Salsa Rejection: When is it appropriate?

[johnsnjr]

Did you know that there’s power in salsa dancing? What kind of power you might ask? Power to uplift, entertain, communicate, relieve, teach, learn, unify, love and accept; unfortunately there is also a flipside to this extraordinary power. Salsa can also be used to discourage, avoid, separate, upstage, aggravate, mislead, scrutinize, hate and REJECT.

Is there ever an appropriate time to use the flipside of this extraordinary power to reject someone’s dance request?

Most people would immediately say “No, you should dance with as many people as possible. Salsa should be about having fun and accepting people regardless of level.”

Others would say, “Sometimes its ok to say no. Sometimes you go to a club, social, or congress to dance with people on your level”

The rest just say the most popular response…..”It just depends. Sometimes you maybe in the mood to dance with anyone, sometimes you want to dance with specific individuals…it just depends.”

If you are truly into salsa dancing you have faced the dilemma of salsa rejection at some point in your salsa journey whether receiving or initiating it.

Unfortunately women tend to have the power when it comes to rejection; why, because 99% of the time a guy is asking a lady to dance. Although I believe in equal rights for all genders, I guess since guys get to lead the dance (most of the time), we should have to suffer a little extra at some point of the process.

Nevertheless, despite this unavoidable pressure that comes with being a lead, I still see a lot of ladies not dancing, complaining and pouting in the corners of the clubs. Ladies…do you feel a sense of rejection because no one is asking you to dance? You do. Well, I have absolute no pity for you. (I know that sound harsh doesn’t it) But truthfully, if you really wanted to dance, all you have to do is “appear to want to dance.” This can be accomplished by standing near the dance floor, smiling, nodding your head to the music, doing a halfway basic step, and even singing the lyrics if you know them, faking it if you don’t. I guarantee some guy will ask you to dance (I know I would), if not, there is probably a bigger issue at hand.

If this doesn’t work, you can always simply ask a guy to dance. Asking a GUY, I know, how degrading!! That’s almost like being desperate or something; however, most guys don’t see it that way, and if they do there’s definitely something wrong with them. If anything, guys are usually shocked, but delighted to see a women step out of the normal process and ask us to dance. Ladies if you find yourself complaining or pouting in the salsa corner because no one is asking you to dance you may want to ask yourself this question; “Is it better to remain upset but not appear to be desperate or should you step away from the norm to have a great time?”

So with that said let examine this whole rejection thing…

Sizing up a Salsero: This is an all too common act misused by beginners, intermediate and advanced dancers, namely ladies. That’s right I said it, LADIES… This is the process of looking at a guy for the first time (having never seen him dance before) and determining if he fits the profile of a qualified salsa dancer, by merely one glimpse. Now that’s a lot of power. You might be in the wrong profession if you can do this effectively. The problem is most people don’t. I take this one personally because I fall victim to it so often. I know I’m not a skinny Latin guy with wide leg dress pants, a shimmery dress shirt, and shiny shoes. However, that does not mean I can’t break out a mean basic salsa step. In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, here’s one scenario:

I walk up to a young lady in the club and say “Excuse me miss, what’s your name, Can you come, hang with me…” Oh my bad wrong genre! Take two….I’m in the “salsa club,” I walk up to a young lady and say, “Excuse me, would you like to dance,” she visually sizes me up and with a confused gesture responds with the following: “Do you know how to dance?” The normal more sarcastic Johnny thinks to himself, “hmmm, would I be hanging out in a salsa club, nodding my head to salsa music, and asking you to dance if I had no clue how to dance….” But since I am trying to use my powers for good, (you know love, uplifting, communicating, and that other stuff I mentioned earlier), I politely smile and say, “yeah I can dance a little…”

Now there are generally two types of responses: The Good and The Evil.

The Good….”Ok, let’s dance,” she responds. We proceed to the floor, I initiate the basic step on time (to her surprise), give here a nice prep, a few turns, a couple cross body lead turn patterns and she’s all smiles for the remainder of the dance. Guys, you may have to do a little more depending on her level, but if she smiling you may never have to experience the “decision-making” from her again. She will also tell her friends about you, so there will be even fewer decisions to be made that night. Salsa is such a beautiful thing!

Ok, what if you’re not good? Glad you asked:

If you don’t know the basics…. you’ll probably proceed to the floor initiate a step (possibly on top of her foot), mimic a couple of moves you saw someone else doing, move to your rhythm and hopefully finish out the song. Chances are, if she’s nice, she will still smile and even say thank you for the dance; however, she’ll probably avoid you for the remainder of the night and warn her friends about you. You may want to work the other side of the club after this dance.

Ok guys, what if you think you’re really good, but you’re really not good? Review the above scenario.

Finally, what if both of you’ll have no clue what’s going and you think you’re doing salsa when it’s really a merengue song? You’ll probably have the time of you life. Heck this might end up being some sort of love connection, so work it out bro!

Now for The Evil….your initial response to her question, “Can you dance?” just wasn’t good enough.

Chances are you are secretly trying to holla at (flirt) her and you’re merely using this salsa stuff as a method to get closer; after all guys are way too shallow to simply enjoy a dance with no strings attached, right? So she gives the abrupt rejection... but wait a second buddy… you don’t get off that easy, there are several types of abrupt rejections:

• You may get the “I can’t believe this fool has the audacity to ask me to dance, does he know who heck I am, he better recognize!!!” –Look of Disgust- before the actual rejection follows! Ladies this is the absolute worst way for a guy to get rejected. He will always remember you, but for the wrong reason! You are officially on the DND list (see below).

DND list: Do not dance with her even if she is the last person walking the face of the earth and begs me to dance with her; and if she is the last person on earth, my freestyle and shines will be really really good.

• You may get the salsa water break rejection. Generally she’ll give you a slight frown followed by a pleading explanation, “I am really really tired right now, I want to finish my water (or drink), my feet hurt really really bad, maybe another time.” Not so bad right, WRONG…This doesn’t become evil until she is on the floor breaking it down with another guy before can you get two feet away from her; And she strategically makes sure “another time” never arrives. This is also a very popular way to get rejected. Ladies, we will remember you and we are bitter for the time being, but we’ll recover much quicker than the previous discussed scenario. Chances are you won’t even make the DND list but you are definitely on the DNA list (see below).

DNA list: Do not ask this girl to dance ever again. The only way we will dance is if she asks me. Afterwards, I may consider removing her from the DNA list.

• Finally you may get the simple, yet cold “thanks for sweating me (smile), but no thanks on the dance (response).” Generally you get this response because in her mind there’s no way in the world you could really be solid enough to hang with her on the floor; or… she’s just not feeling it right now; or… she’s not feeling you right now. Luckily guys brush this off pretty easily (what can I say, smiling is a powerful thing), plus we’ve already spotted someone else to dance with or we really just don’t care (we’ve probably had a few drinks anyway; tomorrow we won’t even remember this experience).

So is there ever a time when it’s okay for ladies to reject someone. YES! (I know, I’m such a sellout!) But sometimes a lady has a legitimate reason for saying no and here are some acceptable terms for “politely” (remember the power behind that smile ladies) telling a guy no.

• Ok guys, you’ve danced with her for 20 straight songs, she’s about to fall out and die from exhaustion and dehydration but that’s not stopping you at all; and worst of all the DJ is blending the music, so she definitely can’t escape this salsa hell. Guys stop being stalkers and go see if those turn patterns will work on someone else, it’s practically choreography for her at this point. Besides, there’s a lot guys, like me, waiting for an opening that you just won’t allow. Ladies it’s ok to avoid this guy.

• This guy really suffers from the David Copperfield syndrome. No matter how much she hates it or how many people you’ve injured, you just gotta try the back flip, neck drop, twisting thing you saw Francisco do. The only problem is that he was on stage and you’re in the middle of a crowed dance floor. Save the dangerous tricks for ample space and stop endangering her well being for the sake of showing off. Remember ladies your safety comes before showing off some guys salsa moves.

• Finally there’s LA Style, NY Style and there’s “Ike and Tina-Turner Style.” He’s never heard of it, but dances it very well. It looks like some sort of domestic dispute when he’s dancing. Was she cheating on you? Did she disrespect you in front of your homeboys? There’s has to be a better way to work this situation out. Somebody call the bouncers…. If he’s known in the ladies rest room (of the salsa club) for all the arms he’s nearly torn out of socket, it's ok to avoid this guy as well.

Ladies if you ever come across any of these described scenarios, the salsa gods give you permission to give him that nice pretty smile and gently decline (wow I can believe I just encouraged this type of behavior).

Ok, maybe there are times when it’s ok for ladies to use the power of rejection for evil, I mean, their protection. However, ladies whether you’re mambo diva or a confused beginner; NO still feel the same even to the most advanced dancer. So try your best to smile and be gentle if you’re going to decline someone. I promise we won’t hate you as much.

As for the guys, we need to discover something called a quick recovery! Don’t let the power salsa rejection ruin your night, suck it up and move on to the next dance bro. Just keep your DND and DNA lists handy. Besides you don’t want to miss one of best dances of your life, which could be that very next dance.

Johnny R. Johnson
-www.lavozdelmambo.com – Editor

**Disclaimer: The Stuck-up Mambo Diva, Confused Beginner, Salsa Stalker, David Coopperfield, and Ike Tuner On2 are completely fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

[Pacion]

Having checked the link to the online magazine, it appears that this is also an article from the May 2005 instalment. Therefore, has been moved, like the other one, to the Articles section...

[randomMysh]

Is it me or did that sound really bitter? :?

[delamusica]

It's not just you.

[Ms_Sunlight]

Moderately bitter, but maybe the guy has reason to be, eh?

You see, I can't think of any reason why a woman would think it appropriate to quiz a man who's asked her to dance on how good he is. If women have done that to him, well, it would make me bitter in his place.

"Can you salsa?" maybe, if you're trying to weed out the drunken fools that just want to get their hands on a hottie. "Are you good?" and the implied "Do you deserve to dance with me?" definitely not.

[Pacion]

"Can you salsa?" maybe, if you're trying to weed out the drunken fools that just want to get their hands on a hottie. "Are you good?" and the implied "Do you deserve to dance with me?" definitely not.

Oh, I don't know.

"Are you good?" - could be the girl is worried that he might be a better dancer than her and worry that he would be bored :wink:

"Do you deserve to dance with me?" - could be the girl, again, worrying that what evil/wrong doing has this guy done, to deserve the punishment of dancing with her...

Besides, fair is fair. Guys can and probably ask themselves (at least) if a strange woman asks him to dance. (Please feel free to interpret "strange" as you wish :wink: )

[randomMysh]

Ah, but he didn't say "are you good". He said, "can you dance". I distinctly recall a thread from a while back where a girl was complaing that her local club was full of non-dancers who'd ask girls to dance just so they could grope them. :evil: I consider that a perfectly good reason for caution.
Of course, I wouldn't ask the question. I'd dance with the guy, and if he tried groping me he'd get "accidentally" stepped on...hard...with a heel...as I'm turning away from him and walking off the dance floor...but that's just me. :twisted:

Oh, and the bit about "poor me, I'm not dressed like a salsa dancer, girls assume I can't dance"...uh...why aren't you? Is it really that tough to wear black pants and a nice shirt? Girls obsess for HOURS over what to wear to a dance events, threads go on for pages and pages, (jeans? swirly skirt? hoochie mama pants?). Not to mention makeup, hair, shoes, pedicure, etc. I think we get to at least be surprised when we see a guy who wouldn't put any thought into his appearance.
That said, I was once at a WCS comp (the Palm Beach new year's eve thing) and I was approached by an older gentleman asking if I would "spare a dance for a beginner". So I said sure and danced with him and had a good time and later on I saw him judging! :shock: His name is Carlitos and "I am just a beginner" is his trademark motto.

Anyway. I could go on and on about this article. Some things I can see, and others make no sense to me whatsoever. :nope:

[Pacion]

That said, I was once at a WCS comp (the Palm Beach new year's eve thing) and I was approached by an older gentleman asking if I would "spare a dance for a beginner". So I said sure and danced with him and had a good time and later on I saw him judging! :shock: His name is Carlitos and "I am just a beginner" is his trademark motto.

:lol: Could you imagine how you may have felt if you had thought "I'm to good to dance with you", turned him down and then discovered who he was? :lol:

[randomMysh]

Yes. Yes, I can. :shock:
But mainly I really liked dancing with him. He had a very gentle way of making his partner look and feel really good while doing very simple steps.
On the other hand I have also danced with a "pro" and a "judge" who yanked my arm out trying to make me do a spin I wasn't balanced enough to do. :x So it's all relative.

[Ms_Sunlight]

I obviously didn't pay enough attention during the original article!

:oops: :oops: :oops:

Anyway, I'd rather dance with a bad dancer with a good attitude than someone who thinks he's all that who's rude to me. I suspect some men feel the same.

:D :D :D

[africana]

ok what about guys who hand out the rejection to women who ask?? I haven't gotten any lately, but there a few I still remember. so what's their excuse, PMS? lolol :)
granted i am insatiable...I can go on forever sometimes so it sucks when there are fewer men than women, so I have to ask a lot more

[Jamie]

Well ... I read most (ok, some) of that ...

What's the big deal with rejection anyway? Why take it so personally?

As soon as a girl rejects me, I just smile, genuinely wish her well and send her good vibes etc ... then I don't dwell on it for even a second ... cos I'm too busy spotting my next victim ... err, dance partner, sorry :P

I actually think that it's great being the guy, and the power is with us, we can choose who we ask. That has to be a very positive thing.

Of course, we can't choose if the lady will accept our offer of a dance, but we can choose to be pleasant about the rejection, and smile and give good vibes out.

Being kind, loving and generous, enobles the spirit, it makes you big.

I think what really counts, in life, is the quality of energy you give out, just focus on giving out positivity and love (esp, to people who are unkind and abrupt with you), and don't sweat about what comes back to you ...

All the time and enegy you spend dwelling on the fact that she rejected you, is just a total waste, maybe it's self pity, I dunno. Mind you, there was a time when it would really upset me, but I've just learned that it's much better if I don't take it to heart, and I just give out kindness ...

[cocodrilo]

That's cool, Jamie! Some people, men AND women, take it too personally. Just move on to the next person, and don't sweat it, if you really want to dance!(Welcome to DF, by the way! :wink: )

[SDsalsaguy]

(Welcome to DF, by the way! :wink: )
Huh? :?

[Sagitta]

(Welcome to DF, by the way! :wink: )
Huh? :?

She hasn't had a chance to welcome him yet, of course, since he joined. :doh:

Actually about the attire part I'm not too fussy so I expect the ladies to be equally generous with me. last summer I remember waking up, deciding to go check out the Tuesday night and ariving in flip flops, gym shorts and a gym t-shirt. But I was clean and smelt nice. :wink: :) And I stayed and danced.

I just checked the weather and as it is going to be 46 degrees at night on Friday I probably will have to forgo the flip flops. :( But as soon as I can out go the shoes and sandals is the way to go. Let those feet breath people. Let them breath!!

[SDsalsaguy]

(Welcome to DF, by the way! :wink: )
Huh? :?

She hasn't had a chance to welcome him yet, of course, since he joined.
Since September 18th, 2004? :shock:

[Jamie]

(Welcome to DF, by the way! :wink: )
Huh? :?

She hasn't had a chance to welcome him yet, of course, since he joined.
Since September 18th, 2004? :shock:

Well ... that is true SDsalsaguy ... but ... I haven't visited or posted here for quite a few months ... so thank you very much for the welcome cocodrilo!

:D

[MacMoto]

It's nice to hear from you again Jamie! :D Hope you have been dancing lots and having fun during your absence on DF.


Now off to read the article of the original post... :car:

[Jamie]

It's nice to hear from you again Jamie! :D Hope you have been dancing lots and having fun during your absence on DF.


Now off to read the article of the original post... :car:

Heeyyyy you !!! ... how you doing !? :D :D

Yeah, I've been dancing loads, and totally enjoying it right now.

Just back from the mambocity congress at heathrow infact. I had the most amazing time, wonderful hotel, the most amazing dancers, beautiful women everwhere, the performances were out of this world, and it was just such a fantastic atmosphere.

Thought you might be there !!?

[Twilight_Elena]

Ouch. How bitter. I read this article and I have to say a few things.
First of all, there are ladies who act like that. I remember that once, I used to reject beginners myself. :oops: :oops: :oops: I ought to be hanged, but I was young and clueless and too much of a scared newbie to know better. I'm much better now. :D
Secondly, I don't like the way the author of this article is putting all women in the same category. Not all women size up men like that. When they do, sometimes they do it out of insecurity or because they're new to a scene and pretty much afraid. So please, don't hurry up and say all women are judgemental wenches. :?
The author of this article should also be informed that it is VERY common for women to stumble upon men that ask them to dance when they don't know a thing, or to find a quick shag, or thinking tehy're great dancers and are in fact pretty awful. Women have to put up with men that are players or go around salsa venues to show off, and they have to do so all the time. So please, give us a break. We are cautious because we HAVE to. We are protecting ourselves from all the guys out there with bad intentions, bad (to the point of hurting us) leads and rude beginners.
Sure, there are women out there who are nasty. But there are also men who are nasty, doubly so. So I think most of us would appreciate it if some people would care to do their research right before rushing off to write bitter articles based on their own, obviously limited experience on the salsa scene.
Thank you,

Twilight Elena

[squirrel]

Well, I try never to say no to a man I haven't danced with before. The only "No's" I give are meant for drunks, people I noticed before who dance dangerously or are there for picking up somebody.

Otherwise, I dance with everybody. If a great song comes and I don't feel like dancing with a newbie, I politely make up an excuse and make sure I invite them later! And I never forget!

I remember this funny story: I was expecting a Romanian salsero who lived in Canada, but he never called so we just went to the club. At one point, they were playing a merengue and this guy I had never seen before asks me to dance. I was on my way to the ladies' room so I politely refused and said I'd dance later. He came back after 10 min, also on merengue, and asked me to dance. I accepted and it turned out he was the guy I was expecting! He forgot my phone no. and came to the club hoping to meet me! :)

[pascal]

...
So I think most of us would appreciate it if some people would care to do their research right before rushing off to write bitter articles based on their own, obviously limited experience on the salsa scene.
...
Twilight Elena

So, providing the guy who wrote the article has more salsa experience than you, his article is ok ?

[Sabor]

...
So I think most of us would appreciate it if some people would care to do their research right before rushing off to write bitter articles based on their own, obviously limited experience on the salsa scene.
...
Twilight Elena

So, providing the guy who wrote the article has more salsa experience than you, his article is ok ?

good point pascal..

everyone has their own experience and perception of their surroundings and accordingly opinion.. and taking whatever side of it they like .. it may not mean thats what they ultimately believe .. and they express it.. u can agree or disagree.. without the urge to criticize.. dont assume too much.. its not an arguement.. its discussion.. my 2 cents

so saying.. i dislike being rejected for no reason i can relate to.. even if its once a year.. but, i just simply deal and its temporarily forgotten soon as i start the next dance.. and when/if they ask me on another occasion i will reject them back unless i'm feeling particularly charitable on that day.. if they ask again however, i'll consider ..

yeah, maybe i'm too hooked on payback .. but thats only one of my negatives here.. on the other hand i can only hope my posotives outweigh my minuses by a big margin.. and from my experience so far dance wise.. it does.

[pianoman]

...
So I think most of us would appreciate it if some people would care to do their research right before rushing off to write bitter articles based on their own, obviously limited experience on the salsa scene.
...
Twilight Elena

So, providing the guy who wrote the article has more salsa experience than you, his article is ok ?

That's a bit sarcastic!

but I'm not entirely sympathetic to T.E.'s case here. I agree at least in part with the author of this article...

someone has to ask the other person to dance, that's just how it is - and by convention it is the man. Now, having volunteered to do the job of inviting which someone has to do, one would be entitled to expect the lady to do her part to make our job as easy as possible.

The author's contention is that some (maybe most, depending on your interpretation) women do not - to the contrary, they make life extremely miserable for us. His answer? Screw them! Put them on your DND list! And most importantly - don't let it ruin your night!

The fact that the author chose to express his answer bitterly and generalized all women is undesirable. However, I would still agree with the answer - screw them! Put them on your DND list! And most importantly - don't let it ruin your night!

[delamusica]

And while the general tone was fairly bitter and generalizing, I do have to say that I appreciate what I read to be the point that the lady isn't under any obligation to accept a dance offer, provided that the rejection is given gently and with a smile. That's fair enough, if you ask me.

[hopelessly_addicted]

well, the article does sound bitter, but as Sabor said, this is a forum so we're all free to express our thoughts within the guidelines of the forum...

I would only reject if my salsa friends warned me of certain guys to be sleazy. Also, I would avoid "hi i'm a suspicious middle-aged man with oily hair and gold chains, please dance with me mami" type of guys...

[Jamie]

... However, I would still agree with the answer - screw them! Put them on your DND list! And most importantly - don't let it ruin your night!

I'd screw them too ... bit in a kind and pleasant way with a genuine smile.

:P

[delamusica]

... However, I would still agree with the answer - screw them! Put them on your DND list! And most importantly - don't let it ruin your night!

I'd screw them too ... bit in a kind and pleasant way with a genuine smile.

:P

A man who likes a challenge, I see? :wink:

[Sagitta]

Do whatever takes the least amount of energy on your part. That's what I say. Not worth spending all that time talking and ruminating and getting worked up about these things... :cheers:

[hopelessly_addicted]

I'd have no objection to what the author has written if he said, the one who does the asking/inviting, rather than women/ladies in general. For most night out, 80% I'd say of the dances I do, I'm the one who invite (as you'd notice, pianoman, melb is a very much of a follower heavy scene so if a follower wanted to dance, she gotta grab a lead quick!).

I get my portion of rejection as a follower as well, and so it frustrates me if someone says, followers get dances easier and so they should accept most dances except for the cases where their safety is in jeopardy. Perhaps in other scenes where there are more leads or equal number of leads and followers, but not where I dance.

I hold no grudge against leads who reject unless they do it continuously without any apparent reasons - like this guy who refused to dance with me on 3 separate occasions. The other night, he came up to me, looking to ask, I just avoided him. Indeed, with this guy, I've taken up screw them! Put them on your DND list! attitude! :roll:

[MacMoto]

[Hijack alert!]
Just back from the mambocity congress at heathrow infact. I had the most amazing time, wonderful hotel, the most amazing dancers, beautiful women everwhere, the performances were out of this world, and it was just such a fantastic atmosphere.

Thought you might be there !!?
I was tempted -- but I was skint (just back from the big holiday of the year) and there was a local fundraising event on the same weekend. Glad to hear you had a great time there. 8)
[/Hijack alert!]

Now back to scheduled programming... :wink:

[Lita_rulez]

The more I read on those "rejection" topics, the more I get convinced that the problem is definitly not there.

The problem does not lie in the number of rejections, or the asked/refused ratio, or the smiles (or lack thereoff), or wether you should always say yes, or any other excuse for a reason to be angry and spend the veneing cursing and writing down DND lists.

The problem lies in the way people look at the whole "asking someone to dance" thing.

People, just come back down from wichever cloud you're on (I know I myself tend to favour cloud nine) and consider this for a second : you are proposing a DANCE, not PROPOSING !

If you feel like playing tennis, you ask someone. If he says no, then no tennis. No feeling of rejection involved. Ask someone to go shopping, to go to the movies, to go backpacking in west virginia, or to Disney World and have them say no, there is no rejection involved. They just don't feel like doing it right now.

No big deal here ! Those are all pleasurable activities (except maybe for the west virginia thing) and the most important thing for those to be fun, is to actually want to do them. If you don't feel like it, you decline, and it seems natural. No body even cares !

Yet for some reason, a dance, wich by definition for the dance addict is the ultimate form of pleasurable entertainement and therefor needs to be desired by both parties, should not be refused. And if it is, it is taken as a personal offense, a rejection.

I can understand that systematic refusal is unnerving.
I can understand that being sized up and then said no to can feel like a rejection.

Other than that ?

400 years ago, dancing was a very formal thing, and having someone refuse to dance probably was as bad a slap in the face as it would have been to have a woman pointing her finger at you and laughing while every single one of your peers was watching. But today ? Comme on, let's get real...


.
..
...

OK, I'll take a pill, go chill out in a corner, and let the grown-ups talk now...

[MacMoto]

Okay, I've read the article.

Yes the author sounds bitter, but it sounds like this comes from experience. I think it's good for us women to know how guys feel when faced with rejections, especially if you are not in the habit of doing the asking, i.e., never been on the receiving end.

This conclusion, although I don't like the bitter tone of it, makes sense:
Ok, maybe there are times when it’s ok for ladies to use the power of rejection for evil, I mean, their protection. However, ladies whether you’re mambo diva or a confused beginner; NO still feel the same even to the most advanced dancer. So try your best to smile and be gentle if you’re going to decline someone. I promise we won’t hate you as much.

As for the guys, we need to discover something called a quick recovery! Don’t let the power salsa rejection ruin your night, suck it up and move on to the next dance bro. Just keep your DND and DNA lists handy. Besides you don’t want to miss one of best dances of your life, which could be that very next dance.
In other words, ladies -- if you have to say no, at least be polite; and guys -- don't let rejections get to you. These are two pieces of advice I've seen repeated many times on DF, and they are good advice.

And I wholeheartedly agree with this:
If this doesn’t work, you can always simply ask a guy to dance. Asking a GUY, I know, how degrading!! That’s almost like being desperate or something; however, most guys don’t see it that way, and if they do there’s definitely something wrong with them. If anything, guys are usually shocked, but delighted to see a women step out of the normal process and ask us to dance. Ladies if you find yourself complaining or pouting in the salsa corner because no one is asking you to dance you may want to ask yourself this question; “Is it better to remain upset but not appear to be desperate or should you step away from the norm to have a great time?”
There's NOTHING wrong with asking men to dance, and it really improves your night. Men rarely say no without a reason (and I take the reason given at face value), and I've never had men sizing me up before answering -- so I suppose the author is right that men are more likely to experience rude rejections than women. And the great thing about doing the asking is it gives you control -- it's much easier to avoid drunken non-dancers hitting on you if you are going around doing the asking.

So all in all, some good points here -- shame about the overall tone, which isn't very helpful if the author's intention was to guide/educate rather than vent.

[cocodrilo]

No big deal here ! Those are all pleasurable activities (except maybe for the west virginia thing) [/size]

ha ha ha *SNORT* ha ha ha!

[johnsnjr]

I think the overall tone of the article was a bit bitter. Although the author poses a few good points, unfortunately, his overall tone clouds these few good points. I definitely wasn't feelin' his overall generalization of women but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's a bitter one. People are people, so we should just dance and have fun! :)

J

[vey]

I agree that everybody is entitled to have their own viewpoints but it is an ARTICLE, and IMHO if a person writes an article he should at least TRY to explore the problem in-depth and not just pile up a bunch of descriptions of “real life” situations and then give a mis-directed advice to the “LADIES”.

The article is based on a number of assumptions and generalizations about “LADIES” which I can’t apply to myself or to any of my salsera friends, e.g.:

I still see a lot of ladies not dancing, complaining and pouting in the corners of the clubs. Ladies…do you feel a sense of rejection because no one is asking you to dance? You do.
No, I don’t. I’m not complaining or pouting either, I get plenty of dances and I don’t have to fake singing the lyrics in order to do that :roll: :roll: :roll:
..you can always simply ask a guy to dance. Asking a GUY, I know, how degrading!! That’s almost like being desperate or something;
I do ask guys to dance and I do not find it degrading or desperate

Sizing up a Salsero: This is an all too common act misused by beginners, intermediate and advanced dancers, namely ladies. That’s right I said it, LADIES…
Are you talking to me? I don’t do that and I’ve been dancing for almost two years ( so wherever it puts me in this classification of beginner/intermed/advanced)

And although the author makes his point, for me it gets lost in subjectivism and misdirected frustration. It leaves me confused: am I being criticized and need to explain myself ? or disregard the whole thing since I can’t apply it to myself?

[Sagitta]

Disregard Vey!! I know ladies who do sit in the corners pouting and complaining. I know many who never want to ask etc etc. There are many different types of people. While the article is one-sided it is applicable for some. So, if the shoes does not fit don't try to wear it. :cheers: :)

[Purr]

I've read through this thread, and I think Lita_rulez has the right idea.

[johnsnjr]

Wow vey, that response was just as bitter as the "ARTICLE"

Sounds like you need a huge.....

here you go.

:friend:

J

[vey]

Disregard Vey!! Oh, Sagitta, how rude :shock: :wink: :wink:

So, if the shoes does not fit don't try to wear it. :cheers: :)
I understand what you mean, but that's exactly what bothered me about this article - it was trying to squeeze me into smb else's shoes...

And I can't imagine any seriously addicted salsera sitting and pouting instead of dancing, but that's just me <shrug>

[Sagitta]

Disregard Vey!! Oh, Sagitta, how rude :shock: :wink: :wink:


I meant that you should disregard it my dear. Just being very quick as I am under a lot of pressue at work as I type.

So, if the shoes does not fit don't try to wear it. :cheers: :)
I understand what you mean, but that's exactly what bothered me about this article - it was trying to squeeze me into smb else's shoes...

And I can't imagine any seriously addicted salsera sitting and pouting instead of dancing, but that's just me <shrug>
Or you trying to fit yourself into them. A question of semantics perhaps? Does an article about salseras necessarily imply that the author is saying that you as a salsera also exhibits the same traits? If I read the article the author does not say "all" ladies. He says it is his experience that a "lot" of ladies do this. Plus he does not say that all these ladies are seriously addicted salseras. I didn't say so either. Quite a few of these ladies whom I have seen like salsa, but not enough to get off their butts and ask. In addition some also are from cultural traditions where asking by followers is seriously frowned upon.

But then there are other things that get me all bothered as well, such as poor dance etiquiette (sp?) on the floor. C'est la vie.

[vey]

Wow vey, that response was just as bitter as the "ARTICLE"

Sounds like you need a huge.....

here you go.

:friend:

J

Thanks for the hug, sweety.

Well, may be there's some bitterness because most guys have NO IDEA what a woman has to deal with in a night club (drunks, gropers, dangerous leads who throw you all over the place, guys who're trying to pick you up and do it in a very inconsiderate manner, plus women have to watch their drinks etc etc). All of this DOESN'T JUSTIFY INTENTIONALLY MEAN BEHAVIOUR ON WOMEN'S PART but it does SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT when and whom we choose to dance with, just keep it in mind next time and don't take it personally, after all if I refused to dance with a nice guy, it's my loss....

[vey]

Does an article about salseras necessarily imply that the author is saying that you as a salsera also exhibits the same traits?

The author uses a blanket term "ladies", so it's easy to get confused... :wink:

Ok, I'm going to disregard the whole thing as N/A and walking away dragging my oversized sleepers :wink:

[TemptressToo]

Well...considering Saturday Night Salsa has become my normal activity, I'll chime in.

I don't really thing the writer of this article was bitter. I think he was trying to make a point in a sarcastically humorous way. It sounds a lot like how I write...it reads in a way I understand...but then again, people always take what I write the wrong way. It is simply a matter of a difference in personalities. I am witty, sarcastic and quick to speak by nature.

As for rejection...I have rejected many. All for good reason IMO. I also do not fear asking a guy to dance. Doesn't bother me in the least...however, I usually don't ask total strangers. And yes, it is a jungle out there...if you aren't careful you can be groped, weirded-out, injured or worse...drugged, kidnapped or raped. A girl these days has every right to be picky. Especially in a crowded salsa club.

Case in point, this past Saturday, I had just danced a salsa and 3 merengues in a row. I was sweating like a pig and my feet WERE killing me. I had been sitting just a short while when an individual came and asked me to dance. I politely said no. He started to beg (although I could hardly understand a word slurred out of his mouth). I still refused. At this point, he grabbed me by the arm and attempted to drag me to my feet. I immediately became possessed and ripped my arm away from him. "I said NO...now leave me alone or I will shove that Corona bottle where the sun doesn't shine."

He FINALLY took the hint.

Now boys...if you happen to encounter a girl who has just had something like this happen to her once or maybe several times in an evening, please don't take offense when she seem a bit wary...or even if she gives you the once over or ask you a question like, "can you dance?" She may just be trying to figure out if you are sincere or just some other creep she has to deal with that night.

[aragonh]

Well, may be there's some bitterness because most guys have NO IDEA what a woman has to deal with in a night club (drunks, gropers, dangerous leads who throw you all over the place, guys who're trying to pick you up and do it in a very inconsiderate manner, plus women have to watch their drinks etc etc). All of this DOESN'T JUSTIFY INTENTIONALLY MEAN BEHAVIOUR ON WOMEN'S PART but it does SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT when and whom we choose to dance with, just keep it in mind next time and don't take it personally, after all if I refused to dance with a nice guy, it's my loss....

U know, I didnt know about that until about 3 days ago.

I was out dancing and was just sitting & resting when a friend just dropped into my lap. The she whispered into my ear "Theres a guy followin me. Give him a dirty look to make him go away". SO I did that and the guy walked away. Then my friend went off on a rant of how these "cholos" disrespect her and that shes going to punch them and kick them, etc. etc.

I just listened and weakly nodded. What was I going to say? But it did kinda ruined my evening for a while.

[gte692h]

johnsjnr ;)

that was an interesting article, and i've been through most of what you wrote - but i would be a little more forgiving of women .. there are so many of them !

personally, i'm glad when rejection happens - brings me back down to earth, and gives me a new focus, a new challenge. it's what makes dancing, and women, exciting. the thrill of rejection ;)
life would be pathetic if every woman said, 'Yes'.

what's the point then ?

[johnsnjr]

johnsjr

that was an interesting article, and i've been through most of what you wrote - but i would be a little more forgiving of women .. there are so many of them !

personally, i'm glad when rejection happens - brings me back down to earth, and gives me a new focus, a new challenge. it's what makes dancing, and women, exciting. the thrill of rejection
life would be pathetic if every woman said, 'Yes'.

what's the point then ?

Interesting way to look at this whole rejection thing. Life would suck if there was no challenge. However, if every women always said no, would life be better? I guess a nice medium keeps life balanced. With that said sometimes salsa articles are written about love and passion for salsa, other times articles express the contrary. I appreciate your perspective though.

J
"The official spokesman for myself"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mambo Bliss

As the percussionist taps his clave to rhythm of my favorite song... My eyes slowly follow the crowd, leading my towards that special one;

I'm standing amongst salseros, represented by many lands...But our soulful union was created the instant we begin to touch hands;

Slowly we began to step, as our movements act out a story...Although we didn’t come to perform, I can feel the crowd focusing;

Suffering from a sensation, which causes a bit of nervousness.......Practicing late at night with hopes of conquering this moment;

Dancing out the butterflies, as you spin swiftly thru the air....Executing moves flawlessly, with a bit of style that draws stares;

Making our connection special as these notes pour from within our pores...Overtaken by the bliss of Mambo, as we rhythmically release pains with joy;

Shifting back to a count, as I ponder which way you’ll turn...But the music takes full control, as I execute moves I haven’t learned;

Coming down from our high, as the tempo comes to a close...Although I’m still yearning, I end this one with a dip and pose.

[gte692h]

Interesting way to look at this whole rejection thing. Life would suck if there was no challenge. However, if every women always said no, would life be better? I guess a nice medium keeps life balanced. With that said sometimes salsa articles are written about love and passion for salsa, other times articles express the contrary. I appreciate your perspective though.



absolutely, a medium is necessary. i'm not masochistic enough to enjoy being rejected repeatedly ;)

last weekend, i had walked in to a club, and none of my friends were there, so i was just standing in the corner. I approached one lady, and she very happily said, 'No'. i felt bad for an instant, but then i felt sad for her too, because she gave up the opportunity for a dance. but the next woman i asked said 'yes' and she had the happiest smile on her face. the smile on her face gave me a real thrill, in the context of the prior rejection. That's what I meant when I said, 'rejection brings in a thrill to dance, and women'

so every woman, whether she says yes or no, is making life more fun !

[pianoman]

consider this for a second : you are proposing a DANCE, not PROPOSING !

If you feel like playing tennis, you ask someone. If he says no, then no tennis. No feeling of rejection involved.

I love my tennis, and because i seem to spend less time studying than my friends I am forever trying to organize tennis matches. I get 'rejected' all the time, but it doesn't hurt me.

having given it more thought, i think the tennis analogy is biased

1. I'm calling up a FRIEND to play tennis. If he/she says no, then no tennis. But i've caught up with a friend. we might even go for lunch instead. no hard feelings

most of my rejections in both ballroom and salsa scene are from asking strangers. friends or even acquaintences, i find, will always give you a dance or two - it's only when u ask for a 3rd one that you start exposing yourself for that dreaded "no"

2. There's always a good reason to decline tennis. Sorry, I'm meeting so-and-so... I have to work... need to catch up on my study. And i'll never know if it was just made up.

The only viable 'reason' at a dance is "i'm too tired/i'll sit this one out" etc. The 'are you obligated to then sit out the dance' has been done to death already (I think the answer is no). But when I see you accept your next offer, I know your reason was just made up.

3. When I call my friend to play tennis, it's just me and him. There's nobody else there. Nobody sees me get rejected.

Not so at a dance scene.
In fact, what gives me the most headache is not the rejection: I can handle that. It's what do i do next? Lets say there's 3 follows standing there in close proximity - i randomly pick one say the closest to me and ask her to dance and she declines. Do I pretend as if I'm on my way to the bar or the bath room? Do I ask the person standing next to her? Do I go and find one someone i know to dance with me to 'save face' (that's usually my preferred option... I can only take one rejection at a time)?

The good thing though, like in my ballroom studio - once you know enough people, you never have to ask anyone u don't know again... but that's no fun! At least a friend is always @hand to help me out if I do ask (you don't want to dance with me? Well too bad - my friend does!)

You make a good point - it's not as bad as people make it. You're not on your knees PROPOSING.

But it's a bit worse than your tennis match offer being declined.

It's somewhere in between

[Sagitta]

If someone declines I ask the person next to her and then the next one. I don't care. If they all decline then it is their loss and not mine. It has been rare, so far that I haven't found someone whom I enjoy dancing with. But then I am on my home turf here in CNY. However, I also can really enjoy dancing even with a person who doesn't know a step of salsa, too.

[gte692h]

If someone declines I ask the person next to her and then the next one. I don't care. If they all decline then it is their loss and not mine.

you know what, this is an interesting thing, and perhaps the topic of another thread, but what the hell.. i've realised if i ask one woman in the group and she says no, the others in her group inevitably say no, if I ask them immediately afterward. I don't know why, might be the feeling that they were 'second choice'
The strategy I use is that I divide the salsa club into different zones - usually different sections of the room, ... if i get shot down by one lady in a group, i leave that 'zone' and go to another, where (hopefully) i can ask another girl and get a dance.. sometimes, I'll bring her back to the first zone and rub it in ;)

i wonder if other guys have a similar strategy, or been through something similar.

[Sagitta]

If someone declines I ask the person next to her and then the next one. I don't care. If they all decline then it is their loss and not mine.

you know what, this is an interesting thing, and perhaps the topic of another thread, but what the hell.. i've realised if i ask one woman in the group and she says no, the others in her group inevitably say no, if I ask them immediately afterward. I don't know why, might be the feeling that they were 'second choice'
The strategy I use is that I divide the salsa club into different zones - usually different sections of the room, ... if i get shot down by one lady in a group, i leave that 'zone' and go to another, where (hopefully) i can ask another girl and get a dance.. sometimes, I'll bring her back to the first zone and rub it in ;)

i wonder if other guys have a similar strategy, or been through something similar.

I see. Actually I have had one say no and then the second say yes. I have as good luck getting one person in the group to say yes if the first says no then if the first says yes.

[aragonh]

i wonder if other guys have a similar strategy, or been through something similar.

I used to do that also, but the places I go to are usually small so there are not that many "zones"

In the end, I usually only ask about 1-3 ladies for a song. If i get rejected by all 3 of them, then i just sit out the dance. I watch the dancefloor and see which lady I want to dance with next and position myself to get her for the next dance.

[Sagitta]

hmm...tonight I ask this girl to dance and she hesitates and the says sure. We start dancing and she realises we have different dance styles. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt to her style and then she suddenly stops, says I have to go as my friend is here, runs off to friend and then starts dancing with him!! A person like that!! I had a close look at her and she will never ever get a dance from me.

[chachachacat]

Well ... I read most (ok, some) of that ...

What's the big deal with rejection anyway? Why take it so personally?

As soon as a girl rejects me, I just smile, genuinely wish her well and send her good vibes etc ... then I don't dwell on it for even a second ... cos I'm too busy spotting my next victim ... err, dance partner, sorry :P

I actually think that it's great being the guy, and the power is with us, we can choose who we ask. That has to be a very positive thing.

Of course, we can't choose if the lady will accept our offer of a dance, but we can choose to be pleasant about the rejection, and smile and give good vibes out.

Being kind, loving and generous, enobles the spirit, it makes you big.

I think what really counts, in life, is the quality of energy you give out, just focus on giving out positivity and love (esp, to people who are unkind and abrupt with you), and don't sweat about what comes back to you ...

All the time and enegy you spend dwelling on the fact that she rejected you, is just a total waste, maybe it's self pity, I dunno. Mind you, there was a time when it would really upset me, but I've just learned that it's much better if I don't take it to heart, and I just give out kindness ...
Thank you Jamie! I like your positive slant on this subject!!

Sometimes we really do have to go to the ladies' room, or get some water right NOW, or sit out a song and catch our breath!
I've had this happen just when Mr. Ah! - Visiting Instructor/Dance God, asks me to dance, and then what do I do? Oh, #$@#! Really sorry, because I do try to live by the politeness rules, I really do, but, let's see you say no to Him! Or Her Equivalent.
You know, say Fred Astaire, or Cyd Charisse, or Ron Montez, or MaryAnne Nunez, or Victor (Veyrasset or Fung), or Julia Gorchakova,
or Augusto Schiavo, or... ah, I wax fantastical...

[Ms_Sunlight]

Wel chachachachat, that isn't going to happen to me because I dance with all the grace of a ring-tailed lemur on mogadon. Just in case it does however I'm going to make sure that I always get the drink/rest/pee breaks in before I reach the absolute limit of desperation!

[Twilight_Elena]

...
So I think most of us would appreciate it if some people would care to do their research right before rushing off to write bitter articles based on their own, obviously limited experience on the salsa scene.
...
Twilight Elena

So, providing the guy who wrote the article has more salsa experience than you, his article is ok ?

:? I think I was misunderstood here... I meant that the author of this article must have had pretty traumatic experinece in just one or two clubs. It sounds pretty impossible to me that he has found "evil", as he called them, ladies rejecting salseros at every club out there. So there are scenes that are hostile and others that are the Friendly Fellowship!
I'm really sorry if I sounded bitter and harsh. I was just ticked off by that downright rude hostility against ALL salseras. I suggest that the author of this goes to some of the clubs we have suggested at other threads. There are bad seeds in every scene. Let us not misjudge every salsa dancer just because we've met nasty ones.
And I like your perspective too, Jamie. I hope everyone feels that way.

Twilight Elena

[RugKutta]

After reading all the responses, I think you ladies are taking this article a little too personally. Now before anyone takes what I just said too personally, let the record show I was not generalizing when I said that, I am referring only to the ladies who did take it personally (just to make sure we're clear on that!). Now forgive me if as a guy I seem biased about this, but I don't think that the author was generalizing all women when he wrote this article. Although he did specifically say ladies at one point, he did not say ALL LADIES. Besides, even if he didn't say "ladies," since he was referring to followers, wouldn't we assume ladies anyway? I honestly don't think he was referring to the guys on that one. Also, in reading the article, I agree w/ what was said earlier about the article having a slightly humorous/satirical/sarcastic flavor to it. So some things that may have sounded "bitter" may not have really been that, it was probably said in jest; in a half-joking sort of way. I mean come on now yall, do you REALLY think he meant to call out ALL SALSERAS as being EVIL?!?!?

As was stated earlier, I think some (key word: SOME) of you ladies took this article personally and in turn became bitter yourselves, as was evident in a few responses. In response to that, I again use something that was said earlier: IF THE SHOE DOESN'T FIT, DON'T TRY TO WEAR IT!!! I can understand, however, why this happened. Being a guy, it's easy for me to say something like that because the article was aimed mainly towards women (again I say, the type of women that are described in the article, not all women) and not men. I bet if a lady wrote a similar article about the men in the salsa scene, many of us guys would take offense and try to make the shoe fit even if it was waaaay to small/big, because we feel the need to represent for/defend the guys. EXAMPLE: some years back the group TLC had a song out called "No Scrubs." The ladies obviously were not talking about all men in this song, but most guys, including a younger, less-mature version of myself took offense as if they were. I soon realized that the song did not apply to me because I did not fit the description of the men they were criticizing. In short, I STOPPED TRYING TO MAKE THE SHOE FIT. So ladies (I'm talking to all of you now), if you do not fit the description in the article, there's no need to feel offended or to have to explain yourself or your actions to anyone. We guys appreciate you for saying yes to us and for rejecting us politely when you feel you need to.

On a lighter note, I did learn something about why women say "no."
(Not that I didn't know, I just don't really think about it during a rejection) Indeed, there are alot of sick, perverted, drunk, dangerous guys (I know that's not a complete list, but this response is long enough as it is) that need to be weeded out from the good guys like myself ;-) And yes, no matter how bizzare it may seem to some of us, it is humanly possible for a lady to REALLY be too tired and need to sit out a dance, to have to use the bathroom, to have her feet hurt, or whatever legit reason ladies may have for rejecting an invitation to dance. So guys (including myself), if you get a rejected, don't take it personally; move on and find your next dance and don't let the rejection ruin your night!

El Amor, La Paz, y SALSA

Myron

[cocodrilo]

hmm...tonight I ask this girl to dance and she hesitates and the says sure. We start dancing and she realises we have different dance styles. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt to her style and then she suddenly stops, says I have to go as my friend is here, runs off to friend and then starts dancing with him!! A person like that!! I had a close look at her and she will never ever get a dance from me.
That's TERRIBLE!
:cry:

[Jamie]

hmm...tonight I ask this girl to dance and she hesitates and the says sure. We start dancing and she realises we have different dance styles. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt to her style and then she suddenly stops, says I have to go as my friend is here, runs off to friend and then starts dancing with him!! A person like that!! I had a close look at her and she will never ever get a dance from me.
That's TERRIBLE!
:cry:

OOooooh ... I don't know ... maybe she did Sagitta a favour by running off to dance with someone else ... thus freeing Sagitta up to dance with someone more in tune with his dancing style and hopefully someone with better manners !!!

Leaving mid-dance (without mutual concent) seems plain rude to me ... surely you're much better off without someone like that Sagitta !?

[Vin]

After dancing a few months though, alot of people know 10-20 people of the opposite dance role in the salsa club on any given night. I can easily go a whole night and never dance with someone I don't know.

I normally do ask a couple of people I don't know a night but if a girl is particularly rude to me I will quickly go back to my comfort zone. Not to mention, choose one of my favorite partners to dance with in the vicinity of the rude woman to show her what she's missing :evil: .

[Legato Bluesummers]

Different zones.....

I like that...I will use that strategy from now on...

[Twilight_Elena]

Different zones.....

I like that...I will use that strategy from now on...

Welcome to DF! :D

Twilight Elena

[Sagitta]

hmm...tonight I ask this girl to dance and she hesitates and the says sure. We start dancing and she realises we have different dance styles. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt to her style and then she suddenly stops, says I have to go as my friend is here, runs off to friend and then starts dancing with him!! A person like that!! I had a close look at her and she will never ever get a dance from me.
That's TERRIBLE!
:cry:

OOooooh ... I don't know ... maybe she did Sagitta a favour by running off to dance with someone else ... thus freeing Sagitta up to dance with someone more in tune with his dancing style and hopefully someone with better manners !!!

Leaving mid-dance (without mutual concent) seems plain rude to me ... surely you're much better off without someone like that Sagitta !?

Probably, but I do want to learn how to dance with everyone...so I missed this opportunity...

[cocodrilo]

I think it is challenging and I , too, like to dance with people who have different styles. If everyone danced the same, life on the dance floor would be pretty dull(for ME anyhow...)!

[TheLetterJ]

I agree with a lot of what the original author said, and it only applies to the ladies who do give rude rejections. It definitely doesn't apply to everyone, but everyone should be aware of how their actions affect others, and this article gives a good insight into what guys feel like when rejected. Fortunately I've been in the local scene long enough to not be too bothered by it. (I have a few people on my DNA list, mainly because they were rude to me when I was a beginner) Now I think it's their loss, and I'd be glad to take them off my list if they ask me to dance in the future. My philosophy has always been accept invitations from strangers if they don't show any obvious creepy signs. But feel free to refuse later, that way you're not rejecting on the wrong impression, but rejecting based on dance incompatibility. At least you gave it a try.

Another comment about asking a bunch of followers in a group to dance after the first rejection. I've had a woman friend tell me that she doesn't like it exactly because she feels like she's 'leftover choice'. So I suggest going to a different zone, or wait for the next song before asking someone else nearby.

And of course all rejections can be healed if the follower later asks me to dance. I rarely reject a follower's invitation, but on the rare occasion that I do for whatever reason, I make sure to ask her later.

[brujo]

Never take anything personally and you'll be a happier person, I guess.

I ran into a case recently where the girl actually looked me up and down before saying no. It was the funniest thing I have seen and I couldn't help myself from cracking up to her confused face. Poor girl, she must have missed out on hundreds of good dances because of her crappy attitude...

[tacad]

I don't like the lame excuses. I mean I'm being lied to after all. But maybe guys are so aggressive that "No, thank you." is more trouble than the lame excuse. "No, thank you." doesn't bother me at all. I mean I don't ask every woman to dance. There's no reason why she should have to accept every time she's asked.

[cocodrilo]

I ran into a case recently where the girl actually looked me up and down before saying no.
Wonder what she was lookin' for?! :?

[cocodrilo]

This just got me thinking, because I have thought about it, yet have never done it-
Would you actually refuse to dance with someone because of their appearance? I have refused drunks and horny beasts before, but have never refused someone based on their looks.

[yola]

yes :oops: though not often.
sometimes it happens so fast.. a great song comes up.. i'm looking for a fav. partner.. somebody i don't know and doesn't look like a dancer to me asks me.. i say 'no, thank you'.. and 10 seconds later i realise what i've done... :oops:
Normally i just give it a chance, whether some one looks like a dancer or not.. had some very nice/fun dances that way.

but human minds are just so full of prejudices.. based on experience we divide the world in stereotypes so the mind can decide in a split second whether there is danger or not.. we are genetically set up to decide on first expressions. Part of civilisation is imo learning that first impression is not allways the right one. but when making split second decisions while your conciousness is engaged elsewhere (like i was, looking for a fav. partner) than prejudice takes over...

[johnsnjr]

Initially the Salsa Rejection article http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8875 caught some people off guard. There was some accusation of bitterness on my part and unsolicited attacks on females. However, as I continued to read the replies, I noticed that some people could relate and understood the perspective from which I wrote this article.

Despite the article I still get rejected and still have the dance of a lifetime all in the same night. That's the beauty of salsa. My DNA list change frequently. I wish these lists remained empty, but that wouldn't be realistic reflection.

On another note, I recently experienced two interesting situations on my local scene.

Scenario 1.... I ask a girl to dance, she says yes but makes disguised looks and verbally criticizes me throughout the dance. Ironically she was a beginner to intermediate dancer in the scene. It took everything in me to keep my composure and not give a similar reaction. For this reason.. I keep my distance from her.

Scenario 2... I ask another girl to dance and a separate night, who is (ironically), a good friend of the girl in scenario 1. She gives me the nasty look as says "NO." So, I'm thinking to myself, "hmmm, guess i won't be asking her to dance again in this lifetime" and before I can sit down, she comes up to me and says in a condescending voice and says..."OK, I guess we can dance." I look at her and say, "are you sure?" She says, "let's just dance.. and walks off to the dance floor" so I grab a good friend of mine and walk to the floor and start dancing, leaving this girl empty handed, only for a brief second. Later that night, this individual comes up to me and says, "you know, you are so rude!" This kind of catches me off guard, but I respond and say, "so it's ok for you to reject me(with a nasty attitude), but if I decide I don't want to dance with you...I'm rude." She says.."Yes, because you didn't dance with me out of spite."

Once again.. this post may generate some interesting responses..some may say.."Johnny, she was right, you were rude!".. Others may say.."I feel you bro" and we are all entitled to our opinions. However, that particular night was one of the best salsa night I had in a longtime. I danced til my clothes was soaked!! I could have let either altercation ruin my night... like I would have in my early days, but I moved on and enjoyed my night and danced with people that wanted to dance (no strange attitudes attached).

My point.. both men and women should avoid situations that have potential to ruin your night.

Johnny
www.lavozdelmambo.com

[Sagitta]

This just got me thinking, because I have thought about it, yet have never done it-
Would you actually refuse to dance with someone because of their appearance? I have refused drunks and horny beasts before, but have never refused someone based on their looks.no. I'm like you.

[kfineyouw1n]

Hi, I'm new to this forum, but I absolutely love this article/thread. Reason why I joined this forum :D My general rule is to never say no to any female who asks me to dance, and I expect the same thing from the females, but of course not all females are the same, and some will say no, but I'm sure with good reason. But if I get rejected too many times, I'll just stick to dancing with my salsa click of females haha..

[blueguitar322]

I'm also new to the forums, and to dancing in general. I don't have much experience, so I can't really speak from that...

...but I will say that to guys, performance and ability (in all areas - not just dancing) is absolutely vital to their own self-worth. Being rejecting in something like this always makes you wonder "Am I good enough? Do I have what it takes?" It strikes a powerful chord at the root of who we are as men. The analogy of tennis doesn't really apply; if rejection comes, it's almost always from a friend and almost never has to do with your ability.

I would venture a guess that it's similar to a lady's view of herself...where she is always wondering "am I beautiful? Am I desirable?". You learn early on as a guy that any (negative) honesty in this arena must be coupled with encouragement. E.g. "does this make me look fat?" never gets a "yes" answer, but rather (if you're trying to be honest) "no of course it doesn't make you look fat...but it's not my [favorite piece of clothing] you've picked out." And it's not just physical appearance, I try to use the same sensitivity with any feature that makes her unique, be it personality, job, independence, etc. (though, at least for women I've met, outward beauty is the most sensitive area).

One of the tricks to maturity as a male (and I'm still very much on this journey, only 23) is learning how to accept rejection with humility and not bitterness. While I am quite sympathetic towards the OP, I don't at all agree with his "do not dance" list. Even the "do not ask" list for me would be mostly subconscious, and if they ever asked me, I'd want to respond with as much warmth and energy as I could. A wise man once said "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you".

Just my $0.02.
- Dave

[jhpark]

I'm coming at this from non-salsa social dancing, but I expect it's very much the same thing really.

I think one reason why I take rejection personally is because I've invested a lot of time into my dancing, so to be told that I'm not good enough to dance with really sucks. The reaction is a combination of wanting to get better and various levels of hatred for either the follower who rejected me and/or the leaders who she's willing to dance with. :) That whole dynamic is something I'd like to be rid of, but it's tough.

One of the hard things is just realizing that, since I still have to work and can't devote my whole life to dancing (and I probably wouldn't even if I could), my 1.5 years of dancing won't make me as good a dancer as someone who's been doing it for 5+ years. So of course followers would rather dance with the better dancers. And that's okay -- I'd rather dance with followers who've been dancing more than 5 years too (although, actually, many of my favorite dancers are in the 2-3 year range). But I shouldn't compare myself against the advanced dancers, because it'll be years before I get there and all that bitterness is just gonna kill me if I let it build up. But it's hard to really, truly think in terms of just being as good as I can be and not comparing against how good everyone else is.

I think what bothers me the most are the fake excuses. The 'oh i'm sorry but my knees are tired -- but wait, here's this guy who i love to dance with and i'll say yes to him 10 seconds after i reject you' girls are the ones I truly despise. I'd much rather have her respect me enough to say 'no thank you' and not give a dumb excuse.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'm not a salsa person, either. I go to ballroom socials. Sometimes I go with my husband, sometimes alone. My personal approach is - I will give each person who asks a dance at least once. However, if that person does something I cannot stand, I'll mentally blacklist him and will avoid dancing with him. So far, in all 4 years I've been at this social scene, I had to do this with two guys, just two. They're not complete beginners, mind you, although both are below my level. One is just "messy" and loves to experiment with moves like hammerlock. And another one insisted on squeezing me waay too close in foxtrot. OK, I understand, I have a lot in the upper body area, and he is very old, but too much is too much. So when any of them asks me, I usually take a water break.

[HothouseSalsero]

you know what, this is an interesting thing, and perhaps the topic of another thread, but what the hell.. i've realised if i ask one woman in the group and she says no, the others in her group inevitably say no, if I ask them immediately afterward. I don't know why, might be the feeling that they were 'second choice'
The strategy I use is that I divide the salsa club into different zones - usually different sections of the room, ... if i get shot down by one lady in a group, i leave that 'zone' and go to another, where (hopefully) i can ask another girl and get a dance.. sometimes, I'll bring her back to the first zone and rub it in ;)

i wonder if other guys have a similar strategy, or been through something similar.

I am chuckling to myself. I do some of these things. If I ask one woman in a group and get turned down, I generally won't go down the line and ask the others in the group. I may come back to one of them later, however. I'm not sure why I started doing this. It might have been based on experience, but it also might have been based on reading somewhere that just going down the line tended to project desperation. I think the "second choice" thing is part of the issue, and perhaps also pressure for conformity that might exist within a circle of female friends.

And, yes, if I seem to be getting turned down a lot on one side of the club, I might go to the other side and see what my options are there, and maybe try to make a fresh start.

[jhpark]

I generally have the same rule, where if one in a cluster says no I'll go to another cluster. but once I decided, screw that, and just asked them all -- the second person I asked said no, like the first -- but the third said yes, and we had some lovely dances. So all rules should be broken, always, without fail. :)

[CEB]

I am really glad that my wife and I dance together exclusively. I am not good at dealing with such complicated people issues. Life is hard enough the way it is.

But you give me a lot to think about here. Thank you.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I am really glad that my wife and I dance together exclusively. I am not good at dealing with such complicated people issues. Life is hard enough the way it is.

But you give me a lot to think about here. Thank you.

When we lived in NY, we used to go to dance socials. Sometimes we would come together, sometimes I would come by myself if my husband was away. And people there typically danced with the partner they came in with, or with others in their cluster. They did not reach out to people outside their cluster. So after a couple of times coming to a social by myself and getting maybe a couple of dances over entire evening, I stopped coming alone until we moved to where we are now. I'm glad that around here people are more willing to ask others to dance, even complete strangers.

[quixotedlm]

Something I've been thinking about for a couple of days now, so thought I'd throw it out here and see where it goes.. :)

Jack and Jill know each other from the salsa scene. They are salsaholics, and go to the same dance parties 5-6 times a week. They are both good dancers. On a certain night, every time Jack walked by Jill, their eyes met and they smiled at each other. It was clear that Jack was looking for someone to dance with, and Jill was available. They passed each other several times that night, and even exchanged pleasantries (how are you? i'm fine, thank you!). In each instance, it was obvious from Jill's demeanour, her facial expressions and that tiny glint in her eye, that she would have readily said yes if only Jack had asked. She was even expectant... But Jack never asked. Instead he either sat out the dance, or asked someone else. Did Jack reject Jill?

[quixotedlm]

Susan is a good dancer, and so is Calvin. (Okay, don't digress into definition of 'good'. Assume whatever personal definition you want to assume :))

One of them doesn't show that they are having fun when dancing. Eg, no smiles, little-to-no eye contact, total lack of playfulness and so on.

If Calvin is 'no fun', would it be appropriate for Susan to reject most requests from Calvin? Can she put him in DNA/DND lists and feel justified?

If Susan is 'no fun', would be appropriate for Calvin to put her in DNA list and reject her by implication (see previous Qn. He smiles and says hi, but never asks her to dance even when it is very obvious that they both need a partner for dance just then).

There are no absolute answers here, but just trying to see what everyone thinks. This goes a tad bit into my personal philosophy of life, that any aspect of my life that doesn't directly or indirectly bring me happiness is an expendible. So sometimes I wonder - what's to prevent me from putting about half-a-dozen people in my DNA list just because they don't smile? I don't think I can bring myself to do this, but I still wonder about this hypothetical possibility :) So now you can ponder this question alongwith me!

[Sagitta]

Something I've been thinking about for a couple of days now, so thought I'd throw it out here and see where it goes.. :)

Jack and Jill know each other from the salsa scene. They are salsaholics, and go to the same dance parties 5-6 times a week. They are both good dancers. On a certain night, every time Jack walked by Jill, their eyes met and they smiled at each other. It was clear that Jack was looking for someone to dance with, and Jill was available. They passed each other several times that night, and even exchanged pleasantries (how are you? i'm fine, thank you!). In each instance, it was obvious from Jill's demeanour, her facial expressions and that tiny glint in her eye, that she would have readily said yes if only Jack had asked. She was even expectant... But Jack never asked. Instead he either sat out the dance, or asked someone else. Did Jack reject Jill?Why didn't Jill ask Jack?

[quixotedlm]

Why didn't Jill ask Jack?

Who knows? :)
Maybe because she sensed that Jack wasn't asking her to dance when it was natural and opportune to do so, and thought that it was likely that she would be turned down if she did the asking herself? ;)

[thespina13]

Jill didn't ask Jack because she was sort of intimidated. Fear of rejection both ways. I.. I mean Jill... asked Jav.. I mean, JACK, to finally dance with her after months and months, and even had to pester him and tease him until he acquiesced. When they finally did dance together it was great fun, and they became good friends. Who knows why there was such a barrier before. I know that Jill frequently heard the "I always thought you were too tall for me" confession, but she secretly suspected that was an easy way out of the question.

Currently Jill is having the same problem with Calvin, only she HAS danced with him once before. She was having a very off night, and he hasn't asked her to dance since, even though they smile at each other and say hi. Is this rejection? Should she pester him again and again like Magna might have, until she can easily follow his lead? He's not going to flat-out say no, is he?

As for that article, it sounds indredibly bitter, and very amateur. This person is obviously new to discussing salsa, much less dancing it, and is quite insecure and grouchy. A but more open-minded, humble and patient experience in the scene would do wonders for the author.

[Vibrance]

I agree with Thespina and to be honest I’m amazed there are still women out there willing to dance with strangers – most ladies who’ve spent significant time in the salsa scene will have experienced one or more, or even all of the following.

Drunk lead
Groping lead
Smelly lead
Rough lead
Rude lead
Stalker lead

If you are none of these things and get rejected for spurious reasons, it’s her loss; YOU never have to ask her again. Guys have to pay their dues in the salsa world. It took me six months to ‘break in’ my local club – by that I mean none of the ladies look at me suspiciously when I ask anymore and now I’m frequently asked to dance by them (it was really spooky, almost like they had a collective consciousness; one of the ladies asked me my name after a dance and suddenly it seemed like all of the ladies knew who I was).

Was all the hard work at the start worth it? Hell yes!!
Generally speaking once a guy has established his reputation he can pick and choose – he can dance all night, or carefully plan who he wants to dance with and when. By this point the lady who was rude to you six months ago actively wants to dance with you – but like I said it’s your choice, she may be at the edge of the dance floor, desperate to dance, giving you the ‘ask me, ask me’ eye and you can ignore her and ask someone else (though I would never be so petty). Unless the lady has the confidence to ask, she is not in such a fortunate position, no matter how good she is.

Another counter to the OP is that; if she was SO unpleasant when she rejected you, would you really want to dance with her anyway?

If you don’t look like a salsa dancer you may get a few more rejections than you deserve, sadly appearances matter. But Super Mario is hardly an Adonis (more a slightly nerdy looking, overweight guy with questionable dress sense) – but there are ladies who would chew off their own arm to dance with him. It’s like anything in life, if you are not born with the raw materials you compensate by dressing well or by honing a strong personality (a strong dancing personality).

On average I have maybe two dance requests turned down a night and during the last year I remember only one rejection where I thought she was lying. That one bad rejection stung for a moment, but now I know that if she is sitting down she doesn’t want to dance (most ladies where I go say yes even if they are seated.) Indeed I think she probably had only two or three dances that evening and only with the people at her table – I guess she wasn’t in the mood. This is her choice and I’ve had dances with her since.

Finally what this whole argument boils down to is slightly bitter guys asking “why doesn’t everyone like me” – I don’t know about you, but I had that discussion with my mum when I was 10 or 11 and to my horror discovered that not everyone at school wanted to be my friend.

[Joe]

You never know whether that

Drunk lead
Groping lead
Smelly lead
Rough lead
Rude lead
Stalker lead

is merely a beginner who, with a little seasoning, could turn out to be a fabulous dancer. Blow him off now and when he does turn out that way you could end up on his blacklist.

[Kali Ma]

I agree with Thespina and to be honest I’m amazed there are still women out there willing to dance with strangers – most ladies who’ve spent significant time in the salsa scene will have experienced one or more, or even all of the following.

Drunk lead
Groping lead
Smelly lead
Rough lead
Rude lead
Stalker lead

If you are none of these things and get rejected for spurious reasons, it’s her loss; YOU never have to ask her again. Guys have to pay their dues in the salsa world. It took me six months to ‘break in’ my local club – by that I mean none of the ladies look at me suspiciously when I ask anymore and now I’m frequently asked to dance by them (it was really spooky, almost like they had a collective consciousness; one of the ladies asked me my name after a dance and suddenly it seemed like all of the ladies knew who I was).

Was all the hard work at the start worth it? Hell yes!!
Generally speaking once a guy has established his reputation he can pick and choose – he can dance all night, or carefully plan who he wants to dance with and when. By this point the lady who was rude to you six months ago actively wants to dance with you – but like I said it’s your choice, she may be at the edge of the dance floor, desperate to dance, giving you the ‘ask me, ask me’ eye and you can ignore her and ask someone else (though I would never be so petty). Unless the lady has the confidence to ask, she is not in such a fortunate position, no matter how good she is.

Another counter to the OP is that; if she was SO unpleasant when she rejected you, would you really want to dance with her anyway?

If you don’t look like a salsa dancer you may get a few more rejections than you deserve, sadly appearances matter. But Super Mario is hardly an Adonis (more a slightly nerdy looking, overweight guy with questionable dress sense) – but there are ladies who would chew off their own arm to dance with him. It’s like anything in life, if you are not born with the raw materials you compensate by dressing well or by honing a strong personality (a strong dancing personality).

On average I have maybe two dance requests turned down a night and during the last year I remember only one rejection where I thought she was lying. That one bad rejection stung for a moment, but now I know that if she is sitting down she doesn’t want to dance (most ladies where I go say yes even if they are seated.) Indeed I think she probably had only two or three dances that evening and only with the people at her table – I guess she wasn’t in the mood. This is her choice and I’ve had dances with her since.

Finally what this whole argument boils down to is slightly bitter guys asking “why doesn’t everyone like me” – I don’t know about you, but I had that discussion with my mum when I was 10 or 11 and to my horror discovered that not everyone at school wanted to be my friend.

:applause: Bravo! And *chortle!* at that last bit...:mrgreen:

Welcome to DF, Vibrance!

[quixotedlm]

Currently Jill is having the same problem with Calvin, only she HAS danced with him once before. She was having a very off night, and he hasn't asked her to dance since, even though they smile at each other and say hi. Is this rejection? Should she pester him again and again like Magna might have, until she can easily follow his lead? He's not going to flat-out say no, is he?


thespina's avatar has no smile in it. Did Calvin just put her on his DNA list? ;)

[cornutt]

Susan is a good dancer, and so is Calvin.
OK, first of all, someone here has spent too much time re-reading "I, Robot". ;)
One of them doesn't show that they are having fun when dancing. Eg, no smiles, little-to-no eye contact, total lack of playfulness and so on.
In my experience, 99% of the time, when people don't want to dance, they don't dance. So if someone dancing appears to not be having fun, it's usually for some other reason:
* concentrating on steps, timing, etc.
* intimidated by the higher skill level or reputation of the partner they are dancing with
* not the type of person who likes drawing attention to themselves
* in pain, too tired, or just having an off night
* unaware of their facial expressions while dancing (don't laugh, it happens fairly often)

So I always make it a rule to ask if my partner doesn't appear to be enjoying the dance. If she's feeling ill or some such, I will gladly break off the dance, and leave her be for the rest of the night if she seems to need to be left alone. Or if she does seem to want company, I just might sit down and chat with her a bit. I won't ask for another dance that night. But next week I'll ask her again. Then again, it could be that she's perfectly happy, but for whatever reason her face doesn't show it. That type of partner you just have to have patience with.</p>

[quixotedlm]

OK, first of all, someone here has spent too much time re-reading "I, Robot". ;)

Hey cornutt, did Bill Waterson ripoff Asimov, or did Asimove steal Susan and Calvin from Calvin&Hobbes?

[cornutt]

Hey cornutt, did Bill Waterson ripoff Asimov, or did Asimove steal Susan and Calvin from Calvin&Hobbes?

Wow! I never thought about that, but... although she isn't the main character as such, the story of I, Robot is told through the diary of Dr. Susan Calvin, robopsychologist. The implications, as Calvin would say, are staggering... :shock:

[cornutt]

I thought this was the case, but I had to check on it... I, Robot was first published in 1950, way before Calvin & Hobbes.

[Dancelf]

Hey cornutt, did Bill Waterson ripoff Asimov, or did Asimove steal Susan and Calvin from Calvin&Hobbes?

OK, I'm officially old now.

[quixotedlm]

OK, I'm officially old now.

Because you don't know what the h we are talking about?
Or because you actually do, and you'd read I,Robot when it was first published? ;)

[quixotedlm]

I thought this was the case, but I had to check on it... I, Robot was first published in 1950, way before Calvin & Hobbes.

Actually, I knew the answer. I was merely trying to point out, in a very obtuse manner, that your connection to I,Robot was wrong,and the correct reference should have been to Calvin&Hobbes. Because in I,R, Susan Calvin is the same person. In C&H, Susan and Calvin are a boy and a girl respectively, just like in my hypothetical salsa story. They even eye each other with desire and never make the move ;). Now who's the better geek? Give me your respect or die!

[cornutt]

OK, I'm officially old now.

Join the club! :rolleyes:

[Peaches]

One of them doesn't show that they are having fun when dancing. Eg, no smiles, little-to-no eye contact, total lack of playfulness and so on.



At one place where I dance, there is one teacher who would ask me to dance with some frequency. But I could never figure things out, b/c he always had a completely blank expression. No eye contact. Nice lead, and he would challenge me--probably b/c I'd taken some lessons with him and he likes to push my limits--but not very playful.

Imagine my surprise, then, when after a dance he held me close for a moment (post dip, so not weird) and told me that he really enjoyed dancing with me. I was floored. I thought he was just being polite. So, I asked him about his facial expressions--he said he was just watching the floor around us, and evaluating, and zoning out, and never even realized he was giving off bad vibes. After I asked him about it, though, he began to smile more and get more playful.

[Joe]

Besides, isn't the girl referred to as "Susie" in C&H?

[quixotedlm]

Besides, isn't the girl referred to as "Susie" in C&H?

oh well, it should have been "girl andboy respectively". surely, you are nitpicking? :rolleyes:

[thespina13]

Hmm... no smile in my avatar. I oughtta change that. Although right now maybe I should keep it because no smile is a whole lot prettier than the black eye and cheek laceration I have right now. My face has been salsa-baptized.

[Joe]

oh well, it should have been "girl andboy respectively". surely, you are nitpicking? :rolleyes:
No, because if you're trying to put together a tie between a character named Susan and a character named Susie, there isn't one.

[quixotedlm]

No, because if you're trying to put together a tie between a character named Susan and a character named Susie, there isn't one.

Dick, Dickie, Dickens - oh it's all the same :p

[boshizzle]

Oo, I would dance with a good attitude as well then someone who thinks he's all that as well ^^

[quixotedlm]

will this thread ever end?

[Joe]

Not if you keep adding to it. ;)

[sexydance1]

Having checked the link to the online magazine, it appears that this is also an article from the May 2005 instalment. Therefore, has been moved, like the other one, to the Articles section

[basicarita]

But mainly I really liked dancing with him. He had a very gentle way of making his partner look and feel really good while doing very simple steps.

*sigh* I wish this was a mandatory skill taught in "leader class".

randomMysh, you're from around NYC - where did you say we can find this gentleman? :D

[Sagitta]

Let me tell my story. For the first time in my life I had to eb really rude/mean...

I go to a dance on Friday night in Syracuse. An aquaintance, Joe, who does tango introduces me to his friend..Cory...She asks eme to dance so I do a merengue with her. Then she asks me to do teh next one. I say, "no thanks". I don't danec too many merengues. So she says...ok another dance. Then she says she wants to buy me adrink. I say, "no thanks". She insists, so I agree to a bottle of water. I talk with her a little after that...you no...as she got em a drink. Then a salsa coms on and so I danec with her. Later on...I'm watching some people dance. She gestures to me to dance so I go over to her and say I'm watching people dance so, no. She says that she wants to dance and so I tell her there are plenty of other guys. Then later she comes to me and says she is leaving. I ask her why and she says that she wants to dance and is not getting to do so. I say well, I like watching people dance in addition to dancing and that's what I'm doing. She then says that she is going and would like one last dance. I agree and dance with her. Then she tells me she wants the next song. I said no and just walked away. Creepy, almost spoilt my night. Never had this happen to me before. Never!! Ever!!! In my 7 years or so of dancing.....

Then I walked to the other side of the room and I had some really good dances...so all was not lost... I ended the night on a good night.

[englezul]

Let me tell my story. For the first time in my life I had to eb really rude/mean...

I go to a dance on Friday night in Syracuse. An aquaintance, Joe, who does tango introduces me to his friend..Cory...She asks eme to dance so I do a merengue with her. Then she asks me to do teh next one. I say, "no thanks". I don't danec too many merengues. So she says...ok another dance. Then she says she wants to buy me adrink. I say, "no thanks". She insists, so I agree to a bottle of water. I talk with her a little after that...you no...as she got em a drink. Then a salsa coms on and so I danec with her. Later on...I'm watching some people dance. She gestures to me to dance so I go over to her and say I'm watching people dance so, no. She says that she wants to dance and so I tell her there are plenty of other guys. Then later she comes to me and says she is leaving. I ask her why and she says that she wants to dance and is not getting to do so. I say well, I like watching people dance in addition to dancing and that's what I'm doing. She then says that she is going and would like one last dance. I agree and dance with her. Then she tells me she wants the next song. I said no and just walked away. Creepy, almost spoilt my night. Never had this happen to me before. Never!! Ever!!! In my 7 years or so of dancing.....

Then I walked to the other side of the room and I had some really good dances...so all was not lost... I ended the night on a good night.

You have just met the proverbial princess. All about attention and demands. To put it into perspective imagine the poor bloke who's going to marry her.

[gte692h]

dang, I've been getting shot down lately. I wouldn't have minded some cheap attention

[tj]

It sucks when someone else is ruining your night for you.

Is it possible that she doesn't know the proper etiquette when it comes to dancing? (Yeah, I agree that she might have been interested in you...)

[Andresito]

Was she attractive ?

Let me tell my story. For the first time in my life I had to eb really rude/mean...

[Sagitta]

Was she attractive ?hmmm....for a 50 year old she definitely would be considered "hot"! However, for this 30 year old guy the engine remained cold as no key was inserted into the ignition.

[Joe]

Tmi.

[gte692h]

I am chuckling to myself. I do some of these things. If I ask one woman in a group and get turned down, I generally won't go down the line and ask the others in the group. I may come back to one of them later, however. I'm not sure why I started doing this. It might have been based on experience, but it also might have been based on reading somewhere that just going down the line tended to project desperation. I think the "second choice" thing is part of the issue, and perhaps also pressure for conformity that might exist within a circle of female friends.

And, yes, if I seem to be getting turned down a lot on one side of the club, I might go to the other side and see what my options are there, and maybe try to make a fresh start.

ha! I didn't notice this reply to a post of mine. in '05, I had used the 'zone' approach but I can report that they aren't needed. My overall approach to rejection (and to many guys I am sure) was: ask, get shot down, don't ask again.
The problem with this approach was that life became predictable for me. I have tended to overreact to rejection and then shut ppl out entirely in the scene.

Nowadays, I just have the policy of 'shameless asking'. When I have that smirk on my face, and that grin that gets wider as i get rejected, the girls get curious. They inevitably say yes. Often, I'll go back to girls who've shot me down a couple of times and say, 'hey did I pick on you when we were in middle school ? weren't you the girl with pigtails and braces ? is that why you won't dance with me' or anything silly. Some get even more mad, but what are they gonna do - reject me ? LOL.

the fact is I've seen too many people paint themselves into corners with DNA and DND lists. It destroys the scene - I've experienced that first hand.

[quixotedlm]

the fact is I've seen too many people paint themselves into corners with DNA and DND lists. It destroys the scene - I've experienced that first hand.

I'm not sure that I agree with this. The lists have nothing to do with the scene - just with an individual. It helps us, mostly guys, have more control over our happiness and what constitutes fun for us. The peeps who get put on these lists are likley the ones who are the cancer in the system, but again, that may not be the case.

[noobster]

I'm not sure that I agree with this. The lists have nothing to do with the scene - just with an individual. It helps us, mostly guys, have more control over our happiness and what constitutes fun for us. The peeps who get put on these lists are likley the ones who are the cancer in the system, but again, that may not be the case.

Yeah but if you drag around a list of everyone who was snarky to you when you were a beginner you'll end up denying yourself a lot of really fun dances.

I posted an angsty thread about this on salsaforums, when one of the better leaders who had been less than encouraging to me early on started coming around asking for dances. I had this tit-for-tat idea that I should reject him; but honestly he would never have known why and he is a really fun dancer. I don't think carrying around salsa grudges is productive in terms of getting your own dance on.

[quixotedlm]

Yeah but if you drag around a list of everyone who was snarky to you when you were a beginner you'll end up denying yourself a lot of really fun dances.

I posted an angsty thread about this on salsaforums, when one of the better leaders who had been less than encouraging to me early on started coming around asking for dances. I had this tit-for-tat idea that I should reject him; but honestly he would never have known why and he is a really fun dancer. I don't think carrying around salsa grudges is productive in terms of getting your own dance on.


People get on the lists for different reasons. Simple/graceful rejections will rarely earn you a lifetime membership in anybodys's DND/DNA list.

Meanness or a negative action - deliberate or inadvertent - will likely what give you a permanent spot in the list and then, I think, I might be better off not knowing ever why that person is so much fun to dance with.

[tj]

Regarding these 'lists'... as has been said, one (male or female) has to be careful about having too restrictive of a criteria of who you dance with. If your pool of people that you will dance with starts getting too small, you will be painting yourself into the proverbial corner. There is constant turnover in the salsa scene, and people will trickle in and out of the scene - the result being that your current # of partners will slowly dwindle, and you need to occasionally add more people in order to have enough people to dance with.

This problem is greater if you're in a smaller scene.

[Sagitta]

ok...ok...I'll just leave one person on it. :p

[crysis999]

@ topic

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa??!!

seriously??!!

[Sagitta]

yup. ;-)