Questions on Pro versus Am and levels of dance

[Summertime]

I have some questions and I couldn't think of a better place to ask them. To give some background info, I have lurked on the forums for some time and I get a little confused with all of the terms being thrown around. I've danced for a little while so I have a general idea but I would like some comprehensive answers, if possible.

In reviewing competition results and videos, I've come across many words that were unfamiliar to me. I have since discovered that a Pro gets money for their dancing, while an Amateur does not. I also understand the difference between Bronze, Silver, and Gold. After that, I begin to get confused. First of all, what is beyond Gold level, if anything? When you see the top competitiors, what level are they generally at?

The reason I ask this is because when browsing through the Ohio Star Ball results, I noticed that under "Adult Amateur Multi-Dance Events" and "Professional Multi-Dances", the categories are listed by what they are dancing, but nowhere do I see a category for level (bronze, silver, etc.). Now I can only guess that Professional multi dances are assumed to be danced at a higher level, but what level do you need to be at to enter an Amatuer event, if any? I've seen videos of "Amateur" events and in the final rounds, many of the dancers look to be just as good as some of the Pros.

One of the reasons I'm so curious about this is because several people have been telling me that I should think about getting an amateur partner and competing in some amateur events. Then I look at these videos, and if the dancers are not seperated by category of level, it makes me wonder what would be the point of entering at my level and competing against these phenomenal dancers. That is why I thought that there must be some minimun requirement to enter an amateur event.

Any answers or responses would be very much appreciated. But, that's only if you can wade through all of my confusion and make some sense of it :)

[Joe]

...and the living is easy. ;)

[Joe]

To partially answer some of the questions, though: if you dig a little deeper, you may see that under the amateur multidance categories you find the levels. It may be something like Novice Bronze, or Prechampionship, etc. What's above Bronze/Silver/Gold? Depends...could be Novice, could be Prechamp, then Championship.

Pros have two levels: Rising Star and Open.

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

[cl5814]

"but what level do you need to be at to enter an Amatuer event, if any?"

Typically, you would start competing at Bronze level and work your way up the levels. You can start competing as soon as you feel comfortable with your competing routine.

[pygmalion]

Hi Summertime. Welcome. :D

[Sagitta]

Hi Summertime. Welcome. :D Ditto. :D

[Purr]

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

:?:

[wyllo]

You have your syllabus levels and your open levels. Syllabus levels are bronze, silver and gold and are restricted to steps that coincide with the syllabus for the style of dance you are doing. The open levels are novice, pre-championship and championship and are in order of increasing skill level. In the open levels you are not restricted to perfroming certain steps and can create your own choreography.

I used to think that the open levels were all higher in skill level than the syllabus levels. But some amateur comps allow dancers to dance in both and end up with silver dancers doing novice as well. I think this is how the USABDA rules are written? This confused me slightly -- anyone know the reasoning for this?

[sunderi]

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

:?:

Yeah, I don't get it either . . . help?

[Stiletto One]

AFAIK, you're allowed to compete above your own "level", since people might have a lot of background in a particular dance but still be working up the rest of the syllabus because they only recently got into Dancesport. Or something.

A couple of people at my school compete several amateur open Latin dances, but otherwise stick to Gold.

[Porfirio Landeros]

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

:?:Amateurs In Name Only, eh?

[DancingMommy]

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

:?:

Yeah, I don't get it either . . . help?

Amateurs In Name Only

[DancingMommy]

Syllabus (Closed events) is a distinct entity from Open.

They are somewhate parallel. It would look like this:

Syllabus: Pre-Bronze ---> Bronze ---> Silver ---> Gold

Open: Novice ---> PreChampionship ---> Championship

In any case, you don't HAVE to compete syllabus before moving to open. We do not dance syllabus, we only dance open. Some people don't dance open until they've done one or two levels of syllabus. Some people dance both simultaneously.

Now, as pertains to "pointing out" of Syllabus events, that's a horse of a different color entirely.

Basically, you are allowed to get a certain number of Proficiency Points (PP) before you MUST mvoe up to the next level. There's a formula for that, but I won't bore anyone with it. Once you "point out" of Gold, you have NOWHERE to go BUT into Open.

[Purr]

And yes, many of the championship amateurs do dance as well as some of the pros. They might as well, since they are AINOs.

:?:Amateurs In Name Only, eh?

Thank you, and DancingMommy, too. :D

[Another Elizabeth]

The other trick that is confusing you is that sometimes the championship level event is just called "Amateur".

[ACtenDance]

From the new USA Dance rule book:

http://dancingwithwolves.org/pics/proficiencies.JPG

That's how it works for USA Dance competitions... not sure how other organizations work, but are probably similar.

[Katarzyna]

From the new USA Dance rule book:

http://dancingwithwolves.org/pics/proficiencies.JPG

That's how it works for USA Dance competitions... not sure how other organizations work, but are probably similar.

Does World Class still exist? I thought it was going to be eliminated?

[Laura]

Hi there Summertime!

I'm going to attempt to make a small correct to DancingMommy's diagram, by trying to re-draw it here as it is shown in the USA Dance rule book:

Bronze-->Silver-->Gold
\
\
v
Pre-Championship-->Championship
^
/
/
Novice


Many competitors start out by working their way through the syllabus, learning and competing in the Bronze level, then Silver, then Gold, then Pre-Championship, etc.

That dangling "Novice" category exists due to some historical differences between the way new competitive dancers were taught and the way competitions were run on the West Coast versus the East Coast. About 10 years ago, there were hardly any syllabus dancers at all on the West Coast, and basicaly no syllabus competitions. So, people started in Novice and worked their way up from there.

When the USA Dance (USABDA) Rulebook was codified, the above diagram resulted as a way to reconcile what was going on in the west with what was going on in the east.

Anyway, the USA Dance rulebook says that couples may enter their current proficiency level, plus the next level higher. Furthermore, if one of those levels is syllabus, then they may also enter Novice. The intent was to put Novice on the same level as all of syllabus, but in truth most people look at Novice as being between Gold and Pre-Champ, even though it's really off to the side as you can see above.

As far as pointing out of Syllabus goes, I have been told that you can't, in fact, point out of Gold. I have not had that confirmed anywhere though and I do not see it in the rule book. I did ask my DanceSport Representative for a clarification on this, I should remind him I still don't have an answer :)

Anyway, because of the registration rule I mentioned, you can have couples dancing:

Bronze, Silver and Novice OR
Silver, Gold, and Novice OR
Gold, Novice, and Pre-Championship OR
Novice and Pre-Championship OR
Pre-Championship and Championship

And of course they can just enter one or two levels, too, no one makes them do two or three if they don't want to.

Now, as for the who gets money argument, that gets very vague the higher you rise in the levels. It used to be that Championship-level amateur dancers who achieved a certain placing at Nationals would be allowed to earn money from their dancing via teaching and/or performing. These rules have recently changed and now anyone can earn money via teaching so long as they pass a certification exam and submit a yearly net income report. There's some other rules in there too but I can't remember them all right now and don't feel like looking them up.

Also, you'll see that sometimes there are events where couples win "Scholarships." These are usually cash (or check) prizes, given to the couples with the understanding that the money will go toward their training expenses. Anyone can win a scholarship and not lose their amateur status.

All that said -- I wholeheartedly endorse trying amateur competition. You won't start at the Championship level, there are competitions that offer syllabus events and events for different age categories. Not as many categories as what you'll see at a Pro/Am competition, but still there is a variety which gives people a way to get into competition and get experience without having to dance at the level you see in the tapes.

[ACtenDance]

Does World Class still exist? I thought it was going to be eliminated?

I saw that the southeast regionals in atlanta will run world class level events. Supposedly, these events will be offered at some competitions after nationals. If you look at the southeast regionals website though... they still don't know what the deal is and don't have any details.

[Laura]

The status of "World Class" is still not solidified. I've heard that it might not really come to exist, but have had no official word on any of this.

[Katarzyna]

Does World Class still exist? I thought it was going to be eliminated?

I saw that the southeast regionals in atlanta will run world class level events. Supposedly, these events will be offered at some competitions after nationals. If you look at the southeast regionals website though... they still don't know what the deal is and don't have any details.

Interesting...

Curious to see what's going to happen with this...

[ACtenDance]

As far as pointing out of Syllabus goes, I have been told that you can't, in fact, point out of Gold. I have not had that confirmed anywhere though and I do not see it in the rule book. I did ask my DanceSport Representative for a clarification on this, I should remind him I still don't have an answer

From what I've been told, you can. I also get that impression based on the new mixed proficiency rules for USA Dance that say that the quasi-pro in the partnership must be placed out of all proficiencies below Pre-Champ.

[Laura]

See, I always thought you could point out of Gold, too, so I was very suprised when my Regional Vice President told me that you couldn't. I asked her to show me where in the rule book it said you couldn't, because I couldn't find anything. Then I decided to double-check with my Regional DanceSport representative, because obviously we all need to be on the same page with this.

It makes sense to me that you can point out of Gold. But the argument I heard on the other side -- from a teacher as well as from the VP -- was that some couples just don't want to ever dance Open and so they should not be forced out of syllabus. When I get a final answer I'll be sure to let everyone know.

Your understanding of the mixed-proficiency stuff is correct: Rule 3.8.3 is clear on this and matches what you say.

We're hosting a sanctioned comp in November, and have been asking about the whole World Class thing, and are still awaiting a solid answer as to if it is really going to happen or not. Whenever I bring it up I'm told that it's still up in the air. Atlanta is the first Regionals after Nationals, and I see they are proceeding on the assumption that what is in the rule book is what will really be happening. I kind of like the World Class idea, so I'll be happy if well enough is left alone...it's just that with two USA Dance national-level officials telling me it's not for sure, I have to wonder.

Ahh, USA Dance. Such confusion at times.

[wyllo]

That dangling "Novice" category exists due to some historical differences between the way new competitive dancers were taught and the way competitions were run on the West Coast versus the East Coast. About 10 years ago, there were hardly any syllabus dancers at all on the West Coast, and basicaly no syllabus competitions. So, people started in Novice and worked their way up from there.



Thank you! That makes a lot of sense for why things are the way they are. :D

[Another Elizabeth]

Rule 4.5.4.8 seems pretty clear that you can place out of gold. I'd be interested to hear where your regional VP got the idea that you couldn't.

No one is forcing anyone to learn open choreography, but it would seem unfair to everyone else to let couples good enough to win gold consistently just sit there and never let anyone else win, just because they don't want to compete in "open". Let them enter open and dance their gold choreography if they want. If I don't want to compete in "silver", can I just sit in bronze and keep acquiring first place ribbons? I don't think so. I don't see why open should be any different.

[Laura]

I totally agree with you, Elizabeth!

[Summertime]

I just jumped on for a second before I have to blast out the door, thinking that I might have one or two replies, if any.. WOW! :) Thank you so much for all of the responses, I will respond more thoroughly when I have some time to sit. It's all starting to make sense, thank goodness! :)

I would like to ask two things - Can you really enter in Amateur Open before you've completed Gold Syllabus? So essentially, anyone who wanted to could put together a routine and enter as an Amateur Novice Open? And then.. you get "points" until you have enough to move to Pre-Champ? I hope I'm not sounding like a complete dufus.

Also, does a Pro have to enter in Rising Star until they have accumulated enough "points" (jeez I hope I'm using the right terminology) to enter as Open? Sometimes I see the same couples dancing in Rising Star and Open so I get a little confused.

[Another Elizabeth]

There are no minimum requirements for entering a competition in the US. You could enter championship at your very first competition if you want - but I wouldn't recommend it.

[DancingMommy]

Unless of course your ego and wallet can withstand the pressure....