2005 Club Mayan Salsa Professional Competition

[XtremeSalsa]

1st off, let me say that this years comeptition is the BEST that the Mayan has ever hosted. This year, the BEST of the BEST have decided to come out and compete for the $5,000 purse. Last night (4/23/05) was the Semi-final round, and believe me, it was the night that SEPERATED the BIG DOGS from the RUNTS. 13 couples were on the card last night and only 6 would Advance. Of the 13 couples, ALL of the BIG NAMES that you would ASSOCIATE with LA Style Salsa were present; Alex DaSilva, Cristian Oviedo, Rico Bravo, Liz Lira, Rony Medrano/Dinora, and Abel Pena. The thought of LA style salsa without any of these 7, means that you HAVE NO IDEA about SALSA.

With the exception of 1 couple, all the routines were very entertaining and well suited for the round. The first 2 couples had a bit of trouble with the lack of grip on the stage. Before the competition I was dancing where the couples would perform and it did feel slicker than usual. This problem was the most noticble in Alex DaSilva's routine. He gave his partner, Ruby Karen, a strong snap/open break in which she lost her footing, almost causing her to fall. They were a little unerved, but made a very strong recovery. Their routine was packed with stunts, poses, and acrobatics. Other than Alex DaSilva and his partner, everyone seemed to manage with the floor quite well. Before DaSilva, were Rony Medrano and his partner of 10 year, Dinora.

They had a very high energetic routine, which if memory serves me correct, they used most it from last year's competition. They began strong and finished strong. Dinora did her signature "God Spin", they were on the count, and their stunts were awesome. Liz Lira and her partner, Jose Valencia, followed DaSilva.

What more can be said about her routine other than, it was Vintage Liz Her partner lacks LA Style, due to, what I think is a strong Ball Room background. They did not have many partnering combos, but what they did have a lot of, was Liz's contortion stretches and poses. Her intro, a "Dirty Dancing" theme was a little on corney side, but they quickly switched. Her signature "Tornado" spin was sharp as usual, but with a twist. As she turned, her partner would throw in a turn of his own, adding diffculty. In the end Liz's routine was very sharp and clean. Next came Christian Oviedo and his partner Melissa.

They opened up with a Tango theme, which to me was very surprising due to the fact that it is very unlike Cristian. Nevertheless, it was done well. Also, Cristian like to throw in a stunt at the beginning of almost every routine of his. But last night, he decided to wait and throw it in later. Their transitions between songs were a little on the excessive side, but it worked for them. They had great energy and seem to have the most fun. About the only thing that I could say could be done better is his "Windmill". Although last night, that seemed to be the the most POPULAR move. Done the best by none other than DaSilva. Cristian and Melissa, I would say, had the the cleanest and sharpest routine of all. Up next was Rico Bravo.

This routine was the MOST CREATIVE of all. It was a parody on Alex DaSilva and Johnny Vazquez (If you don't know, FIND OUT!), which, are the two people that inspired him the most. Like Cristian, Rico was full of energy and chemistry. Although his timing wasn't all there, as far as On 1 is concerned, they pulled of a very AMUSING and HUMOROUS routine. I can't wait to see what they come up with for FINALS. Lastly, came Abel Pena and his partner Xiomara.

It took Abel a couple of years to find the right partner, but man,did he EVER? Xiomara, has great stage presence and compliments Abel Xtremely well. Timing was good, and so were their transitions between songs. I especially loved the use of the "Gasolina" drum-roll during their "Tornado". Although not as flashy and stunt filled like the others, it was more concentrated to the dance form, a lot of good combos. All in all a good performance.

Well, there you have it. The 6 couples that qualified to FINALS. As I said before, ALL but 1, of the routines were very much PROFESSIONAL CALIBER. The couple that claims to be professional, was the very same couple that attempted to compete at The Granda, in the AMATURE Category, a few weeks before, and still managed to not make the Semi-final round there. Last night they picked the slowest song imaginable and well, frankly put the crowd to sleep.

After being at both Qualifying and now Semis, I am XTREMELY eager to watch the FINALS. The 6 couples will most definately have to pull out all the STOPS if they want to be #1 and $5,000 richer. But if you ask me, here is MY PREDICTION:

1. Alex DaSilva/Ruby Karen
2. Rico Bravo/Diana
3. Cristian Oviedo/Melissa or Liz Lira/Jose Valencia

[Sagitta]

Interesting.

[tj]

Hey, cool, thanks for the review!

(I flew in to see last year's finals, but will probably miss this year.)

[aragonh]

When is the finals??

I may pass by to check it out.

Also, are they showing the video of prelim/semi winners anywhere?

Also, just a trivia info:

Dont they do an out-of-state prelims also and the winners also perform in the finals?? has any out-of-state ever placed in the Maya Competition?


Thanx for the info.

[TICA]

these are the dates

http://www.salsaweb.com/la/salsa2005.gif

[aragonh]

Nope cant make it. Will be in Chicago that weekend.

Hopefully they post up a video somewhere to see the results. I didnt like last year winners. It was not the people but the routine. I think it was more acrobatic than salsa.

[XtremeSalsa]

Videos should be up shortly after the finals. Or you can go to the club like at 8pm for the lesson and they usually have the videos of the previous rounds playing on the screens.

[Mama Salsera]

That semi finals round was CRAZY! I have to say that Rico & Diana's routine was my favorite, although I think everyone did very well with the exception of that couple Xtreme Salsa was talking about (What were they thinking!?). I think that Alex Da Silva & Ruby Karen will end up with the grand prize. By the way where are all the L.A. Salseros at? Do you guys not have an opinion on the Mayan Competition? It's only the biggest thing in salsa (aside from the LA Salsa Congress) that's going on out here... WAKE UP FOLKS! WHERE YA AT? :D

By the way Steve, GREAT REVIEW! But then again, what don't u do right? :applause:

Mama Salsera Cynthia :kitty:

[squirrel]

I am not in LA and I am not into the Mayan either...

Meaning I do not understand why people think routines have to look like acrobatics...

For Christ's sake, it's dancing, not gymnastics...! It's connecting to the music and the partner not flying and jumping... I prefer the Jack and Jill competitions by far! No choreography, and let's see if you can really lead/follow!

Sorry, no offence for the flying and jumping fans or practicants... just my 2 cents...

[tsb]

my friend kat finished 7th & was actually kinda happy to be done - although a case could be made that she & her partner should have scored higher than alex desilva since his partner slipped amongst the obvious mistakes they made. of course the fact that he teaches at the mayan had nothing to do with it... :roll:

[tsb]

I am not in LA and I am not into the Mayan either...

Meaning I do not understand why people think routines have to look like acrobatics...

For Christ's sake, it's dancing, not gymnastics...! It's connecting to the music and the partner not flying and jumping... I prefer the Jack and Jill competitions by far! No choreography, and let's see if you can really lead/follow!

Sorry, no offence for the flying and jumping fans or practicants... just my 2 cents...

i agree, but the reality is that the average audience is more impressed by gymnastics moves & can't appreciate the nuances of connection, etc.

[squirrel]

And shouldn't the audience be taught?

And who started it, btw??? The audience required acrobatics? I doubt it! Dancers introduced acrobatics! The audience responded... they used acrobatics even more! Now IMO they mostly jump and fly... why should that be mistaken for dancing?

I have many dancers here, in my country, who learn (badly) the moves from the Mayan and use these moves in crowded clubs! And whose fault is it? They think this is the norm there, not the exception!

[tsb]

And shouldn't the audience be taught?

And who started it, btw??? The audience required acrobatics? I doubt it! Dancers introduced acrobatics! The audience responded... they used acrobatics even more! Now IMO they mostly jump and fly... why should that be mistaken for dancing?

I have many dancers here, in my country, who learn (badly) the moves from the Mayan and use these moves in crowded clubs! And whose fault is it? They think this is the norm there, not the exception!

simply put, when you do choreography, people expect to be entertained -not educated; while i categorize myself a social dancer, i have been associated with some performance groups that get paid to provide entertainment. unfortunately, the most 'spectacular' moves that wow crowds don't involve much dancing.

it's not confined to salsa, btw - you see lots of drops, dips & aerials in swing routines as well. the thing is that you don't see as many 'street' swing dancers - they tend to learn from instructors or other mediums that impart the idea that some moves are dangerous and should not be used in social situations whereas there are a larger percentage of street dancers in salsa who may learn primarily in clubs, etc. who don't get exposed to this idea from any sort of "authority".

[squirrel]

Don't get me wrong! I respect the hard work those people had to go through to learn and do properly all those complicated things! The same as I respect gymnasts...

But dance is much more than a couple doing a neck-drop... :(

And unfortunately this is the idea propagated... that dancing is indeed just dips, tricks and aerials... :(

I am desperately trying to tell people dancing is different... this is what I teach my students...

[tsb]

i think you missed my point, but i'm going to go to bed.

[squirrel]

No I haven't actually... I know the public wants spectacular moves... the more difficult the better...

I was just trying to say I am not into it!

[Lucretia]

Last years the best "dancers" where found in the Amateur section of the Mayan Contest. There you found happiness, joy, connection...true dance...and not so much acrobatics.

(Let's hope the videocuts come up soon. I'm so curious....)


/luc

[hopelessly_addicted]

The reason why there's so much acrobatic in competition, could it be because it's so obvious to see? Whereas the feelings/joy you share with your partner when dancing, it's not so obvious to the by-standers... so to stand out, the competitors tend to do outrageous acrobatic moves. I wonder what ways there are to show the true "flava" of salsa to the audience...?

[Lucretia]

But who is judging the contest....do the judge decide who is best by looking at the audience?

No I don't think so. I guess there is a preference for acrobatics also in the mind of the judge. I guess they think that dance can "anybody" learn to do. But acrobatics is so hard that few can do it well keeping the beat.

I would like the managers of Maya an other dancecompetion to have a discussion of where they are "pushing" the dance by rewarding a special style. Especially Maya competition since all movies are found on-line.

They will become trendsetters and they will also show anyone what you not should do if you want to be unique.


/Luc

[Lucretia]

Perhaps this is what happened in the early ages of figure skating (the type where you are two ...don't know the name of it).

Some people did so much acrobatics that they had to open up a special class for acrobatics and one for dance. In the "icedance" class you are not allowed to lift the lady over the head or throw her away.

(If anyone can help me with the proper term in English - please welcome)

/luc

[hopelessly_addicted]

But who is judging the contest....do the judge decide who is best by looking at the audience?

No I don't think so. I guess there is a preference for acrobatics also in the mind of the judge. I guess they think that dance can "anybody" learn to do. But acrobatics is so hard that few can do it well keeping the beat. [/Luc

Hi Lucretia,

I had the judges also in mind when I said the "audience" - sorry, should have made that clearer.... I was just wondering out loud what ways there are to judge the real flavour of salsa...

[SDsalsaguy]

(If anyone can help me with the proper term in English - please welcome)
I think the two division names are ice dance vs. pairs skating.

[SDsalsaguy]

Last years the best "dancers" where found in the Amateur section of the Mayan Contest. There you found happiness, joy, connection...true dance...and not so much acrobatics.
I agree 100%!!!

If the contest was for "best show done with salsa music in a supporting role" than the pros clearly had the best, but for "best salsa dancing" it had to go to the ams!

[XtremeSalsa]

I am glad to see the my post has created so much converstaion (unlike the other dance forums). Well, for those of you that are unclear as to how the judging works @ the Mayan... Qualifying is done by crowd. The Semis & Finals are supposedly judged by a panel. The panel is comprised or 3 instructors and 3 radomnly chosen people from the club. Couples are judged on Creativity, timing, crowd response, and some other categories. Each category is given a score of 1-5 (1 being the lowest; 5 the highest). U can see where the problem lies. How can those 3 chosen from the club know how to judge properly if they know nothing about the dance form? That is why, a lot of the couples will throw in Actobatics. To please the majority, whom do not know how to dance and are DRUNK NEway. I meet a lot of people who talk about competing at the Mayan, and I always ask them if they have at least 2 stunts. If their response is no, then I tell them the truth. They DON'T STAND a CHANCE! Even in the Amature category. A lot of the amatures that compete at the Mayan R in dance groups or cheating ASS dance instructors that stop teaching just B4 the comeptition so they have a greater chance @ winning (like a certain couple that is competing this year). Becuase they come from dance team/groups they have been exposed to a lot of stuns and acrobatics. But those that are true amatures haven't had the opportunity to try those out, therefore they don't use them in their routines. This is XACTLY why the MAYAN needs to add a "Semi-Professional" Category, just like at the Granada. This way everyone would have a chance to win in their own rightly placed categories. That is why I passed on the Mayan this year. Although I can do a lot of the acrobatics that R being done, I haven't had a chance to practice them with my current partner. But, I am not, by NE means an AMATURE. I fall somewhere in between when it comes to competing. So, when I heard that the Granada was holding their competition and it included a "Semi-Pro" category, I was all for it. Not only that, the crowd at the Granada is about 90% Salsa Hard Core Dancers, unlike at the Mayan, where it may be about 25%. The crowd @ the Granada isn't really interested in how many times you can ALOMST KILL ur PARTNER without actually doing so. They're more interested in how well you dance and how well you execute your combos. Now don't get me wrong, next year for sure I am competing at the Mayan. I WILL B ready to hang with the BIG DAWGS! Oh, BTW, for those of you in the LA area, the Semi-Final round for the Granada is this Friday (4-29-05). Please come out, watch, enjoy, and CHEER for my partner and I (Woo-Hoo!!!). Look out for the couple wearing the Army Fatigues.

P.S. Please cast your vote for who U think will win this year. It would B interesting to C the results.

[aragonh]

I would like to cast my vote, but since I havent seen any, it wouldnt be fair :wink:

As soon as the videos are out, I'll vote!!

I would have gone out to support you, but I will be in vegas this weekend. But if you can, post a video up of it.

[XtremeSalsa]

I would like to cast my vote, but since I havent seen any, it wouldnt be fair :wink:

As soon as the videos are out, I'll vote!!

I would have gone out to support you, but I will be in vegas this weekend. But if you can, post a video up of it.

I shall try to do that this weekend.

[africana]

Last years the best "dancers" where found in the Amateur section of the Mayan Contest. There you found happiness, joy, connection...true dance...and not so much acrobatics.
/lucyeah I thought the same thing :)
I like watching the mayan videos because they inspired me to learn the "fancy stuff" and get better, so probably whether or not they perform acrobatics I will still enjoy watching them (esp. since a couple of my good friends are one of the well-known acrobats ;) ) Plus think of all those people who dare say salsa is not cool, just show em one of them videos :lol:
But heaven help any guy who dares put a neck drop on me :twisted: I don't even tolerate dips :lol:

[TemptressToo]

I liked some of last year's videos. Especially the winners of the professional division. They were so clean.

Any news updates on how this year comp is going?

[alemana]

it is spelled AMATEUR.

thank you.

[tsb]

fyi, for the west coast salsa congress coming up next month, albert (torres) is specifying a 'cabaret' competition division.

"(Any Move In Which Any Part Of Either Dancer Is Above The Shoulders Of Their Partner - Includes Lifts, Cartwheels Or Any Similar Lift Or Tricks)"

bravo!

[Twilight_Elena]

It pains me to see advanced dancers miss the point of salsa. I've said this before, but salsa in about the connection with your partner and having fun. I don't think I would have fun doing cartwheels instead of dancing. If I'm having fun doing acrobatics, I'd do gymnastics, not dancing.
It would be interesting to create a dancing-acrobatics division, though. it could help seperate dancing from stunts.

Twilight Elena

[XtremeSalsa]

It pains me to see advanced dancers miss the point of salsa. I've said this before, but salsa in about the connection with your partner and having fun. I don't think I would have fun doing cartwheels instead of dancing. If I'm having fun doing acrobatics, I'd do gymnastics, not dancing.
It would be interesting to create a dancing-acrobatics division, though. it could help seperate dancing from stunts.

Twilight Elena

That's XACTLY Y Albert Torres has created a new division called Caberet Style Salsa. Wonder how many would actually enter that division or if they would simply stick to partner combos?

[randomMysh]

I'm not entirely clear on what SemiPro means, exactly. Then again, I know nothing about salsa, so I have a good excuse. What you're describing sounds like the Rising Star category in Ballroom--newly pro, basically. Or pro for a while, but not in the same category as the top people. In any case, I think a creation of an "inbetween" category like that would be good, both for the amateurs and for the pros.

I was also kinda shocked by the judging process at the Mayan competition. Why would you have someone random judge the pros?? Just how does that promote good dancing? I simply do not understand the reasoning behind the system, so if anyone cares to enlighten me, I'd really appreciate it.

[SDsalsaguy]

Just how does that promote good dancing?
It doesn't.

[XtremeSalsa]

Just how does that promote good dancing?
It doesn't.

Your guess is as good as mine. :roll:

[randomMysh]

Humph.
Has anyone tried approaching the comp organizers and asking them for the reasons for that particular judging format? Inquiring minds want to know. :D

[Vin]

Actually I am going to take the other route. I don't think it is such a bad thing to have non-pro's as judges in dance contests. People who are involved in the dance look for certain things when judging. I imagine people who aren't professionals are more likely to be impressed by overall charisma of the competitors.
Salsa is living, breathing, and most importantly growing. By having amateur judges I think it forces the competitors to play to the crowd more than if they were dancing for other pro's to judge them. What I'm trying to say is that having amateur judges it forces the competitors to up the "wow" factor in their routines.
I agree that the detriment is that the most technically proficient dancers may not always win the competition. Since when is technical proficiency the most important thing? In the long run I think this format is good for salsa.

[TemptressToo]

Not to mention, I feel that most of these dancers are at the peak of their craft. Why not mix it up a bit? I know if I did the same old, same old all of the time...it wouldn't be challenging any more. I think part of the fun is dressing up routines to challenge and interest the participants. Most people KNOW that the participants KNOW what they are doing when it comes to all the "basics." It they can exhibit a bit of this knowledge, choreograph a routine that is interesting for them and the audience, and practice that routine until it is flawless....well then more power to them.

People ARE inspired to try dancing by watching interesting performances. I've watched pros compete in regular ballroom...does that inspire me to learn more. YES. Does it make me want to flip all over? Not necessarily. I'm just happy developing my technique and reaching that point where it is fun and people notice how much fun I have.

[IsaacAltman]

Salsa at the Mayan contest has basically turned into a Showdance event. Themed choreography is basically that. They would probably be better off identifying it as the Mayan Salsa Showdance Championships. In as far as having the audience participate in judging, I just think you run into a slew of problems. Of course this contest is not really identified as a sporting competition so I guess audience participation can be utilized but again it can prejudice the outcome to some degree.

Salsa in the form you see it evolving at the Mayan, with much acrobatics, etc. is a direct result in trying to impress an audience. It is also a result of the dancers searching for something new (not necessarily better). Tricks as such are not Salsa dancing, they are tricks. Many if not most are borrowed from other dance styles which borrowed them from other dance styles. From there, they are modified to be able to create a uniqueness. Ballroom does it, Swing does it, Hustle does it, etc. If history teaches us anything about dance, it tells us that things will continue to evolve to some extremes until eventually it will go back to its roots. It is just a matter of time. The old saying of too many spices in the soup ruins the flavor of the soup. Too many acrobatics and tricks will eventually ruin Salsa. I guess you just need to let it play out, but I guarantee it will come back to its roots and the Salsa dancing will become the best we ever have seen it.

[hopelessly_addicted]

Salsa in the form you see it evolving at the Mayan, with much acrobatics, etc. is a direct result in trying to impress an audience. It is also a result of the dancers searching for something new (not necessarily better). Tricks as such are not Salsa dancing, they are tricks. Many if not most are borrowed from other dance styles which borrowed them from other dance styles. From there, they are modified to be able to create a uniqueness. Ballroom does it, Swing does it, Hustle does it, etc. If history teaches us anything about dance, it tells us that things will continue to evolve to some extremes until eventually it will go back to its roots. It is just a matter of time. The old saying of too many spices in the soup ruins the flavor of the soup. Too many acrobatics and tricks will eventually ruin Salsa. I guess you just need to let it play out, but I guarantee it will come back to its roots and the Salsa dancing will become the best we ever have seen it.

wow, well said IsaacAltman! :)

[TemptressToo]

So is this competition over yet? I see they have revised their website prepping it to add the videos. They also added the judge's bios.

[aragonh]

Oh, BTW, for those of you in the LA area, the Semi-Final round for the Granada is this Friday (4-29-05). Please come out, watch, enjoy, and CHEER for my partner and I (Woo-Hoo!!!). Look out for the couple wearing the Army Fatigues.


How did u do Steve in the competition??

[salsalawyer]

ok the professional final rounds are coming!!


Friday, May 13 Out of State International prelims, top three advance!

Saturday, May 14, the Finals~~

[azzey]

Some of the Mayan 2005 video clips are up!

http://www.clubmayan.com

See 'Professional' section for the semi-finals.

The amateur semi-finals and finals clips have been uploaded onto the site but have not yet been linked to the website front-end.

Some of the amateurs this year look like pro's. Wow!

[aragonh]

Ok I saw the performances.

Right off the bat, Alex DeSilva and Rico Bravo should not win this. Both of them cannot stay on beat. It is very obvious with Alex. Sometimes hes stepping on 2.5, other times on 5. Bravo is not that bad but he still switches from 1, 3 & 5.

I love Rony & Dinora, but I think theres is a little bit sloppy. If they clean up some stuff. They defintely could win.

Of Liz Lira, there seem to be too much of an individual performance. The whole thing didnt flow well. There were too many "stops", not enough salsa. As one of Cachaos songs go "Quiero Mas Salsa que Pescao"

So that leaves it off between Abel & Christian. Both of their performances were good. I got more into Christian's performance. Him and his partner were both smiling and having a good time. So I would give it to them.

[azzey]

Ok I saw the performances.

Right off the bat, Alex DeSilva and Rico Bravo should not win this. Both of them cannot stay on beat. It is very obvious with Alex. Sometimes hes stepping on 2.5, other times on 5. Bravo is not that bad but he still switches from 1, 3 & 5.

I love Rony & Dinora, but I think theres is a little bit sloppy. If they clean up some stuff. They defintely could win.

Of Liz Lira, there seem to be too much of an individual performance. The whole thing didnt flow well. There were too many "stops", not enough salsa. As one of Cachaos songs go "Quiero Mas Salsa que Pescao"

So that leaves it off between Abel & Christian. Both of their performances were good. I got more into Christian's performance. Him and his partner were both smiling and having a good time. So I would give it to them.

I thought Alex's various timings used throughout the performance (on 1 in the first section, on 3 in the second mostly, shines are on 3,5,7, last section on5 I think) expressed the music quite well and added variation. Is there anything in the rules or judging criteria that marks you down for timing?

As for Rico it didn't look too bad, except for the tricks sections.

[TICA]

I'm saying

Abel first

Liz second

Christian or Roney third

[and their partners of course]

[TemptressToo]

My analysis as a dancer (and not specific to salsa--although I do dance salsa).

Dinora & Rony--the routine was okay, nothing fabulous and the costuming was distracting.

DaSilva & Karen--except for the slip (which isn't entirely the dancers fault), the rest of the routine was failry clean and original. I think I liked it the best despite the slip.

Lira & Valencia--very nice routine and that never-ending spin was amazing. I got dizzy just watching.

Cueva & Ovieda--loved the originality of the tango open...I liked the rest of the routine. My only complaint was the sloppiness of the salsera's arm styling. She did a lot of flinging about.

Sanchez & Bravo--one Brownie point for being different, but subtract two Brownie points for corniness. I think they needed to do more dancing a less acting. And the "drumming on her butt" thing was stupid looking.

Romano & Pena--I really liked the costuming and styling. Even the "Gasoline" clip was well done and on cue. My complaints include a sloppy second lunge (after the aeriel supported cartwheel) and a few balance checks by the lead at several crucial hold poses.

That all said, I would have voted for DaSilva & Karen as first had they not had that slip. Second would have went to Romano & Pena. And third either Lira & Valencia or Cueva & Oviedo.

[aragonh]

I thought Alex's various timings used throughout the performance (on 1 in the first section, on 3 in the second mostly, shines are on 3,5,7, last section on5 I think) expressed the music quite well and added variation. Is there anything in the rules or judging criteria that marks you down for timing?

As for Rico it didn't look too bad, except for the tricks sections.

Alex is most obvious because there is no consistency. One of his first cross-bodies is on 2.5. I saw that right away and then I began to look closely at his footwork. I didnt count shines since that is the time to "descargar" and to be stylish, but then you should be able to step back on time. Alex lacked that consistency.

There is a set of criteria for the judgin. However, each judge focuses on different aspects. If I were a judge, i would focus on timing. For that reason, I would score them low.

[Phil Owl]

I'm saying

Abel first

Liz second

Christian or Roney third

[and their partners of course]

Same here!!!! Amazing!!

Abel & Sulmara: I LOVED these guys!!! Sulmara is incredibly sexy without being trashy! I loved her arm styling, her spins (stationary and travelling tornado) had great upright form without being stiff. The ever-difficult pot-stir was so fun to watch and the subsequent continuous counterclockwise spins were spectacular and sexy too, I liked the stops they did, very crisp (to my untrained eyes anyway). I also loved that one thing where Abel changed hands every couple of revolutions while he was spinning Sulmara. Overall, they looked like they were really enjoying themselves! Abel was very passionate and a good strong lead by all appearances. Good music too!


Liz and Jose': THese two were great too, gotta agree with what I call "The Counterclockwise Spin of Death", just amazed how she kept that going without getting hopelessly dizzy, enjoyed the rest of it as well, the salsaa version of "Caravan" get's bonus points from me (not sure about the "Dirty Dancing Theme" though)

These two couples, were actually DANCING as opposed to just doing acrobatics which I loved


Rico and Diana's s whole thing just didn't fly for me (especially with the ridiculous a%& drumming, that was totally crass and trashy!).

One thing that bugs me anout some of these comps (beside the predominance of acrobatics over actual dancing sometimes) is the use of props effeects and acting. Puhlllleeeezee! This AIN'T the freakin' Matirix guys, that got beaten to death, GIVE IT A REST!!!

But gripe aside, I really enjoyed watching this and the amateur divisions a ton!

[Phil Owl]

. Lastly, came Abel Pena and his partner Xiomara.

It took Abel a couple of years to find the right partner, but man,did he EVER? Xiomara, has great stage presence and compliments Abel Xtremely well. Timing was good, and so were their transitions between songs. I especially loved the use of the "Gasolina" drum-roll during their "Tornado". Although not as flashy and stunt filled like the others, it was more concentrated to the dance form, a lot of good combos. All in all a good performance.

All told, my absoilute favorite of the bunch!!! :D

I hope a DVD will be available of this competition, I'd buy it just for Abel and Sulmara alone!

[alemana]

i watched the videos. other than the (boring) tricks and acrobatics, i didn't see any salsa skills/sabor greater than one encounters by amateur club dancers here in new york. virtually no flavor whatsoever.

[squirrel]

Alemana, I wouldn't have put it so harshly, but this is what I think myself... even though I appreciate the skill level of the participants, I don't see the dancing... :)

[Lucretia]

Alemana, I wouldn't have put it so harshly, but this is what I think myself... even though I appreciate the skill level of the participants, I don't see the dancing... :)

I see a strange connection...the lower rank the more of salsadancing and less acrobatics....

And this was the amateurs!!! This connection between salsa/acrobatics have mostly been seen at the proffessional competition.

I did read the list presenting the judges. And they seem all to have had a dancing carriere. Noone is just an ordinary more or less drunk person who happens to be at the club knowing nothing about dance. Someone said that 50% of the jury is picked from the audience ...that might be true but they all seems to know a great deal of dance this year. And still the result is the same...

/luc

[azzey]

Alemana, I wouldn't have put it so harshly, but this is what I think myself... even though I appreciate the skill level of the participants, I don't see the dancing... :)

I see a strange connection...the lower rank the more of salsadancing and less acrobatics....

And this was the amateurs!!! This connection between salsa/acrobatics have mostly been seen at the proffessional competition.

I did read the list presenting the judges. And they seem all to have had a dancing carriere. Noone is just an ordinary more or less drunk person who happens to be at the club knowing nothing about dance. Someone said that 50% of the jury is picked from the audience ...that might be true but they all seems to know a great deal of dance this year. And still the result is the same...

/luc

The amateurs are putting in more acrobatics every year, it's likely to go the way of the pro's. Some of the amateurs (e.g. the winners) are looking more and more like pro's every year.

I believe the rules state that only ONE judge is randomly picked from the audience. The rest are well known professionals in the LA scene.

[azzey]

Alemana, I wouldn't have put it so harshly, but this is what I think myself... even though I appreciate the skill level of the participants, I don't see the dancing... :)

Always a problem with competitions. Since emphasis is on performance and not fun it can come out looking like one technical piece after another.
Unless the couple has real charisma together and/or they are a couple and in love. Even then they're usually concentrating on not making a mistake so something gets lost in the process.

Also, the Mayan competitions unwritten judging criteria might have something to do with the predominance of tricks and lack of real dancing.

[squirrel]

:) Azzey, you are right! But isn't this a characteristic of the LA style? Is it the same in all competitions worldwide?

[azzey]

:) Azzey, you are right! But isn't this a characteristic of the LA style? Is it the same in all competitions worldwide?

You mean tricks, lack of real dancing or lack of passion? :wink: :lol:
No I don't believe so. I have quite a few NY style competition video clips and the competitors somewhat suffer from the same issues, compared to social dancing. In fact in competitions its sometimes harder to distinguish between NY and LA dancing unless you look at the subtleties. i.e. they both use tricks and often look more polished.

Interestingly, the LA guys have been dancing On 2 for a while now and it's beginning to show through in the Mayan comeption too. So in future that may no longer be such a distinction either.

See http://www.imambo.tv There's a clip of Jareau and partner in the semi-finals and finals of a NY style competition which I quite like.

[squirrel]

Hmmm... so I have no chance to compete! :(

[pr]

I agree with you people! I also think it is way too much show and to little dancing in the professional division. Where is the connection beetween the partners? IMO it looks more like a tug-of-war game... Instead I prefer when partners stay close and when there is a flow in their movements.

[azzey]

Hmmm... so I have no chance to compete! :(

Of course you do. BTW, I was only answering your first question above.

As to whether competitions worldwide are all the same I would say that depends a lot on the local scene, style, who's judging and how (criteria) and the competitiveness of the dancers.

One thing about tricks is its often easier to learn and practice a few new tricks than it is to improve the whole level of your dancing.

Were you thinking of travelling to LA to enter the Mayan competition at some point? :wink:

[squirrel]

No, not the Mayan... I am almost 29 years old... and not a gymnast!

But I was wondering... :)

[alemana]

i didn't mean to compare pro vs amateur or nyc vs la. i just meant that my clubfolk have better connection, better body movement, better moves, etc. than what i saw on the videos.

[aragonh]

Interestingly, the LA guys have been dancing On 2 for a while now and it's beginning to show through in the Mayan comeption too.


wHo?? I didnt see no1 dance on2.

As mentioned before, the Mayan competition is more about showing off than dancing. There are other LA contests that are more "dance-based". The one I,m thinking of is the Sportman's Lodge .

[Big10]

I thought Alex's various timings used throughout the performance (on 1 in the first section, on 3 in the second mostly, shines are on 3,5,7, last section on5 I think) expressed the music quite well and added variation. Is there anything in the rules or judging criteria that marks you down for timing?

As for Rico it didn't look too bad, except for the tricks sections.

Alex is most obvious because there is no consistency. One of his first cross-bodies is on 2.5. I saw that right away and then I began to look closely at his footwork. I didnt count shines since that is the time to "descargar" and to be stylish, but then you should be able to step back on time. Alex lacked that consistency.

There is a set of criteria for the judgin. However, each judge focuses on different aspects. If I were a judge, i would focus on timing. For that reason, I would score them low.
Unless I skimmed too quickly, I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread yet that Alex Da Silva won't be in the 2005 finals because his partner suffered an injury during practice last weekend.

Anyway, I remember having a discussion on another board about ADS's timing "issues." My view is this -- if you watch his performances carefully, you will notice that he hits the major accents in the music VERY well. To do that so consistently requires a great sense of timing. So, I think ADS doesn't feel bound to the standard 8-count as a stylistic choice, not because he can't. Plus, in a contest situation, the judges watch everything just one time through (not viewing it over and over like we do on the Internet), so his tricks and hits on the accents are more likely to make a big impression than his tendency to be a half-beat off here and there.

[azzey]

I thought Alex's various timings used throughout the performance (on 1 in the first section, on 3 in the second mostly, shines are on 3,5,7, last section on5 I think) expressed the music quite well and added variation. Is there anything in the rules or judging criteria that marks you down for timing?

As for Rico it didn't look too bad, except for the tricks sections.

Alex is most obvious because there is no consistency. One of his first cross-bodies is on 2.5. I saw that right away and then I began to look closely at his footwork. I didnt count shines since that is the time to "descargar" and to be stylish, but then you should be able to step back on time. Alex lacked that consistency.

There is a set of criteria for the judgin. However, each judge focuses on different aspects. If I were a judge, i would focus on timing. For that reason, I would score them low.
Unless I skimmed too quickly, I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread yet that Alex Da Silva won't be in the 2005 finals because his partner suffered an injury during practice last weekend.

Anyway, I remember having a discussion on another board about ADS's timing "issues." My view is this -- if you watch his performances carefully, you will notice that he hits the major accents in the music VERY well. To do that so consistently requires a great sense of timing. So, I think ADS doesn't feel bound to the standard 8-count as a stylistic choice, not because he can't. Plus, in a contest situation, the judges watch everything just one time through (not viewing it over and over like we do on the Internet), so his tricks and hits on the accents are more likely to make a big impression than his tendency to be a half-beat off here and there.

That is a real shame, as in my view he would have most likely won the competition. Alex's performance in the finals is always more themed with even slicker dancing and new moves done to the music. I've seen him dance socially and he has a habit of playing with the timing to fit the music when dancing with well known partners. I agree with what you said as basically I said something similar earlier in the posts.

[TICA]

The Sportsmans Lodge doesnt even exist anymore for Salsa. The competition organized by Albert Torres is held at The Granada in Alhambra.

People will always have a problem with competitions no matter which one it is. The Mayan gets criticized over and over and yet we're all there, either watching them live or seeing the clips online. What other venue provides clips online other than The Mayan? talk about exposure for dancers.

Albert gets praised for the attention to 'the beat' and yet that is not enough to make him escape from people's complaints. Recently he heard it from everybody for allowing the crowd to decide who won over the semi finals.

Alex da Silva has a miriad of critics, and yet the man is still going on. Now that he is out of the competition, I guess people won't be able to say that The Mayan is fixed. Too bad he is gone because he alone brings to the competition an excitement that will no longer be there. The man is good, y 'la critica lo mantiene'.

Anyhow, I dont remember what my original purpose was in posting this...now I'm all over the place.

Perhaps that I get annoyed to see people bagging on LA, The Mayan, the 'acrobatics' and so on. What is so wrong with taking things at face value, and appreciating them for what they are. The my-dancing-is-better-than-your-dancing attitude is unnecessary. "My buddies in my club dance so much better than all of them competitors" :roll: honestly!.

I wonder if people who criticize the tricks so much would still do so if they became GOOD at them themselves.

And before someone says that I must be one of those doing cartwheels, let me tell you, no... not any longer. Six or seven years ago, when LA really danced like the stereotype that people from outside of LA wrongly still have of our town, I did. And it was fun then. And now that it is over, it is still fun to see those who incorporate it into their routines.

[hasfoo]

Anybody know who won this?? Please post any commentary on it as well. thanks

[Big10]

WOW! Apparently Alex's partner (Ruby) recovered quickly from her injuries, and they finished FIRST! Originally I thought Alex had the best chance to win based on his performance/competition experience -- but I was under the impression that his partner's injuries (from the week before) were too serious to compete. Liz Lira and her partner finished second, despite some dire personal issues she was dealing with, too.

Here is a link to some of the feedback from a Salsa board based in Los Angeles, including people who know the competitors and saw the finals:

http://www.salserosweb.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=13678&sid=c1ffc73b7c759dbba1792edf867c8d94

[alemana]

i *did* take the comp at face value. i *did* appreciate it for what it was. and my response, knowing nothing about the competitive salsa world, about LA style, about the history of the Mayan or the names of any of the dancers in the pro division (trust me, this is all news to me) was: snore. it didn't engage me as a spectator, period.

i frequently see dance events where i don't know the style or don't particularly like it (country western comes to mind) but that doesn't mean i am not able to see and appreciate ability, talent, etc.

just because i didn't like it doesn't mean i didn't 'take it at face value.' quite the opposite. i took it exclusively at face value and found it lacking.

it's fine with me if hundreds of people go watch it, and fine with me if i'm a hater for not feeling it. it's all a matter of preference.

[aragonh]

Alex da Silva has a miriad of critics, and yet the man is still going on. Now that he is out of the competition, I guess people won't be able to say that The Mayan is fixed. Too bad he is gone because he alone brings to the competition an excitement that will no longer be there. The man is good, y 'la critica lo mantiene'.



I guess this was directed at me, and I feel obliged to respond.

No, Im not an Alex hater. I've taken some of his workshops and he has some cool moves for performance/exhibition. U have to give the guy props for being a performer.

However, I also give props to people who can dance and feel the music. So when I saw Alex (as well as Rico) step inconsistently w/ the music, i thought "what is this?? they are not dancing to the beat!!"

From the link that Big10 Provided (Thanx Big10 !!), it seems that Alex dealt directly with this issue and stayed with consistent timing. If he did his performance AND still stayed connected with the music, then that is awesome.

But If he cant stay with the music, then to me, he is just doing a performance with background salsa music.

[Lucretia]

They have started to publish the professional semifinal now. A few links does not work yet...

I am a bit surprised ....(and ashamed :oops: ) ...some of the professional succéd in combining both acrobatics and salsa dance. They keep staying on the beat although the swing the lady in the most spectacular ways. I think they have improved a lot since last year :shock: :D

/luc

[Don Silver]

I'm not entirely clear on what SemiPro means, exactly. Then again, I know nothing about salsa, so I have a good excuse. What you're describing sounds like the Rising Star category in Ballroom--newly pro, basically. Or pro for a while, but not in the same category as the top people. In any case, I think a creation of an "inbetween" category like that would be good, both for the amateurs and for the pros.



I competed in the Amateur division at the Granada and read the rules: Semi-pro is if you have done any teaching, made any money dancing or have been on a dance team. It allows you to make money but it can’t be your primary income. If you’ve come in first place in any amateur contest, you are also considered semi-pro, even if you didn’t make money in that contest.

On the other hand, the amateur rules said the following: not a teacher, haven’t made ANY money from dancing, won any other amateur contest or been part of a dance team.

The semi-pro division makes it possible to make a little money dancing. This includes occasionally teaching or winning some money for second/third place in other competitions without automatically having to compete against people who dance and/or teach dance for a living.

I haven't seen the rules for the Mayan so I don't know how they break down amateur vs. pro. From what I can tell unless your primary income is from dancing, you are considered an amateur. Hopefully someone knows the exact rules for the Mayan breakdown.

[leaf]

All these talks abt the competition and not able to watch it is driving me nuts! :lol: Thank goodness mayan has finally put up the semi-finals videos online... whooooooooooooa! I've enjoyed watching every single one of it.

Agree that there r too much acrobatic moves, but hey if that is the way to win a competition... I'll attempt to do it (as much as I hate it) too!

Personally, I like Abel & Sulmara's routine the most among all.

Will the Granada competition be viewable online as well?

[TICA]

nope!

[David]

Just been watching the video clips that have been posted so far... pro semi-finals and amateur finals.

Have to say that, in my book at least, the winning amateur couple's routine kicked the ... out of the suposed pro's routines. Very nice, and it could actually pass as dance rather than "sals-nastics".

[tsb]

The Sportsmans Lodge doesnt even exist anymore for Salsa. The competition organized by Albert Torres is held at The Granada in Alhambra.

People will always have a problem with competitions no matter which one it is. The Mayan gets criticized over and over and yet we're all there, either watching them live or seeing the clips online. What other venue provides clips online other than The Mayan? talk about exposure for dancers.

Albert gets praised for the attention to 'the beat' and yet that is not enough to make him escape from people's complaints. Recently he heard it from everybody for allowing the crowd to decide who won over the semi finals.

Alex da Silva has a miriad of critics, and yet the man is still going on. Now that he is out of the competition, I guess people won't be able to say that The Mayan is fixed. Too bad he is gone because he alone brings to the competition an excitement that will no longer be there. The man is good, y 'la critica lo mantiene'.

Anyhow, I dont remember what my original purpose was in posting this...now I'm all over the place.

Perhaps that I get annoyed to see people bagging on LA, The Mayan, the 'acrobatics' and so on. What is so wrong with taking things at face value, and appreciating them for what they are. The my-dancing-is-better-than-your-dancing attitude is unnecessary. "My buddies in my club dance so much better than all of them competitors" :roll: honestly!.

I wonder if people who criticize the tricks so much would still do so if they became GOOD at them themselves.


this dancer does. these moves have no place in a pure social dance setting - the only purpose is to show off. i think a valid question to ask to evaluate these moves would be: would you still do these trick moves if no one was watching, and if so, why?


And before someone says that I must be one of those doing cartwheels, let me tell you, no... not any longer. Six or seven years ago, when LA really danced like the stereotype that people from outside of LA wrongly still have of our town, I did. And it was fun then. And now that it is over, it is still fun to see those who incorporate it into their routines.

[TemptressToo]

Well, the finals are finally up for the Pros. I thoroughly enjoyed it all. :) Also, I've never seen Danny Bravo dance before...that was a treat. He's competing Internationals...the semis are up for those.

[Paou]

I wonder if people who criticize the tricks so much would still do so if they became GOOD at them themselves.


this dancer does. these moves have no place in a pure social dance setting

Yes, that's true... but they do have a place in performance dance setting. And that's the point... that's what the mayan is all about. Performance Dance.

If anyone doesn't like that I would suggest they don't watch... it's just like anything else in this world... I'm not too keen on sushi, but instead of arguing how stupid sushi is, and trying to stop the world from eating it, I let people that want to enjoy it, enjoy it without having to suffer my oppinion. It's their choice!

Social dancing is one thing, performance dancing is another. Both have their place in this world.

Oh, and lastly, yes... I do moves like these when no one is watching... so I can practice for when someone IS.

[tsb]

[quote=TICA]
I wonder if people who criticize the tricks so much would still do so if they became GOOD at them themselves.


this dancer does. these moves have no place in a pure social dance setting

Yes, that's true... but they do have a place in performance dance setting. And that's the point... that's what the mayan is all about. Performance Dance.


the mayan is basically a meat market IMO.

the problem is that many people watching leave with an impression that such dips & aerials are a part of social dancing and try them on unsuspecting partners without sufficient training. if they made an effort to emphasize that point i would have much less issue with it. i have a friend who had 4 ribs broken as a consequence.

[quote]
If anyone doesn't like that I would suggest they don't watch... it's just like anything else in this world... I'm not too keen on sushi, but instead of arguing how stupid sushi is, and trying to stop the world from eating it, I let people that want to enjoy it, enjoy it without having to suffer my oppinion. It's their choice!

Social dancing is one thing, performance dancing is another. Both have their place in this world.

Oh, and lastly, yes... I do moves like these when no one is watching... so I can practice for when someone IS.

you made my point - your primary motive is that other people will see you and somehow be impressed. my take is that social dancers generally think otherwise when they see someone showboating and/or doing things that endanger other dancers on the floor.

i was at a latin jazz concert in old town pasadena last friday. there was a dance floor roughly 12' x 12'. i was dancing a cha cha with my regular partner while this one guy who thought he was hot stuff keep usurping my slot and taking huge steps & pummeling me & my partner with his partner. this kind of experience leaves me thinking that people who are performance oriented and generally more concerned about how they look generally care a lot less about the safety and comfort of their fellow dancers nor they consider the expectations of the dancers around them. if one could breed this kind of attitude out of the typical performance dancer i'd have little issue with them.