Culture clash: Non-dancers in a salsa club...

[vey]

Male non-dancers sitting at the bar, drinking, checking out and trying to pick up girls is an old salsa club phenomena. They can be a nuisance to female dancers but they are great for the club since they buy drinks...

Recently, I’ve started to observe a new pattern of behavior from female “non-salseras” and it becomes more and more pronounced in my salsa scene: groups of women would stand in a circle on a dance floor and do “whatever” during salsa songs.
Well, I guess it’s not new - there always were some girls dancing by themselves in the corner or on the outskirts of the dancefloor but now they occupy a SIZABLE CHUNK of dancefloor leaving even less space for salseros to dance at a crowded nightclub.

Does it happen only in my neck of the woods? Is it common? Is it a developing conspiracy? :shock: :shock: :shock:
How to deal with it?

My take on it is that on one hand these girls pay the same cover fee and buy drinks and, therefore, have a full right to have fun in whichever way they want, but on the other hand the way they dance- oblivious to the surroundings - is DANGEROUS TO THEM AND TO THE NEARBY DANCERS, to me it looks like accidents just asking to happen..

What are your thoughts/ experiences ?

[Chris Stratton]

Would you say this group/solo dancing takes up more or less space per person than couple's salsa?

If it's a more efficient use of space (more dollars per square foot) that may say bad things for partner dance venues.

[Sagitta]

I know what you mean Vey, about not a care to their surroundings. Some of these have come on drunk, drinks sloshing about etc. Horrible. :(

[aragonh]

To me, this usually signifies that the club is no longer a top choice for salseros.

Usually, when the salseros take the floor, most non-salseros stay to the side watching in awe and are usually intimidated by the dancing. They dont want to "dance" next to these "awesome" dancers.

But if there is less and less salseros dancing, then those on the side feel less intimidated and start crowding the dance floor.

Out of curiosity, is this the Rumba club your talkin about?

[vey]

Would you say this group/solo dancing takes up more or less space per person than couple's salsa?


Oh absolutely! At least 3 experienced couples can be comfortably dancing in a space ocuupied by 2-3 girls :cry:

[vey]

I know what you mean Vey, about not a care to their surroundings. Some of these have come on drunk, drinks sloshing about etc. Horrible. :(
Exactly, Sagitta, that's why I called it a "culture clash". We're so used to it we don't realise that salsa clubs have cetain unwritten code of behaviour some of which is just consideration and common sense while other rules can be not evident for a nondancer....

[vey]

Out of curiosity, is this the Rumba club your talkin about?

Hi aragonh, Rumba is no longer a good hang out for salseros on Fri/Sat,

that's exactly what happend - it was taken over by non-dancers...

But I'm talking about other places as well....

[Ms_Sunlight]

You know the answer to this don't you?

Get up there and do some amazing dancing so they stand back in awe!

:D :D :D

I must say I haven't noticed it, but the salsa nights here in Cardiff are very much salsa nights. At one venue you do get men and women coming into the bar to drink but they mostly stay off the dancefloor from what I've seen. More of a menace are awful salsa dancers who haven't cracked the simple (to me) concept of "crowded dancefloor, so dance small."

[gte692h]

Recently, I’ve started to observe a new pattern of behavior from female “non-salseras” and it becomes more and more pronounced in my salsa scene: groups of women would stand in a circle on a dance floor and do “whatever” during salsa songs.


Does it happen only in my neck of the woods? Is it common? Is it a developing conspiracy? :shock: :shock: :shock:
How to deal with it?

What are your thoughts/ experiences ?

i see this a lot in hip hop clubs, and perhaps its the influence of that in the salsa clubs as well. the club i was in this past weekend was like that - live band, but later on, the dj took over, and he played salsa, then reggaeton, hiphop, bachata, everything.. i thought it was fun.

personally, i don't mind seeing a large group of girls dancing 'whatever' - usually, i'll find a few guys who are hanging around, and we go up and ask them all to dance - especially if its a merengue, which doesn't require too much fancy footwork. sometimes girls do that group dancing stuff if a few of their friends are not being asked at all; that way they get to have some fun, and dance a little.

anytime there's a lot of women, i see it as a positive. even if they are not there to dance seriously. better than large groups of, say, .. guys, ;)

[aragonh]

But I'm talking about other places as well....

That sucks. The only consistent place I know in Chicago is the PT every other Sunday

[jon]

Freestyle dancers have been a hazard to partner dancers in blues and country clubs for ages (also line dancers in the country venues, and they're worse in some ways). I'm surprised you haven't had them in the salsa clubs already.

Anyway, they paid the cover fee too, and unless management wants to control what type of dancing happens on the floor, you're stuck with them.

[Ms_Sunlight]

AHEM. Excuse me. Freestyle dancers per se are not a problem. Inconsiderate people who also happen to be freestyling are a problem.

Has it occurred to you that maybe these people either don't know how to go about learning to salsa, or don't feel confident enough to do it with other people? I'll bet for some of them that's the case, and I'd never want to be down on anyone who wants to feel the music and move as long as they are not causing problems for others -- banging into them or whatever.

Please don't let this slide into dance snobbery.

PS I love freestyling -- although I go to dance, indie or R&B clubs to do it.

[cocodrilo]

To me, this usually signifies that the club is no longer a top choice for salseros.

Usually, when the salseros take the floor, most non-salseros stay to the side watching in awe and are usually intimidated by the dancing. They dont want to "dance" next to these "awesome" dancers.


Aragonh has two good points above. At the latin dance parties I host, we welcome beginners and there is always a group of people out there freestyling it! I usually start this group, to get everyone out on the dance floor and loosened up, getting into the latin music, before the lesson starts. (We offer close to an hour of beginner lessons at every party). After the lesson, some people pair up and try to dance together but do you all remember your absolute first time dancing salsa? Did you get it in an hour? I certainly didn't, and it was nice to have friends around me to dance with that first time, and we had a great time anyhow, dancing solo, just moving to the music.

[jon]

Please don't let this slide into dance snobbery.

Mixing freestyle dancers and partner dancers on the same floor is a recipe for accidents, because they don't share the same rules of engagement. I don't know how you derive "snobbery" from what I posted.

[vey]

But I'm talking about other places as well....

That sucks. The only consistent place I know in Chicago is the PT every other Sunday
I've been there only once before it really picked up.
I'd say that Green Dolphin (Tues) & Buzz (Wed ) are very consistent so far.

[aragonh]

I've been there only once before it really picked up.
I'd say that Green Dolphin (Tues) & Buzz (Wed ) are very consistent so far.

I heard the Green Dolphin has an awesome DJ. What do u think of the music?

[vey]

Please don't let this slide into dance snobbery.

Mixing freestyle dancers and partner dancers on the same floor is a recipe for accidents, because they don't share the same rules of engagement. I don't know how you derive "snobbery" from what I posted.

Although cautioning against snobbery might be valid in similar situations, it is not the case on my part and my only concern is safety, I agree with jon that freestyle and such a dynamic dance as salsa on the same dancefloor is dangerous for all sides involved :(

Also, I 'm not sure whether it is true or not but I get an impression that the majority of freestyling people don't realize that salsa dancers spend time, effort and $ in order to dance like that.
Here is a thought - may be it's an excellent marketing opportunity for local dance studios to distribute business cards and class info :!:

[vey]

I've been there only once before it really picked up.
I'd say that Green Dolphin (Tues) & Buzz (Wed ) are very consistent so far.

I heard the Green Dolphin has an awesome DJ. What do u think of the music?
Oh, I think it's the best in town :!:

[africana]

Hey I'm a freestyler sometimes but i'm also a dancer who has spent time and way too much $$ on salsa lessons - I agree with MS_Sunlight, even though I dance mostly partner style, this discussion is sliding into some kind of "snobbery" becuase it doesn't differentiate between careless and spatially aware freestylers
I put snobbery in quotes since I don't agree that parntering is always of a higher quality or priority or even safer than doing shines or freestlying. In fact all accidents & injuries I experienced occured during partnering

I think the discussion should focus on NON-DANCERS who spill drinks, and bump into dancers, rather than looking down the nose at solitary dancers who are minding their own biz and who have equally legitimate need to express the music by dancing solo

thank you.

[cocodrilo]

Africana has a very good point. On occasion, I myself am one of those freestylers, dancing salsa or merengue, when I can't get anyone to dance with me! Yet I respect the dance space of others.

[Guarachero]

Vey:

I think that the only ones who can stop group of girls taking up space are the guys. That’s what we do here. And if they don’t want to dance with guys, we annoy them enough to leave the floor for Salseros. After all, they can’t complaint to the bouncer, because if they don’t want to be asked to dance, they should not be there in the first place. And that’s all we’re doing: asking for a dance.

Guarachero

[cocodrilo]

Where I am, there is like one guy for every 10 women at a latin dance, so when us girls wanna dance, we're out there, partner or no partner! :wink:

[Ms_Sunlight]

I think the discussion should focus on NON-DANCERS who spill drinks, and bump into dancers, rather than looking down the nose at solitary dancers who are minding their own biz and who have equally legitimate need to express the music by dancing solo


Exactly! Salsa is not a travelling dance where you need to have a clear line to progress round the dancefloor, as long as people stay in their own space and show some consideration why should it be a problem?

Freestyling in this context could mean doing salsa footwork / shines on your own or in a group. Would anyone have an issue with that?

[SurfSalsa]

Where I am, there is like one guy for every 10 women at a latin dance, so when us girls wanna dance, we're out there, partner or no partner! :wink:

Sounds like heaven! A visit to Japan is definitely in order - tens of wanting-to-dance salsa partners and "sushi at the source"!!

On a more serious note, concurring with previous posts:
- Wild salsa dancers are much more of a bother, disturbance and danger than the solo dancers - solo dancers normally mind their own business are are often more aware of what's happing around them than the one or two wild salsa cowboys.
- Non-dancers chatting drinking gawking etc on a usually-already-too-small dance floor should be banished!!

[Guarachero]

Where I am, there is like one guy for every 10 women at a latin dance, so when us girls wanna dance, we're out there, partner or no partner! :wink:

Well, in that case some body needs to take an initiative and teach guys so girls don't have to go and have by themseves.

Guarachero

[cocodrilo]

Where I am, there is like one guy for every 10 women at a latin dance, so when us girls wanna dance, we're out there, partner or no partner! :wink:

Well, in that case some body needs to take an initiative and teach guys so girls don't have to go and have by themseves.

Guarachero
We're tryin'! :wink:

[MacMoto]

Recently, I’ve started to observe a new pattern of behavior from female “non-salseras” and it becomes more and more pronounced in my salsa scene: groups of women would stand in a circle on a dance floor and do “whatever” during salsa songs.
Well, I guess it’s not new - there always were some girls dancing by themselves in the corner or on the outskirts of the dancefloor but now they occupy a SIZABLE CHUNK of dancefloor leaving even less space for salseros to dance at a crowded nightclub.

Does it happen only in my neck of the woods? Is it common? Is it a developing conspiracy? :shock: :shock: :shock:
How to deal with it?
It's common certainly at Glasgow clubs (less so in Edinburgh, where the dynamic of the scene's quite different) and not new -- they are called hen parties in my neck of the woods. They come in large groups wearing silly things, buy drinks (good for the bar takings) and make a lot of noise (good for the atmosphere I suppose), form a large circle on the dancefloor and bop with drinks in hand for a while, then leave to another -- probably more mainstream -- club after they've made enough puddles on the floor. Annoying yes, but the reality is that it's the money they drop, not the salsa dancers, that keeps salsa clubs going. How do you deal with it? I don't know -- we just pray that they leave early enough and with minimum mess on the floor.

[Guarachero]

What is really annoying in KAnsas City are those guys who stand on the dance floor interfering with dancers. They are in two, three and up to six. The apparent idea is to create problems when some dancer run into them. They are mainly dressdown Hispanic individuals who can't dance and can't stand non-Hispanics who do. And wearing their cowboy hats and leather vests do nothing but get drunk.

In some places in Miami, it is a nono to stand on the dance floor. It is just not allowed.

Another group that annoys me are those guys who only ask girls who are accompanied by men, without knowng the man. And those who make moves from one girl to the other, and they are usually the ugliest unsophisticated ones that no body wants to talk to.

I recall during the 60s in Cazadores in Havana that those were thrown out, because that was a place to dance and socialize. If the individual was not accepted by others, he had to go.

Guarachero

[vey]

...this discussion is sliding into some kind of "snobbery" becuase it doesn't differentiate between careless and spatially aware freestylers

I think the discussion should focus on NON-DANCERS who spill drinks, and bump into dancers, rather than looking down the nose at solitary dancers who are minding their own biz and who have equally legitimate need to express the music by dancing solo


Africana, NON-DANCERS - that's exactly what I was referring to (hence the title of the thread) and I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear (English is not my first language) why on earth I would be bothered by "spatially aware freestylers" :shock: :?:

And, MacMoto, thanks so much, that's exactly the picture I was trying to paint:
They come in large groups wearing silly things, buy drinks (good for the bar takings) and make a lot of noise (good for the atmosphere I suppose), form a large circle on the dancefloor and bop with drinks in hand for a while

[vey]

What is really annoying in KAnsas City are those guys who stand on the dance floor interfering with dancers. They are in two, three and up to six. The apparent idea is to create problems when some dancer run into them.
you're right, Guarachero, we do have this problem here too :( t's just it usually happends later into the night and I'm gone by that time

[Guarachero]

But I tried something last night, and it worked:

I friendly approached a group of ladies (various ages) and said:
Dialogue---
Ladies, I'm dying for a dance, who is in the mood?

They all started laughing and pointing to one another.

OK, ladies, the music is rolling.

I'll dance, said one, but I don't know how.

That's ok. Do you know how to have fun?

Sure!

That's all you need.
_______________________
I had to leave the area. They started to get in line. They tired me up. I'll do it agin with smaller groups. Not with a group of about five tables. Gosh!

And I picked that behavior up in this forum.

Guarachero

[Salsablaster]

What is really annoying in KAnsas City are those guys who stand on the dance floor interfering with dancers. They are in two, three and up to six. The apparent idea is to create problems when some dancer run into them.
you're right, Guarachero, we do have this problem here too :( t's just it usually happends later into the night and I'm gone by that time

Another thing that bothers me is when you have your own spot dancing, suddenly someone wants to go in and catch your spot, ah ah, that dont work for me either. So my next move is if the club has an stage and if it's availabe then I would dance in the stage. When it's pretty crowded then I would rather to wait a couple of songs when everybody is tired or sweat then I take my next number :)

[Guarachero]

Salsablaster:

You're right on the ball :cheers:

I do the same.

Some times I think that those who do that believe that your spot is enchanted, they just want to look like you. Or maybe they want to take your stage, where you outstanded.

Guarachero

[Sagitta]

What is really annoying in KAnsas City are those guys who stand on the dance floor interfering with dancers. They are in two, three and up to six. The apparent idea is to create problems when some dancer run into them.
you're right, Guarachero, we do have this problem here too :( t's just it usually happends later into the night and I'm gone by that time

Another thing that bothers me is when you have your own spot dancing, suddenly someone wants to go in and catch your spot, ah ah, that dont work for me either. So my next move is if the club has an stage and if it's availabe then I would dance in the stage. When it's pretty crowded then I would rather to wait a couple of songs when everybody is tired or sweat then I take my next number :)
I did the stage tonight. :banana: Lots of space. :D

[leaf]

it's the same over here... they do take up some space and yes, put themselves and others in dangerous position when not watching their space.

When it gets crowded, many simply stand on the dancefloor (to get a better view) which can get really annoying.

And I have not even gone into the problem of people who walk across the dancefloor... even get caught in the midst of a rueda :lol:

[Sabor]

if there intent is to dance and have fun the only way they know how.. then nothing to do but bear it or find another venue

however,

if they're doing it to ruin the fun for who knows what purpose or they're being sarcastic or disconstructive.. or spiteful or whatever inconsiderate mannerism.. then the salsa veterans should band together and take back the space on the floor during the dance .. sort of smother them.. confine them to a certain area.. one of the controversial 'good things' about street salsa experienced dancers is they know how to intentionally take space if they need to in such situations.. and they can dish it better than they take it

[Sagitta]

Yesterday night...this person came up and butted between my friend and I in a middle of a song! She said that I had taught her before and it is true that i had at CG, but poor ettiquitte on her part. I took a clue from my friend. She left and so I danced the rest of the song and then dropped her. My friend, got grabbed by this guy that didn't know how to dance and after the song she came to me and said that she didn't know why she did what she did and that next time that she wouldn't. I simply told her that I let her decide. I wasn't going to do so, but she did. People these days!!

Am I a magnet for rude and inappropriate behavior? :cry:

[Ms_Sunlight]

one of the controversial 'good things' about street salsa experienced dancers is they know how to intentionally take space if they need to in such situations.. and they can dish it better than they take it

True, true. I'd go so far as to say that's true of any experienced street or freestyle dancer actually. Good club freestylers know how to make space without knocking into anyone, they just make it their own and no-one else comes into it.

Of course that won't help if the other people are very drunk or being deliberately obnoxious.

[Sagitta]

one of the controversial 'good things' about street salsa experienced dancers is they know how to intentionally take space if they need to in such situations.. and they can dish it better than they take it

True, true. I'd go so far as to say that's true of any experienced street or freestyle dancer actually. Good club freestylers know how to make space without knocking into anyone, they just make it their own and no-one else comes into it.

Of course that won't help if the other people are very drunk or being deliberately obnoxious.

I can do it if people annoy me. If they are rude I love corwding them out of dancing. :twisted: :)

[Guarachero]

:banana: Saguita that's good that you did the stage :banana:

Last Friday a Cuban brough a 17 minutes raw Muñequitos Rumba mixed up with Guaguancó and Yambú, and we had the stage. But 5 minutes into it, we started dragging people from the circle.

If you're familiar with rooster fights? Street Rumba was done by two men and the expectators would form a circle. It was a way of competition. Neither of us was completely satisfied, because we could not beat eachother.

Guarachero

[Salsablaster]

:cheers: right on Guarachero .

:bkick: and Saguita: you did great on stage, at least you kicked good move :)

[Guarachero]

Thanks :D

Now, some Cubans don't like to see others learn. That's why every place I go I try to teach the best I can. That's what makes the dance fun: when more people do it. My friend and I are committed to teach Rumba as much as we can. And the Salsa organizers are delighted with the idea.

Guarachero