How to remember all material when leading?

[Ron Obvious]

I've been taking lesson from 2-7 times a week for almost a year, and now I'm starting to shift the balance more to dancing outside lessons, "writing my own material".

The problem is I don't have enough, it only last like 5 minutes or two dances, then I'm beginning to make the same moves again. I have learned more moves than that, but I never can remember them while dancing. Do you guys keep a dancing log book or something, or do you have all the moves etched in your spines?

I feel bad dancing with the same girl more than a couple of dances, because then I've run out of all i know. And it also feels bad to switch to the next girl and start doing the same moves. Aren't you supposed to tailor all the moves to the partner whom you're dancing with, so that she feels more unique?

[Slawek]

Do not worry about repeating moves. It is not important how many different turn patterns you know but how do you lead them. Also if you look to the dance from the follower's perspective then often just one simple change in the turn pattern make it completely different. So instead trying to perform every turn pattern you learned it will be better if you try to improvise. Even if 90% percent of the moves you will invent this way won't be very interesting the rest 10% will become your own "trade mark".

As for remembering turn patterns. Some time ago I decided to describe all moves I learned in a kind of log. But when I bought video camera it turned out that it is much better way to archive everything.

I don't belive that you should tailor your moves to different partners. Of course you should tailor them to their dance level. But if you look at the clips with great leaders (like Orville Small, Milton Cobo etc.) then you will see that each of them have their own collection of moves that is repeating with different partners.

[Twilight_Elena]

IMO, the number of moves you know is not at ALL important, and I believe this to be so very very true. I've danced the salsa with a number of leads, men and women, and have concluded to this: it's not quantity. It's always, always quality.
I have enjoyed rumbas that were just the simple boxstep. I have adored tangos that were just 3-4 moves. I have aboslutely HATED cha-cha's that had every move imaginable crammed in them (I couldn't even follow them!). And all that is the same in salsa.
If you have been doing salsa lessons for a year now, you probably know many moves already. The point now is to add some "salsa" to it! :wink: :P Salsa is about the spice, the flavour, the style! If you give to your lady all you've got, you're going to do just fine.
Oh, and a pointer I would love to get printed ona t-shirt (in the words of my salsa teacher): "Ladies are not sacks of potatoes. Treat them smoothly, softly. Don't push them around. Just give them a nudge and they'll follow you. They KNOW."

Twilight Elena

[sync]

Ron,

I'm new to dancing but I think I can speak from general experience. If you are feeling the music and you are connecting with your partner, you only need to do a few moves and your partner will love it.

[Ron Obvious]

ok, thanks for your replies, they also all had very much quality, and not just quantity. Some very good points indeed.

[Salsaonone]

I think it is more frustrating on the leader's end to repeat move (which we all do), than for the follower....Also, when I go slasa dancing and the dance floor is extremely crowded, I have to forget about any moves I have, even if I am trying to work out a new move, or just do something different, it doesnt happen. There is no space. If I did attempt moves that I like, I would be putting not only myself at risk of injury, but more importantly my partner who im throwing into the fire, and the people around me. Alot of times when it is really crowded, the more novice dancers are a danger because they don't realize how little space they have to dance in without risking accidents. Anyway, I am not an elite salsa dancer, but I have my own style and my own favorite moves, but they all go away when there is no space and I work on how creative I can be with the basic step. Its amazing how creative you (I) can be....sometimes I feel bad that I wasnt able to dance more than the basic, or my versions of it...but its just not worth the injury risk. Especially when the song is 8 or more minutes long...but I have never had a complaint about my dancing when all I could do was basics and basic variations....in fact, they have always wanted to dance with me again....but if you have ADD like the rest of us, it can be hard on us.. :wink:

[Houdinni]

Don't worry about that.

Even though in the last month or so, I've been receiving lots of praises (still ain't sure if they're deserved or not since I've never saw myself dancing, and consider myself a so-so dancer...), I never seem to be able to remember more than 6 combinations at any given time!

If I learn a new one, somehow one of the previous six just slips my mind in oblivion, where it will stay until an unknown time.

Still, 6 combinations and triangle turns (does it translate like this?) are more than enough to make anyone have a perfetly satisfying dance, and the only drawback is that sometimes you get tired of doing the same moves, so keep *******ing the 6 you'll use for the night! :)

[gte692h]

ok, thanks for your replies, they also all had very much quality, and not just quantity. Some very good points indeed.

i've been dancing for about a year and a half as well. what i did was to make a list of all the moves I know. I classified the moves like this:

1. one set of moves when i forget what to do (safety moves). they are usually just basics, simple turns, sliding doors, fifth positions, crossbodies, etc
2. and then another set of the moves that i seem to like, and execute well. these are 3 moves that i love doing, and i can lead them well.
3. the difficult, technical moves, that I don't enjoy, but since i have learnt them, they are there in my repertoire..

then i switched on the music, and imagined i was dancing with a partner, and i just did the footwork for my moves. I practiced category 1 to death. worked a lot on my turning and balance. Then i started on the second category of moves. Mostly, i practice the first two categories. the third one, i practice in the clubs, with merengue. some day, when i really get my simpler moves down, i'll move up technically.

i am settling more towards a simplistic style, that is not too flashy. so I like to focus on elegance, rather than showing off. a lot of my moves are crossbodies, turns, etc, very simple ones. But i make it look good, with a lot of my personal variations, upright posture and really smooth cuban motion. i rarely do fancy moves.

as you dance, observe the guys whose style matches the style you would like. In my case, i loved to watch the old men dance, they were always so elegant, excellent posture, very simple moves, but those moves were led with such finesse and assurance, the woman would be mesmerized. Add to that the fact that they were old, so they really enjoyed being the woman, they really valued dancing with her.

That is what I want to emulate, and so I have been working towards that kind of style. Hope this helps.

[azzey]

The problem is I don't have enough, it only last like 5 minutes or two dances, then I'm beginning to make the same moves again. I have learned more moves than that, but I never can remember them while dancing. Do you guys keep a dancing log book or something, or do you have all the moves etched in your spines?


I've been dancing 3 years and am at the intermediate-advanced stage where I am pushing hard to become advanced (i.e. teacher level).

What I did was to download as many video clips of Professional salsa dancers as I could (I now have a collection of over 800). There are many web sites which have free video clip collections on the internet.

Also buy one or two DVD's of dancers who's style you like. See http://www.salsafever.co.uk as an example of a good shopping site.

Then watch watch watch and visualise you doing each move with an immaginary partner. Having so much more quality material will give you inspiration in so many areas of your dancing, not just moves. Also in styling, timing, leading etc. Because you'll see how the Professionals do it.

Also, you'll be able to check whether you're doing the move right, leading it well etc when you come back from a dance, or bone up on new material just before you go out to try with new partners.

Lists are ok, but they miss out so much of the subleties of the material you learned in class. Also, even the greatest local teacher is not usually up to the standard of some of the Professionals out there.

If the move looks too complicated then take it apart and only do a bit of it. Chip away each and every time you're out and eventually you'll find the moves easy and can start adding more.

Remember though, in the end quality is more important than quantity.

Timing, quality of basic steps, posture, connection with your partner/the floor/the music, leading, dancing to the music, styling etc. are what you need to concentrate on for the simplest of moves. This is part of what makes a great dancer look great.

[tacad]

Sometimes , if I let myself be inspired by the music and/or the beautiful lady,
I will do different moves than I've learned. This is not really answering the question you've asked, Ron Obvious, but this in addition to many of the suggestions above is how dancing for me remains fresh and alive.

[DanceMentor]

I think much of remembering the material when leading comes from lots of repetition. This is where group classes, private lessons and practice time with a partner can make a huge difference.

[youngsta]

The best thing is to NOT remember the moves! Concentrate on the basic elements that make up each pattern. Once you have them down you can interpret the music any way you want with the building blocks.

[Sagitta]

If I am not inspired I do the same tired moves...but when I connect moves come out from left and right. We really dance. If I dance well when not connected it is more about a competitive attitude. That's the wwy it is. I don't bother to remmber teh moves. As youngsta said if you know the basics and can stitch them together in many different ways and let the music guide you there isn't much else that you need.

[Sabor]

all good things come in time and experience.. repertoire building needs time.. years infact to be so comfortable that u play with moves like molten butter

that said,

its how u do it, rather than what u do

your movement needs to come from the music, and then u adjust that with your partner.. in time u react to it like second nature

keep an open relaxed fun focussed mind set.. do what u need to do to put yourself 'in the mood' whatever it is, have a beer, yoga, some jokes, whatever works for u

"Free your mind and the rest will follow"

[DanceMentor]

I might add that, if possible, try to get a variety of instruction, and this will lead to a greater variety of moves.

[Sagitta]

I might add that, if possible, try to get a variety of instruction, and this will lead to a greater variety of moves.

True. :)

[Lofland]

Let her do shines two or three periods during the dance, that takes some of the pressure off.

Just do the basic and strike up a conversation!

I have a list of every pattern and every styling move. Before I go to a club I write down a few moves I haven't used recently on a small slip of paper, so I can sneak a peek at them between dances.

Mix and match the moves in your patterns. Make a list of moves start from closed position, moves that start from crossed-hand hold, moves that start from open position, etc. That will show you which parts can be linked together.

Try to do everything Edie the Salsa Freak says to do in her article about leading;

http://www.dancefreak.com/partner/how_to_satisfy_a_woman.htm

[Alias]

What I do in some salsa dances (Cuban Casino, cross-body-lead slotted salsa) (and some swing dance) is to compare and classify moves, then instead of a lot of separated moves I get only some moves with parameters (as hand holdings).

If the type and variant of salsa was specified, then I would have been able to help more with some examples (is this correct english?).

Remembering moves and finding on the fly the next move to do is the challenge of the leader when beginning to dance outside a class (without a pattern), there you need some focusing (later on this will no longer be needed).
One way is to add new moves one by one, one by party, you decide of one new move to work on at tonight party and you try to remember to put it among the moves you're doing tonight.

And please followers understand that for the leader, the free mind is gained by the ability to choose on the fly the next move among the main possibilities (instead of finding yourself limited into a narrow choice, with this awful feeling of always repeating the same few moves), this leads the leader to try inserting all the moves he knows (or the last moves he learned).
When this initial phase is over then he can dance with some simple moves (still having the free mind because he knows he could do others if he wanted to) (and anyway the choice of moves is not a problem anymore).

As for remembering the moves seen in class, you can in fact note down the new moves you've seen today (otherwise you can forget it) and for that purpose you have to find out how to note them (see also the "Describe salsa moves (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=6770)" topic), another more passive way is to wait to see the same move again and again until you recognize it then remember it.

[HF]

Feeling is most important. But technique also ... 8)

If I just dance what comes to mind without any systematics it will reduce itself to less and less patterns because I simply forget the old ones. So I defenitely need a simple and effective way for remembering them.

My method is:
- A small and simple video camera that produces MPG4 videos that can be easily stored in my computer
- Now and then I put the patterns together to 8-double-bar-blocks and memorize them (one block is 8*8 beats, sometimes also 12*8 or 16*8). I make up a little story about the numbers, i.e. the "2" is a pattern that starts with a double spin, the "4" remembers me to a square and therefore stands for a routine I learned from SuperMario ... :P, and as SuperMario is traveling around the world, my "5" is a pattern where the lady and the man change place several times. And so on. A little like mnemotechnics.

Usually I combine basic elements freely to the music. But when I run out of spontaneous ideas I use these blocks as a backup, of which I currently have 15 or so. Hope this helps anybody out there.