Developing Good Dance Posture

[pygmalion]

I've always had pretty good posture -- years of having to sit or stand perfectly upright while playing violin, I guess. :D But lately while I'm dancing, I occasionally catch sight of my reflection and see something different. I see a dancer! :D And I think the difference is posture. I now have a dancer's posture (at least, most of the time. :D )

Questions: What is good posture for dance, how do you develop the habit? And how is it different from the "stand up straight" good posture that our moms told us about when we were little? And why is it important?

[Vince A]

An excerpt:

"*Maintain good dance position, good posture and... remain grounded."
As for the bent forward posture used when dancing the Lindy Hop, Frankie Manning is on the video from "Can't Top the Lindy Hop" specifically describing how he made a conscious decision to bend over, to change the look and line of the dance, to set him apart from other dancers. Note that he was still thinking like a dancer and performer, aware of the lines of the body. It wasn't totally arbitrary; he knew the aesthetics. Arthur Murray and the ballroom crew disagree with that aesthetic, and impose a straight back. That's a choice... their preference. On the posture "controversy", Frankie Manning says "Straight can be okay. Stiff is wrong. I don't teach people to bend over or straighten up--I teach people to relax. I tell them to, anyway.... You don't stoop over 'cause you're old, you straighten up 'cause you're old. I can't get over there like I used to!"

[DanceMentor]

If you have a desk job or spend long periods of time reading the Dance Forums, make sure you maintain a good posture and design your desk so that this is possible. Your habits in your daily like can have a major influence on your dance posture.

[SwinginBoo]

An excerpt:

"*Maintain good dance position, good posture and... remain grounded."
As for the bent forward posture used when dancing the Lindy Hop, Frankie Manning is on the video from "Can't Top the Lindy Hop" specifically describing how he made a conscious decision to bend over, to change the look and line of the dance, to set him apart from other dancers. Note that he was still thinking like a dancer and performer, aware of the lines of the body. It wasn't totally arbitrary; he knew the aesthetics. Arthur Murray and the ballroom crew disagree with that aesthetic, and impose a straight back. That's a choice... their preference. On the posture "controversy", Frankie Manning says "Straight can be okay. Stiff is wrong. I don't teach people to bend over or straighten up--I teach people to relax. I tell them to, anyway.... You don't stoop over 'cause you're old, you straighten up 'cause you're old. I can't get over there like I used to!"

You know I've thought about the two styles of Lindy posture. I feel that the straighter posture is better in that it looks better and also helps create a better connection. What do you think?

[msc]

Here's my "checklist," pygmalion, at least for ballroom/Latin:

1) Separate the ribs and the hips as much as humanly possible.

2) Fold and contract the abdominals inward.

3) Lengthen the back as much as possible. Try to avoid a "sway back" at the base of the back. Use the lower back muscles to avoid this.

4) Set the head back using the upper back muscles. Once the head is set back, it's easier to straighten your neck.

5) Generally speaking, keep your weight on the inside half of your foot, maybe even more to the inside. In other words, keep your inner thighs engaged.

Those sorts of things apply across the board. There are other elements of poise/posture, such as positioning of the hips, ribcage, etc., but those things vary from dance to dance.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, msc! :D These are some new perspectives for me.
Number 4 and number 5 are a little difficult for me. #4, I understand, but have trouble doing. #5, I find hard to visualize. Putting your weight on the inside edge of the foot I now understand. But engaging the inner thighs I don't. Maybe my weight isn't far enough in for the proper muscles to engage? :?:

[msc]

#4 is hard for me too. I still tend to let my eyes vere towards the floor when I think, rather than looking out towards the horizon. Not a good thing.

Try this for #5. Stand with your feet together, weight split evenly between both feet. Now try to engage your muscles in such a way that the pressure on each foot is located almost entirely on, say, the inner thrd of each foot. I think the only way to achieve this result is to really engage those inner thighs, though I could be wrong.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, msc. I will try it. In front of a mirror. It's amazing how deceptive the feelings can be. I can feel like I'm standing up straight and doing things just right, but a picture is worth a thousand words. The mirror (or vidoetape) is the best way to tell what I'm really doing.

Thanks.

Jenn

[MissAlyssa]

think "tall" and pretend that there is a thread running all the way through you holding you up like a puppet. seperate the ribs and relax the shoulders...this is what I've been told.

[pygmalion]

I found this cool article that talks about the difference between walking posture and dance posture. It's written from a ballet perspective, but much of what's said applies to ballroom posture.

http://www.dancespirit.com/backissues/may_june00/dancersbody.shtml

[Adwiz]

Questions: What is good posture for dance, how do you develop the habit? And how is it different from the "stand up straight" good posture that our moms told us about when we were little? And why is it important?

I'm recovering from a fractured pelvis after getting hit by a drunk driver while working out on my road racing bicycle, and in the process my physiotherapist (a top pelvic specialist) told me something interesting about dancers' posture.

He said that the need for dancers -- especially ballroom but also ballet -- to kind of pull the tailbone forward a little for a cleaner look is actually not an ideal posture from a purely medical point of view. In the ballroom dances, and I think most notably the Samba, we have to compress the butt area by tucking it under just a little. This gives it a much better line for the Samba "bounce". He says that this isn't quite as healthy a posture as pushing the tailbone out. He wasn't referring to an arched back, which would be bad, but the difference between the tailbone being moved half an inch back as compared to forward. A good way to test the difference is to sit in a chair and compare the difference between tucking the tailbone underneath you vs. pushing it away from your body. In both cases your back should be straight, but there is a noticeable difference in how your back feels. He told me that pretty well all dancers are used to tucking their tailbone forward and that this may be great for dance posture but isn't quite as great for "life" posture.

Interesting? Agree? Disagree? Anyone else in the medical profession have a comment on this?

In any case, my rehabilitation efforts (five weeks now and I have a competition in a week) appear to have actually helped my posture. Because I've been so focused on how I'm standing, and trying to compensate for the natural compression you get from nursing a painful pelvis, my dance teacher and others are saying I look even taller now.

[SDsalsaguy]

Wow, sorry to hear about your injury Adwiz... but glad to hear that your recovery is coming along so well. Good luck with your upcoming comp!

I can relate, at least in part, to much of what you are saying. As I've commented in a few other posts I have a bad back, so am quite well versed with various postural concerns. While not as serious as your situation, I had 7 vertebrae and 3 rib heads out of place a week before my first comp myself...

Basically the natural "S" shaping/sway of the back is what acts as a nature's shock absorber for us and any action that reduces this natural curvature -- such as tucking the hips -- generates further compression, particularly through the lower back. The flipside to this, however, is that active posture uses and trains the muscles to help out rather then leaving everything to structural elements alone.

As far as your "enhanced" posture... yup, happened to me too. After coming back from one back injury I was being *very* careful and, in the process, ended up keeping my torso much more still and erect... which drew a comment about my improved posture from at least one local instructor.

[will35]

Adwiz writes, "He said that the need for dancers -- especially ballroom but also ballet -- to kind of pull the tailbone forward a little for a cleaner look is actually not an ideal posture from a purely medical point of view."

Sounds pretty logical. When people talk about dance in the olympics, it always makes me think of sumo wrestling. If a sumo wrestler tucked in his butt, he'd be on it all night. Look at every contact sport on earth. You'll not see anything like a ballroom dance posture.

[d nice]

You know I've thought about the two styles of Lindy posture. I feel that the straighter posture is better in that it looks better and also helps create a better connection. What do you think?

No. There is a specific relationship that is necessary for you to have proper lindy hop posture. This is maintained regardless of piking, forward "lean", or standing up.

It is an athletic posture:
1. weight on the ball of the foot
2. knee bent so it is over the ball of the foot
3. chest angled forward so the sternum is over the knee, over the ball of the foot
4. hips are back "out of the equation"

A lot of people do one or all the elements incorrectly. Makes it is difficult to move your body in the manner necessary for lindy hop with a different foot/knee/chest relationship.

Aesthetics are aesthetics, they are absed on your cultural perspective. Some people like ultra clean movements in their lindy hop. To Western European for me. It is without the aesthetic elements that created the dance. Some people don't like the look of barely restrained chaos that Frankie and the rest of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers were famous for. Some like something inbetween. I enjoy both depending on my partner and the song... but the music I love pretty much demands I dance "on the edge".

If you have the four elements I described above you have good posture for lindy hop. Standing straighter or more piked or more forward will in no way shape or form give you better anything at slow to medium tempos... at fast tempos standing up is death. You must lower your center of gravity and widen your base... but this can be done without resorting to the pike or forward lean.

[pygmalion]

Ahem! :lol: :lol: *giggle* Since this is the ballroom forum, could someone out there do for ballroom what d nice did so well for lindy? Give a brief description of proper posture for leads and follows?

No offense, guys. I think we could probably use a good description of proper ballroom posture, anyway. Anyone?

[d nice]

I found this cool article that talks about the difference between walking posture and dance posture. It's written from a ballet perspective, but much of what's said applies to ballroom posture.

I don't like the article. I've read it before and I find it more annoying now.

It makes a number of assumptions that limit its usefulness. It does not properly differentiate between natural posture and movement... as in the bomechanics behind instinctive motion, and limitations due to leanred behavior or physical impairement. Any change that forces the body to move or hold itself in a manner that differs from the way we are built is a bad thing.

Ballet (in the "old" manner) is bad for your body...

Thankfully so many other styles use more natural natural movement.

[pygmalion]

Good observations, dnice. :D What does anybody else think? Did anybody else actually read the article? :lol:

And from the perspective of a relative newbie (2+ years), ballroom posture doesn't feel all that natural, either. You get used to it, so that it feels normal after a while. But it really isn't the same as the good old stand up straight good posture Mommy and countless violin teachers taught me.

[will35]

I am glad you reminded me this was the ballroom forum. I get lost sometimes. But there still may be something to the comparison I made before. If ballroom wants to make it as a sport, it must realize that it is fairly new. It has a lot to learn about posture from say, Greco Roman Wrestling, Hammer Throw, Shotput. These are sports that have good, logical posture. Granted, the ballroom dancer is not looking to throw his/her partner a few hundred meters across a field, but.... Ballroom is, after all, a bunch of dances that were taken from their natural habitat and adapted (read: change of posture) to the European Styles of dance.

[msc]

LOL.

Lindy and Argentine Tango dancers lecturing ballroom dancers on posture. Gee, thanks fellas ... no really.

[will35]

Not lecturing. Just thinking aloud about sports. And wondering where the ballroom guys are in this thread.

[pygmalion]

Maybe this topic should be moved to the general dance discussion thread. I originally placed it in ballroom because ballroom posture, especially for smooth dancing, is such a specific animal. But we could do with some discussions and comparisons.

I also spent some time thinking about this last night. Though you may disagree, I'm coming to believe that ballroom dance IS a sport. And I think the seemingly exaggerated ballroom posture has developed for at least a couple reasons -- one is to create beautiful lines with the body, but another is to take advantage of aoerodynamics, particularly for some of the more advanced spinning figures in smooth/standard dancing. What does anybody else think?

[pygmalion]

Maybe we really should move this thread! :lol:

Here's a link, with pictures, that explains Argentine tango posture.
http://64.70.140.102/tutorial/dance-02.htm



To use this link, I'm required to give the copyright information, listed below.
Tango, Our Dance
This is a series of articles published periodically in El Firulete, The Argentine Tango Magazine by Alberto Paz and Valorie Hart. The information is based on their own experience, first as students of the dance and second as teachers of Argentine Tango around the United States. Copyright (c) 1998-2001 Planet Tango. All Rights Reserved. Permission to print or link is hereby given as long as the accompanying copyright legend is used.

[will35]

Well, I never intended to bring Argentine Tango into this thread. It is in the Ballroom section. Also, the sport-art question is completely different. Adwiz's quotation from the medical profession raises another topic. But the lady who wrote your article is a Physical Therapist, right? So, so what? Here is another question. We have MSC's and Miss Allyssa's ideas about good posture for Ballroom as opposed to Ballet. What about the difference in Standard and Smooth and Rythm and Latin and so forth? Do they all have the same posture? I read somewhere that people sometimes call certain Salsa styles "ballroomy". Is it the posture, or what?
I don't normally dance Ballroom, but I don't dislike it. I'm just asking questions.
BTW, That thread about dance as Sport or Art is dead and has been since the day it started. Nobody seems interested. I'm not terribly interested in it, but all I say is that Art is Sport all grown up. It seems like quite a regression to call dance sport now.

[pygmalion]

Well, if I didn't want Argentine tango here, I could have included the word ballroom in the thread title. :lol: Seriously, AT is okay by me.

I'm going to let others answer your ballroom posture questions first, will -- just to keep the conversation going. :D

And yes, it appears that the folks in this forum aren't really interested in the art/sport question. Surprising, when you consider the number and length of those debates held on other boards! :lol: Maybe it's because ballroom is just starting to pick up here. Who knows?

[will35]

Just pointing out that Argentine Tango posture is a completely different animal.

[pygmalion]

Wow! There's some good stuff out there on the web. This discussion thread is very, very long, or I'd post the whole thing. If you're interested in proper posture for standard or smooth dancing, this thread, particularly the first post, is good stuff. Written by Vernon Chang, former USABDA National Champion. :D

http://www.dancers-archive.com/rec-arts-dance/topics/posture-discussion.txt

[Taita]

Another interesting topic! (warning another long, potentially intimidating post to follow )My 2 cents.....

Ballroom posture is very natural. The challenge here is understanding what 'natural' is. Through evolution, the human body is the most marvelous creation ever known. (DISCLAIMER: I am not a medical professional (nor do I pretend to be one on TV ). The following is not intended to start a neverending argument on health/and or medical issues) If you look at someone with natural, functional, posture from the side(like young children), you will find that the joints stack one on top of the other like the floors of a tall building. The ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, and head are stacked directly on top of each other and the spine is in a natural S-Curve.

The reason why this is such a challenge is because the human body is so marvelous and so adaptable to it's environment. Our posture evolved to help us survive. Over the past century or so, we (at least we in the US ) live lives where our bodies adapt to sedentary living by spending endless hours sitting at a desk, or in front of a TV, or in a car. Therefore, our bodies adapt to an optimal position for this environment (tight hips, rounded back, slumped shoulders, etc...). Spend years of your life in this environment, and gradually this becomes your 'natural' posture. Our ideas of 'natural' is such that we now need to 'force' our bodies into a 'proper' position to dance. Most people teaching ballroom posture simply are not able to teach this aspect of posture or understand it's causes.

For me, I had to ask myself why I my body would not allow me to do things I see other dancers do even after years of training and practice. When I took a close look at the way my body held itself together, I noticed misalignment starting with my hips which reverberated all the way up to my shoulders. It's no wonder people could always tell I worked behind a computer all day! I needed to be proactive addressing these root causes for my bad posture. Consistent work on just my body flexibility and functional strength has allowed me to make dramatic improvements in both my posture and my dancing (just this past weekend, nobody could guess my job just by looking at me! ).

Also thinking of lifting yourself up by the top of your head (as Alyssa kindly pointed out ) will allow your shoulders to roll back into their natural position. Hope this helps!