Do you need to compete to advance?

[dancer at heart]

I just recently started ballroom, and it's been an awesome experience. But unlike salsa, it is not really a social dance....is it important to compete in order to advance in ballroom :?:

[Vince A]

I just recently started ballroom, and it's been an awesome experience. But unlike salsa, it is not really a social dance....is it important to compete in order to advance in ballroom :?:
Competing is never "a must do kinda of thing." You certanly can advance in ballroom w/o competing . . . and many of the places that we go to, does have "strictly ballroom" only dancing.

I am only one voice here in this forum, and I believe that competing only moves you along quicker toward your dance goals. Why? Because you have a tendency to think about your dancing more . . . you probably spend more $$$ if you compete, and you certainly want to get your money's worth . . . you may watch more videos . . . you may read more articles . . . you may take more lessons or privates if you compete and want to move through the ranks more quickly . . . and you will practice more - just so you stand a better chance of winning, if that is important?. Just some of the reasons . . .

And there are as many reasons to not compete . . . it's what you want to do!

[pygmalion]

I can't speak on the effects of competition (I'll let you know next month! :D ) but I do find that having a specific stretch goal in mind helps a lot with staying focused and making progress.

For me, up to this point, that goal has usually involved preparing for some sort of performance, like a studio showcase or formation team performance, or preparing for an exam or progress check. Those have helped me stay focused without the need to compete.

I'm trying competition now just to see how it feels. Sounds like it's going to be a blast! :D

What does anybody else think?

[smoothdancingirl]

I think preparing for any performance steps up your dancing a notch. Performing makes you do things you would never do just social dancing. Competing steps it up one notch more. Plus it builds your confidence.I would try maybe starting by doing a performance for other students at your studio.

[pygmalion]

Yes! Performing in a studio is great experience. You get used to dancing in front of people, but it's a supportive, relatively non-competitive environment.

[MissAlyssa]

If anything I think competing gives you more confidence, makes your leading/following stronger and lets you see PROOF OF PROGRESS.

[SDsalsaguy]

From a different perspective altogether, I find that nothing drives practice like comp preparation. So, totally aside from what's gained via competing, the process itself is (generally speaking) a huge boost. Do I think that one has to compete to advance? No. But even saying that it is a huge help is still an understatement!

[liz]

let me start with alot of people are totally happy with social dancing... They move along with the learning with no pressure at all. then there is the type of people that need a goal, something to work toward.. That would be me... I think that setting a date of a competion is a great way to motivateyourself...Noone wants to walk out in front of a group and be unprepared. It doesn't have to be a comp. it could be a showcase... The point is that you set goals and move toward them... That way you feel you have progressed.

[SDsalsaguy]

...talk about a thread that had accumulated three years of cyber dust! :shock:

[DennisBeach]

I just recently started ballroom, and it's been an awesome experience. But unlike salsa, it is not really a social dance....is it important to compete in order to advance in ballroom :?:

That depends on were you live. In Wisconsin, there are more Ballroom dances, than salsa or swing dances. Ballroom is comprised more off couples than swing or salsa, but there are singles and some of the couples do not dance exclusively with each other. it is definitely an opportunity to socialize, whether you are part of a couple or a single.

Competing would give you added incentive to practice and invest more into your dancing. But you definitely can progress just doing social dancing. Most social dancers take lessons and practise, they normally just do it less than people who compete.

[SlowDancer]

I'm one of those folks who need a carrot dangling in front of me to really progress...and competing provides that for me.

That being said, I believe that merely OBSERVING a dance competition, as in sitting in the audience and watching other good dancers dance, is also very helpful. Not nearly as good as preparing for a comp and getting out on the floor myself, but I feel that I learn a great deal by watching other dancers in a competitive environment. I guess it's learning by osmosis...

[PasoDancer]

I just recently started ballroom, and it's been an awesome experience. But unlike salsa, it is not really a social dance....is it important to compete in order to advance in ballroom?

Au contraire... Ballroom was created FOR social dancing, NOT for competitive dancing. Granted, there are cliques here and there who are strictly competition-minded and they have no room for anyone NOT of that persuasion, but generally, that's WHY you dance ballroom... to socialize.

I think the people that tout competition SO vehemently (I want to distinguish the difference between "ordinary people who want or like to compete" and "fanatics", mind you) and are so militant about "you aren't worth my time if you don't compete" have to have some sort of carrot dangling in front of them, or validation for their efforts- and it will overflow at least psychologically into other aspects of their lives.

Competition isn't for everyone, just as social dancing isn't for everyone.

Some people aren't satisfied with taking a partner, moving easily around a crowded floor, and having a good time with what they've learned and practiced on, and have to have someone tell them that they're good.

Some people don't solicit the advice of professionals in the form of judges or coaches, and are content to attend group and/or private lessons, take notes, practice daily, and learn as much as they can- as though they WERE competing... and to a degree they (we?) are... with themselves.

Whatever works, though... personally, the only thing that gets me about SOME- NOT-ALL compers is their sh!tty attitude of superiority when they really have no idea how well or poorly someone else dances as it's the INTERNET, so they should stuff a Capezio in it, LOL.

An' harm ye none, dance how thou wilt.

[fascination]

From a different perspective altogether, I find that nothing drives practice like comp preparation. So, totally aside from what's gained via competing, the process itself is (generally speaking) a huge boost. Do I think that one has to compete to advance? No. But even saying that it is a huge help is still an understatement!precisely, and I would also like to add, in reference to paso's post, the truly best competing I have done has been when pro and I are simply trying to keep executing OUR personal best...when one goes out, even if you want to beat other folks, if that is your focus rather than on doing what you know you can do which is execute your personal best, IMO, you are sunk before you start...for me competing is also very social...I have so much respect for the priority that alot of competitive dancers put on their dancing....if there were social dancers as passionate about dance as paso at my old studio, I would have thoroughly enjoyed their company...there weren't...so I find myself around more like-minded folk in the competitive venue...and I now (once having broken through the giant comp terror curtain, lol) have a total blast at comps...ya get to know people, there is totally cool stuff to buy...you get to eat out every freaking day....you have opportunities to go to high level workshops for almost no money, you get to drool over a bunch of fit men...you get to dance socially with them...what's not to love?

[liz]

glad to hear that I am not the only one who has felt the evil eye at a comp... I am from Mississippi, and we are really friendly people... Point is I had never been around anyone who would look at me like they could kill me... I am thankful that I have made friends with some really nice girls, so now when we are at a comp. we can pull for eachother... It doesn't hurt as much to be defeated by a friend.

[PasoDancer]

fascination makes me feel like I'm "between niches", so to speak with that last one. "Too competitive for social" "not wanting to compete", so there's the impasse. There's no room in the middle, because the regular social dancers aren't as hooked on it as we are- well, they SAY they are, but they're the ones who dance forty-five minutes a week, show up occasionally at parties, and get mad and huff off the floor if their partner does something wrong. The ones who compete have disdain for us because we're "lowly" and spend all our time "muggle loving up at socials with the little people". It's crazy. It's why we're grateful to have very large "nobody knows your name" studios in the area that we can go to sometimes and not be "seen as anyone"- or seen at all. We're "just out of towners" when we go there.

[saludas]

Most competitive dancers take their dancing seriously and probably feel a little 'reverse snobbery' from the social dancers that put them down for being 'too serious'. It translates into putting down someone's passion, so who can blame them for being put off?

"Getting around a crowded floor" is a quickly accomplished goal - social dancers are probably advanced level for their peers within a few months - but getting to the next level of enjoyment is a lot harder and takes actual focus, practice, and ability - group classes do NOT advance you in dance past that 'take a partner, push around the floor' scenario.

Study of movement, creating beautiful movement within space - that's what high level competitive dancers aspire to - and just like anyone else, they want to dance at THEIR personal best; it's just a different (albeit harder) place to get to.

[pygmalion]

fascination makes me feel like I'm "between niches", so to speak with that last one. "Too competitive for social" "not wanting to compete", so there's the impasse. There's no room in the middle, because the regular social dancers aren't as hooked on it as we are- well, they SAY they are, but they're the ones who dance forty-five minutes a week, show up occasionally at parties, and get mad and huff off the floor if their partner does something wrong. The ones who compete have disdain for us because we're "lowly" and spend all our time "muggle loving up at socials with the little people". It's crazy. It's why we're grateful to have very large "nobody knows your name" studios in the area that we can go to sometimes and not be "seen as anyone"- or seen at all. We're "just out of towners" when we go there.

I can relate. Have you considered doing showcases or exhibitions at your studio? That can work, as well, IMO.

Competing just doesn't do it for me, since I truly don't give a fig about winning (as an individual -- team competitions are different, for me.) And all the artifice in the competition world, while I understand it and think it's at least somewhat valid, kinda ... turns me off.

A lot of studios do showcases and formations. Something like that might help satisfy your desire for excellence, without throwing you out there on the competition floor.

Just a thought. :cool:

[wooh]

Most competitive dancers take their dancing seriously and probably feel a little 'reverse snobbery' from the social dancers that put them down for being 'too serious'. It translates into putting down someone's passion, so who can blame them for being put off?...
"Getting around a crowded floor" is a quickly accomplished goal...


Really? Last comp I saw, the pre-champ couples and a few of the champ couples were having quite a bit of trouble with that. They were "creating beautiful movement in their space" but unfortunately, were doing it in other couple's spaces too. Perhaps a little more social dancing would do them some good. And us social dancers could learn to create a little more beautiful movement as we get around the crowded floor. The snobbery goes both ways, can't we just get along?
I think an individual/couple needs to decide what they want out of dancing and how they need to get there. No one path is right for everyone.

[Laura]

They were "creating beautiful movement in their space" but unfortunately, were doing it in other couple's spaces too.
(Laughing out loud :) )

[saludas]

Really? Last comp I saw, the pre-champ couples and a few of the champ couples were having quite a bit of trouble with that. They were "creating beautiful movement in their space" but unfortunately, were doing it in other couple's spaces too. Perhaps a little more social dancing would do them some good. And us social dancers could learn to create a little more beautiful movement as we get around the crowded floor. The snobbery goes both ways, can't we just get along?
I think an individual/couple needs to decide what they want out of dancing and how they need to get there. No one path is right for everyone.

I think the interactions you saw in prechamp are from inexperience; that's why they are in Prechamp. The interactions you saw in Champ were more likely competitive movements. Remember, to the onlooker, what seems like boorish behavior by one couple might be in reality the other couple's lack of floorcraft that got them in the way of the oncoming couple, and all you saw was the collision. It takes two people to collide, and often the couple that is stopped is in reality the couple that causes the problem.


Re; my comment out of context - for a SOCIAL couple 'getting out of the way' IS quickly accomplished. For a Champ couple on a crowded floor, it is MUCH harder. Also, it is MUCH harder to avoid a lower lever couple in competition since they are not in control of their movement, bodies, and mindest as much as they need to be. Comparing competitive couples in Championship with social couples does neither couple a service - a social couple amongst competitives become a roadblock, and a competitive couple amongst social couples appears like a freight train.

[tanya_the_dancer]

After being within the same dance circle for about 4 years, I've noticed that people who are completely hooked to ballroom dancing eventually move into competing, sooner or later. People who are less into it (they like it, but don't love it, if you understand what I mean), usually do not.

[pygmalion]

I agree, t the d. I've seen the same thing. :cool:

I just think it's a pity that there seem to be two pigeonholes, and two only. A pity, that is, because I don't fit either one. I'm non-competitive by nature. That's who I am. But I'm also super excellence-oriented.
So neither social dance nor competitive dance fits me particularly well. Eh. Such is life. *shrug*

I wonder how many people would go into competitive dance, especially pro-am, if there were widely available non-competitive options for excellence-oriented folks. Not that I'll ever know, of course. :wink:

And some more general ponderings, not in response to your post, t the d:

It never fails to amaze me how many people who are competitive by nature assume that everyone is or should be that way. Eh. Competitiveness certainly is one viable world orientation. I don't think it's the only or necessarily the best one for everyone. It's just one way, IMHO. Not my way. But certainly one way.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I agree, t the d. I've seen the same thing. :cool:

I just think it's a pity that there seem to be two pigeonholes, and two only. A pity, that is, because I don't fit either one. I'm non-competitive by nature. That's who I am. But I'm also super excellence-oriented.
So neither social dance nor competitive dance fits me particularly well. Eh. Such is life. *shrug*

I wonder how many people would go into competitive dance, especially pro-am, if there were widely available non-competitive options for excellence-oriented folks. Not that I'll ever know, of course. :wink:

And some more general ponderings, not in response to your post, t the d:

It never fails to amaze me how many people who are competitive by nature assume that everyone is or should be that way. Eh. Competitiveness certainly is one viable world orientation. I don't think it's the only or necessarily the best one for everyone. It's just one way, IMHO. Not my way. But certainly one way.

Perhaps that's what it is. Not every competive dancer around here is a competitive person by nature. They just see it as a way to excel and don't care about placements. Mainly, I think, because a typical social is not a place which calls for excellence - it's a place where the top priority is to have fun, regardless of your skill or lack of it.

Me, personally, I also have a competitive streak on the top of my desire to excel. But to each his own.

[fascination]

well precisely T the D...b/c what does winning mean if you know you danced like crap for what you are capable of...I have won locally having danced dreadfully, sure, i beat a buttload of folks...it didn't mean a thing...and in my rhythm and latin, I am not likely to place at a big comp (yet, lol)...but it is an excellent opportunity for us to get out thaere and work it better than last time, with a little bit of added adrenalin

[waltzgirl]

I wonder how many people would go into competitive dance, especially pro-am, if there were widely available non-competitive options for excellence-oriented folks. Not that I'll ever know, of course. :wink:


Sign me up! Showcases and performances do provide some opportunities, but they aren't that frequent.

(But maybe we should be glad they aren't. Over in the salsa forum, there's a long thread about how sick people are of all the mediocre salsa performances there are at every event they go to (and frequently have to pay for). It sounds like, since competing isn't big in the salsa world, joining a performance team serves a lot of the same purpose for folks who want to take their dancing up a notch and get further training and who have the "I want to dress up and show off" gene. At least, when we are doing our bonze and silver comps, we aren't part of an expensive show, so only our relatives have to bother to show up to watch us!)

I'll admit to some competitive feelings, but they don't make me happy. The best thing I did for my dancing was stop competing this year. I quickly realized that, since I began competing six months into my lessons, every step I took was accompanied, at some level, by the awareness that "this will be judged." It was very inhibiting. When I decided to stop competing, I started to feel more joy in movement for its own sake, which was really thrilling. My dancing has grown a huge amount since then.

But I do like a goal. Both my pro and I are more focused and productive when we have one. So I'm starting to get my toes wet in the comp world again. I did a studio mini-comp a while back and had a blast! Enjoyed every minute of it. I always make a little list of technique points to go over just before I dance--not to think about when dancing, but just to have in the back of my mind. I realized my attitude had changed when, after the comp, I realized that my lists had changed from technique points I wanted "to show the judge" to points I wanted to remember to make the dancing easy and fun. The technique points would have been the same, but the attitude was completely different.

Now I'm thinking about doing a real comp in the next few months. If I can hang on to the same attitude. We'll see.

[pygmalion]

Those studio mini-comps are so much fun!! There's competition involved, yes. But, for me, there's also a team slant to things that makes it worthwhile. I enjoy those immensely.

I also think it's a pity that there aren't more non-collegiate, adult-level team, formation, and/or showcase opportunities. That would be/has been fun, for me, as well as providing me with a dance goal that makes sense. :cool:

[fascination]

it's interesting...certainly those feelings that one is going to be judged creep in...and competitions are competitions not showcases, but one of the skills that I am really enjoying honing is the ability to bear up under the pressure and to stay focused in spite of it...I guess also never having played a team sport or anything like that when I was young and having always percieved competitiveness as a bad thing, I am really enjoying the the overt positive aspects of it ...I think oftentimes, and I read this recently in a book on women and relationships, when we don't have a positive outlet for for the best aspects of competitiveness, they can go underground, not be owned, and do lots of damage to others in passive aggressive ways...not that ballroom competition is a cure all but I certainly find it to be a form of competiveness that is far less damaging than the more subtle forms of pain and competition that people can inflict upon one another in dance studios or on forums or anywhere else...but then again, I have always like aggressive/aggressive more than passive/aggressive...still, I can see how there might be a limited shelf life for anyone as far as competing is concerned....thaere are times when it is just good to have no deadline, no stress no plan...and just enjoy...and it's important too

[fascination]

on the whole team formation thing...I think then it is really important that all parties involved be equally committed or that anyone getting involved accepts at the outset that they are not in control of that and don't care...but showcases are great opportunities in my view to do something, particularly something you wouldn't normally do..tons of fun...I miss that about not being at a studio right now

[waltzgirl]

Yes, I think my negative feelings about competition stem from the nasty, underhanded ways women are socialized to compete with one another. Boy, I hate it when I'm standing waiting to go on the floor and some woman gives me that hostile appraising head-to-toe scan.

And part of my bad feeling about pro-am competition comes from the fact that finances make it such an uneven playing field. I'm on the floor with lots of women who can afford hours of lessons every week and $3000 gowns. There I am, with my two lessons a week, two comps a year, and $500 dress. I might as well be dancing with a cannon ball chained to my foot. I'll never win. Maybe if I were supremely talented, but I'm just a hard-workin' ex-couch potato. I'm usually marked in the middle of the pack if there's a field of any size. I guess that's actually pretty good, considering the cannon ball, but it's not very satisfying from a competitive standpoint.

[pygmalion]

I wonder how much of the whole thing is cultural. (Yes. I'm in a wondering mood, today.) That is to say, some cultures really focus on individual accomplishment, which would fit well in the competitive world, IMO. Other cultures focus on community responsibility and accomplishment through the group, which doesn't fit so well in the ballroom world, IMO (unless you live in Utah :lol: )

Why is one necessarily any better than the other? In my mind, it's not.

Yet, if you're interested in ballroom dance, regardless of your personality or your cultural bias, you have to choose to compete or choose to go to occasional Friday-night dances and dance with folks who can't.

I've spent some time thinking about swing dance or C&W dance for that reason. Not sure what I'll find, over there. But I do know that people like me don't fit into either of the two options that are readily available in the ballroom dance world. It's a pity that so few people (it seems) think outside those two boxes. *shrug*

[pygmalion]

Yes, I think my negative feelings about competition stem from the nasty, underhanded ways women are socialized to compete with one another. Boy, I hate it when I'm standing waiting to go on the floor and some woman gives me that hostile appraising head-to-toe scan.

Yes. Women compete with each other ... at least the ones who are competitive. The rest of us ignore the *******. lol! (A skill you might need to cultivate, waltzgirl. :wink: )

And part of my bad feeling about pro-am competition comes from the fact that finances make it such an uneven playing field. I'm on the floor with lots of women who can afford hours of lessons every week and $3000 gowns. There I am, with my two lessons a week, two comps a year, and $500 dress. I might as well be dancing with a cannon ball chained to my foot. I'll never win. Maybe if I were supremely talented, but I'm just a hard-workin' ex-couch potato. I'm usually marked in the middle of the pack if there's a field of any size. I guess that's actually pretty good, considering the cannon ball, but it's not very satisfying from a competitive standpoint.

And yes. It's an uneven playing field. Some folks are dancing with their teachers every day, buying expensive costumes, and going to comps all the time. What're you gonna do? Get out there and dance the best you can, since dancing is really what it's about.

And think about whether dancing well really is what it's all about, for you. If you spend your life comparing yourself to other people who have more or do different things, you'll always be unhappy, WG, 'cause there'll always be somebody who has more or does more.

The struggle, in my life, has been about learning to know myself -- who I am and what I want -- as well as accept who and where I am. Once you're there, nobody can shake you. This I know. :cool:

[Laura]

I'm on the floor with lots of women who can afford hours of lessons every week and $3000 gowns. There I am, with my two lessons a week, two comps a year, and $500 dress. I might as well be dancing with a cannon ball chained to my foot.
If you pick your comps carefully, you often won't end up dancing against the wealthy go-getters. Try smaller, locally-oriented, competitions where the heavy hitters just don't even bother to show up.

Also, I have something to say about the dress thing: I've been making my own for years and so my dresses cost me between $100-$500 and the quality of the dress has never been a problem for me, even now that I'm dancing larger comps in the "open" Pro/Am level. So don't worry about the dresses. All the rhinestones in the world aren't going to change things -- especially if you get the other grooming stuff right.

You are on to something, I'm sorry to say, about the hours of lessons per week. The more you dance, the faster you will improve and the better you will get and all that. It's tough going up against that, believe me I struggled with it for years and finally have been fortunate enough to be able to bite the bullet and take more lessons each week than I used to. The one thing to keep in mind so your dance psyche doesn't get all warped by this is to just remember that you are learning and improving at your own rate, and you can't do anything about people who take three times as many lessons a week as you are. Eventually, one hopes, they will move up into a higher category :) Do what you can for your dancing by practicing alone, cross-training, etc. but try not to let the money race suck you in or pull you down or it will rob you of the joy in dancing and competing.

[pygmalion]

You are on to something, I'm sorry to say, about the hours of lessons per week. The more you dance, the faster you will improve and the better you will get and all that. It's tough going up against that, believe me I struggled with it for years and finally have been fortunate enough to be able to bite the bullet and take more lessons each week than I used to. The one thing to keep in mind so your dance psyche doesn't get all warped by this is to just remember that you are learning and improving at your own rate, and you can't do anything about people who take three times as many lessons a week as you are. Eventually, one hopes, they will move up into a higher category :) Do what you can for your dancing by practicing alone, cross-training, etc. but try not to let the money race suck you in or pull you down or it will rob you of the joy in dancing and competing.

You are so wise, Laura! :D

Yeah. I guess that's the thing that made me say "screw it" to the whole competition thing, back in the day, was, back when I was spending ... uhh ... about 20 grand a year on dance lessons and went to my first comp. And, when I got there, there were some pro-am ladies dancing dozens of heats more than I, spending multiples of what I could afford to spend (bear in mind how much I was spending,) and set up to take the spotlight for years to come. Competitive or not, that hurts. So I figured that pro-am competiton serves a useful purpose, but it's not for me. Anytime you can figuratively buy a brand new car every year (buying dance lessons) and still be the annoyance on the floor around the superstars, there's something wrong with the picture, IMO.

The truth of it is that, for me, dancing better than I did yesterday, every day for the rest of my life, is what it's about. I don't need to enter any competitions to have that. But you're a lot younger than I am, and I know that you might need the affirmation that comes from winning.

Laura's giving really good advice, IMO.

[fascination]

Yes, I think my negative feelings about competition stem from the nasty, underhanded ways women are socialized to compete with one another. Boy, I hate it when I'm standing waiting to go on the floor and some woman gives me that hostile appraising head-to-toe scan.

And part of my bad feeling about pro-am competition comes from the fact that finances make it such an uneven playing field. I'm on the floor with lots of women who can afford hours of lessons every week and $3000 gowns. There I am, with my two lessons a week, two comps a year, and $500 dress. I might as well be dancing with a cannon ball chained to my foot. I'll never win. Maybe if I were supremely talented, but I'm just a hard-workin' ex-couch potato. I'm usually marked in the middle of the pack if there's a field of any size. I guess that's actually pretty good, considering the cannon ball, but it's not very satisfying from a competitive standpoint.
I empathize..I don't have the money issue but I had a weight problem and I was a pretty old newcomer, there's always some way to feel intimidated...my pro isn't a household name in the ballroom world...I find that I have to focus on my advantages, and luckily for me one of them is the ability to practice and take alot of lessons...gotta say though some of my best dancing and results were in my 300 dress made by joe, not my chrisanne....

but yea...there's nothing worse than the evil eye...I have alot of respect for some of the really good ladies who treat me well...in spite of my intent to gain on them a bit...they are so gracious...THAT is the best of competition IMO

still, yea, it really bites that lessons take money, but everyone has the ability to practice and IMO, whatever success I have had comes from my willingness to do the work...if you don't to the work with or withou the lesson, you are SOL...and you can mitigate though not overcome the impact of fewer lessons byt doing what you can on your own....when I was taking fewer lessons, i was practicing more and my progress was swift b/c of it...still, look, just like my advice to TE on another thread...if it makes you more miserble thatn happy there is certainly no defect attached with just taking a different path

[fascination]

lol...and I'd like to meet these non-competitive women...an nice theory, IMO

[Laura]

Yeah. I guess that's the thing that made me say "screw it" to the whole competition thing, back in the day, was, back when I was spending ... uhh ... about 20 grand a year on dance lessons and went to my first comp. And, when I got there, there were some pro-am ladies dancing dozens of heats more than I, spending multiples of what I could afford to spend (bear in mind how much I was spending,) and set up to take the spotlight for years to come.
The funny thing that I've noticed is, once you sweat through all this kind of stuff on the Bronze and Silver levels, it pretty much disappears on the Open level. The people I dance against tend to enter like I do: the minimum number of single-dances to make them "eligible" for the Scholarship, and sometimes another DanceSport Series multi-dance thingy on the side. So at this point it really has become about the dancing again, and not how many heats I happen to enter at a competition. In fact, this is how I've been competing all along, but now it seems most other people on my level are too.

Of course, some ladies have the fantabulously expensive dresses, but I just don't worry about it any more.

I know I'm taking fewer lessons than many of the ladies I dance against, but I am taking exactly as many as fits into my plans and my dancing keeps getting better -- which is all I can ask for.

So anyway, I meant this to be encouraging: yes, there is a LOT of money thrown around in Pro/Am, but after coming back to it this year and dancing in the Open level it doesn't seem to be as big a deal as it was when I was on the syllabus levels.

I think the big thing that is helping me is self-knowledge, and having a plan and sticking to it. I know what I'm doing, I know why I'm doing it, I know how much money and time I want to spend on it, and I'm just sticking with the plan and the results are coming at their own pace. I'm very fortunate in that The Teacher doesn't believe in just throwing money at a problem, either, and that we've agreed that whatever we achieve will probably take longer to get to than what some other people experience, but we know we are taking a longer way around and we are sticking to the plan and staying focussed. So, whatever happens will happen, and I will have earned it, and it will be very rewarding as it comes.

I also know where/how to look for success for myself. Sure, the last competition I was in I came in 4th out of 5 couples. Now, that could have sucked, but I looked at the tape and I looked at the marks and I was very happy and so here I am at yet another competition. This time there are only three couples, and one is a legendary heavy hitter in Pro/Am. But I can't worry about that, I'm just going to go out there and dance and put what I've been working on lately out there, and most of all enjoy it and try to grow as a dancer and as a person from the experience.

[Laura]

but yea...there's nothing worse than the evil eye...
It's funny, I'd never gotten the evil eye in Pro/Am. I guess no one considered me any kind of "threat" and just wrote me off.

Until very recently -- I got the eye and it actually made me happy, because I knew the eye-er would not be looking at me if she didn't think The Teacher & I were something to worry about. Well, I say let 'em worry and I hope they don't go cross-eyed from the lookin'.

[pygmalion]

I know I'm taking fewer lessons than many of the ladies I dance against, but I am taking exactly as many as fits into my plans and my dancing keeps getting better -- which is all I can ask for.

So anyway, I meant this to be encouraging: yes, there is a LOT of money thrown around in Pro/Am, but after coming back to it this year and dancing in the Open level it doesn't seem to be as big a deal as it was when I was on the syllabus levels.

I think the big thing that is helping me is self-knowledge, and having a plan and sticking to it. I know what I'm doing, I know why I'm doing it, I know how much money and time I want to spend on it, and I'm just sticking with the plan and the results are coming at their own pace.


Wow. Yes. That is encouraging... especially since I've been sewing my own clothes since I was thirteen. lol!

Just kidding. (I do sew and have been since my teens, but I'm still kidding. :cool: )

But yeah. I agree. Self-knowledge is the key. Know who you are, what you want, and why you're there. And everything else sorts itself out, in the end, IMO. :cool:

[pygmalion]

lol...and I'd like to meet these non-competitive women...an nice theory, IMO


Huh?

[fascination]

well exactly...dh and I have set a budget...it has a limit...and O have seen enough bad open dancers to know that all of the advantages in the world just can't make up for time on the floor and years under the belt...you've got to just go out ther eand do what you can do...b/c it's just so classless to whine about your disadvantages, sure, it's far to notice them but look, if you are going to do it, you have to have your own goal and not blame others for what they do have....I mean, if we want to beat a big name, in all likelihood we are going to have to be better, not equal...but that can't be our focus b/c then what do we have in the end? nothing...what we are trying to be is the biggest moving, largest straightest topline with the best balance out there...now hopefully that will mark well, but that just cannot be our goal

[fascination]

Huh?
I haven't met any of them yet...that's all

[fascination]

I'll tell you laura, I hope that some day I have a chance to be as graceful as Maria(won't mention her last name)... I dance against her all the time and she wins all the time, but I am hanging in there in the rear view mirror, lol...and she is just always as kind and friendly as she can be...I adore that quality

[pygmalion]

I haven't met any of them yet...that's all

Umm. I'll assume you're talking about your studio and competition experiences.


'Nuf said. :cool:

[Laura]

O have seen enough bad open dancers to know that all of the advantages in the world just can't make up for time on the floor and years under the belt...
Exactamente.

I am also fortunate in that I've done Amateur competition from time to time. It's been noted that my attitude and energy out on the floor is not like a lot of the other Pro/Am dancers. Dancing amateur makes one very self-reliant and focussed while competing, and it shows up in other areas. (And who knows, maybe I will dance amateur again some time, but I am happy doing Pro/Am for now while I sort out a lot of other things going on in my life :) ) I also think it helps that my teacher had competed as an Amateur, as the Student half of a Pro/Am couple, and as a Professional, so he knows first-hand what it's like to be in my shoes. Well, except for that he was leading, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, my point was going to be that it is worth being in a few amateur partnerships, even if they are difficult and ultimately don't go very far. You get so much experience out of that which is very valuable no matter where the dancing actually goes. And, as we all know, dancing amateur on the syllabus levels can save you a lot of money on entry fees, and can help reduce your lesson costs, too. One doesn't always have to dance with Mr. or Ms. "Right," they can also train and compete with a Mr. or Ms. "Right Now" to get experience, exposure, and most of all to have some fun.

[fascination]

nah, in general, but don't take it personally...I mean it fairly universally

[pygmalion]

Exactamente.

I am also fortunate in that I've done Amateur competition from time to time. It's been noted that my attitude out on the floor is not like a lot of the other Pro/Am dancers. Dancing amateur makes one very self-reliant and focussed while competing. And who knows, maybe I will dance amateur again some time, but I am happy doing Pro/Am for now while I sort out a lot of other things going on in my life :)

Yeah. You know. It's too funny. I've gotten a ton of bites on dancepartner.com. All in Orlando, and since I moved to Dallas. What the heck! :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

have seen enough bad open dancers to know that all of the advantages in the world just can't make up for time on the floor and years under the belt...

Practical experience is quite important, but it's a slow way to learn fundamental skills. Most of those you see taking unreal lesson hours per week would get much further if they had half as many lessons - half of those on the theories and techniques and the other half on dancing, which means they'd only be doing about a quarter as much dancing through the routine as they are now.

[fascination]

Exactamente.

I am also fortunate in that I've done Amateur competition from time to time. It's been noted that my attitude out on the floor is not like a lot of the other Pro/Am dancers. Dancing amateur makes one very self-reliant and focussed while competing. And who knows, maybe I will dance amateur again some time, but I am happy doing Pro/Am for now while I sort out a lot of other things going on in my life :)
yep...am looking for an AM for this reason, tho I will say that one advantage of spending so much time w/ pro and having such aggressive goals is that he knows I won't leave and he gets sick enough of me yet feels safe enough to refuse to dance me....but am still looking for an AM

[fascination]

Practical experience is quite important, but it's a slow way to learn fundamental skills. Most of those you see taking unreal lesson hours per week would get much further if they had half as many lessons - half of those on the theories and techniques and the other half on dancing, which means they'd only be doing about a quarter as much dancing through the routine as they are now.
agree

[pygmalion]

Practical experience is quite important, but it's a slow way to learn fundamental skills. Most of those you see taking unreal lesson hours per week would get much further if they had half as many lessons - half of those on the theories and techniques and the other half on dancing, which means they'd only be doing about a quarter as much dancing through the routine as they are now.


I don't understand what you mean, Chris.

[Chris Stratton]

Yeah. You know. It's too funny. I've gotten a ton of bites on dancepartner.com. All in Orlando, and since I moved to Dallas. What the heck! :lol:

If you are in Dallas, why are you still listed for Orlando?

[pygmalion]

Too lazy to update my profile? Oh. That sounds too lame. :lol:

[fascination]

well, hmmm...are you saying that some of the lessons are about execution and some are about analysis.....certainly there should be a considerable amt of both...and more in addition to that...having said that, what I mean is that it takes time for both of those things to flower, no matter how much money folks like me are willing to throw at it

[waltzgirl]

I'm not unhappy. And I don't begrudge the women who have the resources to spend more on dancing than I can. I spend every penny I can on dancing, and if I had more, I'd spend more. I assume they are doing the same and enjoying it as much as I do.

I also wasn't putting myself down compared to those women. I was just acknowledging the fact that, if I enter competitions to compete--to win, to place well--I'm dooming myself to frustration and unhappiness, because, as things are, I'm not in a position to be truly competitive. I'd like it if I were, but c'est la vie.

I get out there and dance my best every time I put on my dance shoes. For that, I don't need a comp. So I'm still wrestling with whether/what I need a comp for.

I will admit to resenting the emphasis judges place on costuming (I read, I think on DF somewhere, that it can account for 40% of your placement). That's absurd, because all costuming reflects is money. (All right, you can spend a boatload and exhibit grotesquely bad taste, but that's rare.) If you can afford Chrisanne and Linda Doyle (who I can afford and do), that's all scoring your costume "points" really takes. I do admire people who are creative enough to create great looks on a lot less, but still, that's not really about dancing. Don't get me wrong, I love dressing up and wish Linda Doyle did my hair every day (maybe with less hairspray). But if you really look at it, it's ridiculous that costuming plays such a big part in dance competitions.

I swear, if it wouldn't embarass my pro, I'd be tempted to go out at my next comp in my practice skirt. Sure the big argument is that it's necessary to "catch the judge's eye" with your costuming. Imagine a field of couples with the women all in plain skirts and tops. Some couples would still catch your eye--by their quality of movement. What a concept!

OK, I'm in grumpy mood, because my dancing last night was frustrating, and the absurdities of the comp scene are an easy target! But still-haven't said anything I don't believe.

[Laura]

Yeah. You know. It's too funny. I've gotten a ton of bites on dancepartner.com. All in Orlando, and since I moved to Dallas. What the heck! :lol:
I got a bunch of bites via their automatic matching algorithm -- and they were all from guys who had been partners of mine in the past. So I know dancepartner.com works, because it automatically picks guys who I had already picked for myself. But, like I said, I'm not really ready to jump into anything more and new right now anyway.

[fascination]

I'm not unhappy. And I don't begrudge the women who have the resources to spend more on dancing than I can. I spend every penny I can on dancing, and if I had more, I'd spend more. I assume they are doing the same and enjoying it as much as I do.

I also wasn't putting myself down compared to those women. I was just acknowledging the fact that, if I enter competitions to compete--to win, to place well--I'm dooming myself to frustration and unhappiness, because, as things are, I'm not in a position to be truly competitive. I'd like it if I were, but c'est la vie.

I get out there and dance my best every time I put on my dance shoes. For that, I don't need a comp. So I'm still wrestling with whether/what I need a comp for.
OK, I'm in grumpy mood, because my dancing last night was frustrating, and the absurdities of the comp scene are an easy target! But still-haven't said anything I don't believe.and you didn't sound like you were doing any of that either...just frustrated...and that's fair

[Laura]

I don't understand what you mean, Chris.
Well, like with anything else, there are teachers and there are teachers, and there are students and there are students. Just taking a lot of lessons doesn't automatically make one a star. It can be done smarter than that.

[pygmalion]

I'm not unhappy. And I don't begrudge the women who have the resources to spend more on dancing than I can. I spend every penny I can on dancing, and if I had more, I'd spend more. I assume they are doing the same and enjoying it as much as I do.

I also wasn't putting myself down compared to those women. I was just acknowledging the fact that, if I enter competitions to compete--to win, to place well--I'm dooming myself to frustration and unhappiness, because, as things are, I'm not in a position to be truly competitive. I'd like it if I were, but c'est la vie.

I get out there and dance my best every time I put on my dance shoes. For that, I don't need a comp. So I'm still wrestling with whether/what I need a comp for.

I will admit to resenting the emphasis judges place on costuming (I read, I think on DF somewhere, that it can account for 40% of your placement). That's absurd, because all costuming reflects is money. (All right, you can spend a boatload and exhibit grotesquely bad taste, but that's rare.) If you can afford Chrisanne and Linda Doyle (who I can afford and do), that's all scoring your costume "points" really takes. I do admire people who are creative enough to create great looks on a lot less, but still, that's not really about dancing. Don't get me wrong, I love dressing up and wish Linda Doyle did my hair every day (maybe with less hairspray). But if you really look at it, it's ridiculous that costuming plays such a big part in dance competitions.

I swear, if it wouldn't embarass my pro, I'd be tempted to go out at my next comp in my practice skirt. Sure the big argument is that it's necessary to "catch the judge's eye" with your costuming. Imagine a field of couples with the women all in plain skirts and tops. Some couples would still catch your eye--by their quality of movement. What a concept!

OK, I'm in grumpy mood, because my dancing last night was frustrating, and the absurdities of the comp scene are an easy target! But still-haven't said anything I don't believe.

Yeah. I hear you. And absurdity is a good word. :? :cool:

[Chris Stratton]

I don't understand what you mean, Chris.

There's a lot of key skills which would take forever to pick up by being stereotypically dragged around the floor. To really get somewhere requires studying to master the specfiic techniques, which is not how most of those who can afford to take outrageous numbers of lessons spend their time. It's almost like you need the efficiency and focus of feeling the pain of each penny, but to be able to still take enough lessons to get the experience to support what you are learning.

And it also takes a teacher who can really explain those skills, not just do them.

[pygmalion]

Well, like with anything else, there are teachers and there are teachers, and there are students and there are students. Just taking a lot of lessons doesn't automatically make one a star. It can be done smarter than that.


Yeah. Work smarter not harder, and all that. I got a recommendation of a studio from a DFer I won't name. Trying that out this week, especially since Latin or rhythm is where I want to be. Keeping my fingers crossed. :cool:

[fascination]

and you can see folks who have been out there for ages spending a buttload who still can't stand up straight...meh, if they're happy...whatever

[DancePoet]

I just recently started ballroom, and it's been an awesome experience. But unlike salsa, it is not really a social dance....is it important to compete in order to advance in ballroom :?:
Ballroom not a social dance. :shock:

Hmmm ... I'm going to dance socially this evening. ;) :D

However, competing could help you improve quicker because of the goal setting involved.

[fascination]

money certainly won't buy anyone the bypass route to some easy way to dance at a high level...it just can't be bought

[waltzgirl]

Practical experience is quite important, but it's a slow way to learn fundamental skills. Most of those you see taking unreal lesson hours per week would get much further if they had half as many lessons - half of those on the theories and techniques and the other half on dancing, which means they'd only be doing about a quarter as much dancing through the routine as they are now.

But if you're dancing pro-am, more lesson time=more practice with your comp "partner," so it is an advantage. But, heaven help us, let's not get into another pro-am debate.

[Laura]

Oh, it's all completely absurd. :)

I'd kind of like to show up for my single dance events in traditional USA Dance syllabus style clothing (vest/tie/pants for Teacher, completely plain wash-and-wear dress for me) and see how it goes -- and save the tails and sparkley dress for the Scholarship event.

Didn't someone do something like this at Blackpool? It was that couple that used to be from the Netherlands, Tony & Amanda something-that-starts-with-a-D. He turned up for the early daytime rounds in a short jacket (but obviously custom made for dancing), and she wore a plain black dress. Maybe it was someone else. But it is absurd to be putting on the darn tail suit and ballgown to dance at noon. Eveningwear should be worn in the evening -- or should at least be optional for all this daytime stuff.

[fascination]

true...it is one advantage, but only if you are willing and able to execute and she/he is willing to teach the stuff of which the highest levels are made

[pygmalion]

Oh, it's all completely absurd. :)

I'd kind of like to show up for my single dance events in traditional USA Dance syllabus style clothing (vest/tie/pants for Teacher, completely plain wash-and-wear dress for me) and see how it goes -- and save the tails and sparkley dress for the Scholarship event.

Didn't someone do something like this at Blackpool? It was that couple that used to be from the Netherlands, Tony & Amanda something-that-starts-with-a-D. He turned up for the early daytime rounds in a short jacket (but obviously custom made for dancing), and she wore a plain black dress. Maybe it was someone else. But it is absurd to be putting on the darn tail suit and ballgown to dance at noon. Eveningwear should be worn in the evening -- or should at least be optional for all this daytime stuff.

*giggle* It's a pretty fair bet you'd lose. :lol:

[Laura]

and you can see folks who have been out there for ages spending a buttload who still can't stand up straight...meh, if they're happy...whatever
Yeah, exactly. It's not my job to save their dance 'careers.' I'll just keep on my plan, which I have compete faith will bear fruit for me.

[Chris Stratton]

But if you're dancing pro-am, more lesson time=more practice with your comp "partner," so it is an advantage. But, heaven help us, let's not get into another pro-am debate.

Maybe what I'm saying is that you need not just boatload of practice time with your "partner". More critically, you also need lessons with a really good teacher to solidify the fundamental skills. Sometimes that can be the same person, sometimes it can't. (Sometimes the pro-am partner is even part of the technical problem, or at least not exactly part of the solution)

Both theory and practice are required - neither one is an efficient use of money unless supported by enough of the other.

[fascination]

uh, huh...I have enough work on my own plate....and he and I are at our best when every comp floor becomes just a big practice floor with people around it...and if I get to stand at the front of the line with a ribbon around my neck from time to time, that's all good too

[pygmalion]

Yeah, exactly. It's not my job to save their dance 'careers.' I'll just keep on my plan, which I have compete faith will bear fruit for me.

Oh my goodness. Like the old ladies who dance a jillion heats (badly) and win top student awards. What the heck is that about? Okay. So you're richer than God. Uhh. You still can't dance. :lol: But at least you got a trophy.

But then, OTOH, the deal is that those ladies subsidize the sport for all the rest of us who're buying a lesson or two a week, IMO. If it were left up to us, a bunch of the dance teachers out there wouldn't be able to afford to teach. So ...

It kinda sucks, no matter how you look at it.

[waltzgirl]

Maybe what I'm saying is that you need not just boatload of practice time with your "partner". More critically, you also need lessons with a really good teacher to solidify the fundamental skills. Sometimes that can be the same person, sometimes it can't. (Sometimes the pro-am partner is even part of the technical problem, or at least not exactly part of the solution)

Both theory and practice are required - neither one is an efficient use of money unless supported by enough of the other.

So, what you're saying is that a bad teacher is a disadvantage to one's dancing progress. Oh.

I'd better get off the board until my mood improves!

:rolleyes:

[fascination]

except everyone knows what top student means...and not only that there is no real correltation between quality and top student or top teacher awards....you can have awesome teachers and students winning that or crappy teachers and students winning that...just a matter of numbers...I have seen both with regularity

[pygmalion]

So, what you're saying is that a bad teacher is a disadvantage to one's dancing progress. Oh.

I'd better get off the board until my mood improves!

:rolleyes:

Yes. A bad teacher is bad for your dancing.

But don't get off the board. PM somebody, if you need help or support. We're all here for you. :cool:

[fascination]

but yea, some good dancers and some bad dancers, but mostly rich dancers, do subsidize the sport...and everything else for that matter....it ain't heaven

[pygmalion]

except everyone knows what top student means...and not only that there is no real correltation between quality and top student or top teacher awards....you can have awesome teachers and students winning that or crappy teachers and students winning that...just a matter of numbers...I have seen both with regularity


Agreed. We all know what that award means ... well... except the top students, in some cases. :wink: :lol:

[Laura]

It kinda sucks, no matter how you look at it.
OH my the kitty claws are coming out. But yeah, totally. I don't pay attention to "Top Student" awards. Rather, I look at who wins the Scholarships at the various levels. Notice that the Open Pro/Am Scholarship winners are VERY RARELY the "Top Student".

[fascination]

do you really think they miss it when they don't even place in their single dance heats?

[Chris Stratton]

sometimes it's better not to know...

[fascination]

true

[pygmalion]

OH my the kitty claws are coming out. But yeah, totally. I don't pay attention to "Top Student" awards. Rather, I look at who wins the Scholarships at the various levels. Notice that the Open Pro/Am Scholarship winners are VERY RARELY the "Top Student".


Agreed and agreed. And agreed. :cool: :lol:

[Laura]

But don't get off the board. PM somebody, if you need help or support. We're all here for you. :cool:
Yeah totally. And until I see Chris out there competing in Pro/Am regularly, I wouldn't let him be an expert on the subject :) :).

Waltzgirl, I've gone through a lot mentally and emotionally regarding competitive dancing in general and Pro/Am in particular, and am always willing to talk or listen or what-have-you. You know how to PM if you want to.

[fascination]

and man you must have to dance a mega load...b/c I, er...dance ALOT and I have only made it into the top student lineup once and that was at a local comp(danced 61 heats) same for pro where he had his largest number of students(just once in 13 years)....its amazing...I danced 43 events in hotlanta and it didn't even put me on the radar...I was at a comp not to long ago where this positively awful teacher brought a whole passel of horrible students and he WON and they were all cheering their heads off, and well, I am sure grateful that they support ballroom, but it was clearly no honor

[fascination]

Yeah totally. And until I see Chris out there competing in Pro/Am regularly, I wouldn't let him be an expert on the subject :) :).

Waltzgirl, I've gone through a lot mentally and emotionally regarding competitive dancing in general and Pro/Am in particular, and am always willing to talk or listen or what-have-you. You know how to PM if you want to.
me too

[Laura]

and man you must have to dance a mega load...
Yep, that's for sure. It's really out of the realm of reckoning for me. But, like I said, the majority of the people dancing in the Open Pro/Am events don't play the game that way. It's a relief, actually.

Heck, Ohio Star Ball is one of the few comps out there where you don't have do do a bunch of single-dance events to "qualify" for the Scholarship -- you can just enter it directly. A woman I used to know would do just that -- show up and dance just her Scholarship on Sunday afternoon. And the last time I saw her, she came third. At Ohio. That's no small feat. She also took what most of us would consider to be a "normal" number of lessons. She was just very talented and worked as hard and as smart as she could. She also had a GREAT teacher who really could *teach* and mentor her to improve her dancing technique and performance. So it can be done, but it's not easy to get all those ducks in a line and I think for a number of people it's just easier to just throw money at the dancing.

[Chris Stratton]

Yeah totally. And until I see Chris out there competing in Pro/Am regularly, I wouldn't let him be an expert on the subject :) :).

I'm not trying to annoy people here. You want pro-am to be viewed as real dancing, then I'm looking at it in the same way as any other sort of dancing. Practice is very, very important. But practicing things that aren't quite right just reinforces habits that aren't quite right. Even if you are practicing with a much better "partner", that will help some things but not others. Amateur couples get stuck in all of these ways too - the succesful ones put in tons of time, yes, but a lot of the ones struggling to find as much time as they are are not being held back by lack of practice, they are being held back by lack of accurate information to guide their practice. It takes both.

[fascination]

yea I just wish ohio would at least allow some closed silver scholarships for those of us peons whose pros won't let us do open yet...but I really like all of the other limits and operating procedures that they employ

[fascination]

just kinda rankles me b/c I know this guy who does open and takes 20 hours a week who I place ahead of at a recent comp, but since he does open he can dance in those scholarships and I can't...I guess I could pitch a hissy and beg to dance open but I know I need to do my time....still, it's kind of a bummer to be stuck in the single dance events only there

[pygmalion]

I'm not trying to annoy people here. You want pro-am to be viewed as real dancing, then I'm looking at it in the same way as any other sort of dancing. Practice is very, very important. But practicing things that aren't quite right just reinforces habits that aren't quite right. Even if you are practicing with a much better "partner", that will help some things but not others. Amateur couples get stuck in all of these ways too - the succesful ones put in tons of time, yes, but a lot of the ones struggling to find as much time as they are are not being held back by lack of practice, they are being held back by lack of accurate information to guide their practice. It takes both.


Exactly. Get the best damn teacher you can get, the best damn partner you can get, and practice your butt off. I think that applies regardless of am-am or pro-am. Let's face it. Not every pro out there is a good teacher. And not every am out there is a good partner. And there are some stellar folks in places you'd never think to look.

We're all in the same boat, IMO. Trying to find someone to dance with who'll enhance our dance and grow with us. That's the bottom line, IMO. :cool:

[Laura]

yea I just wish ohio would at least allow some closed silver scholarships
The year I did Ohio (2001) I danced closed-silver single dances and then the open scholarship. I was like "why the heck not!?" And The-Teacher-At-That-Time was game. My avatar picture is from that day :) My goal was to not be last and to get a certain number of recalls to the next round. We managed that, and it was fun to be out there in that first round (of five rounds...I almost can't wait to go back but now that I'm all serious-n-stuff I'm skipping this year because I am simply Not Ready).

[pygmalion]

You'll be ready next year, if you decide you want to be. :cool:

[Laura]

Not every pro out there is a good teacher. And not every am out there is a good partner. And there are some stellar folks in places you'd never think to look.
And just to reiterate: not every student is a good student, either. There are issues of focus and ability to absorb and change and dedication and etc etc etc.

[Laura]

You'll be ready next year, if you decide you want to be. :cool:
Oh, I'm already heading there. Got a plan and everything. It's all good.

[pygmalion]

And just to reiterate: not every student is a good student, either. There are issues of focus and ability to absorb and change and dedication and etc etc etc.


True. But I'm so anal retentive that I tend to gloss over that.

But you're right. Both a good teacher and a good student are required.

[waltzgirl]

Thanks! I'm fine really. It's just a little storm of frustration, which happens to coincide with needing to make a decision about competing sometime inn the next few months. I know you know the feeling! And that helps a lot!

[pygmalion]

Oh, I'm already heading there. Got a plan and everything. It's all good.


Yeah. It's all about having a plan, I think. I have a forty-year plan (thanks to the Five O'Clock Club) for my career, my personal life, and my dance life. Having a plan makes all the difference, IMO. :D

[Chris Stratton]

And just to reiterate: not every student is a good student, either. There are issues of focus and ability to absorb and change and dedication and etc etc etc.

Money is no substitute for that!

Unfortunatley, being such a student is not a complete substitute for money either.

[pygmalion]

Money is no substitute for that!

Unfortunatley, being such a student is not a complete substitute for money either.


Yeah. Unfortunately, IMO, both are needed -- resources and talent. :?

[Chris Stratton]

There is no such thing as "talent".

Only determination to do and to learn, the requisite humility and resilience to survive, the freedom to concentrate on the task, and the resources to support it.

[DancePoet]

let me start with alot of people are totally happy with social dancing... They move along with the learning with no pressure at all. then there is the type of people that need a goal, something to work toward.. That would be me... I think that setting a date of a competion is a great way to motivateyourself...Noone wants to walk out in front of a group and be unprepared. It doesn't have to be a comp. it could be a showcase... The point is that you set goals and move toward them... That way you feel you have progressed.
Ayuh, glad you brought this thread back. :cool:

Some folks can grow through social dancing, others grow through setting goals. Either way can work.

[pygmalion]

Oh come on! There is so such a thing as talent. (Do you remember those kindergarten verbal duels? So let's duel. :tongue: :lol: Just kidding!!! ) But you're right, Chris, IMO. Being willing to work... I mean really work... wins, in the end, IMHO. Ya gotta work it. :D

[fascination]

The year I did Ohio (2001) I danced closed-silver single dances and then the open scholarship. I was like "why the heck not!?" And The-Teacher-At-That-Time was game. My avatar picture is from that day :) My goal was to not be last and to get a certain number of recalls to the next round. We managed that, and it was fun to be out there in that first round (of five rounds...I almost can't wait to go back but now that I'm all serious-n-stuff I'm skipping this year because I am simply Not Ready).well cool...maybe in 2007 I'll do the open one then...but I had at least better have all of my silver by then...plotting:cool:...gotta say i really respect that about pro...he would never put me out into open without very sound fundamentals...much as I don't like him today (nother thread nother time) I really respect him

[fascination]

Thanks! I'm fine really. It's just a little storm of frustration, which happens to coincide with needing to make a decision about competing sometime inn the next few months. I know you know the feeling! And that helps a lot!come to heritage or indiana challenge;)

[fascination]

Oh come on! There is so such a thing as talent. (Do you remember those kindergarten verbal duels? So let's duel. :tongue: :lol: Just kidding!!! ) But you're right, Chris, IMO. Being willing to work... I mean really work... wins, in the end, IMHO. Ya gotta work it. :Dtritto....I've seen loads of young people who should be what you would call talented, but they don't want it badly enough:cool:

[tanya_the_dancer]

I will admit to resenting the emphasis judges place on costuming (I read, I think on DF somewhere, that it can account for 40% of your placement).

I remember reading this in July or August issue of Dancebeat, in one of the advice columns.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Oh come on! There is so such a thing as talent. (Do you remember those kindergarten verbal duels? So let's duel. :tongue: :lol: Just kidding!!! ) But you're right, Chris, IMO. Being willing to work... I mean really work... wins, in the end, IMHO. Ya gotta work it. :D

I think there is such thing as talent/natural ability. It is true in all areas, not just dancing. I remember one of my classmates - no matter how hard she studied, how much effort she put in, she could barely pull in C's in 6th grade math, while I brought in A's for the same stuff with minimal effort (I got to the point in math when I couldn't get a concept, no matter how much effort I put in, but it wasn't until my last year as undergrad). Or back to dancing, once in a while at the socials, we get a brand-new girl who can follow basics just like that, or a guy who picks up things on the fly, and it takes some people months or even years to learn that.

[waltzgirl]

Well, "talent" is such a loaded word. I prefer to think of it as a pre-disposition toward certain activities. I do think everybody is wired to do certain things better or more easily, physical or mental. Certain synapses make it easier to use words or numbers; a lot of fast-twitch muscles gives you "talent" for certain sports (and latin dancing).

But, since people tend to gravitate toward the things they are most adept at and also tend to be encouraged and praised for those things (unless there's a sad mismatch between aptitude and environment), the influence of training and practice probably kicks in in early childhood. Intellectually, I'm wired for words, not numbers. Did this happen becuase my parents read to me a lot, or did they read to me a lot because I obviously loved it (and probably demanded it!)? By the time anyone got around to evaluating my "talent," like when I started school, both nature and nurture had been at work for years.

I doubt that the person who "picks up" dancing really quickly was a total couch-potato until that moment. Probably some combination of physical apititude and some other kind of sports/movement activity had been going on all their lives.

[Chris Stratton]

I remember one of my classmates - no matter how hard she studied, how much effort she put in, she could barely pull in C's in 6th grade math, while I brought in A's for the same stuff with minimal effort (I got to the point in math when I couldn't get a concept, no matter how much effort I put in, but it wasn't until my last year as undergrad).

Presentation

If you are putting in effort and it's not making sense or does not feel possible, then it needs to be presented or approached in a different way.

[Chris Stratton]

I doubt that the person who "picks up" dancing really quickly was a total couch-potato until that moment. Probably some combination of physical apititude and some other kind of sports/movement activity had been going on all their lives.

If you have a teaching program that does not really present specific advice to beginners, if they are left to figure out a lot on their own, then this is true to an extent. But it produces a type of dancing that is at first impressive, but eventually revealed to have poor basis in technique. On the other hand, if you teach the key skills from day one, in detail as if you were introducting them to a total couch potato, then you can not only train couch potatoes to dance, you can train anyone who sticks with the class to dance quite well.

You would think for example that MIT must surely get fewer students with strongs sports or dance backgrounds than other Boston schools known for a broader range of subjects. Yet why does the MIT team routinely fill half or more of the beginner smooth final at the first competition of each fall's collegiate season? Because they actually teach the key skills, to students who are prepared to learn them either as something new and unfamiliar, or in a few cases as a drastic refoucusing of something they might have had only approximate ideas of before.

[waltzgirl]

if you teach the key skills from day one, in detail as if you were introducting them to a total couch potato, then you can not only train couch potatoes to dance, you can train anyone

Yup. I'm living proof.

[PasoDancer]

ok bear with me- I've had a lot of pills and it's been a bad night. Not a bad dance night but after that things went realy down hill (acutely speaking):

Yes, I think my negative feelings about competition stem from the nasty, underhanded ways women are socialized to compete with one another. Boy, I hate it when I'm standing waiting to go on the floor and some woman gives me that hostile appraising head-to-toe scan.
Just remember- they can't do it if their head's been slapped around backwards. And dont let it bother you- they probably have really crappy sex lives which is why they're so interested in damaging your ego or something.

On comping agian:

I think even J is actually interested in this "proficiency" sort of thing- where it's more of a grade than a color. The whole "winning" thing- been there, done that with horses. Not to brag, but I was the cat's pajamas for a few years, and really loved it. But eh- I don't want to do that with dancing. I always like to kind of see how we measure up, in the grand scheme of things, but Nashville was good enough for us for that. We were just about dead average, and I liked it.

Another good thing about dancing is that "money doesn't buy talent"... with showing horses, a several-thousand-dollar horse WILL get you in the ribbons if you sit there and just let it work. Dancing is in YOUR OWN BODY- and you HAVE To do the homework. So anyone at the top- well, we might or might not hate them, they might suck at this or that, but, begrudingly- they aren't there because they 'bought it'.

Maybe what I'm saying is that you need not just boatload of practice time with your "partner". More critically, you also need lessons with a really good teacher to solidify the fundamental skills. Sometimes that can be the same person, sometimes it can't.

This is what I try to tell the Ill Divo all the damn time... dance wtih other people a- to see how you measure up as a lead- and B- to actually GET LEAD epskerience, same with follow. it's why we doulbe book sometmes.

There is no such thing as "talent".

Only determination to do and to learn, the requisite humility and resilience to survive, the freedom to concentrate on the task, and the resources to support it.

That I don't know if i agre with or not- there are people who have learning ability, humilit;y and resilience- and still suck butt. Like five of them go to my school.

If you have a teaching program that does not really present specific advice to beginners, if they are left to figure out a lot on their own, then this is true to an extent.

Hey! Stop talkin' bout our area schools! Lol

pleae forgive all "you write like an impovrerished third grader from an underdeveloped country" errors. Agian.. LONG NIGHT.

[pygmalion]

Here's hoping the night gets better from here, PD.

And, typos notwithstanding (like who am I to judge -- typo Queen of the universe -- that's me LOL! ) You make some good points.

Not sure I agree with hating people at the top, though. I'm not a hater, I don't think. Just acknowledging that the playing field, in ballroom competition, can be grossly uneven, depending on your financial resources. So, fairly early in the game, when I saw the lay of the land, I decided to reassess my measures of success. I could still be spending $20K a year on dance. It'd be tight, but I could do it. But what would I be accomplishing, by my own measure of success? Not much. Or at least, not necessarily much.

Ya know. There are some advantages to being old (or old-solescent. *wink* ) One is having been on the planet long enough to know who you are. I'm not a competitive dancer -- or competitive person, period. So why spend the time, goo-gobs of cash, and effort on competing? All that'd get me is evaluated on somebody else's terms. Great. And then what?

How much better, in my mind, to figure out my own measure of success and go for it with all I have.


Have a better night, PD. :cool: :)

[Laura]

Ya know. There are some advantages to being old (or old-solescent. *wink* ) One is having been on the planet long enough to know who you are. I'm not a competitive dancer -- or competitive person, period. So why spend the time, goo-gobs of cash, and effort on competing? All that'd get me is evaluated on somebody else's terms. Great. And then what?
This self-knowledge thing is key. The first time around, Before I Quit Last February, I wanted to be a competitive dancer but kept telling myself I "couldn't" be one. Too old, too fat, too this, too that. So I quit. Lucky for me The Teacher turned pro when he did and suggested I try coming back, because now that I'm back I know I am doing it because it's something I love. I mean really, I walked away completely and was one closet-cleaning away from giving away all my costumes and unused shoes, but I came back for no other reason than that I chose to. And the thing is, for me this time I'm getting past telling myself what I can and can not be, because I'm here because that's who I am.

Everyone is different and the only 'right' answer is the one that is right for you. The important thing is to discover what is right for you and follow that path.

[pygmalion]

Exactly. :)

[fascination]

good golly...it mostly all boils down to; do it if you want to, don't if you don't, know why either way, and leave judgements and insecurites about others alone...pretty much fits for all of life, and mostly never gets followed

[pygmalion]

Yeah. You do have to be very comfortable in your own skin. :cool:

[fascination]

yep...and that too is a life skill that takes alot of work to arrive at and finally be in a space where maintaining it is fairly easy, such is life