How young is too young?

[tiadancer]

I am the director of ballroom dance program at an elementary school. Around here, ballroom dance in an elementary school is pretty common and most of the middle and high schools have classes and teams that compete in team formations as well as individually. I love teaching the kids, but I have chosen not to tell them about all of the competitions in my area (about 10 per year) because I don't want to taint them. I go to the competitions myself and see the families that make all of their kids train like professionals wearing the fake eyelashes, with fully rhinestoned dresses (complete with fake bra cups) and heels. They look like mini-Jean Bonet Ramsey's (sp) to me and it saddens me to see it. I know of a studio in my city that pays for two top pro's to come in weekly to train their kids (the studio is in their basement). Their kids are always in the finals at nationals, but they are like 6,8 & 10 years old! I am close friends with someone who trains there and they dance 2-3 hours 6 days a week! It just seems like perhaps they are throwing their kids in too deep too soon. What do you all think?

[pygmalion]

Wow! Great topic. :D

I don't know. If kids don't train intensively at an early age, can they catch up and be competitive later? Is the competition what it's all about? What are ballroom programs in other countries like? How different is an intensive ballroom program than, say, pee-wee football (in some areas of the US) or gymnastics, where kids train just as hard? Can a tough ballroom program backfire and turn kids away from the sport? Are programs like yours the key to helping the US catch up and raise the bar from dancesport in the US?

Yikes. There's a lot to your question. Let me think about this and come back. :? 8) :)

[redhead]

I honestly wish my parents did it to me when I was little (except for the bra cups lol).
I'm planning on bringing my kids (when I have them) to the studio at age 4.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah and one other question. Don't youth ballroom programs in other countries pretty strictly limit the Jon-Benet look for kids? Why does competitive dance at an early age have to be equated with the sexualization of children? Six-year-olds in bra cups? :shock: *shudder*

[Katarzyna]

It's funny, I reallly want my sister to start ballroom. She will be 6 in 2 months. She just seem soo young. I feel maybe she should wait 2 more years... Don't know.... I wish I started young...

[pygmalion]

I honestly wish my parents did it to me when I was little (except for the bra cups lol).
I'm planning on bringing my kids (when I have them) to the studio at age 4.


Anything much younger than that might be too little, though, redhead, depending on the kid, I think.

I was doing an observation at karate class the other day -- the "tiny tigers," I think they're called. Ages 2.5 up to about 5. What a fiasco! I think, if they'd been taught one-on-one or one-on-two, it might have worked. But a large group setting (about 12 in the class with two instructors) did not work.

I guess my point is that there are some developmental lower limits for kids. Below a certain age (I don't know what it is :? ) they may not be physically ready for the demands or socially ready for paying attention in a group setting ... especially boys, who tend to develop "standing still and paying attention to the teacher" skills more slowly than do girls.

It all depends on the kid, IMO.

But, like I alluded to earlier, there are elementary aged kids out there in all sorts of competitive sports, practicing 2 - 3 hours a day. Why not ballroom dance? *shrug*

[redhead]

I don't think learning to dance is much different from learning to ride a bike at that age. Sure, falls are inevitable. But if you learn early, you'll be very comfortable doing cool tricks and jumps on your bike later; if you learn too late - you'll still be able to enjoy biking, but that's about it.

[tiadancer]

I guess I am pretty opinionated about this and that is why I started it. I would NEVER allow my child to look like the ametures at that young of an age. I want my kids to be kids, get dirty climbing trees, riding bikes, playing house, etc. I think that's why I am teaching where I am teaching. I like the opportunity to teach them positive ways to interact with members of the opposite sex (especially at an age when they all have cooties). All of the costumes I have for my students are extremely modest and I don't use any steps or moves that would make them uncomfortable. For me, I am all about introducing the sport to them and if they want to get more serious and want to compete and get the dresses, shoes and make-up they will have to go someplace else. I personally don't want my children to be competative ballroom dancers. I did start at a young age and luckily for me I was in an area where at the pre-teen, junior and youth levels they had pretty strict costume rules so that it placed everyone on an equal playing field. Now, rhinestones and feathers are allowed at every level and it makes me feel sad for those who can't afford dresses like that, but who are good dancers because they get overlooked.

[pygmalion]

Yeah. It's a complex issue. :? (I love opinionated people, btw. :wink: :lol:)

When you add the whole costuming disparity, it becomes even more complex.

[ChaChaMama]

I can't wait for my daughter to be old enough to start lessons. I'm thinking around 5 years old might be right, but we'll play it by ear. The people who own the studio where we take lessons have a boy who is three years older, and they have joked ever since I was pregnant about pairing up our kids, so maybe that will happen for us. (My daughter is currently 2; their son is 5.) If not, that's fine too.

When I say "start lessons," I mean maybe one a week. I don't think 2 hours a day 6 days a week is appropriate at that young an age, though, unless the child is hankering for it. I want my daughter to choose *HER PASSION*, not for me to force it on her. If dancing winds up being that passion, then that's great. (And it wouldn't surprise me; she already loves the music and loves dancing around.) If it winds up being swimming, or soccer, or piano, that's great too.

I don't at all worry that she won't be "competitive" later on. I'm not breeding a world champion; I'm raising a human being. Now, if when she's nine or so she tells me she wants to train every day and wants to go to NYC and take from top coaches, you bet I'll do everything I can to accommodate her dream. But it has to come from HER.

I will definitely let my daughter compete in the junior divisions if she wants to (awww!), but she will not be wearing fake eyelashes at an elementary school age. I don't wear fake eyelashes when I compete, so I can't see doing that with my kid! I will let her wear make-up, just like I would if she were in "The Nutcracker" or were dressed up for Halloween, but there are limits.

:) ChaChaMama

[pygmalion]

I don't at all worry that she won't be "competitive" later on. I'm not breeding a world champion; I'm raising a human being. Now, if when she's nine or so she tells me she wants to train every day and wants to go to NYC and take from top coaches, you bet I'll do everything I can to accommodate her dream. But it has to come from HER.

Brava! :notworth: 8)

[saludas]

[quote="tiadancer"]I guess I am pretty opinionated about this and that is why I started it. I would NEVER allow my child to look like the ametures at that young of an age. I want my kids to be kids, get dirty climbing trees, riding bikes, playing house, etc./quote]

What actually makes 'getting dirty' and 'climbing trees' the 'correct' way a kid should spend his/her time? Why not 'making music', 'dancing', and the arts?

[dTas]

my two sons (13 and 16) are both in programs. non competative for the moment.

i think, however, with dancing it should be something that the child is interested in and wants to do and not pushed by the parents. when it comes to dancing you don't want your child to have a bad taste about it. it could taint their dancing preferences for their whole life!!

my older boy loves to dance and is diving in trying to learn all he can.

my younger isn't as enthusiastic. i hope he takes to it but if he doesn't then oh well... i hope its something he can come back to if he feels like it.

[redhead]

I did start at a young age and luckily for me I was in an area where at the pre-teen, junior and youth levels they had pretty strict costume rules so that it placed everyone on an equal playing field. Now, rhinestones and feathers are allowed at every level and it makes me feel sad for those who can't afford dresses like that, but who are good dancers because they get overlooked.
So, fake bra cups do help ? :lol:

[tiadancer]

What I mean by getting dirty climbing trees etc. is that I want my children to be involved in a lot of activities. I want them to try lots of things and if they have a preference towards something that is fine. I just see a lot of parents shoving their kids into private lessons and pouring their little bodies into dresses designed for grown women and it frustrates me. I am all for the arts, I graduated with a bachelor of arts degree. I just don't want to restrict my child to one thing because I only allowed that option when they were too young to have any say in it.

[pygmalion]

Yep. I thought that's where you were coming from, tiadancer. I've seen things like that, too. There's one kid who was in my karate classes back in Orlando. At nine, he was doing three karate classes a day, five days a week after school. He was on the exhibition team, and every so often, was taken out of school to perform.

He was great! I mean great. His forms were tops, and he won several state and a couple national awards. But, especially during the winters, I have no idea when he had a life outside karate and homework. I thought it was kinda creepy, to be honest. :?

[Sagitta]

I too wish that I started dance earlier. And I agree about letting kids be kids, that is encouraging them to follow their interests. It is important to introduce them to things that they can discover whetehr they have a natural knack or an interest in them. In terms of dressing up I remember a thread a while back on thsi issue. Anyway, kids, especially girls, like to play dress up, but I do agree that some comp. participants go a tad too far for me peronal tastes.

Oh, yes...and I believe Adwiz's daughter competes as well.

[redhead]

Would you say little kids' competition dresses reflect their parents' tastes? Noone can put feathers on your little girl if you're against it, right?

[saludas]

What I mean by getting dirty climbing trees etc. is that I want my children to be involved in a lot of activities. I want them to try lots of things and if they have a preference towards something that is fine. I just see a lot of parents shoving their kids into private lessons and pouring their little bodies into dresses designed for grown women and it frustrates me. I am all for the arts, I graduated with a bachelor of arts degree. I just don't want to restrict my child to one thing because I only allowed that option when they were too young to have any say in it.

Well, it is important to have parents that are open enough to actually allow the kids to experience more than soccer. Homophobia contributes to a lot of the 'my son will NOT dance' and don't discount that the limited views of a parent (for instance, a mom who only sees their kid in an old fashioned 'sport' rather than a more 'rounding' activity) make some kids not only unable to have the experience of dance, contact with the opposite sex, etc, but they also transfer their values (sometimes ok but usually sort of limiting) to their kids. Otherwise, why would kids attack a dancing peer rather than envy or idolize them? These messages come from the insular world of the 'home'.

[saludas]

Would you say little kids' competition dresses reflect their parents' tastes? Noone can put feathers on your little girl if you're against it, right?

Well said!

It usually is either the parent who can't afford the feathers or the parent of a kid who lost that is the most vocal. You certainly don't hear the parents of the winners complaining about the comp conditions. Ditto the parent who is the most insecure about their kids' ability to separate the fantasy from the reality. If you have 200 kids in the comp, you have to think - well, none of these folks have a problem with it... so all the participants are ok with it, what's the problem...

Also...

Comps are HELL when kids are on the floor because the PARENTS are screaming, pushing, and making themselves knows to the judges ("that little girl over these did an out of syllabus step") and the other members of the audience. I rarely see them teach sportsmanship, manners, or even courtesy. Why would anyone expect THEM to be concerned about the things that outside viewers have?

[redhead]

Saludas, so true! I talked to someone (with college degree, mind you) about dancing, and she looked really shocked when I told her that all of my kids will be dancers. I asked what's the matter, and she's like "but that makes boys gay". Oh my.

[Sagitta]

Saludas, so true! I talked to someone (with college degree, mind you) about dancing, and she looked really shocked when I told her that all of my kid swill be dancers. I asked what's the matter, and she's like "but that makes boys gay". Oh my. I know quite a few people who think I'm gay!! Go figure. :wink: :)

[tiadancer]

Hey- I don't want to change this over to a "dancers are gay" question, but since it was brought up I'll give my piece. I get asked all the time by non-dancers (my family and co-workers mostly) about the men I dance with and I just tell them that you would be sure to find gay men in any sport, it just seems to be more exposed in dance. Also, I think that gay men do tend to gravitate towards the arts in general, and therefore, anyone who is not gay is associated with that. I am not saying that it is right, I am just observing from my point of view.

[redhead]

LMAO

[saludas]

Hey- I don't want to change this over to a "dancers are gay" question, but since it was brought up I'll give my piece. I get asked all the time by non-dancers (my family and co-workers mostly) about the men I dance with and I just tell them that you would be sure to find gay men in any sport, it just seems to be more exposed in dance. Also, I think that gay men do tend to gravitate towards the arts in general, and therefore, anyone who is not gay is associated with that. I am not saying that it is right, I am just observing from my point of view.

Your point of view is sorta homophobic, isn't it? I think that predisposition towards a vocation or a hobby is not really sexually oriented.

[redhead]

but when someone says that hobby will change your sexual orientation... :roll:

[tiadancer]

No, don't misunderstand me. I am going the other way around. I am saying that because they are gay they tend to gravitate towards the art genre. It seems that artists are much more accepting of those who are gay than say, a football team. Therefore, I am saying that they feel most accepted and able to be expressive in that kind of setting. I am not homophobic, I had a dance partner a few years ago who is openly gay, he is one of my good friends. I am however, very conservative myself. I am not saying that the art itself leads to a certain sexual orientation. Quite the contrary is true in my opinion.
I hope I am not shooting myself in the foot. :)

[redhead]

tiadancer - just to clarify, I was talking about my buddy :D

[Ms_Sunlight]

I think that if a particular scene is more accepting towards gay people, the gay people in that scene are less likely to be fearful about being open about their orientation, and that makes a gay presence more visible.

You do all know that there are lots of gay men and women out there in any walk of life who have just not chosen to tell you about their orientation, right?

[pygmalion]

There's an older thread on that topic, somewhere, Ms Sunlight. I'll dig it out when I get home. :D

[mamboqueen]

You do all know that there are lots of gay men and women out there in any walk of life who have just not chosen to tell you about their orientation, right?

Found out one of my siblings is gay only about 10 years ago! All those years he was away in the army, and we never knew it!

As for the kids...

I want my kids to do whatever it is they want to do, within reason. I don't have endless amounts of money (if I did, *I'd* be taking 6 hours a week of lessons!), so whatever they do is going to be limited. My daughter has tried dancing, about a year ago (age 6) and wasn't thrilled with the little boys in the class who were really not into it at all, and were practically yanking her arms out of their sockets. Boys are definitely going to be tougher, for sure, to get into dancing. Their ability to pay attention and focus develops later than a girls (I'm generalizing here, but I'm sure that anyone who has raised both knows what I mean).

I guess when I think about kids who are into gymnastics and figure skating, both of which have a shorter shelf-life than dancing, I see that many of them have missed out on a lot of childhood opportunities (like climbing trees!). Many of them have tutors, and don't have regular socialization with people who aren't their competitors.

Again, I want my kids to do what it is that makes them happy, but I also want them to have well-rounded experiences in life. There's so many things I wished I had the opportunities to do when I was youner.

[tiadancer]

Mamboqueen- well said! I think you were able to verbalize a lot of what I have been trying, but failing, to say. Thank you!

[Ms_Sunlight]

Mamboqueen, your attitude is lovely.

I think being supportive of your children's dreams and ambitions, whatever they be, and giving them the best you can is far more important than how much cash you have to throw at them.

:D

[Ms_Sunlight]

Going back to the original topic, years ago I saw an amateur pre-teen disco dance troupe perform in public and I was actually disgusted at what I saw. These were little girls -- not teens but preadolescents -- doing physical moves that were overtly sexual in tight costumes. They were thrusting hips and boobs they didn't have. It was a pure pantomime of adult sexuality.

Other forms of dance -- ballet, tap, jazz, even folk dance -- would have served them as well if the idea was for them to train hard and early for a later career.

I would very much differentiate between the simple fact of a child spending large amounts of time training for something -- dance, sports, music, whatever -- and the premature sexualisation of children involving putting them in inappropriate situations and costumes. They're two seperate issues.

[smoozer]

[quote=tiadancer]I guess I am pretty opinionated about this and that is why I started it. I would NEVER allow my child to look like the ametures at that young of an age. I want my kids to be kids, get dirty climbing trees, riding bikes, playing house, etc./quote]

What actually makes 'getting dirty' and 'climbing trees' the 'correct' way a kid should spend his/her time? Why not 'making music', 'dancing', and the arts?

How about what ever moves them.

[smoozer]

Would you say little kids' competition dresses reflect their parents' tastes? Noone can put feathers on your little girl if you're against it, right?
Or maybe dictatorial coachs.

[pygmalion]

Comps are HELL when kids are on the floor because the PARENTS are screaming, pushing, and making themselves knows to the judges ("that little girl over these did an out of syllabus step") and the other members of the audience. I rarely see them teach sportsmanship, manners, or even courtesy. Why would anyone expect THEM to be concerned about the things that outside viewers have?

Yup. In other sports I've seen, it's the parents acting like idiots, much of the time ... not the kids.

It's soo bad there's no way to write rulebooks in order to give dancesport stage parents some good sense and decorum. :lol: :lol:

[mamboqueen]

That kind of parental behavior is not limited to the danceworld, unfortunately. I'm *glad* my son isn't into baseball (as much as I love it) because the stories I hear from some of his friends' parents are just unbelievable. There should be some sort of electric device that you can affix to the parents and everytime they get out of their seat, they get zapped.

I am thinking of approaching our local Rec Department and see if they'll offer some programs for the "nonathlete" so kids who don't excel can actually play a game they like without becoming the scourge of the team. Knowing my child is not that great at athletics, I really wouldn't want to set him up for disappointment, frustration and the opportunity to be ridiculed by his teammates and their parents. People just suck nowadays. *LOL* Pardon my French; it comes to the surface every now and again!

Sorry for the hijack!

[pygmalion]

Actually, what prompted my post was behavior I've seen at taekwondo tournaments. "Kick him! Kill him! Punch him" Coming out of the parents, not the kids. At the last tournament I attended, the non-competing parents were expelled from the floor. Their bizarre behavior was distracting the kids. :shock: :lol:

I think that's a big part of the problem with kids in dancesport (as well as other sports.) There are too many parents who see little Tim or Suzy as the world's next great athlete, rather than just a kid there to do their best and have fun. So the parents behave badly. Sure, somebody's kid is going to be the world's next dancesport phenomenon. But most won't. *shrug* So let's display a little common sense, shall we? 8) :lol:

[mamboqueen]

It just makes me wonder what develops in a child whose parents expect them to win all the time and act as if they were robbed if they don't? They're investing way too much of their own emotions in this. I understand they put a lot of time and money into it, but really, they could very well be creating some emotional monsters. You can only hope when the child grows up, they can acquire some sort of perspective on the whole thing.

[pygmalion]

I've often wondered that myself.

I'll never forget one taekwondo tournament in particular. A little girl who couldn't have been more than five was in the running to win a medal of some sort. During the sparring, a little boy accidentally kicked her really hard in the face. Her Mom and Dad refused to let her cry. Her Mom blew me away. "Don't you dare cry. You have to be strong. You're here to win!" Eew. What kind of twisted lessons was that little girl learning? Amazing.

[Joe]

It's funny, I reallly want my sister to start ballroom. She will be 6 in 2 months. She just seem soo young. I feel maybe she should wait 2 more years... Don't know.... I wish I started young...
It would help if you knew that she was interested--perhaps from watching you flit across the floor yourself.

[pygmalion]

I think that's a good suggestion, Joe. Maybe just immersing young kids in ballroom by example is a better approach than signing them up for lessons too early. Wasn't it DancingMommy who said that her three-year-old can identify different dances by listening to the music? Hmm. And this same kid has been pulling out the ballroom dance instruction videos and dancing along. Now that's cool. (And a heck of a lot better than Barney! :shock: :lol:)

[saludas]

I think that's a good suggestion, Joe. Maybe just immersing young kids in ballroom by example is a better approach than signing them up for lessons too early. Wasn't it DancingMommy who said that her three-year-old can identify different dances by listening to the music? Hmm. And this same kid has been pulling out the ballroom dance instruction videos and dancing along. Now that's cool. (And a heck of a lot better than Barney! :shock: :lol:)

I think the problem is the parents who will NOT let kids see other kids dancing. or even adults. They deprive the kids from a well rounded view.

Tell dad to get off the couch on Sunday, turn off the pro organized sports, and take the kids to SEE something like dance. When the adults show that ballet, dancesport, or even line dancing is an activity that is accepted in their house, then it will be accepted by the kids.

[labelledanseuse]

I had no idea that children as young as 5 were involved in ballroom dancing. And I thought starting at 15 was young! Wow. I think it's really sad how some parents push their kids to do so much (sometimes against the child's will). Childhood is supposed to be about being free of responsibilities and having fun while you still have the chance. Parents shouldn't bog down their kids with unnecessary responsibilities and make them go to competitions and push them and punish them for losing or anything... Those kids are going to end up in therapy.

Absolutely NO 6 year old child should wear padded bras or anything or the sort. No tight, revealing, "sexy" costumes with feathers, sequins, rhinestones either. That's ridiculous and I think it might give the sport a bad name.

[saludas]

Absolutely NO 6 year old child should wear padded bras or anything or the sort. No tight, revealing, "sexy" costumes with feathers, sequins, rhinestones either. That's ridiculous and I think it might give the sport a bad name.

Six year olds don't buy padded bras - their parents do.

Apparently the parents think this is all fine. And the kids do too - they certainly aren't dragged kicking and screaming to a comp!

So - the question is - whom are you saving by forbidding these things? All the participants seem happy with them.

A bad name? For who?

[standardgirl]

I honestly wish my parents did it to me when I was little (except for the bra cups lol).
I'm planning on bringing my kids (when I have them) to the studio at age 4.

Ditto!
I wish I had early training as a kid, it would've made life so much easier, but we are human beings, and we always wish the opposite......unfortunetely

[standardgirl]

Now, if when she's nine or so she tells me she wants to train every day and wants to go to NYC and take from top coaches, you bet I'll do everything I can to accommodate her dream. But it has to come from HER.



Only wish my parents would accommodate my dream......
but they only care about their dreams on me, not mine, typical parents. :shock:

[standardgirl]

It just makes me wonder what develops in a child whose parents expect them to win all the time and act as if they were robbed if they don't? They're investing way too much of their own emotions in this. I understand they put a lot of time and money into it, but really, they could very well be creating some emotional monsters. You can only hope when the child grows up, they can acquire some sort of perspective on the whole thing.

Growing up, if I didn't place first in my class, I get punished by my parents. They have always been really hard about school. I guess this could be an example to mamboqueen's question about "parents expect their childern to 'win' all the time." Because of my parents, I did really well in school all through out high school. Well, I was scared, when I was younger (elementary/middle school), and therefore, I always studied really hard for everything. Then I got the "taste" of being the top students at school, and how a lot of teachers treated you differently. Then, I wanted that myself, and I did really well in high school, too no beacuse of my parents. I don't think that it's necessarily bad for parents to push their childern in an early age. It just depends on the situation.

[standardgirl]

From my piano playing experiences, I started playing the piano when I was 5. I probably liked it for the first half a year, but it has always been a disaster to get me to practice and to class after that. Finally, my mom gave it up when I was 12 after 7 years of troubles.

Now, I am 20, I only wish that my parents had push my harder, and insisted me to continue my piano lessons, especially after my professor (I took a music theory class in college) told me that I have perfect pitch.

I mean, it's just hard to decide if you should push a child. I understand how childern should be childern. Like someone else said, we are not expecting to raise the next world champion. But how do you know if one day the child would wish that his/her parents had push them more when they were younger? Even with a lot of troubles during the process (like how much I hated my piano lessons), the child might still regret one day when he/she grows up......it's just hard.

[mamboqueen]

I'm glad it didn't have a negative effect on you (at least not that you know of; you might have unusually high expectations on yourself)...but I can't imagine PUNISHING my kids for not being first in their class. My mantra is "try your best and give your best effort". If they do really well, I actually REWARD them with a special trip to their favorite restaurant or something. While I would not personally do what your parents did, I give them credit because they must have really spent a lot of time with you for you to be where you are, and that's very important.

Some kids just are NOT going to be able to be the best at everything. I've accepted that fact, and you really have to make a conscious effort, as a parent, to be mindful of the emotional fallout that can occur when you expect too much. It's not easy, and I do a whole lot of reading about emotional well being of children, and I'm still far from getting it right. At the end of the day, I would rather have children with less emotional issues than ones with a 4.0 average that are basket cases (and I'm not suggesting you're the latter, chiwenl).

[randomMysh]

Absolutely NO 6 year old child should wear padded bras or anything or the sort. No tight, revealing, "sexy" costumes with feathers, sequins, rhinestones either. That's ridiculous and I think it might give the sport a bad name.

Six year olds don't buy padded bras - their parents do.

Apparently the parents think this is all fine. And the kids do too - they certainly aren't dragged kicking and screaming to a comp!

So - the question is - whom are you saving by forbidding these things? All the participants seem happy with them.

A bad name? For who?

The parents buy padded bra cups because they assume that's what is required in order to win. Not because they want their little girl to look like she's ready for things she's not ready for. The kids will do whatever their coach tells mommy to have them do, because at that age, mommy is always right. So yes, everyone involved goes along with it. That doesn't mean that it is a good thing, or if given an option, a lot of those parents wouldn't opt out of making Barbie dolls out of their little girls. :?

[pygmalion]

I wonder what would happen if some super-conservative judges started marking down little girls who are dressed like tarts. :roll:

[mamboqueen]

Those are usually the closet pervs! *LOL*

[Warren J. Dew]

It just seems like perhaps they are throwing their kids in too deep too soon. What do you all think?
I think it's great that you are teaching ballroom dance to children at elementary school.

I don't think it's necessary to tell the kids at that age about competition at all. Ballroom is, after all, fundamentally a social activity - ballroom competition is really just a specialized offshoot of that. It seems to me that in an elementary school setting, it's more important to teach all the kids enough basics to be able to manage on a social dance floor later in life.

If some of the parents want to push their kids to compete, let them do it outside of school.

[tsb]

a friend of mine is a concert pianist, went to camps like aspen during her adolescence. she teaches a few students, and she doesn't take anyone under the age of 10. her position is that children derive very little benefit from starting sooner because their motor skills aren't developed to an appropriate level until around that age.

i wonder if there's a general age minimum for children when in comes to partner dancing. whiile i am only considering development from a physical viewpoint, i would also wonder if this might either impede or facilitate socialization.

[Twilight_Elena]

It just seems like perhaps they are throwing their kids in too deep too soon. What do you all think?
I think it's great that you are teaching ballroom dance to children at elementary school.
I don't think it's necessary to tell the kids at that age about competition at all.
...
If some of the parents want to push their kids to compete, let them do it outside of school.

Wow. I think this topic is great.
Dance and young kids: I'm all for it. It's good for their bodies, good for their psyche.
Competitions and young kids: ONLY if it is done on a strictly informal, friendly level.
Fake eyelashes, padded bras. I am simply disgusted. A little girl of six can't possibly be thrown so early into this sexuality twist. Are they going to give them tampons to match, too? It's really freaking me out. Competitions for kids should be tailored to fit a child's psychological sensitivities. They should make special rules concerning clothes and makeup, so that it remains, still something taht children do for education and fun. Not to fullfill their parents' dreams, but their own.
I've been wanting to tell my school's principal that we should create a ballroom group, since we already have a modern dance group that's been doing choreography and stuff. But I think it would be most fitting for high school students (high school here is ages 15-17).
I wanted to make my brother take dancing lessons. He's 14. I still want him to dance, because I think it will be good for him, but I know I can't force it on him. So I'm thinking of taking him for an introductory lesson to see how it goes.

Twilight Elena

P.s. My teacher started dancing when she was 15. She didn't actually want to dance, her mom signed her up almost by force. Then she fell in LOVE with dancing. Hmm. :P

[pygmalion]

I wanted to make my brother take dancing lessons. He's 14. I still want him to dance, because I think it will be good for him, but I know I can't force it on him. So I'm thinking of taking him for an introductory lesson to see how it goes.



Good idea. Let him test out the waters and see for himself if he likes it. Good luck. :D

[Warren J. Dew]

a friend of mine is a concert pianist, went to camps like aspen during her adolescence. she teaches a few students, and she doesn't take anyone under the age of 10. her position is that children derive very little benefit from starting sooner because their motor skills aren't developed to an appropriate level until around that age.

i wonder if there's a general age minimum for children when in comes to partner dancing. whiile i am only considering development from a physical viewpoint, i would also wonder if this might either impede or facilitate socialization.
I suspect the primary benefit to starting earlier is that even young children can learn the basic step patterns - which steps are forward, sideways, or on the heels or toes. Admittedly that's the easy part.

From a physical development standpoint, I question whether there's much benefit to starting before the mid to late teens. Late teens after reaching pretty much full height seems to be the best time to build muscle fast.

From a social standpoint, I suspect there's some benefit to starting before puberty, as immediately afterwards, many boys will be so distracted by the fact that they are holding a girl in their arms that it may be difficult for them to learn even the step patterns.

[saludas]

I don't think it's necessary to tell the kids at that age about competition at all. Ballroom is, after all, fundamentally a social activity - ballroom competition is really just a specialized offshoot of that. It seems to me that in an elementary school setting, it's more important to teach all the kids enough basics to be able to manage on a social dance floor later in life.

If some of the parents want to push their kids to compete, let them do it outside of school.

I agree to this only if Soccer is never played on a field as a game. Or Baseball is done simply as excercises on a field, with no games played.

And that will NEVER happen.

It's absurd to think kids will not see the correlation between playing other 'organized' sports and ballroom dancing. Competition is a way of adding value and a gamelike atmosphere to the lessoning etc.

Who would stay in Soccer if all it was was drills and excercises?

[mamboqueen]

There is no problem letting them know that dancing can be done competitively, but most teens are probably going to be interested in dancing for other reasons - like to get out of the house on Friday nights and try to meet and impress members of the opposite sex.

[pygmalion]

Which leaves ballroom out of the equation for most teens in the US, I'm guessing. :lol: :lol: (Anybody want to start a competitive grinding team? :shock: :lol: Just kidding!! )

[saludas]

There is no problem letting them know that dancing can be done competitively, but most teens are probably going to be interested in dancing for other reasons - like to get out of the house on Friday nights and try to meet and impress members of the opposite sex.

We are talking about preteens and kids. The 'problem' is getting the PARENTS to understand why dancing is a good idea for the preteens.

There is a lot of social interaction amongst any group of kids - wheter it is baseball practice or a dance class - bonding and cameraderie is part of the gradeschool experience. The problem is when parents try to impose their values and need for 'success' on these kids and their activities.

[Another Elizabeth]

I agree to this only if Soccer is never played on a field as a game. Or Baseball is done simply as excercises on a field, with no games played.

Who would stay in Soccer if all it was was drills and excercises?
My friends and I used to play soccer without keeping score pretty regularly - I think that's closer to what Warren is suggesting than "drills and exercises."

[Twilight_Elena]

I don't think it's necessary to tell the kids at that age about competition at all. Ballroom is, after all, fundamentally a social activity - ballroom competition is really just a specialized offshoot of that. It seems to me that in an elementary school setting, it's more important to teach all the kids enough basics to be able to manage on a social dance floor later in life.

If some of the parents want to push their kids to compete, let them do it outside of school.

I agree to this only if Soccer is never played on a field as a game. Or Baseball is done simply as excercises on a field, with no games played.

And that will NEVER happen.

It's absurd to think kids will not see the correlation between playing other 'organized' sports and ballroom dancing. Competition is a way of adding value and a gamelike atmosphere to the lessoning etc.

Who would stay in Soccer if all it was was drills and excercises?

I'd play games with my friends. There's no need to sign up for a big soccer comp inorder to enjoy the sport, is there?

Twilight Elena

[Twilight_Elena]

Which leaves ballroom out of the equation for most teens in the US, I'm guessing. :lol: :lol: (Anybody want to start a competitive grinding team? :shock: :lol: Just kidding!! )

I'd suspect a grinding comp would become pretty NC-17, pygmalion. :? :shock: :wink:

Twilight Elena :P

[saludas]

I agree to this only if Soccer is never played on a field as a game. Or Baseball is done simply as excercises on a field, with no games played.

Who would stay in Soccer if all it was was drills and excercises?
My friends and I used to play soccer without keeping score pretty regularly - I think that's closer to what Warren is suggesting than "drills and exercises."

I dunno. Organized sports are usually team and league oriented. I can't imagine a soccer game happening in a school program without scoring...

[pygmalion]

Which leaves ballroom out of the equation for most teens in the US, I'm guessing. :lol: :lol: (Anybody want to start a competitive grinding team? :shock: :lol: Just kidding!! )

I'd suspect a grinding comp would become pretty NC-17, pygmalion. :? :shock: :wink:

Twilight Elena :P

Just kidding. :wink: :lol:

[Another Elizabeth]

I agree to this only if Soccer is never played on a field as a game. Or Baseball is done simply as excercises on a field, with no games played.

Who would stay in Soccer if all it was was drills and excercises?
My friends and I used to play soccer without keeping score pretty regularly - I think that's closer to what Warren is suggesting than "drills and exercises."

I dunno. Organized sports are usually team and league oriented. I can't imagine a soccer game happening in a school program without scoring...
Depends on age, I think. My understanding is that tee-ball is almost never scored, for example (or rather, the kids try to make runs and are congratulated when they "score," but they don't really count how many the team has accumulated).

But who says there has to be a sport metaphor for kids learning to dance, anyway? When I took baton twirling at the local community center, there was no competition involved - we just all learned to twirl our batons together.

[mamboqueen]

We are talking about preteens and kids. The 'problem' is getting the PARENTS to understand why dancing is a good idea for the preteens.

There is a lot of social interaction amongst any group of kids - wheter it is baseball practice or a dance class - bonding and cameraderie is part of the gradeschool experience. The problem is when parents try to impose their values and need for 'success' on these kids and their activities.

Where do you suppose kids should get their values from?

As for the "need for success," I agree. No child should be pushed.

I don't know if you're a parent or not, Saludas. I can only relay my experiences as a parent. Because I enjoy dancing, I have exposed my kids to it. I can't force them to do it or like it. It could be that they're simply at an age where having bodily contact or even non-bodily contact with the opposite sex is "icky". My daughter toys around with jazz or ballet on occasion, until she gets tired of the new clothes she got for the classes.

Having said that, I know nothing of lacrosse or cricket, so it's unlikely that I'd think to expose my kids to them. It really depends a lot on what a parent has been exposed to as well. Parenting is not as easy as I think some people think it is! And for that matter, I really don't condone booking kids into activities from the minute they get home from school each day until they go to bed. I'm TOTALLY for letting them hang out, go to the park, play with their friends, have fun at the beach, essentially downtime. I want them to remember the time I spent with them, not the 3 hours a day in a gym or a dance studio. (Admittedly, part of that is not wanting to spend all of my time being a taxi driver).

[WRhythm]

Fake eyelashes, padded bras. I am simply disgusted. A little girl of six can't possibly be thrown so early into this sexuality twist. Are they going to give them tampons to match, too? It's really freaking me out.

Hmmmm...This is a very tricky issue. My older sister is a professional ballet dancer. When I was a very little girl (there's a 7 year difference between us) she used to put her stage makeup on me, fake eyelashes and all. Since I was so young, it had almost nothing to do with the 'sexualization' of a young child. Developmentally, if you're talking about young children putting on costumes and make up to dance it has very little to do with the way an adult woman would primp and preen before going out to dance in a club...in fact, it can amount to nothing more than an elaborate game of dress up.

That having been said, I'm still not sure that I'd put any of my own hypothetical children in the clothes and cosmetic I wear to compete... :?: [/quote]

[Laura]

I'm a little suprised that no one has pointed out what I'm about to say.

Now, rhinestones and feathers are allowed at every level and it makes me feel sad for those who can't afford dresses like that, but who are good dancers because they get overlooked.

Starting May 1, 2005, younger dancers are no longer allowed to dress this way on every level in USA Dance (formerly USABDA) sanctioned events. In fact, the dress code for Pre-Teen I, Pre-Teen II, and Junior I has recently been made QUITE strict. Female dancers entering Pre-Teen and also Junior I events on all levels are not allowed to wear costumes at all: no rhinestones, no feathers, no heels, no makeup, no false eyelashes, no fake tanning, no jewellry, no glitter in the hair. Males can only wear black or midnight blue pants with white shirts -- no costumes, no shirts open to the belly button, no makeup, etc. You can find the details of the revised dress code on the USA Dance web site at

http://www.usabda.org/dancesport_competitors/rules-policies-bylaws/index.cfm

Of course USA Dance isn't the only organization out there sanctioning competitions, so the costume rules can vary based on who is sanctioning the event, but these restrictive rules for the kids are copied from the International Dance Sport Federation (IDSF) rules.

[saludas]

Where do you suppose kids should get their values from?

As for the "need for success," I agree. No child should be pushed.

I don't know if you're a parent or not, Saludas. I can only relay my experiences as a parent. Because I enjoy dancing, I have exposed my kids to it. I can't force them to do it or like it. It could be that they're simply at an age where having bodily contact or even non-bodily contact with the opposite sex is "icky". My daughter toys around with jazz or ballet on occasion, until she gets tired of the new clothes she got for the classes. .

I am the parent of a child who is now an adult. The constant torment of suburban moms and dads telling me to make sure my son had a 'normal' life drove me more than crazy, since he was actually a very successful (and well paid) child - and now adult - actor. the constant harping to have him 'hang out with the guys' was ludicrous - since he not only played music and really LOVED his work atmosphere (talented people in the arts, exciting and interesting daily activities) but the kids he was being asked to hang out with were, for the most part, your 'regular' kids - videogameplaying, bored, drugiusing (yes, you folks may not accept it but MOST kids from 9 till 18 have tried and/or are doing drugs and alcohol) and involved with the most boring of all activities - 'organized sports'. Where my son was content to play music and draw, write or act, the tedium of three friends sitting for hours staring at a screen 'playing' was stupefying to him and he many times mentioned, comically, how they would all grow up haing never had ANY of the life experiences that my son had - travel, interaction with smart, talented folks, the opportunity to delve deeply into a craft or artform, etc.

until the average suv-drtvin', soccer-momin' parent sees that ALL creative values are to be encouraged and rewarded by praise and encouragement, then the 'let my kid just grow up normal' argument will elude me.

When I grew up, or around the time I was born anyway, there were only 3 tv stations, no tv or specific entertaiment for kids (at least not as varied and intelligent as it is now), no laws to prevent child abuse, smoking was advertised as a mark of sophistication on national television, and sex was considered 'dirty' unless you were married. The 'right' food was cholesteral laden and heart-attack prone... This was the 'normal' of that time. Was it good? I don't think so...

And the parents of that time derided what the day's 'vices were and expressed the same 'concerns' - they wanted the kids to have the same stultifyingly boring lifestyles that the parent had in the 30s and 40s. Were they right?

Parents seem to become polarized and conservative with their kids, conveniently ignoring their upbringing and the realities of the world around them. They forget how they railed against the conformity and mores and morays of the times, however subtly, to create their own identities and viewpoints.

Dance should be a part of a child's life. I really resent the implication that it cannot exist in a child's life to the EXCLUSION of other activities... and frankly, the limited vision of the parents who do not see how the arts can make someone even in a field like insurance become a better and well rounded person causes me to do what you are reading - soapboxing...

Sorry for the rant,and I'll fade back into lurk, but hey, I just needed to say all this!!

[pygmalion]

I'm a little suprised that no one has pointed out what I'm about to say.


I asked the question, Laura, but I wasn't sure of the latest rules and whether they're yet in effect. Then, quite predictably, the thread went off on a hijack for a while. :lol: :lol:

Glad to hear it, btw. Dancesport and tasteless dressing don't have to go hand in hand, at least for the little ones in USA Dance or IDSF events, anymore. Thank goodness. 8)

[DancingMommy]

I guess I am pretty opinionated about this and that is why I started it. I would NEVER allow my child to look like the ametures at that young of an age. I want my kids to be kids, get dirty climbing trees, riding bikes, playing house, etc.

What actually makes 'getting dirty' and 'climbing trees' the 'correct' way a kid should spend his/her time? Why not 'making music', 'dancing', and the arts?

She *means* for them to "be children" for as long as possible, not be forced into grown-up roles before they are ready.

[DancingMommy]

I think that's a good suggestion, Joe. Maybe just immersing young kids in ballroom by example is a better approach than signing them up for lessons too early. Wasn't it DancingMommy who said that her three-year-old can identify different dances by listening to the music? Hmm. And this same kid has been pulling out the ballroom dance instruction videos and dancing along. Now that's cool. (And a heck of a lot better than Barney! :shock: :lol:)

Yes that would be me. :)

And to clarify, BOTH kids have been to our lessons in the past. ;) As infants in carriers and most recently this past month. We had a tag team lesson that night, lol!

[pygmalion]

Sorry for the rant,and I'll fade back into lurk, but hey, I just needed to say all this!!

Rant heard and received, saludas. 8) Uhh. Not sure how I feel about some of it. But I do support every parents' right to make those kinds of decisions for their own kids. Each child is just as different in their needs as each set of parents is in their values. 8) So, at least in my view, there is no one right or wrong answer. The proof is in the pudding, I've always thought.

So, if you can keep your kids busy and active and raise emotionally whole, successful kids, more power to you. On the other hand, if you, as the parent, judge that your child needs down time in order to maintain emotional balance, it's up to you to give it to them.

What gets me about the super parents out there, if you read the literature, is how little tolerance there is for varying views. I bet that's what you received, when your child was growing up. People who thought they knew better than you what was good for your child. Bummer. People can be intolerant jerks. *shrug* That's the way of the world. :?

[mamboqueen]

I'm having trouble copying and pasting with this "spare" computer I'm using, so please exuse me if I skip it as I'm supposed to be helping someone with a book report right now, and need to make this quick.

I think it's great if you want to expose your kids to dance (or anything for that matter), but I don't condemn someone for not doing it. Kids should have broad horizons, but if they don't enjoy or like something, they shouldn't be forced to keep doing it/watching it, whatever.

I don't particularly care how other people choose to raise their kids; everyone makes their choices, and hopefully they're all well intended. The only time I care is when it has a negative impact on MY kids.

And Jenn, you're right, there are a lot of intolerant jerks out there. Another thing you need to clue your kids in on at some point.

Oh, and Saludas, I don't know why, but I thought you were in your 20's or 30's. I must have misinterpreted or misread something you previously wrote. The cats out of the bag now!

[smoozer]

Which leaves ballroom out of the equation for most teens in the US, I'm guessing. :lol: :lol: (Anybody want to start a competitive grinding team? :shock: :lol: Just kidding!! )
LMAO

[Warren J. Dew]

It's absurd to think kids will not see the correlation between playing other 'organized' sports and ballroom dancing. Competition is a way of adding value and a gamelike atmosphere to the lessoning etc.
I remember learning square dancing in grade school, and I don't recall anyone drawing a parallel with organized sports. In fact, for most of the girls and a few of the guys, including me, it was great to have a physical education session that did not consist of organized sports and did not involve a rubber ball. I don't think competition necessarily makes ballroom more interesting - just different.

I do remember that they kept score in my tee ball leagues at that age, but there was little or no emphasis on winning. The coaches and parents were definitely in the camp that "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game".

[pygmalion]

Yep, Warren. I had a similar experience. When we did dance in phys ed -- some square dance, some aerobic-type jazzercise stuff, and some basic ballroom, it was just a cool way to get out of the organized sports I hated. :lol: :lol:

No competition was mentioned or, at least in my case, even thought about. *shrug* I think it's possible to do what you suggest -- introduce the activity, even as a sport, without the competitive element being involved. 8)

[pianoman]

i'm a piano teacher...

sometimes I get young girl students who want to learn how to dance; now admittedly i only get to spend 5 minutes because teaching piano is my main job, but I found that small children have real problems coordinating themselves to the music (like a simple cha-cha-cha basic poses real problems) and this is with kids who are learning music...

i don't know if more practice can solve that problem

but IMO i would say seven/eight years old at least?

[Serendipity]

I have 8 younger brothers (4) and sisters(4), all of my sisters, save the youngest, have been involved in dance and when my two youngest brothers were born i started to get them into it. My brother Jonny has taken a real liking to it. When he was little the only way he would fall asleep is if i waltzed with him while singing. Now he is 6 and he tries occasionally to teach our youngest sister (1yr) to dance with him. He pretty much sticks with waltz and fox trot. I like to put him up on the table and dance with him and he even scolds me if i have poor dance position :). I think most of this is because i was able to spend 1:1 time with him. I think if he had been tossed into a big class by himself he would have quickly lost any desire to learn anything. But as it is he adores me so it was easy to get him interested. Granted i did do a little bit of cheating, i've been dancing with him since he was a week old. Well i'm in college now so i don't get to as often but i do when i go home. I think its hysterical to be corrected by such a little one.

[pygmalion]

i'm a piano teacher...

sometimes I get young girl students who want to learn how to dance; now admittedly i only get to spend 5 minutes because teaching piano is my main job, but I found that small children have real problems coordinating themselves to the music (like a simple cha-cha-cha basic poses real problems) and this is with kids who are learning music...

i don't know if more practice can solve that problem

but IMO i would say seven/eight years old at least?

Yeah. That's what I was getting at with the developmental lower limit comment earlier. Any baby can dance. Turn on the music, and any baby old enough to balance on his/her own two feet will start dancing. But it's basically bouncing up and down in the knees (somewhat rhythmically) while sticking out their butts. Really cute, but not exactly a waltz. Their large motor skills aren't developed enough for waltz til long after that stage.

So, IMO, there is a lower limit beyond which I wouldn't expect dancing out of a child. Not sure what it is, since it varies from child to child, just like the rate at which they develop any other skill. Some kids will be ready to dance sooner than others.

And having the motor skills is a totally separate issue from having a sufficient attention span and cognitive skills. Dancing with a baby or toddler will help them develop dancing skills better (or sooner or more naturally ...) I think.

But, IMHO, in order to make dancing her/his own, a child needs several skills, all of which develop at different rates in different kids. *shrug*

[smoozer]

IMO what they primarily need is their own desire. Then support of family and community

[Twilight_Elena]

I have 8 younger brothers (4) and sisters(4), all of my sisters, save the youngest, have been involved in dance and when my two youngest brothers were born i started to get them into it. My brother Jonny has taken a real liking to it. When he was little the only way he would fall asleep is if i waltzed with him while singing. Now he is 6 and he tries occasionally to teach our youngest sister (1yr) to dance with him. He pretty much sticks with waltz and fox trot. I like to put him up on the table and dance with him and he even scolds me if i have poor dance position :). I think most of this is because i was able to spend 1:1 time with him. I think if he had been tossed into a big class by himself he would have quickly lost any desire to learn anything. But as it is he adores me so it was easy to get him interested. Granted i did do a little bit of cheating, i've been dancing with him since he was a week old. Well i'm in college now so i don't get to as often but i do when i go home. I think its hysterical to be corrected by such a little one.

God, it must be wonderful to grow up like this, dancing... :D *sigh*
I'm so envious of your siblings. Wish I had grown up like that. Wish my brother had. Would certainly be easier to get him hooked. I'm so afraid classes might scare him away...

Twilight Elena

[tiadancer]

Hey- Serendipity- I know the people in that picture you have as your icon! I grew up dancing with the guy and competing against the girl! That is so funny to see it! Sorry, that was kind of off subject...

[DancingMommy]

Who ARE they? I've seen them on the Zantrex-3 weight loss supplement ads and wondered who the heck they were, lol!

[tiadancer]

Ha! Ha! Ha! Yes, they are on that commercial and she has been on ads for other weightloss aids as well, the funny thing is that she has never been one pound overweight in her life. She always looks fantastic and is so dang stylish. Am I allowed to say their names on here? The guy I grew up with and danced on the same team with him all through Jr. High and High School, where we competed together as a team and against each other individually. He was always kind of pudgy and then near the end of high school he started running and lost a ton of weight. The girl trained at a studio in our same area and competed against us as a team and individually. She is such an amazing dancer. In college they became partners, although they had been friends for years. At the last competition I saw them both at they were competing with other partners and both placed in the ameture latin finals.