American Star Ball

[Katarzyna]

Anyone planning to go?

[Larinda McRaven]

Unfortuantely no. It is the same weekend as a Show that Steve and I are doing here in CT that Saturday night ... and there is another competition here in CT/MA.

So much dancing... so little time.

[WRhythm]

Actually, I think my partner and I are planning to go. Our friend/coach will be competing with his new pro-rhythm partner for the first time there.

[Katarzyna]

That's great.

It's a first real comp for me and my new partner.

(We danced at Rutgers on Saturday, but that doesn't count)

[WRhythm]

Heh. I'm practically dance stalking you, Katherine! My partner and I were at Rutgers on Saturday too. :lol:

[Katarzyna]

What were you dancing?

[LXC]

No but good luck to all!

[Chris Stratton]

"We go to print May 8, and absolutly no entries will be accepted after that date."

Guess I probably won't be dancing :-(

[Purr]

"We go to print May 8, and absolutly no entries will be accepted after that date."

Guess I probably won't be dancing :-(

Why? It's only May 2.

[Kitty]

when are their syllabus events and prechamp? sunday? is prechamp saturday night?

[Katarzyna]

Open is on Saturday evening, and syllabus sunday morning ...

[Chris Stratton]

It's only open as in champ that is saturday - everything else including prechamp is sunday.

Apparently there are also "YCN" collegiate events Sunday morning as well, but can't find any details on those.

[WRhythm]

What were you dancing?

We both started dancing at the beginning of this year and we placed out of bronze at Rutgers. :D

[Katarzyna]

Good job!
Did you win Rutgers?

[Kitty]

What were you dancing?

We both started dancing at the beginning of this year and we placed out of bronze at Rutgers. :D

Congratulations, thats great!
Did you dance and place out of all styles?

[Katarzyna]

I sent my enries on the 4th and lesft them 2 voice messages... nobody got back to me.. I really hope there will be no problems... oh welll...

[pygmalion]

Most likely, they're swamped with last minute entries. :?

[Katarzyna]

Most likely, they're swamped with last minute entries. :?

Well, that would be good, it would mean it will be a big comp.... Most couples are away for Blackpool, so I am not sure that's the case...

I will give them a call again :?

[Katarzyna]

Finally :!: :!:

Got a confirmation. I guess we're going... Can't wait. I love to compete...

[Sagitta]

Finally :!: :!:

Got a confirmation. I guess we're going... Can't wait. I love to compete...

Cool!! :D

[Wildon]

I sent my enries on the 4th and lesft them 2 voice messages... nobody got back to me.. I really hope there will be no problems... oh welll...

I found the same situation. I called twice and didn't seem to get a response. Kind of unusual, especially since this comp has been down the past few years. I'd think they would return our calls immediatly. My next call may be my last

[Katarzyna]

They got back to me once I e-mailed them.. I guess that's the best way to reach them...

[pygmalion]

I sent my enries on the 4th and lesft them 2 voice messages... nobody got back to me.. I really hope there will be no problems... oh welll...

I found the same situation. I called twice and didn't seem to get a response. Kind of unusual, especially since this comp has been down the past few years. I'd think they would return our calls immediatly. My next call may be my last

Hi Wildon. Welcome. :D

[Larinda McRaven]

Welcome Wildon.

[alemana]

right now i'm trying to figure out how to get to the ASB via bus from NYC - doesn't look too difficult, actually. the hard part will be getting back late at night... that might not be possible.

[Katarzyna]

Hi,

If you figure out how to get there, could you share? I haven't looked into it yet?

Also, what are you dancing, what style/level?

[alemana]

not dancing.

i'm on the line with NJ transit right now - the hotel staff told me i could get a bus from Penn Station.

[Katarzyna]

not dancing.

i'm on the line with NJ transit right now - the hotel staff told me i could get a bus from Penn Station.
Too bad you're not dancing :(

Bus from Penn Station sounds good.. I love using public transportation with comp hair and makup... one get quite a bit of ... attention...

[alemana]

i'm a total beginner - not sure when i'll be ready for my first appearance in a pro-am. maybe july or something.

ok! i have transpo info. it's not public - it's a private bus line - but it's still inexpensive. it's called Suburban Transit and it leaves frequently from Port Authority.

they have an easily-navigable website with full schedule info.

To get from NYC to the East Brunswick Hilton hotel, you need a bus bound for PRINCETON.

The Friday NY - NJ schedule is here:

http://www.suburbantransit.com/routes/ny_princeton-mon_fri.html

and Friday NJ-NY is here:

http://www.suburbantransit.com/routes/Princeton_ny_mon_fri.html

The Sat/Sunday *to* East Brunswick is:

http://www.suburbantransit.com/routes/ny_princeton_sat_sun.html

and the Sat/Sunday *to* New York City is:

http://www.suburbantransit.com/routes/princeton_ny_sat_sun.html

[alemana]

oh, and whenever i start competing, it'll be rhythm.

[Katarzyna]

Thank you SO MUCH!!!!

Do you know where one needs to get off!

I hope that Saturday events will be done by 11:00....

[alemana]

One gets off at the "Nielson Parking" stop. Apparently this is adjacent to the hotel.

WHen are you going?

[Katarzyna]

I think the evening session starts at 8:30 on Saturday. Not sure exactly what time is the AM Open Standard.

What about you, are you seeing the whole comp, or a particular sessions?

[alemana]

i think i want to go on friday so i can watch the rhythm pro-ams... haven't seen this event before. i usually go either to watch my friends in syllabus latin, or to watch the pro events.

i'm gonna take a personal day and sequester myself in YET ANOTHER suburban hotel. oy.

[Katarzyna]

Well, enjoy it!

[Another Elizabeth]

n sounds good.. I love using public transportation with comp hair and makup... one get quite a bit of ... attention...
As long as the attention isn't "Hey baby, how much for a quickie?" :shock:

[Katarzyna]

n sounds good.. I love using public transportation with comp hair and makup... one get quite a bit of ... attention...
As long as the attention isn't "Hey baby, how much for a quickie?" :shock:
I think this depends on what time are you using the public transportation... :D

[Joe]

Looks like about the time you'll be using public transportation. ;)

[Katarzyna]

Well, you're assuming I will not find any friends that are driving there. I still have 3 more days to find someone :wink:

[alemana]

i have a question - the online schedule for this event provides very little detail. it just says

Friday Matinee May 20 - Session 1
All Session Times Unofficial
Check Program for Approximate times
Dressy Casual
8:00AM Registration and Program Corrections
9:00AM Pro/Am Solos & Showcases (throughout the day)
. Pro/Am International Latin Single Dances
. Pro/Am International Latin Championships and Scholarships
. Pro/Am American Rhythm Single Dances
. Pro/Am American Rhythm Championships and Scholarships


And then lists the evening session, with the Rising Star events.

I called the contact number on the site and left a messge, but does anybody have a more detailed schedule I could look at? thanks.

[Katarzyna]

If you get some answers, any additional info will be appreciated :)

[alemana]

The schedule is now up. The organizer just returned my phone call and let me know that they just this afternoon published the full schedule.

Web geek note: This could've been prevented if they'd added a single line of copy to the site saying "full schedule forthcoming." (<<< One of many reasons I should be hired as a consultant for AccessDance!)

Anyway, Friday looks like this:

8:00AM Registration and Program Corrections
9:00AM Pro/Am Solos & Showcases (throughout the day)
9:15 Pro/Am International Latin Single Dances
12:00 Pro/Am International Latin Championships and Scholarships
1:10 Pro/Am American Rhythm Single Dances
5:00 Pro/Am American Rhythm Championships and Scholarships


You can visit the site for the Saturday/Sunday schedule.

[Wildon]

The schedule is now up. The organizer just returned my phone call and let me know that they just this afternoon published the full schedule.

I'm sure it must very difficult to publish an exact schedule when the majority of entries come in at the last minute. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you publish an exact schedule too soon, it will almost certainly change later on. So I guess it's best to publish when it's ready.

[alemana]

i hear that. still, they should be transparent about their intentions on the site.

[Katarzyna]

Aparently there are 9 couples registered for Open Standard... I know 4 of them, courious about the other 5 :)

[alemana]

just back from ASB.

i sat through most of the afternoon pro-ams (arrived at 1:30 and the session lasted til 6) and then hung around for the rising stars after, although i bailed after rhythm.

the reason i went this afternoon (taking a personal day to do so!) was to scope out the pro-am competition and see if i felt i could throw my hat into that ring.

ladies and gentlemen, that's my beret on the floor. i'm so incredibly motivated, i was practicing my routine at the bus stop afterward.

[alemana]

now is the hard part: waiting for ASB results as i sit in my living room. i didn't go out for hte Open finals tonight - i had a one-off salsa workshop with a woman i've been DYING to train with - but would love it if anyone who was there could post some results. thanks!

[contracheck]

- but would love it if anyone who was there could post some results. thanks!
Professional Open latin
1. #124 Darius Penkauska/darina Jeleva
2. #115 Dmotriy Ostashkin/Svettana Ostashkina
3. #162 Alexander Senko/Lydia Petrgrova
4. #143 Jan Paulovich Iryna Pinihina
5. #158 Rafal Lukasiewicz/Ola Kozlowska


Amateur International Championship
1. #243 Nikolai Pilipenchuk/Natalia Skoorikova
2. #525 Alex Kleyman/???
3. #233 Jay Edmonds/Zoe Antoniou
4. #246 Max Sverzhin/Jackie Shapiro

[contracheck]

now is the hard part: waiting for ASB results as i sit in my living room. i didn't go out for hte Open finals tonight - i had a one-off salsa workshop with a woman i've been DYING to train with - but would love it if anyone who was there could post some results. thanks!

Professional Open Smooth
1. #105 Mazen Hamza/Irina Sarukhanyan
2. #102 Randy Dias/Viktoria Dias
3. #152 Joseph Howard/Leisa Douglas
4. #155 Sergiy Shapoval/Liza Smith
5. #103 Michael Lepore/Natalie Lepore
6. #156 Ivan Berkovic/Elisabeth Berkovic

Professional Open Rythm
1. #135 Felipe Telona/Carolina Telona
2. #176 Fabian Sanchez/Christina Penatello
3. #164 Luis & Anaya Grijavala
4. #152 Joseph Howard/Leisa Douglas)?? same as 2 above
5. #109 Lucas Jamie/Yanna Samkova

[alemana]

WHOAAAAAAA!!!!


thanks.

[mamboqueen]

Good for you, Alemana. So at what comp are we going to see you at??!! (Please say Empire State!)

Katharine - how'd it go?

[alemana]

i could look it up but i'm on a slow connection - when is empire state, please?

[mamboqueen]

I *think* it's on or around August 18th. Right in your backyard :)

[cl5814]

August 11 - 14, 2005 at the Crowne plaza manhattan hotel in times square.

www esdsc.com/

[alemana]

from the 2004 results i don't see pro-am events.... if there aren't, i won't be competing, since i don't have an amateur partner. :(

[mamboqueen]

It includes Pro/am, Alemana; I competed there last year. Same hotel.

Ack! My teacher thought it was the weekend after that.

[Katarzyna]

Good for you, Alemana. So at what comp are we going to see you at??!! (Please say Empire State!)

Katharine - how'd it go?

It went ok for us. Dancing wasn't very good but we couldn't have done better results wise even if we danced our best. 1 month into partnership... we have a lot of work to do ;)

For Standard Results:

1. Lucas and Karolina
2. Mark and Veronica
3. Andy and ... new partner.. Forgot her name
4. Nick Pilipenchuk and Natalia
5. US:)
6. Max Sverzhin/Jackie Shapiro
7. Andrew and Tonyang
8. Steve Malanga

[mamboqueen]

Not bad considering you have a new partner, Katharine. I didn't realize you were that "new" together. What's up next?

[Katarzyna]

Just working on things more:)

Planning to be actually really ready for Yankee and Manhattan.

American Star Ball was supposed to be just floor time and experience, I thought it will be a lot smaller, but it was nice to have a full final at least.

[alemana]

congratulations are in order, katarzyna.

i was a little surprised at the number of couples in a couple of the rising star events - only three entries in rising star rhythm, for instance. perhaps there was something else big going on that weekend.


the site doesn't appear to even have the Winner's Circle option... oh well.

[contracheck]

3. Andy and ... new partner.. Forgot her name


Probably #250 Andrey Klinchik/Julia Dzyuba

[Katarzyna]

3. Andy and ... new partner.. Forgot her name


Probably #250 Andrey Klinchik/Julia Dzyuba
That's correct

[LXC]

Congradulations, Katarzyna!

[Katarzyna]

Thank you!

[Wildon]

Just working on things more:)

Planning to be actually really ready for Yankee and Manhattan.

American Star Ball was supposed to be just floor time and experience, I thought it will be a lot smaller, but it was nice to have a full final at least.

I think you will find the Yankee to be a bit smaller, and the Manhattan a bit larger. American Star had 3700 entries this year while the Yankee had 3200 last year and the Manhattan had about 4000.

It's a fact that with close to 20 NDCA events, with about 15 Championships in the North East, very few crack the 4000 entry range, while most are between 2000 to 3500. There are only so many ways to divvy up the same pie.

[Katarzyna]

Yankee was big in the Am Open divisions though, bigger than ASB...

Manhattan might be larger.. We'll see.

[alemana]

i want to go up to the Yankee - it's my birthday weekend and that's how I'd love to spend it.

[LXC]

i want to go up to the Yankee - it's my birthday weekend and that's how I'd love to spend it.

Isn't it funny how it becomes not only part of daily/weekly schedule, but also vacations, birthdays, anniversaries, so on and so forth. But the most I've done is probably dancing 5 days in a row and that'd make me feel like dancing is taking over my life and I have to get away for a while.

[alemana]

ballroom dancing is just starting to be like that for me. so far i haven't scheduled any vacations or trips around salsa or ballroom, but i feel it's inevitable, especially in terms of the former.

[contracheck]

Standard Results:

1. Lucas and Karolina
2. Mark and Veronica
3. Andy and ... new partner.. Forgot her name
4. Nick Pilipenchuk and Natalia
5. US:)
6. Max Sverzhin/Jackie Shapiro
7. Andrew and Tonyang
8. Steve Malanga

Where does Lucas/Karolina team come from? Book does not have these dancers in this category.

[Chris Stratton]

Where does Lucas/Karolina team come from? Book does not have these dancers in this category.

Jonathan & Katiusha / Ballroom on Fifth

[contracheck]

Where does Lucas/Karolina team come from? Book does not have these dancers in this category.

Jonathan & Katiusha / Ballroom on Fifth

What I meant was Lucas/Karolina did not compete in this category. They could not have won the first place.

[Chris Stratton]

Where does Lucas/Karolina team come from? Book does not have these dancers in this category.

Jonathan & Katiusha / Ballroom on Fifth

What I meant was Lucas/Karolina did not compete in this category. They could not have won the first place.

Hmm, Katarzyna who did compete in that category seems to think that couple won... Perhaps their entry was too late to be included in the program?

The list you posted earlier in the thread was the under 21 event, not the amateur championship, right? EDIT: nevermind, looks like it was the latin event, sorry I misread and assumed it was standard.

[pygmalion]

Hmm, Katarzyna who did compete in that category seems to think that couple won... Perhaps their entry was too late to be included in the program?



Sounds like a good possibility, Chris. Those things do happen. 8) :D

[Chris Stratton]

And that "other" website has a post which puts the 7th place couple 1st! This has to be the most conflictingly reported comp ever.

[Katarzyna]

Where does Lucas/Karolina team come from? Book does not have these dancers in this category.

Jonathan & Katiusha / Ballroom on Fifth

What I meant was Lucas/Karolina did not compete in this category. They could not have won the first place.
Let me assure you that they did compete, and indeed win the event. They didn't register early enought to be included in the program.

[Katarzyna]

And that "other" website has a post which puts the 7th place couple 1st! This has to be the most conflictingly reported comp ever.

The results I provided are 100% correct. I'm not using the program, but I actually know who was there, and how everyone placed in my event... Curious why all the confusion...

[contracheck]

And that "other" website has a post which puts the 7th place couple 1st! This has to be the most conflictingly reported comp ever.

The results I provided are 100% correct.
Not 100% correct, but good enough. A name was misspelled: Lukasz Chekuba & Karolina Szpiech
No more confusion. They came late and stoled the show. You could have been 4th place. In any case, you looked fabulous. Did you see a handsome guy sitting with a beautiful woman near the deck with lighted cheerboard cheering for the real Lucas?

[Katarzyna]

And that "other" website has a post which puts the 7th place couple 1st! This has to be the most conflictingly reported comp ever.

The results I provided are 100% correct.
Not 100% correct, but good enough. A name was misspelled: Lukasz Chekuba & Karolina Szpiech
No more confusion. They came late and stoled the show. You could have been 4th place.


His name in Polish is Lukasz.... Lucas is just an English version...

I am glad they came. It's good when a strong couple can raise the level of the competition... Plus this competition wasn't about results in the first place (for me).

In any case, you looked favulous. Did you see a handsome guy sitting with a beautiful woman near the deck with lighted cheerboard cheering for the real Lucas?

There were many handsome guys with beautiful women. I might have missed one of them

[alemana]

for the rhythm results, the couple in third place was Luis Grijalva with Anya.

[contracheck]

The results I provided are 100% correct. There were many handsome guys with beautiful women. I might have missed one of them
It seems to me your standard for beuty is in a little low side. I did not see many beautiful guys or women.

[Katarzyna]

The results I provided are 100% correct. There were many handsome guys with beautiful women. I might have missed one of them
It seems to me your standard for beuty is in a little low side. I did not see many beautiful guys or women.

Hmm, perhaps your ego is on a little high side if you believe you were the only ones :wink:

[contracheck]

Hmm, perhaps your ego is on a little high side if you believe you were the only ones :wink:
It's strange. Several of my posts have disappeared without trace. Is anyone intercepting my posts? At any rate, keep your self esteem high. Winning is the only thing.

[carldancer]

now is the hard part: waiting for ASB results as i sit in my living room. i didn't go out for hte Open finals tonight - i had a one-off salsa workshop with a woman i've been DYING to train with - but would love it if anyone who was there could post some results. thanks!

Professional Open Smooth
1. #105 Mazen Hamza/Irina Sarukhanyan
2. #102 Randy Dias/Viktoria Dias
3. #152 Joseph Howard/Leisa Douglas
4. #155 Sergiy Shapoval/Liza Smith
5. #103 Michael Lepore/Natalie Lepore
6. #156 Ivan Berkovic/Elisabeth Berkovic

Professional Open Rythm
1. #135 Felipe Telona/Carolina Telona
2. # 152 Joseph Howard/Leisa Douglas)
3. #164 Luis Grijavala
4. ?? same as 2 above
5. #109 Lucas Jamie/Yanna Samkova

Second place in Rhythm was Fabian Sanchez and Christina Penatello.
Fabian and Christina also performed on of the best Mambos I have ever seen. They won that Dance.

[alemana]

sorry to have missed that mambo - i rarely like the mambos i do see so it would be great to have one blow me away for once.

[contracheck]

Professional Open Rythm
1. #135 Felipe Telona/Carolina Telona
2. # 152 Joseph Howard/Leisa Douglas)
3. #164 Luis Grijavala
4. ?? same as 2 above
5. #109 Lucas Jamie/Yanna Samkova

Second place in Rhythm was Fabian Sanchez and Christina Penatello.
Fabian and Christina also performed on of the best Mambos I have ever seen.
The second place was won by #176, which must have been worn by Fabian Sanchez/Christina Penatello. Their names are not in the book but I clearly saw the numer 176 (#176 is not in the book either). In retrospect I should have known better because my partner told me that Christina was a daughter of her teacher Charles Penatello 25 years ago, whom she introduced to me moments before. Thisng were moving fast that evening.

[Katarzyna]

Where are you seeing the results? Are they posted somewhere by competitor number?

[contracheck]

Where are you seeing the results? Are they posted somewhere by competitor number?

Numbers and names are in the book. As the winners were announced I wrote down the order of winners; I am at your service faithfully. Problems arise when the winners registered late and their names are not listed in the book, because there is no way for me to remember difficult names like Polish or Russian or Indian names as they were announced.

[Katarzyna]

oh ok..

Would love to see marks from this comp :?

didn't think they would be available...

[LauraB]

Could someone please post the results of Rising Star Rhythm and Smooth?

[alemana]

there were only three couples in rising star rhythm. i can tell you who won it: luis grijalva with anya.

[contracheck]

Could someone please post the results of Rising Star Rhythm and Smooth?

At you service, Maam:

Rising Star Rhythm
1 #164 Luis & Anya Grijalva
2 #109 Lucas Jaime & Yanna Samkova
3 #166 Rob McGurn & Ann Stasioski


Rising Star Smooth
1 #144 Gunnar & Daryll Sverrison
2 #102 Randy & Viktoria Dias
3 #155 Sergiy Shapoval & Liza Smith
4 #103 Michael & Natalie Lepore
5 #156 Ivan & Elisabeth Berkovic
6 #??

[alemana]

(again, Luis Grijalva with Anya. Guess the program was wrong.They do not have the same last name.)

[mamboqueen]

Wonder why Daryll and Gunnar didn't do rythym??!

[alemana]

a little bird mentioned to me that the glut of comps around here this time of year causes many people to chose carefully for financial reasons.

[alemana]

but that makes no sense, they were already there.

[carldancer]

Wonder why Daryll and Gunnar didn't do
rythym??!

They couldn't since the won the US Rising Star.

[mamboqueen]

Gotcha!

And welcome to the forums :)

[Wildon]

but that makes no sense, they were already there.

So were Tony and Inna, and they skipped this comp. I wonder why. Do the feel that they are above the local events now that they are consistant winners. Like many of the Intl' latin and standard couples.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, it is sort of the in temporal shadow of a slightly more famous competition.

[Katarzyna]

well, many couples were still here that weekend.. not all

[alemana]

but blackpool doesn't include a rhythm category (obviously) and that field was thin at Brunswick too.

[Katarzyna]

It was a pretty small comp.... many people probably didn't want to come all the way to NJ just to dance one round... ??

[contracheck]

Well, it is sort of the in temporal shadow of a slightly more famous competition.

Inna was there as a spectator. I told her that she was becoming more an more like Hollywood glamour star each time I saw her. He intorduced me to Dovolani, to whom I said that I bought his Latin shirt and people might mistake me as as he when I wore it. I had thought that he was unapproachable but, on the contrary, he was exceptionally kind to me.

[carldancer]

Well, it is sort of the in temporal shadow of a slightly more famous competition.

Inna was there as a spectator. I told her that she was becoming more an more like Hollywood glamour star each time I saw her. He intorduced me to Dovolani, to whom I said that I bought his Latin shirt and people might mistake me as as he when I wore it. I had thought that he was unapproachable but, on the contrary, he was exceptionally kind to me.

Tony’s is a very nice guy and very approachable. I think he is the clear favorite in USDC(But not my favorite couple.)

[Kitty]

It was a pretty small comp.... many people probably didn't want to come all the way to NJ just to dance one round... ??

I don't see how pros would need a different justification to compete than amateurs.
Amateurs compete to get floor time/competition experience, and for the thrill of the sport - they just love to compete. Also competitions are convinient landmarks for setting personal goals. What other reasons are there?

Maybe the check at some competition doesn't compare to that at a larger competition, but hey, at a larger competition not everyone gets to win! As I understand even in pro most of competitors don't receive any money at all (except for first 3 places).

[LauraB]

Pros care about the amount of money awarded because that's one way they pay their rent. Amateurs usually have another way of making money (day job), where pros make a living off of dancing. We/They love competing as well, we'd have to to do it, because it doesn't pay much. Why travel and pay for the hotel if the prize money doesn't even come close to covering the weekend bills. In pro competitions, usually the top 6 get checks. If you are a top competitor, you know you'll place within the top three or so, you can figure out what you'd make, in comparison to some smaller comps.

[Larinda McRaven]

I don't see how pros would need a different justification to compete than amateurs.
Amateurs compete to get floor time/competition experience, and for the thrill of the sport - they just love to compete. Also competitions are convinient landmarks for setting personal goals. What other reasons are there?

The reasons for pros are wholly different.

For some low level and beginning pros, yes, floor time is a big factor. As in this comp. Many of the pros are just getting started and are particularly looking for a comp with very small fields so they can be seen. These pros need people to just see their face, and that won't happen at a large comp with good attendance. But for others, floor time is not a factor.

Prestige is a big thing. Important pros want to be seen at important competitions with important judges. When an organizer hires only local judges and their close friends it signals to pros that the competiton is not important enough.

And yes, money is a big deal. We have actually been informed that it is our duty as Open Finalists NOT to attend the small competitons, especially when they offer relatively poor prize money. It is up to us to stand up for the little guys and demand better paychecks. And if we continue to attend and support the comps that skimp on prize checks we are enabeling the organizers to jip us and our future stars.

As with anything if you want a better product you are going to have to pay better wages to attract the better workers. I intend to make a living at this, not just dance because I love it (that is what Friday night parties are for).

[Larinda McRaven]

Also competitions are convinient landmarks for setting personal goals.

Also when there is nobody competing that is at your level... who are you comparing yourself too. Does a finalist really need to go out and dance against 5 Rising Star couples to prove something to themselves?

And LauraB is right, all 6 of the finalists recieve a paycheck.

[Kitty]

As with anything if you want a better product you are going to have to pay better wages to attract the better workers. I intend to make a living at this, not just dance because I love it (that is what Friday night parties are for).

Competition is not just a performance, and prize money are not wages... even if this is the current situation, I don't believe that was the intent.
While the primary reason for a large first place pro prize might be to attract the best couples, the reason for the rising star and 6th place awards is to support the competitors and help them pay for lessons.

When competition organizers want to make money from the spectator's tickets for the evening session, they either invite the best couples to compete (all expenses paid), often from abroad, or organize a professional show (by a top couple, like Jonathan and Katusha). I really don't think that I - and most interested in ballroom people - am likely to spectate a comp which has some top rising star couples competing (unless I know them personally), but I am very likely to go if there is one world-class couple competing or doing a show.

So it seems rising star and even open pro categories at most small comps are not really serving the spectators, but the competitors themselves. And the money offered to the finalists is just the organizers' effort to support the sport. They are free money, intended to help out those who aren't neccessarily good and world-class yet. That's how I look at it at least.

[Kitty]

Also competitions are convinient landmarks for setting personal goals.

Also when there is nobody competing that is at your level... who are you comparing yourself too. Does a finalist really need to go out and dance against 5 Rising Star couples to prove something to themselves?

oh yes, if a competition is not well contested, it is a perfect reason not to go, if one is beyond the stage when you need more floor time to get experience. Why spend money on comp expenses in that case?



of course if there were good prize money that would be a reason to go, but money has to come from somewhere, and if the organizers don't think they'd make the money back by selling the evening session spectator tickets, they can't afford offering large prizes. Alternatively, they could charge the amateur competitors more to pay the pros, but I don't think that would be justified and good for the dancesport (and they are probably doing it already).

[Chris Stratton]

I'm starting to wonder if the simplest way to divide people into two categories of competition elgiblity would be instead of the current pro and somewhat amateur system, to simply have events which award prize money, and events which prominently do not. Anyone could enter the later, but it would by definition be a financial loss to do so, so presumably only hobbyists or those trying to gain exposure would do so. Even a revolving door between the categories would probably work if it were something like "a couple may not change divisions more than once in a six month period, unless changing partners"

[pygmalion]

From what I gather here, the labels can be somewhat meaningless, not? 8)

(Edit: That is to say, in terms of the ability or experience of the dancer in question. In terms of eligibility restrictions, etc, the labels, at the moment, can carry quite a bit of weight. :? )

[Chris Stratton]

In terms of eligibility restrictions, etc, the labels, at the moment, can carry quite a bit of weight. :? )

On paper perhaps, but not in reality.

[pygmalion]

*giggle* No comment.

[Wildon]

[quote=Larinda McRaven][quote=Katarzyna]It was a pretty small comp.... many people probably didn't want to come all the way to NJ just to dance one round... ??

.



Prestige is a big thing. Important pros want to be seen at important competitions with important judges. When an organizer hires only local judges and their close friends it signals to pros that the competiton is not important enough.

And yes, money is a big deal. We have actually been informed that it is our duty as Open Finalists NOT to attend the small competitons, especially when they offer relatively poor prize money. It is up to us to stand up for the little guys and demand better paychecks. And if we continue to attend and support the comps that skimp on prize checks we are enabeling the organizers to jip us and our future stars.

As with anything if you want a better product you are going to have to pay better wages to attract the better workers. I intend to make a living at this, not just dance because I love it (that is what Friday night parties are for).


So I guess you won't be doing any comps in the North East. From the
Yankee down to the Virginia State the prize money for Pros is just about the same. with the top prize at $1000 for the open divisions at almost all of the events. Events that all range between 2000 to 4000 entries.

You should be pissed off at the so called important comps like the Ohio Star Ball which is 5 to 6 times larger than these events and yet only has a top prize that is only twice as much, and also has a sponsor for each and every event. So that organizer really is giving you nothing. That event should have a top prize of at least $5000 to $6000 for first place in the open divisions. In almost all of the so called small events the organizer is putting out most if not all of the money.

If you have been informed only to do " important large events", than I think you have been given bad advice. If you expect to make a living from competition you are sadly mistaken , The more you are seen, no matter where, is better for your career. You compete to attract students and to get shows. The competition is a means to an end, and should not be considered an end in itself. In fact many people thought you have retired, since you have not been seen that much any more. Your competitive career is too shrt to cherry pick. "Out of sight, out of mind"

The Canadians know how to work it. Jean Mark & France, Alain and Anik, Pierre and Mireille, and now Danny & Lynn did all the comps you are skipping. Gary and Dianna were two times World 10 dance Champions and did every comp in the Nort East. Who got more shows and had a bigger following than that group.

As far as judging is concerned. I think you mean politically connected, rather than important. A mark is a mark no matter who it comes from.
All of the organizers judge. What is local to you, is distant to the couples on the West Coast. The American Star Ball had a representaive panel. Bruno & Luann Collins, Martin Lamb, Vincent Bulger, Sandra Fortuna, Sam Sodano, Mariann Nicole, Cathy Nyemchek, Frank Regan, Linda Dean, Tony Meridith etc. All Champions and great dancers in their own right. Yet the pro events were very small. Was it the money???
Tell us where you go for a better panel and better money. Define an important comp and an important judge. I think you must be referring to only 4 events, Ohio, Emerald, USDSC, & Heratage, because all of the other 96 are about the same size - 2000 to 4000 entries.
I think the advice you got sucks and will only limit your career in the end.
Maybe if you supported some of the so called "smaller comps" they would eventually become larger events, and therefor be able to afford larger purses and more important judges.

By the way the American Star had about 4000 entries.

[Chris Stratton]

Are there perhaps some differences in the competition considerations for professionals between American and international styles?

Specifically, I'm wondering if the self-contained nature of American style makes the fields more stable, perhaps leading to a kind of performer focus, wheras in International style foreign couples can drop in far more easily, perhaps introducing a greater element of risk?

[Larinda McRaven]

So I guess you won't be doing any comps in the North East.
I never said we don't do small comps. I said it is a consideration for all pros.

You should be pissed off at the so called important comps like the Ohio Star Ball
I am pissed off at no one. Please do not assume that about me.

If you have been informed only to do " important large events", than I think you have been given bad advice.
This advice was given by a former 4 times US Champion. I'll be sure to tell him you think he gives bad advice. And actually you misqouted me anyway.


If you expect to make a living from competition you are sadly mistaken , The more you are seen, no matter where, is better for your career. You compete to attract students and to get shows. The competition is a means to an end, and should not be considered an end in itself.
In the 7 years we have danced, we have competed over 150 times. We won 36 Rising Star Titles, and 75 Open titles. We have enough business and we do shows all the time, but thanks for the business advice. I do not consider the competitions the end in itself. It is because we payed opur dues in the past the we enjoy many rewards now, and have to opportunity to pick and choose.

In fact many people thought you have retired, since you have not been seen that much any more. How is doing 12 comps a year (as we did last year) "Not that much anymore". Simply because we chose not do 35 comps a year as we used to I suppose that 12 seems like not much. But it is all relative I suppose.


As far as judging is concerned. I think you mean politically connected, rather than important. A mark is a mark no matter who it comes from. All of the organizers judge. What is local to you, is distant to the couples on the West Coast. The American Star Ball had a representaive panel.
I never singled out American Star as having local judges, I said that the panel is one of the considerations that Pros think about.

I think the advice you got sucks and will only limit your career in the end. Maybe if you supported some of the so called "smaller comps" they would eventually become larger events, and therefor be able to afford larger purses and more important judges.
Considering we are 4 times Open Finalists and Ohio Finalists, and ISTD North American Champions and I have been Top Teacher at several local comps (sometimes with well over 100 pro-am entries) I would say that I have and continue to do my share opf supporting the local economy. My students have gotten Top Student awards and the studios that we compete with get Top Studio awards. So I never said I don't support them. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Kitty simply asked me why pros reasons for choosing a comp would be different that an amateurs reasons. I gave her several that myself and most every othe top pro couple thinks and talks about when choosing their calendar. I never singled out American Star.

Your tone is slightly offensive. And as a moderator here, I have tried to never pushemyself or my views on people. I also chosen to support this Forum because in the past Pros that have been terribley bashed and offended at the way they have been attacked online. I have made it my job here to offer the flip side of the views to the masses of Ams and Pro-ams that do not understand the other side of the industry.

Now if you really care to discuss my career or speak about me in the future you are welcome to call me 860-533-1889 or email me mcraven@connecticutballroom.com

[pygmalion]

Yep, Larinda. Sometimes people forget that, online or not, a little courtesy goes a long way.

When competition organizers want to make money from the spectator's tickets for the evening session, they either invite the best couples to compete (all expenses paid), often from abroad, or organize a professional show (by a top couple, like Jonathan and Katusha). I really don't think that I - and most interested in ballroom people - am likely to spectate a comp which has some top rising star couples competing (unless I know them personally), but I am very likely to go if there is one world-class couple competing or doing a show.

This is an interesting point, Kitty. I wonder if the reason top couples are invited is primarily to attract spectators. And I wonder what role the spectators really do play in this whole thing, in the mind of organizers. Are they a primary source of income? Or are they just one of a few interested groups that need to be accomodated? Yes, I know that the evening session tickets are the most expensive ones. But, unless you're talking about a really huge, well-attended comp, I'm not sure that the ticket prices add up to all that much money, comparatively speaking. Or do they? *shrug*

[dancefox]

My impression is that the pros are not really that concerned with the prize money. Give me another profession where a couple could travel less than an hour, spend 45 minutes getting ready, dance for 8 minutes, and walk away with a check for $800-$1000! Well, OK, $80 for an entry fee, $6 to park.

If it is your "profession," you owe it to the dance community to wholeheartedly support and participate in local events, then pick and choose events where you will have to travel and lose considerable teaching time.

I was at the American Star and very surprised and dismayed at the lack of "hot shot" pros competing.

[pygmalion]

No offense, dancefox. But you didn't mention her $3000 gown or his $1000 tailsuit, their hundreds of dollars in shoes and other equipment, the money and time they spent on coaching, their travel and living costs, their possibile lost income from lessons they couldn't give while competing, or the possibility that they might spend all of that investment without winning anything.

I don't know, since I'm not a dance pro. But I don't think it's as simple as a half-hour drive and eight minutes of dancing to pick up a thousand dollar check.

Or am I overcomplicating things? :?

[dancefox]

You're not over complicating things. You are over simplifying. If you are a competitor, who
already owns one or two gowns,
or who is sponsored by one of the dressmakers (many are),
and you live in NY,
and you get in your car,
spend up to $10 or $20 to drive less than an hour away
and pay an $80 entry fee,
and don't miss teaching time because it's already Saturday night,
and you dance a final for 8 minutes,
and you can win $800-$1000,
you are misinformed if you think it is a waste.

[Chris Stratton]

But don't forget you are also trying to get ready to fly to England in a few days in order to prepare for the major event of the year...

[alemana]

the pros i know are definitely interested in prize money and its a consideration for them in all they do.

i also would like to reqgister my dismay at the tone in this item. criminey.

[pygmalion]

Ditto that, alemana. Criminey. :lol: :lol:

[Wildon]

[quote="pygmalion"]No offense, dancefox.

I don't know, since I'm not a dance pro. But I don't think it's as simple as a half-hour drive and eight minutes of dancing to pick up a thousand dollar check.

True there is a great expense in the initial start up cost. Gowns,shoes, tail suites etc. But as I mentioned before, there are about 15 NDCA events within a 2 hour drive from NY. That's a possible $10,000 to $15,000 pay day for a top 3 placing pro. Not to mention the exposue, the possibilities of shows, and students that may be picked up by the industrious pro couple. Lets face it it's better than sitting home and making nothing, while still having to buy the gowns, suites, shoes etc. for the so called important events that usually require a flight and hotel rooms. So they are a monitary looser even if they take first place.
Plus most top pros recoup their money by selling their costumes. They just don't throw them away.

I remember a time when the Mosteika's won both the Philadelphia Festival and the now Manhattan on the same weekend. Not bad for just a short drive up and down the turnpike.

[Larinda McRaven]

Competitions are not the only way to build a business or lable oneself a Pro. Right now we are in another state entirely coaching for two days. Just because I am a competing pro does not mean that my life has to revolve around waiting for the next competition. I skipped a competition just the other weekend to fly home to the mid-west for my Great-Aunts 80th Surprise Birthday Party, and you know why I did that??? Because when my Grandmother was alive, I missed her 80th birthday party so that I could be at a competition. :roll:

As I said to Kitty earlier, young pros pay their dues by working hard every weekend to be seen. We have done that, I have missed weddings, birthday parties, funerals, and my 10th Highschool Reunion. Top pros have all been there and done that. We are not required to continue to do that. We have choices, and when a comp does not offer enough incentive, we have the right not to chose it.

[standardgirl]

As I said to Kitty earlier, young pros pay their dues by working hard every weekend to be seen. We have done that, I have missed weddings, birthday parties, funerals, and my 10th Highschool Reunion. Top pros have all been there and done that. We are not required to continue to do that. We have choices, and when a comp does not offer enough incentive, we have the right not to chose it.

I totally agree!

It's kind of like the Entertainment Industry, you certainly do not expect to see Jennifer Roberts in a cheap/local production, and you more certainly won't question her on the decision.

But when an actor or a model first starts out in the business, they would do almost ANYTHING just to be seen. A lot of models I know (including myself) will shoot for magazine for free, some of them (In fact, A LOT of them, to be honest) are even willing to pay for travel and all the other expenses just to get that exposure! And you will most certainly find girls who are will to PAY the photographer for photo shots! (Ok, not me, but a lot of them do) I modeled for a local magazine without pay last month, because I don't care, and I just want to be in the magazine and to be seen of course! Well, at least, they provided the clothes, and makeups and everything else.

But you get the point, right?
If you won't question a movie star or a super model, why question a top pro in dancing? What's the difference?

[Kitty]

As far as judging is concerned. I think you mean politically connected, rather than important. A mark is a mark no matter who it comes from. All of the organizers judge. What is local to you, is distant to the couples on the West Coast. The American Star Ball had a representaive panel.
I never singled out American Star as having local judges, I said that the panel is one of the considerations that Pros think about.

Actually it is one of the considerations for everyone, amateurs too.


Asking myself the question why do I want to compete often, my primary need is the floor time. The more - the better. So that I am less nervous on the floor when it comes to the important events. For someone who has been competing for a while and doesn't need the floor time small uncontested comps are not interesting to do (unless there is some other incentive such as money).

[Larinda McRaven]

Actually now Kitty, I am sure the Ams and Pros have almost the exact same consideration when it comes to picking the myriad of comps, with the exception of the purse, you still have to sort out locale and distance, travel time and expenses, judging panels, assumed competitors, how ready you are with your choreography (no sense showing up when you have a whole new routine given to you the day before), whether you even like the hotel and town can come into play... in addition to just getting the floor time you need and of course dancing simply because we love to dance.