Salsa lead/follow technicalities more advanced than ballroom

[dancingman]

Before I begin, let me qualify that I dance ballroom latin, ballroom standard and salsa. This above statement is NOT made by me.

Apparently in another Salsa forum (not Dance Forums), one of these young talented Salsa kids (trained by Gupson Piere) who raised quickly thru the ranks in a few years to become one of the top dancers in his country made this statement. He don't dance other dances at all. Some of his statements:

"Whether I can convince you or not, doesn't bother me, I have shown u, that moves that are LEADABLE in salsa are more complex than ballroom, to which even you yourself admitted. Whether its because of lack of emphasis on leading turn patterns in ballroom is immaterial. The fact remains, salsa lead/follow technicalities are more advanced than ballroom. "

"Ballroom dancing's attraction is in the nice lines, the picture perfect poses, etc. Not in the lead/follow technique. Salsa has it all over ballroom dancing in the lead/follow department."

Personally I can't agree with this at all, and I've told him in no uncertain terms. However, I don't think that one dance is better than another, just different. I love all of them. But this guys just loves to bash ballroom. And since he's well respected in his community, the rest of the newbies will tend to believe him and get a warped idea of ballroom.

I'll like your opinion on this.

[DanceMentor]

Yes, this guy is "begging" for controversy. Almost ANY dance can be taken to a high level. When it comes to something like standard, the people who have taken it to the highest level spent more than 10 years doing it, because there are so many factors involved that I believe extend far beyond the complexity of salsa. Regardless, I'd like to see this guy compete in standard if he is such an expert. I think it is better that we (he) accept that each has its own challenges, and that each is beautiful in its own way.

[dancingman]

You can find the forum at this link:

http://groups.msn.com/grupolatin/salsa1.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2037&LastModified=4675510927386501290

The poster is "Tze Yi"

[DanceMentor]

Well, it looks like they are having some interesting discussion about body isolation and Afro-Cuban motion, but aren't these same priciples also important in Latin in the ballroom arena? What makes salsa different? If anything, I have seen that it is less of a science, and more of a social dance. Your thoughts?

[Chris Stratton]

I can think of many examples where his criticism of ballroom would be right on... but I can also think of examples where it is way off base.

[Sagitta]

I can think of many examples where his criticism of ballroom would be right on... but I can also think of examples where it is way off base.

It would be good to have examples of both. I have done too little ballroom to do so, myself. Thanks. :)

[dancingman]

Now he's saying this:

"Ballroom is very competitive, most ballroom dancers train for competitions more than for social dancing, focus for ballroom dancers is posture, poses, and competition. Now, if an instructor's focus is competitive dancing, that is how he teaches his students too.

Salsa on the other hand, due to lack of competitions, mainly focus on social dancing ONLY. So a salsa dancer would pride him/herself on the ability to lead/follow everything you see on the dance floor. So, like I explained to Rev, for a ballroom dancer to say that Ballroom dancing has an equal or higher level of lead/follow technique than salsa, is a slap in the face for a salsa dancer, who's main focus is lead/follow. "

Apparently he does not know that in competitive ballroom dancing, floor craft is highly essential. A competitive ballroom dancer who cannot lead/follow will be out within the first round, either by the judges or knocked down by other competitors. The art of lead and follow in ballroom is so well executed in many couples that you would never know that they had changed their routine and direction to avoid other couples (meaning that they had great floorcraft). The figures also look impossibly difficult and thus many would assumed that its purely choreography. No doubt much is choreography, but much is also lead and follow and the follower has absolutely no idea of what will come next or where will it goes to at times.

[newbie]

Dunno, our (social) ballroom teacher teaches us salsa as part of the latin dances (salsa, cha-cha, samba, rhumba, paso-doble) so I just can't see how salsa would be different from, say, cha-cha in terms of lead-follow technicalities. Quite often during our monthly practise/party, unknown women from other dance studios come, we invite them and lead them into steps that are new to them, and they follow.

[dancingman]

Dunno, our (social) ballroom teacher teaches us salsa as part of the latin dances (salsa, cha-cha, samba, rhumba, paso-doble) so I just can't see how salsa would be different from, say, cha-cha in terms of lead-follow technicalities. Quite often during our monthly practise/party, unknown women from other dance studios come, we invite them and lead them into steps that are new to them, and they follow.

Precisely. Whether as a social ballroom dancer or as a competitive ballroom dancer, the ability to lead and follow is an essential skill that has high priority and high degree of technique about it. A social dancer needs to be able to dance with lots other dancers from other dance studios and training. While a competitive ballroom dancer needs to execute highly complicated steps and change them in a split second as the occasion calls for, which requires extremely lead and follow skills to make it seem as if its part of the routine.

[dancingman]

I can think of many examples where his criticism of ballroom would be right on... but I can also think of examples where it is way off base.

It would be good to have examples of both. I have done too little ballroom to do so, myself. Thanks. :)

Well new ballroom dancers who start to pick up fancy figures, can sometimes let it initially go to their head and they dance all over the place without any regard for people around them. Maybe its not that they have no regard, just that they have just started learning the moves and not yet reached the stage where they can control it (lead and follow).

It because it takes so much more time to train a good ballroom dancer, that it takes time for them to learn the proper lead and follow. Thus some people may get the wrong impression by looking at these new dancers and draw the conclusion. I'm sure the conclusion would be entirely different if they had seen the more highly trained dancers (whether social or competitive).

For example in ballroom, if your posture and weight transfer are not there yet, you probably won't be able to properly lead and follow. That has to come first before you can do so elegantly. Without that proper posture and weight transfer, you probably could lead only by forcefully using your arms. In salsa, you could probably get away with less than perfect posture and proper footwork to be able to lead properly. For that matter, if one really wanted to be lazy, they could probably lead a lady while just standing sloppy (no foot work or posture) and still do a good job. In ballroom, you never get away with that. Hence ballroom lead and follow is more involved with the entire body and movement.

[robin]

I know I've just said the same thing in another thread, but it fits here as well:

Lead and follow is not primarily about indicating what the next figure is. In my opinion this is an almost trivial side effect of the main point, which is to connect the two partners bodies to enable them to move together, to create shapes together, to build up energy between them, etc. etc. While I'm primarily thinking about ballroom, I believe the same is true in latin, though it might not be obvious for beginners....

I have no idea what this person could mean by "more advanced" in terms of leading.

[Slawek]

Dunno, our (social) ballroom teacher teaches us salsa as part of the latin dances (salsa, cha-cha, samba, rhumba, paso-doble) so I just can't see how salsa would be different from, say, cha-cha in terms of lead-follow technicalities. Quite often during our monthly practise/party, unknown women from other dance studios come, we invite them and lead them into steps that are new to them, and they follow.
Ballroom salsa is a quite different story. In my humble opinion it has almost nothing in common with normal club salsa.

[etchuck]

Okay... I do ballroom, swing, and salsa. I am learning as much as I could have money to afford lessons in club salsa, but I'm no expert in it yet.

I don't know if this person has ever had social ballroom training, but in general, lead-follow technique concepts are very similar in all dances. No one's "center" shifts drastically between dances. The dancing techniques themselves are different and require adjusting, but you should be able to cross-body lead anyone regardless of it being in cha-cha, rumba, mambo, salsa, WCS, or whatever.

That said, there ARE differences in what constitutes frame. Between swing, salsa, AT, and ballroom, how much tension emanates through one's arms is different among all of these dances. Street salsa tends to have relatively more "limp" arms to do wrist pops and really complex pretzels compared to Viennese waltz (as an example). When I as a lead place the follow's hand in a certain place on my body, I expect it to stay in that position for a second or two so I can do some cool styling things. Not all ballroomers or swingers are used to that. Regardless, salsa dancers still do not break the placement of their hands relative to their centers; their hands remain active and engaged relative to their centers without the "tension" of the arms coming into play. (Or as I observe it.)

There's nothing wrong with good lines or even competitions. Frankly I would like to see more "competitions" in salsa among amateur dancers. Not that workshops are bad, but I'd be interested.

Of course, the additional fact that a salsa dance can go on for 5-6 minutes means one HAS to know a much larger repertoire of moves, and thus, lead-follow is much more critical compared to the 2-3 minute blasts of ballroom or swing. Or that's just my opinion about it. Personally I would like to see more "lead-follow" focused events in ballroom competitions as opposed to "choreographed" routines as is the case for the swing world. Unfortunately no one wants to put in money or interest to see ballroom Jack-and-Jills so much.

[tsb]

my instinctive response is to say that anyone who makes sweeping generalizations about something he knows little about is merely arrogant & provincial in his outlook & that they suffer more in the long run.

but as others seem to be influenced by his views, with a little thought, i can also suggest that he's also dead wrong - from someone who actually dances all the different dances including ballroom, etc., that WCS & AT requires as much as if not even more advanced & nuanced lead & follow technique/vocabulary than salsa. the best way to illustrate that would be to find advanced followers for those two dances, have him dance with them & see how well they follow, then have him observe how well a salsera can do with advanced leaders of AT & WCS; i doubt that an advanced salsera could even do the correct foot placement of the basic of either dance w/o instruction, while both the WCS & AT dancers could be dancing salsa & doing more complex moves within the first 5 dances.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Many times when I social dance, in order to make a follower do something, I may make a shape or a motion less-than-pretty to an observer to just lead the follower through it - and we'll smile and you can see that sense of accomplishment on their faces sometimes - we're just having a good time, right? I'm a ballroom dancer, so according to this salsa guy, I'm breaking my rules. I guess, as mentioned, sweeping generalizations are a bad idea. Also, there must be an inferiority complex, to need to compare completely different style of dances.

[randomMysh]

Gah! I get really annoyed by ballroom bashers in other dance disciplines. It's not like there's nothing to bash ballroom for, but let's not make things up just so we have a reason to put it down for, ok? My AT teacher was making disparaging remarks about the ballroom frame and "stiffness" in class the other day. While I have a lot of respect for him and like his teaching, that was irritating. I haven't really studied smooth all that much, but even I know that there is NO stiffness in the smooth frame whatsoever--you couldn't move as big as you need to if you carried tension in your top! The worst part was that it was a beginner class, and for a lot of people it was their first exposure to dancing, so of course they'll have a negative impression of ballroom forever now, or at least for a very long time. Double gah!

Oh, and as far as lead and follow for ballroom dancers....my partner and I spent HOURS and HOURS doing nothing but lead and follow. I don't think we worked on anything as hard as we did on lead and follow. Granted, we had routines, but they were always led. Even in solo position, I always knew what he was doing and was poised to drop or alter the routine if he had to. Er, at least that was the goal. :) And if I had to, say, not do a kick we had in the routine because it would've hit someone's head in front of me, he'd not do it either to make it look planned.

Advanced ballroom people tend to have a very light lead and equally light follow, so it doesn't look like there lead and follow at all. Doesn't mean it's not there. I still don't understand why a man has to throw his partner all over the place in order for people to believe he's leading her. :evil:

[Rev]

Hi people, this is the first time I'm posting here. =)

I've talked to the "original quote-ed" before and I think our ideas about lead and follow are quite different, so I need people who are more adept at ballroom to confirm this. :-)

I consider lead/follow to be the "dance connection" and the frame between partners, and should not include "turn patterns" or "spin patterns".

I keep an almost constant tension in my frame when I do Street Latin, so I find it very hard to do the complex, pretzel-like turn patterns used in salsa when I dance with a person I've never danced with before.

This is one of the main reasons why the original person thinks salsa's lead/follow is more advanced than ballroom.

I've argued that the lead/follow is different in salsa and ballroom. But most of all, I believe that turn or spin patterns are completely different concepts to lead/follow, and should not be lumped together.

Any thoughts?

PS: this is just one of the many terminology differences we had.

[ON2]

Hi there

Why don't some of you just finish with that topic by accepting this

"If you REALLY REALLY don't want to come down to Union Square to WASTE your time,. and Brix isn't a neutral enough grounds for u, hell i'm even willing to go to a place like Club 5 or sth to look for you. (or rather for u to look for me since I dunno who u are....)
Discussion and demonstration (IN PERSON) is the easiest way to resolve (if not, at least absolve the misunderstanding) for any situation like this. "

So please stop the talk just face it

Keep on Danceind

[Laura]

I simply don't understand how one form of partner dance's lead-and-follow can be any more or less "better" or "complex" than any other. It's still the exact same thing: moving in a way that communicates to the follower where to go, when to go, how far to go, and what to do when she (or he) gets there. It doesn't matter if you're dancing Standard, Lindy, Salsa, or Latin: lead and follow is lead and follow. It's like saying that Chinese is a "better" langage than Swahili or English. They are all languages, they are all used to communicate information, to teach the young, to argue, to make poetry. They have different WORDS, different phonemes, but they are still languages. Dance technique and style corresponds to the words and phonemes in a language.

So, everything after understanding the fundamental purpose of lead and follow is sheer preference. That Salsa dude with his head up his butt may PREFER the style of posture, frame, and how leading and following are done the way he teaches salsa, but so what? I prefer learning Chinese to learning Spanish. Big deal. Thank god there are other people who like to dance the way he does, or else he'd have no one to dance with. I am thankful that there are other people out there who have learned Standard, because that gives me people to dance with. This is about joy and self expression and having fun and connecting with music and people. It's not about being some DANCE GOD who, paradoxically, has to cut down others to make his point.

[alemana]

i would normally be too exceedingly bored with such a pointless topic to comment, except that my own new ballroom partner made the extreme faux-pas of dissing salsa to my face the other day. his need to make a comparison speaks volumes about his own insecurity - but nothing about the actual dances.

after a few hours of latin practice, i had left him at one end of the room to pursue his fruitless goal of learning how to do a correct rumba walk, so that i could do a quick run-through of a mambo routine i'm learning for an upcoming performance. i already knew of his snobbishness about social dancing and about salsa, but felt he might have the good sense not to comment *out loud* at that particular moment.

in retrospect, i suppose i could say that a generous interpretation of his behavior could be that he was intimidated by what he saw, and/or jealous, and/or threatened by the fact that his partner has dance interests outside the partnership and outside ballroom latin.

he's so incredibly lucky to be the only available latin leader at my level at the moment. i think i need to let him know he needs to keep that kind of crap to himself in the future.

[HF]

Hmm ...

Knowing both the scenes, ballroom+"standard latin" (rhumba, cha-cha) and salsa, and having danced both types socially and in competition it always hurts me to notice prejudices from people that never "looked over the fence". Both dance worlds are of high value, each in its way.

Having said this I have to honestly admit that I made made certain observations:
- A dancer with a solid "standard latin" training is predestined to learn salsa quicker than others because the knowledge of rhythm, balance, body control, turns, lead/follow knowledge, musicality.
- Then comes the hard part - get out the "standard latin touch" of the body and learn the original latin american "sabor". Many will always look like "latin dancers that try to salsa but do not really get it". Especially hard for men. The more latin training you have had, the harder it will be, and it will take time and effort. Latin dancers that think that they can learn salsa within a few hours just because they already know cha-cha and rhumba are definitely in error.
- Now to the lead/follow question: Imagine a latin dancer that spends say four to five times a week three hours with training and compare him to a salsero that dances socially for the same amount of hours.

The latin dancer will train with his fixed partner most times, use more or less the same music and very strongly concentrate to look as good as possible for imaginary judges that are always present in his mind.

The salsero will dance with dozens of different ladies and will be busy to interprete whatever music he hears instantly, ideally with all the ups and downs, the hits, the breaks, tempo and rhythm changes of the music. Looking good is not his first goal, but listening to any salsa music and transferring it to followable signals "in real time" is his concentration and his art.

Obviously both need a solid knowledge of lead/follow technique. But the weight on it is definetely different. Just my 2 cents ...

[newbie]

...

- Now to the lead/follow question: Imagine a latin dancer that spends say four to five times a week three hours with training and compare him to a salsero that dances socially for the same amount of hours.

The latin dancer will train with his fixed partner most times, use more or less the same music and very strongly concentrate to look as good as possible for imaginary judges that are always present in his mind.

The salsero will dance with dozens of different ladies and will be busy to interprete whatever music he hears instantly, ideally with all the ups and downs, the hits, the breaks, tempo and rhythm changes of the music. Looking good is not his first goal, but listening to any salsa music and transferring it to followable signals "in real time" is his concentration and his art.

Obviously both need a solid knowledge of lead/follow technique. But the weight on it is definetely different. Just my 2 cents ...

As we're in the ballroom DF section, let's put it in a more acceptable way:

Imagine a ballroom dancer that spends say four to five times a week three hours with his 10-dance training and compare him to a salsero that dances salsa socially for the same amount of hours.

The latin dancer will train with his fixed partner most times, use more or less the same 10 musics and very strongly concentrate to look as good as possible during all the ups and downs, the hits, the breaks, tempo and rhythm changes of these 10 musics, including salsa, for imaginary judges that are always present in his mind.

The salsero will dance one dance with dozens of different ladies, though most probably the same dozens each time, will be busy to interprete whatever salsa music he hears instantly, ideally with all the ups and downs, the hits, the breaks, tempo and rhythm changes of the salsa music, and won't be able to lead anything at all when any of the 9 other kinds of music (cha-cha, paso-doble...) will be played. Looking good is not his first goal, and he'd better not try to because 90% of the time he'll look like a frozen clueless statue, desperately waiting for the next salsa, because only in this particular situation he'll be finding himself in a familiar situation, listening to salsa music, transferring it to followable signals "in real time" which is his concentration and his art.

Obviously both need a solid knowledge of lead/follow technique. But the weight on it is definetely different. Just my 1 cent ... :twisted:

[HF]

@ newbie

Agreed. The concentration on one dance additionally helps the salsa dancer on the journey from "more or less fixed routines" (that can surely be changed at any moment but nevertheless exist) to 100 % "lead" dance.

Of course, if I would have to book a dancer for a show which includes a variety of styles and requires much precision I would no doubt decide for the ballroom dancer.

One note: Have you ever seen top level Salsa dancers like the Vasquez brothers dance cha-cha? This is a very primordial experience for any latin/ballroom dancer.

[Sagitta]

WElcome to df ON2 and Rev. :) I would agree with soem others and say that it isn't that one is easier than another but that both emphasize different elements in lead/follow and people are limited more by their lack of flexibility in switching gears rather than that one dance is easier than the other.

[dancingman]

I consider lead/follow to be the "dance connection" and the frame between partners, and should not include "turn patterns" or "spin patterns".

I keep an almost constant tension in my frame when I do Street Latin, so I find it very hard to do the complex, pretzel-like turn patterns used in salsa when I dance with a person I've never danced with before.


Welcome Rev. Nice to see you here with like minded dancers.

Lead/follow for Ballroom Latin does definitely include turn patterns. Many Latin variations have multiple turns including the crowd pleasing continuous turns where the lady turns in a circle round the man (which is also seen in Salsa). There is definite dynamic connection between the leader and follower, otherwise there would be no way to control the direction and speed of the turn or to know where to start or end.

When it comes to leading turns with a new person, there are alot of factors involved, both from the leader and the follower. The leader will have to lead well, but the follower would also need to have good balance, which many do not. One way would be to start off with less complex turns, to gauge the level of the follower and then move to more complex ones if you deem that its working well between the two.

Tension in a frame should not be constant but be dynamic. This means the tension needs to vary, depending on the what you are doing, sometimes even down to almost no tension at times.

[dancingman]

Hi there

Why don't some of you just finish with that topic by accepting this

"If you REALLY REALLY don't want to come down to Union Square to WASTE your time,. and Brix isn't a neutral enough grounds for u, hell i'm even willing to go to a place like Club 5 or sth to look for you. (or rather for u to look for me since I dunno who u are....)
Discussion and demonstration (IN PERSON) is the easiest way to resolve (if not, at least absolve the misunderstanding) for any situation like this. "

So please stop the talk just face it

Keep on Danceind

Hi Tze Yi. First of all, it should be fairly obvious to most of us that most of the people on this forum don't reside in your country, let alone know where Union Square or Brix or Club 5 is. Second, you are assuming that I am from your country, which I am not. I've visited yes, and I surf the sites, so I know where you are referring to, but I've never been there as there was insuffficient time.

That's what forums are for: to get people from all over the world to discuss things virtually. If it were so easy to meet, we won't need forums. So rather than keeping asking to meet, which is obviously going to be difficult, just explain in clear terms why you think Salsa's lead / follow technique is so superior to ballroom's. And give specific examples if possible. If you can't substantiate it in writing, then don't write such things and give other people the wrong impression. I've seen lots of great explanations by people on thie forums on their various views on dancing. It showed alot of depth of understanding of dancing, both theory and practical. So it can be debated in writing, though of course in person would be even better. However, in person discussions can also be biased, simply because of differences in inate talent and a lack of opinions from other exprienced people.

[randomMysh]

So, everything after understanding the fundamental purpose of lead and follow is sheer preference. That Salsa dude with his head up his butt may PREFER the style of posture, frame, and how leading and following are done the way he teaches salsa, but so what? I prefer learning Chinese to learning Spanish. Big deal. Thank god there are other people who like to dance the way he does, or else he'd have no one to dance with. I am thankful that there are other people out there who have learned Standard, because that gives me people to dance with. This is about joy and self expression and having fun and connecting with music and people. It's not about being some DANCE GOD who, paradoxically, has to cut down others to make his point.

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Very well said, Laura. I completely agree.

[tj]

These two quotes pretty much sum up my thoughts on this topic:



my instinctive response is to say that anyone who makes sweeping generalizations about something he knows little about is merely arrogant & provincial in his outlook & that they suffer more in the long run.



his need to make a comparison speaks volumes about his own insecurity - but nothing about the actual dances.


There are plenty of bashers all over the place. Personally, I ignore them. And if I'm worried about "impressionable newbies", I'll just drop a hint to them that I don't think that it's true. I've had plenty of times where an instructor is teaching something that's... well... wrong. Doesn't matter. I just go on doing my own thing, the way that works for me. I don't think trying to argue with an instructor (about something that's just his own opinion) is going to get you anywhere.

[dTas]

Hi there

Why don't some of you just finish with that topic by accepting this

"If you REALLY REALLY don't want to come down to Union Square to WASTE your time,. and Brix isn't a neutral enough grounds for u, hell i'm even willing to go to a place like Club 5 or sth to look for you. (or rather for u to look for me since I dunno who u are....)
Discussion and demonstration (IN PERSON) is the easiest way to resolve (if not, at least absolve the misunderstanding) for any situation like this. "

So please stop the talk just face it

Keep on Danceind

unfortunately, to me, your statement just supports your ignorance.

give me some evidence, support your statements with facts please.

[Vin]

foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot

This is me touching this topic with my ten foot pole. That's about as close as I want to get to this topic.

BTW: Union Square and club five are both places in DC. Although I don't know anybody who dances at union square. The other places, I don't know,

[tj]

foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot-foot

This is me touching this topic with my ten foot pole. That's about as close as I want to get to this topic.

Lol!


BTW: Union Square and club five are both places in DC. Although I don't know anybody who dances at union square. The other places, I don't know,

Isn't Union Square in NYC, too?

[Porfirio Landeros]

So, everything after understanding the fundamental purpose of lead and follow is sheer preference. That Salsa dude with his head up his butt may PREFER the style of posture, frame, and how leading and following are done the way he teaches salsa, but so what? I prefer learning Chinese to learning Spanish. Big deal. Thank god there are other people who like to dance the way he does, or else he'd have no one to dance with. I am thankful that there are other people out there who have learned Standard, because that gives me people to dance with. This is about joy and self expression and having fun and connecting with music and people. It's not about being some DANCE GOD who, paradoxically, has to cut down others to make his point.

:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:

Very well said, Laura. I completely agree.

I totally agree... each language is unique, and to compare them (or dance styles) in the manner presented by the trash-talking salsero is completely lame. Why waste more energy on this... especially if the guy can't understand this level.

[Vin]

My Bad, I was thinking union station.
When he is talking about the superiority of salsa to ballroom he does mean on2 right, I mean he couldn't possibly mean that diluted on1 stuff. :twisted:

If you disagree just remember, my dad can beat up your dad anyday of the week.

[tj]

My Bad, I was thinking union station.
When he is talking about the superiority of salsa to ballroom he does mean on2 right, I mean he couldn't possibly mean that diluted on1 stuff. :twisted:

If you disagree just remember, my dad can beat up your dad anyday of the week.

Watch out, mister! I know where you live!


...err, I guess you know where I live, too. :wink:

[tj]

Lol, now that I went and read the thread over on those other forums, I now understand the underlying agenda here.

Oh jeez!
:roll: :roll:

It kinda reminds me of one of those Saturday afternoon movies with the bad dubbing... "My kung fu is better than your kung fu!"

Can't we just accept the differences and not bash each other?

[dTas]

Lol, now that I went and read the thread over on those other forums, I now understand the underlying agenda here.

Oh jeez!
:roll: :roll:

It kinda reminds me of one of those Saturday afternoon movies with the bad dubbing... "My kung fu is better than your kung fu!"

Can't we just accept the differences and not bash each other?

care to enlighten us who are too lazy to go over to the other forum. :)

[Rev]

Hi dancingman, thanks for the welcome. :-)

Lead/follow for Ballroom Latin does definitely include turn patterns.


What I meant was that shouldn't lead/follow be a different issue to turn patterns. More complex pretzel-like turn patterns doesn't indicate more or less advanced lead/follow, just different, IMHO.


Tension in a frame should not be constant but be dynamic. This means the tension needs to vary, depending on the what you are doing, sometimes even down to almost no tension at times.

I've never actually experienced the no arm tension in a closed position until I got to dance with an advanced salsa dancer, and it really freaked me out. Yes tension strength may vary, but I'm alway used to it being there constantly. Like I let my arm tension decrease when I lead my partner into a fan until only my fingers have tension, but increase my arm tension at the point when I want to bring her back for a spin or an alemana.

I cannot imagine leading any moves if my partner don't present any tension in her arms or fingers. But then again, I'm not exactly a good dancer now. :-)

[tj]

Lol, now that I went and read the thread over on those other forums, I now understand the underlying agenda here.

Oh jeez!
:roll: :roll:

It kinda reminds me of one of those Saturday afternoon movies with the bad dubbing... "My kung fu is better than your kung fu!"

Can't we just accept the differences and not bash each other?

care to enlighten us who are too lazy to go over to the other forum. :)

Well, it appears to me, that people are just itching for a flamewar and wanna start a fight rather than talking about what the original topic over there was about.

The instructor that was quoted here, has apologized for his remark, btw.

[randomMysh]

Vin--LOL!!! That made my day.

TJ--so you think the best way of dealing with ignorant teachers is to just ignore what s/he said and hope the newbies discover the truth on their own? Or is there a way to say something without making the teacher hate you forever?

[Istel]

Hi everyone,

I'm actually a frequent reader of the said forum and is acquainted with the person in the center of the controversy... I did not partake in the said thread in the said forum, knowing the amount controversy that would be created... However, I've decided to speak up due to the proportion of this issue being blown up to...

I respect said person for his knowledge/level of Salsa dancing, but I'm also very aware that he do make controversial statements at times.

However, noting that the thread in the said forum has very little to do with "Ballroom Bashing" but to cite examples (not a very politcally correct/wrong example I would say) of why you should get an instructor to improve your level of salsa...

I have no comments regarding the validity of his statements. I also understand that what he cited could be entirely wrong.

What I do not appreciate is that dancingman actually dragged that "flamewar" into this forum. Seeing his "intent" of gathering "ammunition"/"fire power" in this forum to refute what said person in the said Salsa Forum. And to actually name the said person... I can only say I'm not impressed...

That's all I'm going to say I guess...

I really respect and love this forum for being virtually flameless and extremely informative and helpful. Hence, I also appeal for everyone in the forum to not feed the trolls :lol:

Cheers.

[tj]

TJ--so you think the best way of dealing with ignorant teachers is to just ignore what s/he said and hope the newbies discover the truth on their own? Or is there a way to say something without making the teacher hate you forever?

Well, I feel that the worst thing to do is to call out an instructor in the middle of his class.

Personally, I'd talk to the instructor one-on-one later, and see if he's willing to be reasonable/open or not. Or if it's the newbies I was worried about, I'd start up a conversation with them, one-on-one, and demonstrate my point.

[madmaximus]

There is an old story.

A duck and its ducklings just came out from the water. A jackal, having heard of the wonders under-the-sea, demanded that the duck describe such magnificence.

"You would not understand" was the duck's wise reply "unless you can swim with a fish."


Later, one of the ducklings asked the mother duck why she would not explain matters to the jackal.

"Let them howl at the moon." said she "because that is what they do best. Time is too short to waste on fearful jackals."

madmaximus

[SDsalsaguy]

Quite well said madmaximus.

[randomMysh]

Istel--

cute avatar! I love it!

[dancingman]

Sorry if its seems that I'm dragging this from another forum. However if you have read the statement on the forum what he says, you will understand why I needed to do this:

"But you do not post on a salsa forum, that Ballroom lead/follow is on the same level as salsa. You post it on a ballroom forum I won't bother, you don't do that on a salsa forum. "

The fact was that Tze Yi made the statement that salsa's lead was on a higher level than Ballroom. A few of us discussed this at length as some of us did not agree, and in the end, one went to discuss it face to face with him. After the in-person meeting and when the person said he was still not convinced about Tze Yi's point, Tze Yi then made the above statement.

And for those of you who want the jist of what he said that I felt needed clarification and proof was this:

"Salsa is VERY technical, the level of salsa's lead/follow type of moves is WAY above ballroom dancing's level of lead/follow.

Ballroom dancing's attraction is in the nice lines, the picture perfect poses, etc. Not in the lead/follow technique. Salsa has it all over ballroom dancing in the lead/follow department.

Whether I can convince you or not, doesn't bother me, I have shown u, that moves that are LEADABLE in salsa are more complex than ballroom, to which even you yourself admitted. Whether its because of lack of emphasis on leading turn patterns in ballroom is immaterial. The fact remains, salsa lead/follow technicalities are more advanced than ballroom.

Salsa on the other hand, due to lack of competitions, mainly focus on social dancing ONLY. So a salsa dancer would pride him/herself on the ability to lead/follow everything you see on the dance floor. So, like I explained to Rev, for a ballroom dancer to say that Ballroom dancing has an equal or higher level of lead/follow technique than salsa, is a slap in the face for a salsa dancer, who's main focus is lead/follow."

The main aim is to get opinions from people from various parts of the world to see whether this is a country specific issue or something that afflicts all countries. Also, Singapore is a small country and the number of people paticipating in that forum is rather small, and thus may not be representative of the true art of ballroom and salsa.

[Joe]

YAWN.

[Rha]

I dance Competitive Ballroom and club Salsa. In theory the style of partner dance alone does not make lead & Follow in one style more advanced than the other. However in practice there are certain types of movements that one style of dancers are able to lead & follow better than the other because of the predominance of certain types of movements in the prevailing fashion of the style and the proficiency that comes from frequent execution of those movements.

Club Salsa's is predominated by rotating rotational movements within the individual dancers and around a center of focus for the partnership. Ballroom has more progression across the floor movements and even the turns are frequently progressive (in space) turns.

A softer connection and frame is required to lead the non-progressive, on-the-spot rotational movements while a more toned and firm frame is better suited for progressive movements.

The problem is that dancers of a particular style don't adjust the connection/frame according to the type of movement they want to dance while in the dance. There is nothing wrong with dancing spacially progressive movements in Salsa, for example, and pure club Salsa dancers can learn from how good ballroom dancers, effortlessly and powerfully, execute progressive movements and rotations. Equally ballroom dancers can learn from Salsa dancers who produce fantastic and complex non-progressive rotating rotations.

The basis of this is adjusting to the connection and frame for the movement at hand whatever style one is dancing. As long as action matches intent your dancing will look appropriate, natural and great whatever the style because the dynamic connection/frame is owned by the movement at hand and not by the style.

Rha

[squirrel]

I am a Salsa dancer... and I also teach Salsa... I have never learned ballroom (I guess 3 hours of cha cha cha don't really count), as I am not particularly crazy about it (mostly to do with music, I think).

Still this has nothing to do with putting Ballroom down!

I've danced with ballroom leaders who tossed me around the floor like I was a ragdoll... but the same is true for some club-Salsa dancers with no dancing background...

I've danced with smooth Salsa leaders... but I also enjoyed some smooth ballroom leaders... and yes, one could tell if the leader has ballroom training or not, but WHO CARES?

Lead and follow are techniques that are applied to dancing... and I think they should be adjusted depending on both the type of dance and the partner herself...

I danced cha cha with a ballroom instructor... I only do street cha cha ... yet I followed and had loads of fun! And no pushing and pulling took place, just LEADING AND FOLLOWING!

It's the same endless discussion as in the case of on1 vs. on2... :evil: