to move then stand up straight and only walk through the basic step. No motion of any kind except for the legs doing the basic. It will feel robotic, but it is best for you to understand the basic leg work right now. Only when you have mastered the basic steps do you need to start attempting any kind of cuban motion. Too many things going on at one time is too much right now.

2- The basic step can be to the sides as well as the forward/backwards, however, it is my opinion that you should try the forward/backwards that you mentioned on Question 2 first. Although they are both basic steps, usually when someone mentions the basic step of salsa, they are referring to back and forth. (one foot in front of the other) your teacher taught you. I am assuming that you also mean going backwards to complete the basic.

3- The motions you are referring to of the arms in partner work are most likely signals a leader must give a follower to make her aware of the direction she needs to go before performing any given move. Although there is a lot of hand-leading in salsa the frame also plays a vital role in leading techniques. If your arms are moving carelessly while doing partner work, you will miss his signals as well as he will have a harder time, or even fail to give you proper signals.

Hope the 3 answers give you a little light.

Snazz

09-22-2003, 11:22 AM

Wow!! Thanks for the answers....didn't expect to get a reply this quick. :D

Sorry, I wasn't clear about what I meant about the basic steps. What I wanted to ask was the position of the feet for the forward/backward steps. Most people I just end up with the feet close together side by side, but the one taught by one of my teachers was always having one feet in front of the other as if walking on a narrow plank. So, which is right?

Also, do you have any recommendations for salsa videos?

Thanks!

salsarhythms

09-22-2003, 11:54 AM

Hi Snazz,

First of all, welcome to the forums, it's great to have you
here...

Now, I read your question regarding the basic step, and I saw
borinken respond...I'm not too sure about your second post, but
if it helps, I've attached an explanation of the Basic Step as taken
from the salsanewyork web site...bear in mind this is the basic
step as done On 2...

1st beat of the measure - The man steps back with his left foot. The woman steps forward with her right foot.

2nd beat of the measure - The man steps farther back with his right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward with his body = "breaks forward on 2". The woman steps farther forward with her left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean back with her body = "breaking back on 2".

3rd beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his left foot, while his body is moving forward. The woman steps in place with her right foot, while her body is moving backward.

4th beat of the measure - No steps.

5th beat of the measure - The man steps forward with his right foot, in front of his left foot. The woman steps backward with her left foot, behind her right foot.

6th beat of the measure - The man steps farther forward with his left foot, then changes direction, starting to lean backward with his body = "breaks back on 6". The woman steps farther back with her right foot, then changes direction, starting to lean forward = "breaks forward on 6".

7th beat of the measure - The man steps in place with his right foot, while his body is moving backward. The woman steps in place with her left foot, while her body is moving forward.

8th beat of the measure - No steps

SDsalsaguy

09-22-2003, 12:42 PM

Hi Snazz…let me add my welcome as well! Glad to have you with us :D

Here’s my take on your questions…

1. Shoulder motion in salsa is OK, but what you don’t want is a side-to-side up and down. It’s also fine for the shoulders to stay still, but a rolling motion that comes form the foot/leg/body use is also acceptable. I agree with Boriken though, starting off with a more still upper torso is probably best.

2. Is it possible that these are really the same thing? What I’m getting at is that one foot isn’t really placed in front of the other if the feet are parallel to each other (unless, perhaps, you’re stepping across your center line for a shine or to set up a spin, etc.), but it can look like they are if one is dancing with turnout and tight foot placement. Basically the heel of your front foot would be in a direct line forward from the toes of your back foot. From the front or the rear it will then look like the feet are in front of each other but, if you straighten them both back to parallel, they really are still on different tracks, and not really as if on a tightrope.

3. I would say that salsa is closer to swing in this regard then it is different. Yes, there are some arm patterns that may only end up using fingers to signal changes but, by and large, its frame and center that direct the dancing. What you may be seeing is a natural swinging of the arms that comes form the foot and body actions (basically the same idea as how our arms do have a natural swing when we walk) but and intentional or extra arm swinging does make it more difficult to sense what signals you are trying to transmit…basically think of it as a car with its turn signal left on.

4. Hmmm, not any that I think I can communicate well in writing. I’ll ponder this one though, and see if I can come up with something for you.

5. Yes, yes, and YES!

Hope that helps, and keep us posted :D

brujo

09-22-2003, 02:38 PM

Also, do you have any recommendations for salsa videos?

It really depends on the style and level that you are in. I highly recommend checking out the salsa video review site (http://www.salsavideoreviews.org)

Danish Guy

09-22-2003, 05:08 PM

Sorry, I wasn't clear about what I meant about the basic steps. What I wanted to ask was the position of the feet for the forward/backward steps. Most people I just end up with the feet close together side by side, but the one taught by one of my teachers was always having one feet in front of the other as if walking on a narrow plank. So, which is right?
As I read your post, both ways is right.

Placing the feet side by side on the break is the normal for the basic mambo steps the “on 1”.

Placing one foot in front of the other, or “hovering” over the break is the normal for the “on 2”.

Take a look at what they are dancing on at the local clubs, and go for the style they use. To learn salsa it’s important to dance and have fun at the salsatheque.

Salsarythms have a great "on 2" description.
Here’s my short to Mambo on 1:

Start standing relaxed, feet a little bit apart from each other. This is home, and where to spend the break. Don’t take to large steps, and don’t worry about centimetre detail.

1. Left foot forward.
2. Right foot replaced.
3. Left foot home
4. Pause.
5. Right foot back
6. Replace left foot.
7. Right foot home
8. Pause

Also, do you have any recommendations for salsa videos?
Take a look at some of the links under websites. There is one with links to free dance video clips.

Welcome to the forum.

youngsta

09-22-2003, 06:31 PM

Ummm yeah, they answered everything!! Welcome to our house Snazz :D

Black Sheep

09-22-2003, 09:13 PM

Snazz.
I'm a great believer in self teaching, given a few basic guide lines, and here are your basic guide lines:
1) locate the first Quarter beat of each bar of 4 beats; it is the most predominant sounding.( 1,) 2, 3, 4
2) take the first three steps with the 1st three beats of the bar in place, do not move on fourth beat, hold it in place;
3) as you step in unison with first three beats, move your feet in any position and let your body go lose in any gyrations you want;
4) eventually you will find yourself stepping forward with your left foot on the 1st beat of a bar, and stepping back on with your right foot on the 1st beat of the second bar of music.
5) dance in front of a mirror without a partner as often as you can, and you will begun to get creative.
6) When out with a partner doing the Salsa, stay in open position away from your partner and do your thing, Eventually you will get the hang of it and with the help of a few partners, you'll become more original and freer than if you paid heavy money to some charlatan teacher who will do you more harm than good. I believe dancing like any education should be free. I never paid for a ballroom dance lesson in my life, and I do them all. Lots of luck, and get out and do it NOW!
Black Sheep, Free dance lessons for the masses, and war will become obsolete.

Snazz

09-23-2003, 05:28 AM

Wow!

Now, I'm overwhelmed. No really, thanks a lot. I really appreciate your answers. :) I think I got most of them, although it's a little difficult to visualise some of the explanations.

About the on 1 and on 2, this is the first time I'm hearing about it. From your explanations though, I think I'm doing the on 1.

Actually, I live in tokyo right now, where I got my first taste of salsa. So, I'm quite curious to know if there're any differences in the types of salsa danced in different countries.

Black Sheep

09-23-2003, 03:22 PM

Snazz,
You are obviously on the Salsa beat when you break on '1'.
If you break and accent on '2' you are syncopating and are on a Mambo beat.
Salsa Music is too fast a tempo to do Mambo to. I have done it but it does not feel good to me. The Mambo music of Tito Puente, and although he is the best known, I do not consider him a top Mambo band, but at least you can tell the difference in the beats (tempos) of the two dances. Thanks for your feed back. Cherck my web site <WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM>
Black Sheep, how I love that Latin Beat!

Danish Guy

09-23-2003, 03:23 PM

Actually, I live in tokyo right now, where I got my first taste of salsa. So, I'm quite curious to know if there're any differences in the types of salsa danced in different countries.

There are a lot of different styles of Salsa, from the way it is danced in the Cuban villages, to Havana, to Columbia, to L.A, and to the New York Nightclubs. The difference can be so major, it can be difficult to dance together. But there’s also a lot in common. What you expect from the different styles is divergent from place to place. Many places is blending the different styles, taking what they think is the best from the different styles, and this way creating their own.

So dance, learn, and most important, have fun with it.

Danish Guy

09-24-2003, 04:24 AM

Found this link to the different styles question.

http://tosalsa.com/forum/articles/article010204salsaStyles.html

sanji

09-26-2003, 02:15 AM

I've started swing dancing but got into salsa 4 months ago when I moved and couldn't go to swing lessons any more. But, since I live in tokyo (which is notoriously expensive!!) I haven't been able to go salsa dancing as much as I liked.

Hi Snazz,

I, too, post in this forum for the first time, and also enjoy reading it for the last weeks. And I, too, live in Tokyo, which although expensive, is a really interesting place to learn / dance salsa. If you are interested, let me know, I can suggest you nice places (not too expensive) to learn and improve LA style.

And I also would loke to get better, after about 2 months of lessons twice a week. I have 2 main problems.
- First, I absolutely can not count, and basically rely on mt partner to do so (I know, that's not the best). Do you know if it is possible to find on the WEB salsa music on which the beats are clearly stated, for learning?
- Second, I like to learn new patterns... but almost immediately forget them. I found a nice web site with the complete description of patterns (http://www.perennial.com/pz/Dance/SalsaStepFrame.html), but the fact that English is not my native language (as you could guess by reading my post, probably) and that there is no movie nor scheme attached to the patterns make them difficult for me to understand. Do you know a good combinaison of text / small movie to just learn new patterns and have fun doing so? I checked some of the stuff sold on the net, but nothing seemed attractive.

Any suggestion would be really appreciated.

And Snazz: perhaps we can meet at a lesson one day :wink:

sanji

pygmalion

09-26-2003, 02:20 AM

Wow! I'm so glad I logged in in the middle of my night, just so I could meet you! :D Welcome to the forums sanji! :D :D

SDsalsaguy

09-26-2003, 03:01 AM

Great to have you joining us sanji! :D

And don't be concerned about your english...clearly you speak "dance" just like the rest of us! :D :D :D

salsaForfun

09-26-2003, 03:14 AM

Hi Sanji,

to count correctly you need to understand when the repetive sequence of salsa music starts. Once you identify the sequence and then you know the speed/tempo you can count correctly. For this you need to recongnize the instruments played in the salsa music. I will name two interesting songs and some training medias that might help you:
the song "otra oportunitad" from Jimmy Bosch is very good. Not fast and you can hear the instruments distinctively. Cheo Feliciano has also the song Nabori which is also good.

There are a few Training CDs out there:
Mike Bello has a set of two CD --> www.mambofello.com : one of the CD explains the differents intruments. the second cd has counting along the song one time and one time without counting.

Jai and Candy have a counting CD too --> www.jaicandy.com (each song is played in different speed (3 actually) and for each song it is first played with whole counting (1-8) then counting only 1 and 5 (good for dancing on 1) then counting only 2 and 6 (good for on2 dancing). And there is also one time without counting. Good for practice

Eddie Torres has a CD called Ear Training CD --> www.eddietorres.com. Here the counting schme is the same as jai and candy cd but song is played only at one speed. He add 8 songs without counting for practice. An intro to the clave is also given.

www.salsarhytms.com has also a multimedia ebook which gives you a very good way to understand the instruments played in salsa and helps counting. From my experience it is very intuitive and helped me a lot. You need a computer for it.

Danish Guy

09-26-2003, 03:26 AM

Wellcome Sanji

You speak dance loud and clear. :D

I will spare Salsarythm this time, and give you a link to his page.

http://www.salsa-rhythms.com

There's some free stuff, and it looks like they got fine product. Besides Salsarythm is moderator of this forum, and contribute with a lot.

See this thread for more rhythm tips.

http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=469

Check the 7 tips postings too.

Snazz

09-26-2003, 12:21 PM

Hi Sanji,

Welcome to the forum!

About your questions, I think I'll leave the answering to the experts. I've just kinda started too, so I don't think I'm in a position to give advice. But, as you can see from the answers here, there's no shortage of help. Thanks everyone!!

You can download clips from the following sites:
http://www.how2salsa.com/
http://www.salsamafia.com/index.html?http://www.salsamafia.com/Frame_Home.php
Also, thanks a lot for the link to the description of patterns. It's great as a reference!

About dancing in tokyo, I usually dance at el cafe latino in roppongi, or at motomachi zero in yokohama. However, I've been able to dance only once a week, since I live pretty far away (in Yokosuka). How about you? If you know some cheaper places to dance, I'll definitely be interested. Yes, we should meet up sometime.

sanji

09-29-2003, 10:36 PM

About dancing in tokyo, I usually dance at el cafe latino in roppongi, or at motomachi zero in yokohama. However, I've been able to dance only once a week, since I live pretty far away (in Yokosuka). How about you? If you know some cheaper places to dance, I'll definitely be interested. Yes, we should meet up sometime.

Hi Snazz,

Obviously, it is quite a distance from Yokosuka to Roppongi. I live in Kawagoe Saitama-ken, so I also need to travel a lot to go dancing...

El Cafe Latino is nice, but get quickly crowded during WE. Never been to lesson there. I usually go to Shinjuku or another place in Roppongi for the lessons. Basically, the cost for 5 lessons of 1.5 hour each is 10000 yens, including 1 drink / lesson.

We perhaps should continue this discussion via email, as I am not sure the other people here are interested ;) As soon as I understand how to send an email to a member of this forum...

Everybody, thanks for posting the links, very interesting indeed...

sanji

Snazz

09-29-2003, 11:02 PM

Hi Sanji,

Yes, I agree, we should continue this through email. Just do a lookup for my name, and you should be able to see my email address there.

pygmalion

10-10-2003, 09:06 AM

Danish Guy

10-10-2003, 09:34 AM

Okay. So I'm not in Japan, but I do love salsa. What's the best way for me to improve? Of course, I've got my basic moves together, and a few show-off things up my sleeve. But the ballroom/salsa transition is no way complete. So what do I do? Take lessons? If so, where? If not, what then?

I will recommend trying some workshops and salsa festivals if there is anything near you.

But the best way is a on the dance floor in the salsateques.

pygmalion

10-11-2003, 11:47 AM

Thanks, Danish Guy. There's actually a ballroom lady teacher here who runs a "club" salsa group class. I'm going to check her out, and see what I see. She focuses on partnership, which I like. It remains to be seen if her style really is club. *shrug*

Snazz

10-13-2003, 02:17 AM

Hi,

I've been dancing for nearly half a year and I began to realise recently, that my enjoyment of the dance depends on how it feels when I'm dancing with my partner. It's as if I'm judging my partner, and in a sense blaming her for the way she dances, if I don't feel good during the dance. (I don't say it out, of course) I've heard that the real good dancers are able to dance well with their partners, and make them look good regardless of their dancing ability (or lack of it).

I suppose what I would like to know is that;
1. Is it possible to dance with someone who doesn't dance well (which is kinda relative) and still feel good about it?
2. How do you get to that level where you can dance with an average dancer (or even a beginner) and make them shine?

Cheers!

youngsta

10-13-2003, 02:26 AM

I can dance with anyone and have fun, I just adapt to her level. You can have a great connection just doing the basic. It's not a competition out there, it's about making sure she gets her fix. I've only been dancing a little over a year now, but I believe at around the 1 year point (depending on how much you actually dance monthly) you can make a beginner shine. And when you do...boy will you be on her dancecard in sharpie black!!

Snazz

10-13-2003, 02:40 AM

borikensalsero

10-13-2003, 10:20 AM

Hi,

Tx for the reply, youngsta. So is it just a matter of time and practice? I've been dancing once (sometimes twice) a week for the past half year. Any tips about how to make your partner feel good as well as yourself when dancing?

I think it could be a cultural thing too. Over here, people tend to be a bit more reserved so sometimes, it's difficult to tell how they feel when they dance. As in they don't show it on their faces.

Expressionless dancing...it gets on my nerves, sometimes.

Snazz... The way to feel make your partner shine isn't per se, how you make them look as per someone eyes, but how you make your partner feel. If you can manage to pass your love for the music and energy during a song to your partner you guys will shine, no matter how much you lack or don't lack in skill.

Now, if you are worried about an ego boost of how many moves you make a woman do, then it will take about a year. The year ins't to learn moves, but to get comfortable with your place in the music. You have to find your nitch, where you know how you want to dance, and what it will take for you to enjoy a dance. At first when you are learning you never seem to fulfill that satisfaction, the blame usually falls on the other person and not the self. To years down the line dance 1 song and get more satisfaction than dancing an entire night as a beginner. The reason is that you have found your place as a dancer and a philosophy has usually been fromed. Your worries will be about loving the music and the dance than making anyone look good, hence the worry-less world will cause your partner to feed from your positive energy ending up with both of you Shining.