What to do when your lead is not in time to music

[cookie]

I've had a number of dances with guys (and not always beginners, either) who just seem to lose track of the music and are doing everything perfectly just not in time anymore.

I never know what is best in these situations. Should I dance in time to the music (but sometimes a bit against his movements) hoping he'll get the hint and dance in time to the music, or ignore the music and dance to his steps.

I used to do the first but now do the second, because it makes for a better dance, but it ruins the dance for me, because I don't enjoy just stepping about, I like to dance TO the music. Also, i wonder if I always just follow his rhythm, the guy never learns that he's out of time and will dance 'off-beat' forever.

what do you think (guys and girls)

[Sabor]

What to do when your lead is not in time to music

there are different timings to music.. example: on1, on2, on3.. where to some people anything other than on1 for instance would seem ''off beat".. but its not .. THE KEY to know if they are or not is deliberation or consitency on that particular timing..

HOWEVER.. if they do not follow any pattern in time and is haphazard ie. no sense of any time .. then its no longer dancing..

ultimately i would continue the dance this time and try to break away and do alot of solo freestyle or shines etc.. and gracefully refuse to dance if they ask again.. or untill that time they can dance + give them advice IF they are open to it.

[Sagitta]

Sabor cookie could be talking about a dance other then salsa...

I concur with Sabor about the off-beat thing. However, I dance to the beat of my own drum. :P :) If I hear something in the music I respond to it and don't care what beat it is on.

[cocodrilo]

There's offbeat and then there's this time lapse which is (help! I don't know the terminology for that!!!) where they're like a half beat lapsed. It is beautiful, but I can't dance it. Some Cubans I have danced with dance that way and it tends to throw me off but they are sooooo smooth!

[Vin]

I agree with Sabor, unless it is someone I know or I know they like to dance to a particular timing I try and keep an open mind and believe that they hear something different in the music than I do.

I laugh because almost everytime I have been asked the question
"on1 or on2?" the person couldn't keep either timing.

[squirrel]

See this article by Edie the Salsa Freak:

http://dancefreak.com/stories/off-beat.htm

[Sabor]

There's offbeat and then there's this time lapse which is (help! I don't know the terminology for that!!!) where they're like a half beat lapsed. It is beautiful, but I can't dance it. Some Cubans I have danced with dance that way and it tends to throw me off but they are sooooo smooth!

contra-clave or contra-tiempo possibly..

[Ms_Sunlight]

I've had a number of dances with guys (and not always beginners, either) who just seem to lose track of the music and are doing everything perfectly just not in time anymore.


As a beginner, I'll be interested in the responses to this because I don't know what to do about this either. Keeping myself in time feels awkward as if I am fighting the lead, following the leader's steps when they're out of sync with the music feels pointless. I can't express myself or get into the music properly when I'm dancing at cross purposes to it. I see this as an etiquette question because on the dancefloor I don't see how I can train someone in timing nor should I -- wouldn't that be rude?

The most common thing in the salsa classes I've experienced is that a guy will to the first two steps but not leave a sufficient pause on the third before stepping out again and every bar takes them further and further off. And this is in a class situation, not a social situation, so I know what beat they're supposed to be following because the instructor's said so!

I've come to realise over the years that often the reason people can't time things correctly is because they simply can't hear it. They've never learnt to. You'll see this demonstrated when some people sing popular songs without accompaniment -- they'll go straight from one line to the next without leaving the pause between lines because, without the background music they simply can't measure it. Or, where there is a long note they will cut it short and not wait before starting the next one.

You know the sort of thing, they'll sing Delilah and go straight from "I saw the light on the night that I passed by her window" to "I saw the flickering shadows of love on her blind" without leaving the gap that in the recording is filled with the dramatic brass going Dum Dum Dum DUUUUUMMM. Which, here in South Wales where Tom Jones is a highly-beloved local hero, is nothing short of BLASPHEMY!!! :lol:

Any kind of training that focuses on the music and timing will develop this skill eventually and I don't believe that any but a tiny minority are incapable of learning it. If someone wants to learn an easy way is to pick up a simple percussion instrument -- a hand drum, sticks, maracas, or even just clapping their own hands -- and play them in time to music because the exercise of concentrating on making your own sound work with the recorded sound (or even just a metronome) works wonders but it is something you need to concentrate and work at. It's what I was taught to do when getting used to different time signatures when I was learning piano and it took me time to get down.

I don't think being corrected by someone on the dance floor whilst they're also trying to concentrate on moves, not hitting people, not falling over etc. is going to do it. There's too much other stuff going on.

[pascal]

We have a guy here (parisian A.T community) who is known for never being on the music. Yet, when I see him in A.T. parties he's always dancing with the best followers in town (young female teachers, typically). He can dance with the music if he wants (and he does when dancing with an average follower), but given the chance he'll always dance his way, fluid, clear-cut, creative, just not on any regular beat.
It seems he has learned A.T in the remote desert sands of Dune, where you can't walk on a regular beat because then a giant sand worm will come from under the surface and eat you.

[Ms_Sunlight]

It seems he has learned A.T in the remote desert sands of Dune, where you can't walk on a regular beat because then a giant sand worm will come from under the surface and eat you.

Hehehehe. I always suspected that men were from another planet!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[cookie]

just to clarify, I was talking about salsa and no, it's not someone dancing on2 or on3. (almost everyone with very few exceptions here dances on1 anyway) it's just someone who dances off beat.

Edie's articles are PERFECT and excatly what i was looking for, so thanks for posting the link.

also, her articles on how to deal with your boyfriend/girlfriend in terms of dancing are right on the mark. Never criticise, never teach unless specifically asked to and never assume you're their favourite dance partner.

[tj]

It seems he has learned A.T in the remote desert sands of Dune, where you can't walk on a regular beat because then a giant sand worm will come from under the surface and eat you.

Is he a Fremen, then?

[Larinda McRaven]

Mostly I just grin and bear it. It is not hurting me and it is only for a few minutes out of my life, so what is the big woop I guess.

He can dance with the music if he wants (and he does when dancing with an average follower), but given the chance he'll always dance his way, fluid, clear-cut, creative, just not on any regular beat.
This kinda reminds me of the way ballet originated. The dancing way back when had absolutely nothing to do with the music. The orchestra was simply there to provide so background sound (elevator muzak) and the dancing told its own story. It was not until later that they decided it would be great to try to choreograph the dances to match the music... or to use the music to highlight the choreography.

It seems he has learned A.T in the remote desert sands of Dune, where you can't walk on a regular beat because then a giant sand worm will come from under the surface and eat you.That is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time!

[Vince A]

Grin and bear it - that's what I teach, as I have had students who do not hear the music, nor feel the beat! Eventually, they will learn something on music, but dance with them until they do . . . please?

We've all been at that begin-to-dance-feel-really-uncoordinated-can't-hear-the-music point in our dancing!

[Swingolder]

Usually it is my dh. Every once in a while he loses it, and does not like to be told. So most often, I pretend that I have messed up and we pick it up together. I suppose you younger ladies will think that is terribly wrong but it works.

[tacad]

I guess you follow him and his timing. As a lead, I can try to keep my partner on the beat but there are times when it doesn't work and so I change to her timing and follow her.

[Sagitta]

We have a guy here (parisian A.T community) who is known for never being on the music. Yet, when I see him in A.T. parties he's always dancing with the best followers in town (young female teachers, typically). He can dance with the music if he wants (and he does when dancing with an average follower), but given the chance he'll always dance his way, fluid, clear-cut, creative, just not on any regular beat.

I like this. :D An AT sabor?

[Sagitta]

Usually it is my dh. Every once in a while he loses it, and does not like to be told. So most often, I pretend that I have messed up and we pick it up together. I suppose you younger ladies will think that is terribly wrong but it works. Nope. It is wonderful and why you are whom you are and why he is your dh. :wink: :)

[Joe]

It seems he has learned A.T in the remote desert sands of Dune, where you can't walk on a regular beat because then a giant sand worm will come from under the surface and eat you.

Hehehehe. I always suspected that men were from another planet!

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mars, duh!

[labelledanseuse]

There are some guys at my studio that do not dance in time to the music. They usually get so off beat that they end up dancing on the "&" between the beats. :doh:

At first I tried to dance on the right beats, hoping that they would get the message. They didn't, so I just gave up and tried to block out the music so that I wouldn't mess up.

It's kind of hard for me to understand how people can't hear the beats in the music because I've been learning about music since elementary school and I've been playing the piano for almost 6 years now. :?

[Twilight_Elena]

When I say the thread title, I was ready to answer "Kill him and move on".
:shock: I'm so cruel...
Actually, if my lead is off-beat, I stop and demonstrate the correct beat. Never had any problems after that.

Twilight Elena

[dancin_feet]

If I know the guy is a "just started" beginner, I won't worry about the beat too much. Though it feels weird not being in time with the music, I concentrate on helping him with the steps and figures and praising when he strings a few together. If it is a guy that just dances off beat because he isn't listening to the music, I'll try to pull him back onto beat. Not stop as such, but say during a cha cha open break, I'll make sure my arm is tensed enough that he can't pull it back early or late and make my foot movements more deliberate so he can see what I am doing. Backleading a bit I guess, but how are you supposed to learn to dance to the music if no-one ever shows you where you are going wrong?

Of course the praise comes in when he is back on beat again. :wink:

[meagalita]

i've been taught to try to follow them the best i can, but in my case if they are slightly fast, i make them wait a bit to be on time. but for those "in between beaters" it's really hard for me, it ends up not being very smooth.

i would never stop the dance and demo the correct time to a leader unless i was his instructor in a private lesson. the most i've done if it's someone i know very well and he's taken a lot of classes with me is to say "two. six." once or twice on beat and that's it.

[Sabor]

What to do when your lead is not in time to music

of course u can also always shoot them.. while wearing a top with ''It Wasn't Me" typed bold on it