The Future of DanceSport

[SDsalsaguy]

Woah! Talk about a move that could shake things up something fierce...

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The Future of DanceSport

September 30, 2003 – Wilmington, DE – In the future, all DanceSport athletes will compete against one another based on proficiency level and skill. Amateurs and professionals will be able to compete in the same events and earn the right to advance in DanceSport based on competition results. Dancing, as a sport, will advance as all dancers will be eligible to compete. This is the vision for DanceSport in the United States set forth by the USA DanceSport Council, USABDA’s advisory and administrative body for DanceSport athletes and competitions. This is not a new vision. The countries that are most successful in producing champions and in attracting high percentages of their population to DanceSport, already have adopted this practice which is supported by the International DanceSport Federation (IDSF).

To support this vision, the USA DanceSport Council has recommended the following sweeping proposals to USABDA’s board:

1. Eliminate the distinction between Amateurs and Professionals and open competitions to all DanceSport Athletes. This new proposal will classify dancers based on proficiency and skill, rather than income generating activities. The new format will open USABDA competitions to all athletes and allow them the chance to develop their dancing and floorcraft. Dancers who currently compete in rising star or professional open competitions will also be allowed to enter USABDA competitions, with their prior competition results used to determine their proficiency level.

This new rule will benefit all dancers. Those formerly designated as Amateurs will no longer be constrained from earning money from teaching or performing shows using their DanceSport skills. Many competitors would like to have the option of offsetting their DanceSport expenses without the risk of losing their competitive status. By eliminating the distinction between Amateurs and Professionals, all dancers can compete on one equal playing field (or in this case, dancefloor). All competitors will simply be DanceSport Athletes.

2. Create a new proficiency level, World-Class Competitor. Only couples that have earned and currently maintain a high level of DanceSport proficiency may compete in designated World-Class events. In order to dance at the World-Class level, a couple must earn points in qualifying events.

3. Develop new rules to allow mixed-proficiency level couples to compete in separate DanceSport events. For example, a champion level dancer could compete with a syllabus level dancer where only the syllabus dancer is judged. These changes will make it easier for champion level dancers to find and develop new partners and give those without regular partners an opportunity to compete in USABDA events. Rules similar to the current “Pro-Am” rules would apply to this type of partnership.

The goal of these changes is to open DanceSport to all athletes and remove barriers to competition. USABDA, the only US DanceSport organization recognized by the US Olympic Committee and International DanceSport Federation, is committed to furthering ballroom dancing in the US by attracting new dancers to the sport and improving the quality of all competition levels.

USABDA represents its members, and as such welcomes your input on these proposed rule changes. These changes will be on the agenda at the next USABDA Governing Council’s meeting. Please email your comments and suggestions to: futureofdancesport@usabda.org

[pygmalion]

Seems ultimately fair and reasonable. Hence, my complete lack of belief that such rules will ever be put in place! :lol: Seriously, though, this bears watching. Wow!

[smoothdancingirl]

I seriously doubt if the professional organizations will ever go for this. There has already been a big controversy over amatures being able to teach. I personally don't see the problem with changing competitive divisions. But I do see a problem with uncertified amature teachers. Again just because you know Math doesn't make you certified to be a Math teacher. Same with dancing.

[SDsalsaguy]

I seriously doubt if the professional organizations will ever go for this. There has already been a big controversy over amatures being able to teach. I personally don't see the problem with changing competitive divisions. But I do see a problem with uncertified amature teachers. Again just because you know Math doesn't make you certified to be a Math teacher. Same with dancing.
First off, welcome to the forums smoothdancingirl! :D

I also agree wholeheartedly that dancing and teaching ability are not the same thing! At the same time, however, there are a lot of upper ranking competitive ams who have far more technical training then over half of the "pros" teaching. If you want to say that certification should be the requirement to be considered a pro then, again, I wholeheartedly agree. Just because you are paid, however, does not – in and of itself – make you a "professional" in anything save financial terms.

[Adwiz]

I'm in favor of rules that open up competition to make it more interesting, but not rule changes that allow amateurs to teach. I suppose it's tough for the governing body to do one without the other.

In Canada, our state-equivalent dance organizations adopted rules some time ago that force you to move up to new levels once you've achieved enough points. DanceSport BC, the governing body in my province, makes you move up to Gold after winning three competitions at the Silver level (a total of 9 cumulative points). You get 3 points for a win, 2 for second place, 1 for third. This gives people incentive to keep trying at their level, but once they've won a few times moves them up to a higher level to give others a chance at the level they were at.

This system really works well, though some people say it forces them to move up before they are quite ready, as in the case of someone who placed third several times, then second several times and never had a win before they have to move up the ladder. I feel you have to draw the line somewhere and I'm comfortable with this points structure.

My view is also that amateurs should be allowed to earn money from performances, but not teaching. That doesn't sit right with me and suggests that things can get out of control quite easily. We already have "professionals" teaching in settings like community night school courses who, in my view, should not be certified to teach. What happens when amateurs are allowed to do that as well?

[SDsalsaguy]

Just to play devil's advocate Adwiz... what about when some amateurs are more qualified then some of the nightclass "pros" you mention?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be distinctions but, rather, posing the question of what differences (if any) there should be and why...

[Adwiz]

Just to play devil's advocate Adwiz... what about when some amateurs are more qualified then some of the nightclass "pros" you mention?

That's a good point, and certainly possible.

But if that argument is used to certify amateurs as teachers, then it must be accompanied by more rigorous certification. A great dancer isn't necessarily a great teacher.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but currently the requirements for teacher certification seem to be based mostly on head knowledge. The ISTD gives you some tests to prove you know sufficient details about dance in theory, combined with medal test results to show you can actually dance. That's a good start, but not enough, especially if you now massively increase the size of the teaching field by including amateurs. It does not prove that you can actually teach someone what you know. That's my concern. I don't mind amateurs being allowed to teach as long as the quality of teaching is as good or better than it is now, and I'm not convinced that will be the case. How can it be without changes to certification itself?

[SDsalsaguy]

Fair enough Adwiz... and I'll be the first to agree that dancing ability and teaching ability are far from synonymous. As far as certification is concerned, have you seen the certification thread (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=883) yet? I'd be interested to see what you have to say on the matter...

[Porfirio Landeros]

I don't think that [good] professional teachers should be concerned with amateurs entering the teaching market at all, since students (aka The Market) always want to buy from the best. Word will get around who is good and who is bad, and the best teachers (regardless of their competitive status) will come out with the largest clienteles.

In the long run, this may also help produce better professional instructors, since the teaching-amateur population, which is required to certify, will drive the standards and expectations upward, given that currently there are so many low-end teachers that start teaching only a few weeks after answering a want ad.

I have faith that good teaching and good dancing will prevail in the end.

8)

[pygmalion]

Hey guys. I don't mean to be difficult here, but, at least in the US, there is no certification requirement before becoming a dance "pro". Head on over to the certification thread, please, and post what you think about that. Or if things are different in other places, please post. I'm quite curious about that.

On this issue, recently, the local Arthur Murray's placed an ad for a part-time dance teacher. I almost applied, because I thought their six week training program wuold be a great place for me to learn (and to get a couple hundred hours of free dance training! :lol: ) But, because I've decided to go into competitive dance, no AMI for me. I can't afford to be grouped with pros.

[DancingMommy]

Bumping this thread up so that someone can update us on this.....

[Laura]

Basically, #2 and #3 happened, but #1 did not.

[DancingMommy]

Why the hesitation to adopt #1, I wonder?

<sigh> Why can't we all just get along.......

[TemptressToo]

This has already been discussed before...but I haven't heard what the final verdict was about making DanceSport an Olympic sport. What does anyone think of that? I think it is the equivalent of figure skating and rhythmic gymnastics in that it requires much of the same flexibility, stamina, grace and originality. I think it would be very good for dance as a whole showing everyone that this isn't your granny's ballroom. Especially for people that have never seen a pro comp before.

[Chris Stratton]

This has already been discussed before...but I haven't heard what the final verdict was about making DanceSport an Olympic sport.

It's looking extremely unlikely to happen, and as a result I wonder if it's time to re-evaluate the merits of treating it like an Olympic sport.

[Porfirio Landeros]

... I wonder if it's time to re-evaluate the merits of treating it like an Olympic sport.So we can lure more dudes out of football, baseball, and wrestling. If we keep them fooled it's a sport, they'll be more likely to give it a whirl. Otherwise, we'll lose them to Nascar.

[TemptressToo]

Otherwise, we'll lose them to Nascar.

TOO funny! If you have ever sweated like a pig dancing anything smooth or rhythm...you'd agree it is very sport like. It is just as much a sport as Ice Dancing, Figure Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming.

[Laura]

The bottom line is that dancesport does not get good enough TV ratings in the US to be included in the Olympics. The US is the world's largest television market, the US Networks pay more for the rights to Olympic coverage than anyone else, so basically they have a good deal of influence these days over what goes on at the Olympics.

Basically DanceSport was rejected for inclusion in the Beijing/2008 Olympics, but it wasn't rejected completely -- meaning that DanceSport can try again for 2012. Some other sports were rejected to the point that they were told to go away and never try again.

Perhaps this whole "Strictly Come Dancing USA" thing is an attempt to raise interest in dancesport again in the US so as to move toward getting it into the Olympics. They couldn't get high enough ratings by having regular competitions and then made-for-TV competitions back in 2000, so perhaps by wrapping it in a "reality" show they can get better ratings and jumpstart interest.

We'll see.

[Medira]

Otherwise, we'll lose them to Nascar.

TOO funny! If you have ever sweated like a pig dancing anything smooth or rhythm...you'd agree it is very sport like. It is just as much a sport as Ice Dancing, Figure Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming.
Having competed in a provincial or national standard in all but the ice events, I can definitely say that dancing is just as rigorous and demanding as the sports mentioned above. I don't see why it shouldn't be included, especially given the fact that there is already an international standard.

[Chris Stratton]

But is the challenge really the sport aspect? Or is that just one of the tools involved in doing something that is really about much more? If we emphasize the sport aspect, do we loose sight of the others?

[Medira]

But is the challenge really the sport aspect? Or is that just one of the tools involved in doing something that is really about much more? If we emphasize the sport aspect, do we loose sight of the others?
The challenge is in the preparation and perfection that you aim for when preparing for competition. It's also when you compete against other couples and see where you can improve in comparison to them...then you get the satisfaction of seeing the strides toward your goal at subsequent competitions, but that's probably more than we're going to chat about here.

Sport is just a loose definition for an organized, competitive activity that requires athletic ability, practice, desire, determination and, for the higher echelons of competition, talent. Those who truly love what they're doing will hang on to the essence that makes dance so much more than just a sport.

I think, if it's done correctly, exposing more people to the ballroom world is a good thing...

[DancingMommy]

Perhaps this whole "Strictly Come Dancing USA" thing is an attempt to raise interest in dancesport again in the US so as to move toward getting it into the Olympics. They couldn't get high enough ratings by having regular competitions and then made-for-TV competitions back in 2000, so perhaps by wrapping it in a "reality" show they can get better ratings and jumpstart interest.

We'll see.

I HAVE IT! We get Donny Burns, Sam Sodano & Victoria Regan together to judge hundreds of ballroom dancers from all over America.... then we put together a top 12 couples and have America vote....

Of course we have to let some lousy dancers in just to make it interesting.....

[skwiggy]

Ooh, or for the mainstream celebrity appeal we could have MC Hammer to tell everyone they were "off the hook", Carmen Electra to comment on wardrobe, and Jamie King to talk about his celebrity resume. Oh, wait...

[DancingMommy]

Don't you get it? Simon, Randy and Paula... I crack myself up....b

[skwiggy]

Yup, I get your joke. Did you get mine? 8)

http://abcfamily.go.com/dancefever/

[Laura]

Sport is just a loose definition for an organized, competitive activity that requires athletic ability, practice, desire, determination and, for the higher echelons of competition, talent.

I don't know...what you just described would fit someone trying to get into a ballet company or modern dance troupe. Personally, I think it's a sport if it fits the Olympic motto: Stronger, faster, higher. DanceSport can't be measured objectively using a stopwatch, scale, or measuring stick. Therefore, I don't think it should be in the Olympics. And by that token, I wouldn't cry if figure skating, diving, sychronized swimming, gymnastics etc. were also removed.

I think, if it's done correctly, exposing more people to the ballroom world is a good thing...

I have never bought the argument that just having a sport in the Olympics will increase its popularity, especially when it comes to people in America. There are a number of Olympic sports out there that the general American public really doesn't give a rip about (Modern Pentathlon, or curling, for instance). And there are a number of sports that the general American public really doesn't give a rip about except in Olympic years (like track -- Nike ran a whole ad campaign about how track stars are basically nobodies in the US). And yes, I know I'm making it all about Americans, but the truth is with the strangle hold that the US networks have on locking up television rights the tastes of the American public have a lot to do with what is included, and what of the included things get aired. Even if dancesport does get into the Olympics, it's not like they'll show the dance tournament, or even anything other than the finals, unles US dancers are major powers.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but if we can't even get the WD&DSC and/or IDSF world championships on TV due to lack of interest, then the Olympics isn't going to be a magic bullet. What dancesport needs -- what figure skating has -- is non-dancing (or non-competing) FANS who make the sport come alive. Figure skating grew a fan base over the years that provided the TV ratings that have propelled it to being a winter time fixture. But even that is changing....

Figure skating has slipped so much in ratings over the past few years that ABC didn't even bother to show the world championships this year, despite being the official network of the world championships for nearly as long as I can remember. Rather, all the coverage was shifted over to ABC-owned ESPN.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, in that it's hard to build a fan base in this country without TV coverage, and it's impossible to get TV coverage without a fan base. Pehaps this "Strictly Come Dancing" thing will help to build a fan base -- especially if competition organizers can leverage off of this to get actual spectators to actual competitons. We'll know we're on to something when we start seeing bunch of people show up just because they wanted to see the dancing and heard there was a comp -- not just because their cousin is competing or they're a dancer themselves, etc.

[ThreeStep]

Hey Laura, how about this...

Next time you see me at the studio, and you see me head to the restroom to change, go and hide in the small ballroom. When I walk out of the bathroom, burst through the door into the hallway and whack me in the leg with something. I'll get all upset and cry about how I can't do my next competition, and how my life was ruined, and how that competition was going to be my big chance etc etc. And then you go get caught by police. And then we'll figure out what to do from there. Oh, and we'll make sure it's caught on tape.

ThreeStep
(ratings, baby)

[cocodrilo]

Otherwise, we'll lose them to Nascar.

TOO funny! If you have ever sweated like a pig dancing anything smooth or rhythm...you'd agree it is very sport like. It is just as much a sport as Ice Dancing, Figure Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming.
Having competed in a provincial or national standard in all but the ice events, I can definitely say that dancing is just as rigorous and demanding as the sports mentioned above. I don't see why it shouldn't be included, especially given the fact that there is already an international standard.
Yeah, why not have dance? They've allowed "curling" which looks very similar to something I do while out on my front porch every morning.

Beijing is desperately trying to get mah jong in for the next Olympics. Gimme a break! It's a bloody BOARD GAME! :evil:

[ayume]

Beijing is desperately trying to get mah jong in for the next Olympics. Gimme a break! It's a bloody BOARD GAME! :evil:

Well, I guess if there are Poker championships, there could be mahjong championships too...*shrug*

Actually, mahjong is a game similar to bridge, except they use blocks instead of cards. There are a couple of different styles but it's always played by 4 people; Hong Kong style mahjong plays with 13 "cards" per player.

[cocodrilo]

Beijing is desperately trying to get mah jong in for the next Olympics. Gimme a break! It's a bloody BOARD GAME! :evil:

Well, I guess if there are Poker championships, there could be mahjong championships too...*shrug*

Actually, mahjong is a game similar to bridge, except they use blocks instead of cards. There are a couple of different styles but it's always played by 4 people; Hong Kong style mahjong plays with 13 "cards".
Is there Olympic poker? :shock:

[ayume]

I doubt it...else the Olympic Commitee will have to come up with hundreds of thousands of dollars for any poker player to play! :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

Someone was actually running TV adds advocating for poker in the Olympics... can't help but wonder if that was a stunt to prove they could get on TV (and there actually are televised poker tournaments, right?)

[tacad]

I've gotta admit that I don't think of dancing as a sport. Just not my perception. It's more like disciplined passion and art to me.

[Medira]

Otherwise, we'll lose them to Nascar.
TOO funny! If you have ever sweated like a pig dancing anything smooth or rhythm...you'd agree it is very sport like. It is just as much a sport as Ice Dancing, Figure Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics and Synchronized Swimming.
Having competed in a provincial or national standard in all but the ice events, I can definitely say that dancing is just as rigorous and demanding as the sports mentioned above. I don't see why it shouldn't be included, especially given the fact that there is already an international standard.
Yeah, why not have dance? They've allowed "curling" which looks very similar to something I do while out on my front porch every morning.
Heh...curling is actually harder than it looks. To cast the 45lb. (20kg.) stone from an elongated lunge position after pushing off from the hack is murder on the thighs, calves and back. It isn't something I'd take up seriously though...just isn't my thing.

[Medira]

Sport is just a loose definition for an organized, competitive activity that requires athletic ability, practice, desire, determination and, for the higher echelons of competition, talent.
I don't know...what you just described would fit someone trying to get into a ballet company or modern dance troupe. Personally, I think it's a sport if it fits the Olympic motto: Stronger, faster, higher. DanceSport can't be measured objectively using a stopwatch, scale, or measuring stick. Therefore, I don't think it should be in the Olympics. And by that token, I wouldn't cry if figure skating, diving, sychronized swimming, gymnastics etc. were also removed.
To be honest, I don't have strong feelings as to whether they're Olympic sports or not, but I do think that it television ratings shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether or not a sport (activity?) is included, it should be consistent guidelines.

I think, if it's done correctly, exposing more people to the ballroom world is a good thing...
I have never bought the argument that just having a sport in the Olympics will increase its popularity, especially when it comes to people in America.
Again though, that goes back to whether or not it is done correctly. I'm all for making the world of dance more known to people, but there needs to be research and planning into the most effective way to do it.

To be honest, I didn't watch any of the Athens Olympics. I was away at the cottage where we get no reception...I don't usually watch tv as it is anyway. I watch last year's (2004) Super Bowl, but that's the last television program I watched start to finish. TV doesn't hold my attention, so I'm probably not the best person to speak about it anyway. ;)