A general question for Arthur Murray students

[lynn]

Hi, everyone,

One of my friends has joined the local AMI and is pretty much trying to get me to take classes there. From her descriptions though, I do have a question. It seems as though beginner students are required to take a certain number of classes before they can advance to the next level regardless of their ability (ie, 4 classes in the intro program, 20 in the pre-bronze..etc). While I understand this differs from individual to individual and studio to studio, I would like to get a general idea of how long (or # of classes) did it take for students to move to the next level.

It also seems confusing to me that students have to take an associate bronze program before they can enter the bronze program. It makes sense to have a pre-bronze class, but it's like after you finish pre-bronze, there's yet another pre-bronze for you to complete before you can really get to the bronze program.

Sorry if I'm rambling on and on, I'm not very sure of the franchised studio structures myself....just a whole lot of questions.

[Laura]

I'm not an AM student and never have been one, but I do think it's odd that they say it will take an exact number of classes to get through a certain level. I started at Fred Astaire, and it wasn't like that for me, but that may have been because of who my teacher was and who was running the particular studio I was at. I just took lessons with my teacher and we worked on what my teacher thought we should be working on. Then I took a 3 1/2 year break, then started at an independent studio in another state, and it was the same way: I just kept taking lessons and we progressed at my own rate, my teacher and I would talk from time to time about progress and goals so it's not like we didn't have a plan or anything, it just wasn't laid out and paid for in advance like at some other places.

I took two private lessons per week, and based what level I was "in" on how my competition results were going. I basically spent about two years in Bronze, two in Silver, and two in Gold, which is pretty typical of the Pro/Am dancers in my area. So maybe it all works out the same to the AM program, I really don't know, but 20 lessons for pre-Bronze only works out to a bit over a month the way I came through, so that doesn't sound too slow. How long is "associate bronze?" How long is "full bronze?"

[Purr]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, an AMI student either. However, I think the dancing curriculum should be tailored to the individual student. Whatever the student's interests are and his/her level of expection of how he/she would like to dance, either socially or competitively, should be the foundation of the curriculum. Not everyone wants to learn all dances, or the same style of dance, and not everyone progresses at the same rate.

I'd rather have the student and teacher engage in a meaning dialogue so the student has the best dancing experience possible. I don't think a student should be made to fit into a cookie-cutter program.

[lynn]

Hi, Laura, frankly, i'm not sure about the whole "having to complete so many classes to advance to the next level" business. Maybe it's just their subtle way to tell her she's not improving as fast as other people?? I really don't know, but I think it's a very strange way of teaching.

My friend got through the pre-bronze program in about 5-6 months (averaging 1 class per week, so about 20-24 classes?). I know the full bronze program usually takes about 1-3 years depending on the individual but haven't the slightest clue as to what an "associate bronze" program does and was hoping someone on DF could help me out. I feel like I should just schedule an appointment w/ AM but I'm guessing they probably won't tell me anything in detail (they can't make any promises, obviously) and is likely to stick to something like "we have high qualified teachers to to make sure you're well-trained.

[Katarzyna]

I really don't understand why it takes so long to get through the whole syllabus. Most people I know who are serious about the dancing, are able to get through gold withing 2 years... It just seems that people in the chain studios take for ever to get there.. Not sure I'm right.. correct me if I'm wrong....

I don't like the notion of specific # of classes to get through some level. It is usually such an individual thing...

[lynn]

Wow, 2 years through gold :shock: :shock: ?? That sounds incredibly fast.....

[Katarzyna]

I am talking about people who want to dance seriously and train at least 4-5 days a week..

(not necessarily to finish gold, but get to a solid gold level)

But every time I hear of people who spend years in each level, I just feel very surprised...

[lynn]

I am talking about people who want to dance seriously and train at least 4-5 days a week..

(not necessarily to finish gold, but get to a solid gold level)

But every time I hear of people who spend years in each level, I just feel very surprised...

That makes sense, but unfortunately, no one that I know of has the time or the money to take classes 4-5 days a week, so I guess majority of the people just stretches the whole thing out to a couple of years instead.

[Sunshines Partner]

I am talking about people who want to dance seriously and train at least 4-5 days a week..

(not necessarily to finish gold, but get to a solid gold level)

But every time I hear of people who spend years in each level, I just feel very surprised...

How many lessons a day?

[Katarzyna]

1 private a week.. Maybe one or 2 group lessons a week on top of that and a lot of practice...

I see so much of that on different teams with people that seem to be commited to dancing... When it comes to any other studios, it just seems that people don't get anywhere in years. And I don't understand why. Not sure if it's the instruction or commitment issue. It just seems that the chains promote a really slow progress for the people ????

[Sagitta]

1 private a week.. Maybe one or 2 group lessons a week on top of that and a lot of practice...

I see so much of that on different teams with people that seem to be commited to dancing... When it comes to any other studios, it just seems that people don't get anywhere in years. And I don't understand why. Not sure if it's the instruction or commitment issue. It just seems that the chains promote a really slow progress for the people ????

There are differences between college teams and adults who take dance classes outside of the academic environment. One is cost. It is much easier for me as a college student to get to a higher level then as a working adult. There are often considerable subsidies by the institution. Also there is the issue of people on the team having the same goal, while many come to the dance studio for different resaons and with different priorities. MY 2 cents.

[Katarzyna]

1 private a week.. Maybe one or 2 group lessons a week on top of that and a lot of practice...

I see so much of that on different teams with people that seem to be commited to dancing... When it comes to any other studios, it just seems that people don't get anywhere in years. And I don't understand why. Not sure if it's the instruction or commitment issue. It just seems that the chains promote a really slow progress for the people ????

There are differences between college teams and adults who take dance classes outside of the academic environment. One is cost. It is much easier for me as a college student to get to a higher level then as a working adult. There are often considerable subsidies by the institution. Also there is the issue of people on the team having the same goal, while many come to the dance studio for different resaons and with different priorities. MY 2 cents.

This is certainly true, but I've seen adults at other dance studios who can afford training, really want to improve, but still don't get anywhere... They put the time in etc.. It seems that in such a case it is a problem of training in the given studio, but I am really not sure.. It seems so common...

[standardgirl]

Where I am from, I have heard of the one year per level rule with 1 to 2 privates a week for pro/am students as a general guide.
But this certainly depends on the students and the teachers as well, and it can vary dramatically for different people.

I have been taking 2 privates a week since I started, and practice either by myself or with a partner in addition to that. My teacher told me that I was dancing a solid silver this May, and we were doing really well at comps. It has only been 9 months since I started dancing seriously. (12 months since I started dancing)

I agree with what Katarzya said, but only after moving this summer and seeing all the different things here. It just seems more common here for people to progress faster.

[DanceMentor]

It is great that you have a partner to dance with. That makes learning progress SO much better. And it's cool you are into Standard. Me too. :D

[tendancer]

Well first of all a disclaimer: I'm quite anti-AMI, so take this with that grain of salt. :)

I started at an AMI and have known quite many AMI teachers from 3/4 diff studios, what you're describing is pretty typical of their program. Basically when you walk in the owner and teacher will sit you in a little room, and present you with a contract. AMI lessons don't go by lessons, but "units" which's "1 private, 1 group, 1 'social party'". There's no way to buy private lessons individually though I guess YMMV depending on how willing the studio is to deviate from the corporate paradigm. They'll read it off to you and then present it to you and go "sign here", it's pretty high pressure sales.

The level accordingly go by units. They'll sell you a package. When I started at an AMI, the packwage was 50 units at $75/45min for privates, $45/45min groups, and parties are "free" if you can call 50 units for $5500 before you're allowed to learn anything new "free"...

You don't level up until you agree to buy the next package. It's not really meritocracy based. i.e. the gold ladies at the studio didn't really dance gold, "gold" just meant they have paid $5-6k/level for pre-bronze-> bronze I -> bronze II -> bronze III -> bronze IV -> Silver I -> Silver II -> Gold -> Gold Star -> Gold Bar , or in short "gold' means they've paid somewhere from 40k to 60k to the studio for lessons alone...never mind the competitions ("Superamas") and themed parties, AM "Challenge of Champions" and all that stuff.

If you complain enough and your dancing has reached a level where you're clearly better than other students in the same level and finishing off the package is just a clear waste of your time--because their "rule" is you will not be taught anything higher than your current level-- then they may "promote" you in the middle of a package. So there is some "meritocracy" in that sense. When I did that a couple other guy students who happened to be ~my age and started exactly the same time as me felt humiliated and complained to the owner, so they were "level'ed up" too.

So basically, everybody is supposed to be "happy". If you go to one of their Superams you'll always get a souvenir/trophy, and they'll do their best to break down the heats so there're as few couples in your heat as possible so everyone goes home getting 1st/2nd place. Besides the aforementioned Bronze 1/2/3/4 Silver 1/2 Gold/Gold Star/Gold bar levels, the heats further break down by age A1/A2/A3, B1/B2/B3, C1/C2/C3, teen, preteen etc. The obvious purpose is:

* teachers get to dance with as many of their students as possible at ~$40/dance
* students are in very small heats so they never get cut, can always go back to the studio and said they made finals (as long as on one asks how many couples they danced against)

Yeah this sounds cynical. Anyway, I think AMI does have its place. It's a social club for relatively more well-to-do individuals who want to socialize in a dancing environment and not have to deal with competitive worries such as if your peers are dancing better than you.

For dancers who wish to be competitive however, I believe the AMI program would be a horrendous waste of time and money.


Hi, everyone,

One of my friends has joined the local AMI and is pretty much trying to get me to take classes there. From her descriptions though, I do have a question. It seems as though beginner students are required to take a certain number of classes before they can advance to the next level regardless of their ability (ie, 4 classes in the intro program, 20 in the pre-bronze..etc). While I understand this differs from individual to individual and studio to studio, I would like to get a general idea of how long (or # of classes) did it take for students to move to the next level.

It also seems confusing to me that students have to take an associate bronze program before they can enter the bronze program. It makes sense to have a pre-bronze class, but it's like after you finish pre-bronze, there's yet another pre-bronze for you to complete before you can really get to the bronze program.

Sorry if I'm rambling on and on, I'm not very sure of the franchised studio structures myself....just a whole lot of questions.

[alemana]

excellent post.

[Laura]

Someone I know used to work for a very sales-oriented franchised studio and he told me about the days of selling old ladies "bronze with silver styling" and other nonsense "levels" and "packages" like that.

It's not all like that...but you have to be lucky and aware of what is going on around you. My days at Fred Astaire were very very good. I took lessons for about one month from a six-week-wonder, and then was switched to a teacher who really knew his stuff (and has since gone on to be a Blackpool and World finalist). The studio mangers pretty much just left him alone to teach me what he wanted when he wanted. We did bronze for a little over a year and then we started silver...he moved on to an independent studio and I quit when my lesson contract ran out and moved cross-country.

The one part I didn't like about my franchised days was the sales pressure. Like, I let it slip once that I was happy because I had received a bonus at work that day, and the manager sat me down and actually said "so now that you're flush, how about buying another block of lessons?" I would have bought more lessons anyway, but I didn't like being sat down and talked to like that. Competitions were another weird sales point: the manager would sit me down and tell me how many entries I would enter and what it all cost, including hotel. But I held my ground and would tell him I would drive from home since it was only an hour away and so didn't need a hotel, and that I would only dance X number of entries (about 1/3 of what the manager "suggested"). Invariably he'd say "I'll have to ask the organizers if you can go a la carte." And invariably he'd come back to me and say that my requests were granted, so long as I stayed for the dinner and show each evening. It seems they realized getting some of my money was better than getting none of my money. :)

A friend of mine used to teach at an Arthur Murray and she has good stories about what she was doing there and how the particular franchise she was working at was run, so not all of them are bad. You just need to keep your eyes open and not let yourself be pushed into anything you don't have the pocketbook for.

Personally, I'd start by finding out who the best teachers were in my area and check them all out, and pick a studio based on who can teach me. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that when I was at FA I had to sign the lesson contract, and the lesson contract said that they could switch my teacher on me at any time. They never did, but it was still there in the contract, so if you end up going to a studio like that to study with a particular teacher read the contract carefully and get them to strike the part that says they can swap teachers on you at any time.

[sunderi]

I'm an AMI instructor -- I hope I can help with this. :) First, every AM franchise is run a little differently, so I'm sharing my experience, which may not be the same as yours -- or anyone elses.

Typically, everyone who joins the studio has to enroll in an introductory program of 4 - 12 lessons or so (6 or 10 is the most common number). This is to get beginners introduced to and excited about dancing, and for more experienced dancers, to let their instructor correctly place them in a level for their continued dancing (you'd be amazed at the number of people who come in claiming to be "advanced" or "gold" who are, in fact, not very good).

At my studio, at least, after the introductory program, students can buy anything else they like (Associate Bronze, Full Bronze, Silver, etc.) up to the level of the legal limit for which we can contract future lessons (laws vary by state) -- it's about 110 lessons in VA. We don't say, "It'll be 70 lessons for full bronze" -- we say, "We're approximating that this 70 lesson program, in the dances you're choosing to pursue, will just about get you thorugh the Bronze level of dancing". It's not the same as saying "in 70 lessons, you'll be done with Bronze". It's an approximation based on the number of dances in someone's program, their level of past experience, the detail into which they want to learn the steps in the dances they've chosen, whether they're a single or a couple, etc.

As to the "associate" bronze thing -- AMI divides the Bronze syllabus into two halves, calling the first half "associate". You will be learning real Bronze material in an Associate Bronze program.

A pre-bronze program is what we call (again, in my experience, in my studio) any program of lessons that is not likely to get someone at least to the level of associate bronze. We do this mostly so people understand that if they're only interested in taking 15 lessons, we really can't promise them that they'll get to ANY particular level of dancing in that time.

Again, this is just MY experience at ONE AMI studio. YMMV. :)

[lynn]

Thank you eveyrone for such valuable information. I know every studio (franchise or not) is different that's why I was hoping to get as much info as I can before making any decision.

Tendancer, I'm sorry you had such a poor experience with a studio, but good for you for not giving up! Laua, I think I really need to learn how to say "no"....I have the tendancy to succumb under the high-pressure sales pitch....

[DancingMommy]

Hi, everyone,

One of my friends has joined the local AMI and is pretty much trying to get me to take classes there. From her descriptions though, I do have a question. It seems as though beginner students are required to take a certain number of classes before they can advance to the next level regardless of their ability (ie, 4 classes in the intro program, 20 in the pre-bronze..etc). While I understand this differs from individual to individual and studio to studio, I would like to get a general idea of how long (or # of classes) did it take for students to move to the next level.

It also seems confusing to me that students have to take an associate bronze program before they can enter the bronze program. It makes sense to have a pre-bronze class, but it's like after you finish pre-bronze, there's yet another pre-bronze for you to complete before you can really get to the bronze program.

Sorry if I'm rambling on and on, I'm not very sure of the franchised studio structures myself....just a whole lot of questions.

My experience as an AMI student is thus:

Once I passed the introductory special, I was told that I could enroll in the PreBronze program (a try out time, I guess) of 6 or 10 privates. I think this is just enough information (1st 3 steps in 6 dances) to get the average person hooked or scared enough to leave. After that, I could enroll in any program I wanted. The only limiting factor was how much money I wanted to spend. I couldn't really afford much, so I settled on the Associate Bronze (1st 5 steps in 10 dances) program. they told me that the "average person can achieve Assoc Bronze in 150 lessons, but we've watched you and think you can do it in half the time - 75 lessons". Now that's a load of BULL HOCKEY. Really.

By the time I had 75 lessons (or 50 HOURS) of private instruction, I could have been capable of dancing at least Assoc Silver WELL in 5 dances. In fact, When my husband and I had hit the 50 hours of private instruction mark TOGETHER (which most "studios" will tell you will take you longer to progress because you are only getting an effective "half a lesson") we had surpassed Assoc Silver in International Standard (5 dances). Neither of us had done ANY Standard prior to taking lessons together.

[/end rant]

Back on topic, they have a formula at AMI and they stick with it regardless of the ability of the person walking through the door (IME). At the time I walked in the door, I had more years of dance training under my belt than my teacher. Granted, it was other dance discipline, but still. I was used to using my body and I'm also a really quick study. So to tell me that I needed 75 weeks of private lessons to learn FIVE freaking steps in 10 dances just really pissed me off. Of course, this was after the fact and they kept holding me back and NOT teaching me much. I told my teacher that I could learn anything he could teach in X amount of lessons and I would prove it. Unfortunately I never had the chance due to financial reasons. He really had met his match in me. 8) I remember when Bob Johnson(?) I think that's right came to choreograph our showcase routine, I was dancing circles around the teacher. He couldn't keep up to save his life. I ended up not doing the showcase (with him). I've got war stories, but I'm not gonna bore anyone with them.

Let's just say that I've had enough experience with AMI directors/staff that I wouldn't darken the doors of an AMI studio unless they were PAYING me to be there.

[Sagitta]

I agree. Some are good, some are bad...you need to investigate and see what is in your area. Good luck with that. :cheers: :)

[Kitty]

Wow, 2 years through gold :shock: :shock: ?? That sounds incredibly fast.....

And sometimes I even feel I am progressing too slowly...

I think Katarzyna meant getting through gold in just one style. Yes, I know a number of people who did it in 2 years. I don't know anyone who'd do that in 2 years in more than one style.

Also, this timing is for amateur couples who practice a lot (I did average of 6 hours a week). If you have to pay your teacher every time you want to practice it will probably take a lot more time...

[lynn]

That's true, Kitty. It really helps when you have a steady partner. It gets too expensive when you have to practice with professionals. 6 hours :shock: , hmm, given my incredibly busy schedule, I guess if I can put in 3-4 hrs/week is prety miraculous!

[Kitty]

I am talking about people who want to dance seriously and train at least 4-5 days a week..

(not necessarily to finish gold, but get to a solid gold level)

But every time I hear of people who spend years in each level, I just feel very surprised...

How many lessons a day?

1st year: group class twice a week, and I had no partner. I was still barely bronze at the end of the first year.

2nd year: practice with a partner 6 hours/week, 1 lesson every two weeks, no group classes or any other type of instruction (besides reading DF, watching pros on videos, and talking to dancer-friends).

[pygmalion]

Wow. Good thread. I've never attended AMI. But I have some franchise experience similar to yours, lynn. So many lessons = so much progress. Roughly fifty private lessons per .25 of a level, IIRC. Meaning bronze, silver and gold were each broken down into I,II,III and IV. Each subdivision of each level equaled fifty lessons, no matter how quickly or slowly you took the lessons. No matter how much or little you practiced. Everyone progressed at the same rate, if you normalized by number of lessons taken. (Incidentally, I can see both good and bad things about that system.)

And yep. Laura's right. Not all franchise studios operate that way. 8)

[chachabelle]

I started at AM exactly 2years and 2 months ago. When I filled out my first questionnaire as to what level I wanted to achieve, I indicated I wanted to go as far competitively as I could. I take 9 privates a week, bought in blocks of 100 lessons per contract, at $90/private. I go to all the major AM comps and do well; however, I'm still classified as "Bronze IV" - - as my franchisee has had me working on just technique since I "checked out" of Bronze IV. I've learned one new Silver step in Waltz and one Silver step in Rumba. So figuring cost of lessons, coachings, cost of our Medal Balls, Showcases, costumes and trips, I've spent almost $100,000. My franchisee told me a few weeks ago that the new Silver syllabus just came out and he was so excited because it would take about 500-600 lessons to complete! Exciting for him, I guess, lots of money. Right? I don't regret the money I've spent, as it is something I've always wanted to do and wasn't able to until I got divorced. But am I being taken, or what? I would really like some feedback as I've having major stress over this now. Thanks.

[Sagitta]

To each his/her own chachabelle. With 9 hours a week of classes do you also practice by yourself? And bronze IV for what styles?

[saludas]

I started at AM exactly 2years and 2 months ago. When I filled out my first questionnaire as to what level I wanted to achieve, I indicated I wanted to go as far competitively as I could. I take 9 privates a week, bought in blocks of 100 lessons per contract, at $90/private. I go to all the major AM comps and do well; however, I'm still classified as "Bronze IV" - - as my franchisee has had me working on just technique since I "checked out" of Bronze IV. I've learned one new Silver step in Waltz and one Silver step in Rumba. So figuring cost of lessons, coachings, cost of our Medal Balls, Showcases, costumes and trips, I've spent almost $100,000. My franchisee told me a few weeks ago that the new Silver syllabus just came out and he was so excited because it would take about 500-600 lessons to complete! Exciting for him, I guess, lots of money. Right? I don't regret the money I've spent, as it is something I've always wanted to do and wasn't able to until I got divorced. But am I being taken, or what? I would really like some feedback as I've having major stress over this now. Thanks.

You would be wise to research the many threads in this forum about franchise studios, lesson cost, and progress, as well as the pro-am trap.

BTW, there is no 'new' silver syllabus - unless Arthur Murray has repackaged it for their students. You can find the syllabus online at many locations - and you'll find that with slight changes, there have been no syllabus changes for years.

My immediate suggestion is to look to a true independent studio with ISTD certified instructors to evaluate what you have learned. Then listen to their thoughts as to how to 'fill in' the gaps you may have.

You really spent $50,00 per year on lessons? And you are bronze level - at a franchise studio? PLEASE don't tell me that you are all this and learning Arthur Murray American as well....

[chachabelle]

Yes, it's true. I'm sitting here at my desk looking at my 7contracts for $9,000 each ($11,000 normally I was told - - but a special "discount" for me. Oh, and that doesn't include the 20 lesson contracts for my "routine" lessons.

[Katarzyna]

Wow, that's a lot of money for dancing... I've spent definitely less that $10,000 so far... (ok, more if I include the dresses... )

[lynn]

I suppose the only reason I'm considering franchised studio is because the independent local studios I've talked to (well, the ones with reputable teachers anyways), many do not recommend private lessons for beginners, they just simply do not see the value (obviously, they're not going to say no if I insist, but that's another story).

Pygmalion, thanks for the #'s, at least that gives me something to work with. I honestly don't like to be put into a mold because I consider each student is unique and having a formula for everyone is just not good. So what happens if the student is a natural dancer? Also, does this mean it takes approximately 200 lessons to advance to the next level? How is that comparable to independent studios?? If I can achieve the same result with independent studios (at a cheaper cost), then I really don't see the value of the franchise.

Chachabelle, that's a lot of lesson you've taken in merely two weeks. It's great to hear that you're progressing and doing well in comps. I really don't have the experience to answer your question, perhaps someone with more knowledge can help you with that. One question though, I noticed in your other posting where you mentioned your studio have a la carte selections with privates at $45/hr & $9/group class, are you referring to the same studio? That sounds like an awefully reasonable price though, I've never heard of franchised studios offering only private lessons.

I know franchised studios have incredibly high cost of private lessons (b/c the cost of group classes & practice parties are factored in). I'm willing to pay the cost IF the quality is up to standard (that's a pretty big IF though). After some digging, I'm able to find that for this particular studio, eventhough students have to commit for x number of classes ahead of time, they have the option of prepaying for the whole block or spread it out over the duration of the classes (ie, if you buy 20 classes and take 1 private per week, that equates to approximately 5 months, then the cost is spread over 5 months). It's great for those who do not have large amount of cash on hand.

I understand that everyone has different experiences with franchise studios (some positive, some negative), but that's why DF is so helpful, it lets us share the information so we're more careful in making decisions (esp when $$ is involved!).

Thank you all for your valuable input!

[chachabelle]

Lynn,
I don't think that was me that said they have $45 lessons with $9 group lessons. Our plans always include a "free" group and "free" party for each private. Whether you participate or not. The cost is the same - - you have to buy the privates to get the groups and parties.

[lynn]

Chachabelle, that's what I thought. My apologies for the mistake. I think you should seriously talk to your instructor, don't let them take you for granted. $10,000 is a lot of money and it's great you've made so much progress so far, but telling you that you need to invest at least $5K+ for the next level is a lot to ask for. Sometimes we put all our trust into the instructors, but some of them are business people first than dancers and take advantage of the students. Perhaps you should do what everyone has suggested, ask around and go to other studios and see if you can find something more reasonable.

God luck!

[Laura]

My franchisee told me a few weeks ago that the new Silver syllabus just came out and he was so excited because it would take about 500-600 lessons to complete!

Oh dear...I was taking 2 privates a week for 50 weeks a year, so that is 100 lessons per year. So they're saying it would take you 5+ years (at the rate I was taking lessons) to get through Silver? That just makes no sense to me.

I assume by "new syllabus" they mean for American style? Because if it's for International style the best bet in the US is to go to a teacher that follows the ISTD syllabus -- it's the standard for Standard and Latin. In my opinion other organizations don't really need to go inventing a new syllabus for International style, it just confuses things.

So anyway, in 5 years I took about 500 lessons and learned the entire ISTD standard Syllabus for Standard plus competed in levels starting at Intermediate Bronze and ending in Full Gold. I think I'm pretty average for an adult who does this as a hobby and started in Pro/Am, so that's why to me 500-600 lessons just for Silver seems excessive.

[lynn]

Hi, Laura,

When you first started, did you start as a total beginner? Did you had prior experience?? I had often hear people say Bronze is the most difficult level, once you have passed Bronze, the rest should be smooth sailing, do you think that makes sense??

[Laura]

When I started the second time, my lessons started all over again from the beginning. I had danced ballroom for 1 1/2 years but then took a 3 1/2 year break, so when I came back we just started right at the beginning. I hadn't even social danced during my time off, so I had lost *everything*. When I went to my first competition (after 9 months of lessons) we danced in Intermediate Bronze because I thought it would be unfair of me to do Newcomer since I had danced in three competitions in that 1 1/2 year period the first time I tried ballroom dancing. So we started all over again and I spent about two years in Bronze.

As for "smooth sailing," I don't really see it. No matter how much I learn, no matter how much I achieve, I still feel like there's SO MUCH MORE to learn. It's not like you complete Bronze and suddenly you have all the technique you need and everything else is just learning steps. No, there's always something new to learn, something else to improve, sometimes I feel I know nothing at all. But that's why I love dancing, the continual challenge!

[lynn]

So are you still take lessons? or are you concentrating on competing? or in the teaching field? While in your 5 years or training, how many hours did you practice aside from the lessons? I would like to have any idea of how pros get to where they are (which at the present seems impossible for me to achieve :shock: ).

[Kitty]

I have taken total of about 30 lessons so far (shared with a partner), and I am at the gold level (just started open, but got a foot injury, so my progress is going to be on hold for a while). Once people are in open, they do need a lot more lessons, even in an amateur partnership.

before I ever started taking privates, I took group classes for a year.

I think group classes are important in the beginning and socials are even more important.
It is true that there is some initial challenge for the bronze-level dancers. I think this challenge is the time needed to develop certain mucles and awareness of one's body, building the proper vocabulary, and gaining some expereince with partner dancing. So for a while it just seems like you can't get your body do things, and you can't think about feet alingment and posture and leading (or following) the next figure all at the same time. But you'll get past it if you stick with it. I think the best solution to this initial bronze challenge is to get out there and dance a lot (in practice or socials). Taking a lot of lessons is a very expensive way to get past this initial challenge...


It is hard but possible to dance like the pros (or top amateurs). But if that's your goal, pro-am is probably not the cheapest and fastest way to get there. You'd need to find an amateur partner. Top amateurs who are planning to be pros one day usually practice 10 hours per week with their partner and take 2 lessons per week with best coaches available. that would probably be an overkill in syllabus though, as you need to give your body time to gradually get used to this type of intense training.

[Laura]

Oh, I'm not a pro! Far from it. I'm just someone who started dancing in her 30's for fun, and starting doing competitions because they seemed fun and exciting.

When I was taking 2 Pro/Am lessons per week I was also taking a 1 1/2 hour group class in the Standard syllabus. This class stressed technique. My practice habits varied over the five years. For about the first year I didn't practice at all. Then I started practicing with one of the guys from my group class, and we even partnered up and danced in a couple of competitions. Then we split up and I had no partner for a while, so I spent about for or five months practicing on my own for about seven hours per week. That was all happening around the time that I made the transition from Bronze to Silver. I got burnt out, though, and scaled back and looked for another partner (I was still doing Pro/Am). I then went through a few other partnerships, some in Smooth, some in Standard, and we'd practice about three or four hours a week (that's not very much, but that's all I could get the guys to do). When I was in a partnership, we would take a lesson per week together, and I would still take me 2 Pro/Am lessons. I also kept competing with my teacher as well as dancing in amateur events with these different partners.

Last August I hooked up with K., my amateur Standard partner. We took a group class together and started practicing, and then found a coach and started taking regular lessons. After a month and a half of this I decided I didn't want to do Pro/Am any more. So, after seven years, I quit Pro/Am to concentrate on dancing and competing with K. He and I take one lesson per week and practice between 3-8 hours per week, depending on our schedules. We try to average 5 hours per week. That's not a lot compared to some other competitors, but it's what we can do and we concentrate on making the most of our time. We both love dancing but also have a lot of other things going on in our lives. As K. likes to say "dancing is a big part of my life, but it's not my life." We aren't out to become pros, we're just dancing because we enjoy it. We're not in much of a hurry to get to any particular level, and we're concentrating on improving at our own rate, enjoying the dancing, and protecting ourselves from burn out (something we have both experienced in the past). We've been in a few competitions and have had results that we are satisfied with, so it's all been good so far.

There's all kinds of pros out there, anyone who wants to be a dance pro can be one. All you have to do is say "I'm a pro" and you are one. That's why looking for a dance teacher can be tricky, especially if you're a beginner. It's sad to say, but even an average amateur dancer like me knows more about dancing and dances better than some of the pros out there. But I digress. Being a successful professional competitor is a whole other story. That takes a lot of hard work, a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of money.

[Purr]

Yes, it's true. I'm sitting here at my desk looking at my 7contracts for $9,000 each ($11,000 normally I was told - - but a special "discount" for me. Oh, and that doesn't include the 20 lesson contracts for my "routine" lessons.

Are there any other studios, particularily independent studios, in your area that you could check out? That's an awful lot of money to just be at the bronze level.

[Shannon]

I have to say that the costs for these contracts at the franchise studios flat out shocks me. I have been taking one, sometimes two, private lessons for 2.5 years, probably spending just over $10,000 total on instruction and I'm well into gold syllabus and have even worked with some open level material in both Int Standard and latin. (Granted I still have a lot of work to do but I'm not struggling.) I have only taken with independent instructors at independent studios and it has been a really great experience.

I would get extremely irritated if someone tried to convince me that you have to stay in silver for 100 or more hours, especially 500. :shock:

[DancingMommy]

I started at AM exactly 2years and 2 months ago. When I filled out my first questionnaire as to what level I wanted to achieve, I indicated I wanted to go as far competitively as I could. I take 9 privates a week, bought in blocks of 100 lessons per contract, at $90/private. I go to all the major AM comps and do well; however, I'm still classified as "Bronze IV" - - as my franchisee has had me working on just technique since I "checked out" of Bronze IV. I've learned one new Silver step in Waltz and one Silver step in Rumba. So figuring cost of lessons, coachings, cost of our Medal Balls, Showcases, costumes and trips, I've spent almost $100,000. My franchisee told me a few weeks ago that the new Silver syllabus just came out and he was so excited because it would take about 500-600 lessons to complete! Exciting for him, I guess, lots of money. Right? I don't regret the money I've spent, as it is something I've always wanted to do and wasn't able to until I got divorced. But am I being taken, or what? I would really like some feedback as I've having major stress over this now. Thanks.

IMO, honey, you ARE being taken. :google: Rick Elliott. That's our coach. Former Blackpool Finalist, etc. $75/full 60 minute hour. He was $70 but had to go up a wee bit due to inflation. I was told by a former AMI teacher that "they" will keep working you on technique _forever_ if "they" think they can get more money out of you. Not saying that is the case, but there is NO WAY it should take 600 lessons to check out of Silver. Silver what? 20 dances?

Like you, I don't regret the time and money spent at AMI (and like you I had to wait until I was divorced), but I'm so glad I was able to move on to something better. Not knowing the area of the country you live in, I can't help you with specifics, but if you email my coach at rick@longwoodballroom.com and tell him Nina said you need help finding someone, I'm 100% sure he will try to hook you up with someone reputable. FWIW, Donny Burns _only_ gets $300/hour. IIRC, Bob Powers gets $125. If you aren't getting that level of coaching at $90/hour, I would RUN the other way.

[pygmalion]

I'm short on time now, but I'll chime in with a quick amen! to DancingMommy's comments. Don't regret it, no. Just get the heck out.

And, btw, don't assume that AMI studios are all run that way. From what I've been hearing, they're not. AMI studios are independently operated, so it's the luck of the draw. :? You may get a reputable one, or you may get ... something else.

Good luck with everything. 8)

[DancingMommy]

I suppose the only reason I'm considering franchised studio is because the independent local studios I've talked to (well, the ones with reputable teachers anyways), many do not recommend private lessons for beginners, they just simply do not see the value (obviously, they're not going to say no if I insist, but that's another story).

That is the standard operating procedure in the UK IIRC. I have a booklet published by ISTD called "This Business of Dancing". It recommends having students in a group environment until A) they are comfortable dancing and B) have enough basics to progress. I concur with this sentiment.

If I were you, I would take advantage of as many group classes as possible in the beginning to get a feel for what you like. You may find that what you like watching, you don't like dancing or vice versa.

I know franchised studios have incredibly high cost of private lessons (b/c the cost of group classes & practice parties are factored in). I'm willing to pay the cost IF the quality is up to standard (that's a pretty big IF though). After some digging, I'm able to find that for this particular studio, even though students have to commit for x number of classes ahead of time, they have the option of prepaying for the whole block or spread it out over the duration of the classes (ie, if you buy 20 classes and take 1 private per week, that equates to approximately 5 months, then the cost is spread over 5 months). It's great for those who do not have large amount of cash on hand.

They also have franchise fees and a set amount of advertising they have to do in the case of AMI (as per my confidential source within the company). And a franchisee MUST purchase their (horrifically bad quality - last I saw) super-de-dooper-confidential-eyes-only-self-destructing instructional videos. And all this stuff is what isn't cheap.

Group classes and practice parties are NOT expensive to run. They are mostly run by newer teachers who (last I recall) get paid $6-8USD per hour to be there/teach.[/quote]

I understand that everyone has different experiences with franchise studios (some positive, some negative), but that's why DF is so helpful, it lets us share the information so we're more careful in making decisions (esp when $$ is involved!).

Thank you all for your valuable input!

Not to seem like all sour grapes, but I will say that the lessons I got from the director of the AMI franchise I started at were some of the best basics ever. She was an incredible teacher and if she weren't such a <insert strong term here> and the cost of lessons ($108.65/45 minutes) weren't SO high, I would've stayed there and only taken from her. But life has a way of making things interesting.

[cl5814]

This has become a very interesting thread. Thanks guys and gals for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated.

[DancingMommy]

No problem. :) Some of us have way too much time on our hands. Especially on Tuesday....

[Athena]

I was told that I could pass Bronze in 34 lessons... any tips for making the most out of franchised studios?

[cl5814]

I was told that I could pass Bronze in 34 lessons... any tips for making the most out of franchised studios?

How many dances are you talking about ?

[standardgirl]

by the way.....If you tell AMI that you are not interested because of the price, a lot of time, they will give you a "special." Like lowering the cost per unit, and allow you to purchase the # of units you want instead of a whole package. I guess, they figure, it's better to still get some money from you than to let you out in another studio.......from personal experience.


Aside from that, I started in FA and had a wonderful time there for the first 3 months of dancing. I learned smooth and rhythm. I tok lessons by myself at twice per week plus groups classes and parties. (90 min of privates per weeks, 2 groups per week and one party per week) I learned at least the two third of the bronze syllabus by the time I left the studio in all nine American dances plus hustle, salsa, etc. Just the steps though, I had absolutely no technique, and my posture and frame were non existence. Other than that, I did have a good time with them. NO high pressure selling, or what so ever. And, for social dancing purpose, I learned a lot.

After that, I started taking lesson from an independent instructor. They are still competing in the professional circuit currently, and they are the best standard couple in my area. I also joined the team in my college and take 2 hours of group lessons (1 hr standard, 1 hr latin) each week with the team in additon to 2 hr of private by myself with my teacher.
For the fist 3 months back, I did not have a partner, so I didn’t practice much although I was still dancing 7 hrs or more every week (lessons in addition to social parties).

I was dancing well in bronze in that period. Learned silver steps, but definitly not dancing at silver level.

Later, I had an amateur partner, and we practiced on average 3 hrs a week. We took 2 hrs of group lessons each week together (1 hr std, 1 hr latin), but no privates together. I was however, taking privates by myself with my teacher at twice per week (that’s standard only) since I was dancing pro/am the whole time (I still am dancing pro/am).

I am dancing a solid silver, moving on to gold and novice right now with a new partner for amateur. We practice about 6 hrs a week. For pro/am, I am not sure what we will be entering since we still have almost 4 months till the next comp.

Staying in bronze/silver or whatever for 75 lessons per level just seem way too much, IMO.
But I do know LOTS of people (this is pro/am, especially) who choose to stay and compete in Bronze for like 3, 4 or 5 years. Also know people who have been dancing for 10 years, and are competing in silver/gold pro/am. I guess, it really depends on what you want and what you are looking for.

[pygmalion]

Staying in bronze/silver or whatever for 75 lessons per level just seem way too much, IMO.
But I do know LOTS of people (this is pro/am, especially) who choose to stay and compete in Bronze for like 3, 4 or 5 years. Also know people who have been dancing for 10 years, and are competing in silver/gold pro/am. I guess, it really depends on what you want and what you are looking for.

Agreed, standardgirl. Everybody does have different goals. 8) :D

[alemana]

lynn, if you want private lessons, consider that you can get them outside the structure of whatever studio/group classes you associate yourself with.

studios are good at some things and bad at others. group classes are good for some things and bad for others. same with private lessons. so unless you live in an area where your choices are exceedingly limited, it would behoove you to pick and choose from what's available.

call the independent teachers in your area and take a private with them. continue with your group classes (hopefully in an environment where you are not being scammed.) you'll find your way through this.

[Medira]

I started at AMI in February, just days after I joined DF. I think, if I had read through the threads about the franchise studios before I got involved with one, I probably wouldn't have bothered trying. However, I'm glad I did give it a shot. I seem to have found one of the good ones.

I started ballroom coming from an extensive solo dance background (20 years of ballet, among other styles, being the basis of my experience) so I picked up the footwork quickly. My instructor, though a newer teacher (only been teaching about two years), has spent a lot of time on technique and frame in a number of dances (waltz, tango, foxtrot, swing, rumba, samba, chacha, salsa, hustle and we're now starting on bolero, viennese waltz and west coast swing) as opposed to concentrating heavily on the steps. According to outside observers, it has helped both of us a lot.

The franchisee at the studio tried to put me in a standard program, but after a coaching session with an outside contractor, my program was modified so that, if things go as planned, I will have completed full bronze within the next month and a half. In addition to that, my instructor and I get along really well. Our personalities just seem to match. I've got a really good friend out of the deal...something I would have missed out on had I not tried the franchise experience. I don't regret it at all, but I seem to be one of the luckier ones.

When I was first starting at AMI, I tried the local FADS as well. Of the two, I found that AMI suited me better.

I've paid for enough "units" to carry me through to next spring. I don't know where that will put me with regard to the syllabus, but I figure it will give me a year under my belt and I can decide where I want to go from there.

Even though I'm dancing pro/am at the moment, I'm looking for a competitive, amateur partner. It just seems that finding a good dance partner is harder than finding a good man.

Definitely look around and see what the studios in your area have to offer. Don't rule out the franchise studios either. You might find yourself at one of the good ones. Even within the franchise studio, check out the instructors there. One may suit your style better than the others. I consider myself very lucky though.

[Laura]

But I do know LOTS of people (this is pro/am, especially) who choose to stay and compete in Bronze for like 3, 4 or 5 years. Also know people who have been dancing for 10 years, and are competing in silver/gold pro/am. I guess, it really depends on what you want and what you are looking for.

I think some people stay in the lower levels forever because they want to win and they think if they haven't won on the lower level then they definitely won't win when they move up. Also, I know for sure that some people stay in Silver forever because of the way that Pro/Am comps have been structured: a lot of comps have a Bronze scholarship, a lot have Silver scholarships, and a number have "Closed" scholarships which, interestingly enough, are restricted to just Bronze and Silver. I only know of two competitions that offer Gold scholarships. So, Gold-level dancers who want to dance in scholarships events have to enter the Open-level scholarships. I competed in Gold-level Pro/Am Standard for a couple of years and it was an annoying paradox: there would be basically no dancers in my Gold single-dance events, and then when I'd get to the scholarship where there were more people to dance against they were all the top-level Pro/Ams in the country. I got frustrated and quit because I felt there was no way I could compete against these people, yet I was tired of being uncontested on my own level, but at the same time I was bored with Silver where there were more people. I just felt that even if I was making personal progress (and I was, I could see it on the tapes), I was just tired of dancing in empty ballrooms against another couple or two if I was lucky. And then I was tired of spending the money to enter the Open Scholarships which I wasn't really ready for and getting knocked out in the first round. I really started to doubt myself and was convinced that I was just the suckiest dancer on earth, and nearly quit dancing altogether a few times.

My ultimate solution to all of this was to stop dancing Pro/Am when I was fortunate enough to find the "right" Standard partner for me. I had danced with a number of good amateur guys, but when a partnership is just fundamentally RIGHT you just know it, and after about six years of searching I finally lucked into that kind of partnership. So anyway, we started out dancing Gold syllabus and have recently made the jump to Novice, and plan to be getting our feet into Pre-Champ by the end of the year.

Anyway, part of why I stayed in each Pro/Am level for two years was because I was hoping that more focus on technique without moving up would enable me to improve enough to win some events, but the truth is compared to the other Pro/Ams in my area I'm just competely average. No matter what I did I'd end up in the same place, and when I moved up to the next level to try something new, the people I had been competing against also moved up, so I was right back where I started! And the truth is, when you're only dancing against the same two or three couples all the time it's difficult to get a picture as to where you stand, because I think results against 20 couples are a lot more meaningful than results against one or two couples. Interestingly enough, jumping to amateur has brought me a lot more success, so to me Pro/Am is much more difficult to succeed in than amateur, although some people will insist that it's the other way around.

[lynn]

It just seems that finding a good dance partner is harder than finding a good man.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I totally agree, that's the one thing I find difficult about group lessons. It's hard to figure out the "correct" technique if you don't dance w/ pros or have professional instruction. It's esp hard if you have no one to practice with you aftewards.

Good for your for progressing so fast. I think right now all I'm going to do is checkout the studios around the area (franchise or not). I really don't like big classes. I know a couple of really reputable studios around but the problem is that they have huge group classes (w/ probably 80-100 students per class). Eventho the instructors are absolutely great, it's quite unstructured and cluttered and very chaotic 99% of the times with so many ppl. As DM mentioned in another post, finding a good instructor (and studio) is hard, but i bet the reward would be more than worth the effort. I think in the mean time, i might take up some pilates/yoga class so I can really know how my body works (o.k., that sounds weird, but you know what i mean).

[standardgirl]

Good point Laura. Never thought about the "no gold scholarship" thing in pro/am. I guess, they just assume if you are gold, you "can" manage to dance in open scholarship.

Well, actually, we did thought abuot this a little, but I never thought that this would the reason why some people stay in silver forever. For my pro/am dancing, we are thinking about staying in silver for rest of the year, just so that I can dance closed scholarships. But, at the same time, we are not planning on staying in silver next year, or so, at least, I would like to move up to open scholarship (or just dancing gold and open champiosnship which is less competitive than scholarship) even knowing that I wouldn't get any money in open scholarship for a while. (It's going to be a bit hard though, because my teacher already has someone that he dances open scholarship with....we'll see) Personally, I would rather place in final or semi of open scholarship than placing well closed scholarship since that gives me something to work on. :D

I totally agree with you that competing with only 2, 3 couples are just not exciting or fun. That's why we like to go to ohio star ball, hotlanta, usbdc, etc......where you can get a quarter or a first round if lucky. (well, not in A though, but you get 1st ronds in B and C)

Dancing amateur IS totally different, and I enjoy it a lot.
But it's just really really hard to find a partner when you live in the middle of no where and the majority of the dancers are twice your age, other than the college guys who are just not into competing as much.
When your college has a decent team around the area, and most of the guys either aren't that into it, or "believe" themselves dancing really well and thus don't need any other lessons (privates, especially), things just become really hard. Maybe after graduating, I will move to somewhere else that makes dancing easier! :wink:

[sunderi]

But am I being taken, or what? I would really like some feedback as I've having major stress over this now. Thanks.

My question for you (since I was trying to do the math, and couldn't :wink: ) is how many lessons have you actually had so far? How many dances in your program?

I have found that in addition to extra dances, which will definitely prolong the amount of time it takes to complete a level, preparing for comps and Showcases can slow down your progress as well. Some of the learning you need to progress happens as you go along, but there will be some steps/ideas you'll need to devote some time to in your "down time" between comps (if any).

Were you at Superama in NYC last year? If so, PM me! :)

Oh -- and the new Silver syllabus is pretty cool. :) I am surprised at the number of lessons your franchisee thinks it will take to get through all of Silver . . . I would have guessed closer to 400 if you're doing all 10 dances . . . (but I haven't actually gotten to teach all of that to anyone yet, so I can't say for sure).

[saludas]

I suppose the only reason I'm considering franchised studio is because the independent local studios I've talked to (well, the ones with reputable teachers anyways), many do not recommend private lessons for beginners, they just simply do not see the value (obviously, they're not going to say no if I insist, but that's another story).



Listen to the independent folks!! You will learn basic 'patterns', hear general knowledge, etc in these group lcasses. They are SAVING YOU MONEY AND TIME.

[sunderi]

After some digging, I'm able to find that for this particular studio, eventhough students have to commit for x number of classes ahead of time, they have the option of prepaying for the whole block or spread it out over the duration of the classes (ie, if you buy 20 classes and take 1 private per week, that equates to approximately 5 months, then the cost is spread over 5 months). It's great for those who do not have large amount of cash on hand.

That is how we do it at my studio.

[Kitty]

Oh -- and the new Silver syllabus is pretty cool. :) I am surprised at the number of lessons your franchisee thinks it will take to get through all of Silver . . . I would have guessed closer to 400 if you're doing all 10 dances . . . (but I haven't actually gotten to teach all of that to anyone yet, so I can't say for sure).

400 lessons to get through silver :shock: :shock: :shock: ? I didn't even practice with my partner 400 hours. I maybe practiced 50 hours and took about 10 lessons and I was through silver! Ok, that was only in one style. Double it for two styles.

And what's the point of learning every silver step on syllabus anyway? knowing steps won't make you a better dancer...

[Kitty]

After some digging, I'm able to find that for this particular studio, eventhough students have to commit for x number of classes ahead of time, they have the option of prepaying for the whole block or spread it out over the duration of the classes (ie, if you buy 20 classes and take 1 private per week, that equates to approximately 5 months, then the cost is spread over 5 months). It's great for those who do not have large amount of cash on hand.

and at an independent studio usually you can pay at the time you take a lesson. No contracts and no obligations. Good teachers are confident you are going to come back for more.

[sunderi]

The "new" silver syllabus in AMI is a smooth and rhythm syllabus. (10 dances -- the 9 you would think of plus samba.)

Basically, they went through their old silver syllabus, threw out some steps that were dysfunctional, changed some steps to make them work better (i.e., the component pieces are still whole, but they may teach them with a different entrance or a different exit) and pulled down some of what used to be AMI gold material to make the syllabus more interesting and challenging.

True, it might make it a problem for AMI students competing in independent comps, but there aren't many that do that. Most AMI students (in my experience) are there for social dancing, anyway. Well over 75% of the students in the (large) studio I teach in are in Bronze anyway.

That's another point -- the social aspect in franchise studios. The social atmosphere, the camraderie, etc, is a big draw for people. I haven't spent much time in independent studios, but from my experience (and what I understand from others) franchise studios provide a great atmosphere for socializing along with dancing.

[sunderi]

400 lessons to get through silver :shock: :shock: :shock: ? I didn't even practice with my partner 400 hours. I maybe practiced 50 hours and took about 10 lessons and I was through silver! Ok, that was only in one style. Double it for two styles.

And what's the point of learning every silver step on syllabus anyway? knowing steps won't make you a better dancer...

Well, first, it's not 400 hours -- it's 400 lessons. I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson. So we're talking more like just over 250 hours. The numbers I was quoting were also for someone who does not have a partner to practice with regularly outside of lesson time.

It's not all about learning the steps, either. Associated with the syllabus are the techniques we associate with silver dancing -- you're not just buying the 20 or so steps for each dance that are associated with silver -- you're also buying the instruction of technique associated with silver. That's what takes the time. Learning steps happens quickly. Learning how to dance correctly is where the effort is.

Most students will not even learn EVERY silver step. The average is probably about 75%. We take them through some of the "fundamental" steps that they can expect to see socially (in the studio -- which is where most of them get most of their social dancing in) and through the techniques. Whether or not they insist to learn EVERY silver step is up to them. Some want them all, some don't care.

[Kitty]

that is probably true about socializing. College teams do the same...

but then there is no wonder why people can't get through syllabus in any reasonable amount of time. the system is simply not meant to make them good dancers, it is just meant to entertain them at the price of $90 per lesson.

[sunderi]

and at an independent studio usually you can pay at the time you take a lesson. No contracts and no obligations. Good teachers are confident you are going to come back for more.

Rest assured also, though, that at most franchised studios you are NOT required to pay for any part of the contract you don't complete. In other words, if you take 10 lessons of a 40 lesson contract and quit, you are not obligated to pay for the remaining 30 lessons.

At my studio, students typically pay ahead for one month of lessons at a time. We do offer a discount to students who pre-pay their contract up front. We do not REQUIRE payment for anything other than the lessons taken. Period.

[sunderi]

What is the point of learning every step on the AM silver syllabus?
If the person already knows AM bronze, thats a LOT of steps, enough not to get bored on any party...

They don't have to. We have some students who just stay in Bronze. They continue to refine their technique, and learn to dance better, but have no interest in new steps.

I would say that *most* students are excited by learning new steps. But not all, certainly. They are welcome to just learn technique if they prefer.

[sunderi]

but then there is no wonder why people can't get through syllabus in any reasonable amount of time. the system is simply not meant to make them good dancers, it is just meant to entertain them at the price of $90 per lesson.

The system is absolutely set up to improve them as dancers. We do have some students who seem to just come in to be entertained every week, and we're happy to continue teaching them, as well. But the VAST majority of our students want to get better, and continue to get better as they continue to take lessons. If they didn't improve, they wouldn't stay. No one spends $5,000 (or $500, or $10,000 or $100,000) to learn to dance and continues to pay if they don't feel they've improved (unless they are in that small number who really are just there for entertainment).

I think everyone gets all wrapped up in the way AMI packages their lessons, but the truth is, we are teaching people to dance. They want to learn to dance, and we teach them how. They come in, we teach them steps, we teach them techniques, we teach them to dance socially. Whether we call those steps Bronze or Silver or Purple doesn't seem to be that much of an issue unless the students are interested in independent comps. And of our 300+ students, we have exactly 3 who do that.

[Laura]

I have found that in addition to extra dances, which will definitely prolong the amount of time it takes to complete a level, preparing for comps and Showcases can slow down your progress as well.

In the case of preparing for a comp, I disagree with this this statement. I think it's all a matter of approach. Personally, I see comps as merely a milepost along the way, and not something that I suddenly change my learning approach for. An ex-partner of mine came from one of the two big chains and he told me that the month before a comp his teacher would stop teaching totally and they would just run the routines over and over. He came to realize that was a waste of a month's worth of lesson money because he basically spent three or four months a year just dancing around with his teacher. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but am merely relating this anecdote to illustrate an extreme case of what can happen.

[Laura]

I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson.

Lessons at AMI are only 40 minutes each? For the prices that have been quoted here? Oh my. I assumed they were for an hour. I pay $65 for a full 60-minute hour from someone who was an Open National champion in her style in the past five years. And, on the day I have a private lesson, I can come as early as I like to warm up and practice or stay as late as I like afterwards without having to pay extra floor fees.

Sorry while I'm sitting here being a little aghast. My coach used to teach at AMI years ago, and there's a lot of good that goes on there, but the price for a mere 40 minute lesson makes me shake my head.

[sunderi]

In the case of preparing for a comp, I disagree with this this statement. I think it's all a matter of approach. Personally, I see comps as merely a milepost along the way, and not something that I suddenly change my learning approach for. An ex-partner of mine came from one of the two big chains and he told me that the month before a comp his teacher would stop teaching totally and they would just run the routines over and over. He came to realize that was a waste of a month's worth of lesson money because he basically spent three or four months a year just dancing around with his teacher. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but am merely relating this anecdote to illustrate an extreme case of what can happen.

I have seen this happen. In my experience, it's more often because a student insists on focusing on "the routine" due to nerves before a comp. But I'm sure it does sometimes come from the teacher, as well.

I absolutely agree that competing (and even doing Showcases and such) should *facilitate* improvement in dancing, not hinder it. But for the students who do insist on learning *all* the steps in a syllabus, it can be hard to get both done at the same time. My husband is currently teaching a student like this -- she wants to compete, but she also wants to know EVERY step before going on to the next level. Trying to get both done at the same time is rough, because preparing for a comp is not (in my experience) about learning steps.

So, I would say it's the other way around -- *learning steps* is something that I have to totally change my teaching/learning approach to accomplish as my students progress.

[Laura]

In other words, if you take 10 lessons of a 40 lesson contract and quit, you are not obligated to pay for the remaining 30 lessons.

Are there any cancellation fees? When I was at FA years ago there was a cancellation fee. You could get most of the money paid for lessons not taken back but not all of it. I don't recall what the cancellation penalty was, but for some reason 10% sticks in my head.

[Kitty]

400 lessons to get through silver :shock: :shock: :shock: ? I didn't even practice with my partner 400 hours. I maybe practiced 50 hours and took about 10 lessons and I was through silver! Ok, that was only in one style. Double it for two styles.

And what's the point of learning every silver step on syllabus anyway? knowing steps won't make you a better dancer...

Well, first, it's not 400 hours -- it's 400 lessons. I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson. So we're talking more like just over 250 hours. The numbers I was quoting were also for someone who does not have a partner to practice with regularly outside of lesson time.

It's not all about learning the steps, either. Associated with the syllabus are the techniques we associate with silver dancing -- you're not just buying the 20 or so steps for each dance that are associated with silver -- you're also buying the instruction of technique associated with silver. That's what takes the time. Learning steps happens quickly. Learning how to dance correctly is where the effort is.


I took into account that the person has no partner to practice with. Adding together the lessons I took and the hours I practiced for free with my partner, I spent "on silver" a total of about 60 hours (not counting the 2 comps I went to).

I honestly don't understand what is the "technique associated with silver". I don't think I ever encountered "silver technique" in my lessons. I've been corrected a lot on posture, footwork, frame, aspects of outside partner or promenade position. which one of these is silver? Later in gold I learned something unique to gold: technique of producing the shape in contracheck and oversway. But nothing unique in silver.

[sunderi]

Lessons at AMI are only 40 minutes each? For the prices that have been quoted here? Oh my. I assumed they were for an hour. I pay $65 for a full 60-minute hour from someone who was an Open National champion in her style in the past five years. And, on the day I have a private lesson, I can come as early as I like to warm up and practice or stay as late as I like afterwards without having to pay extra floor fees.

Different things at different studios. I'm not sure that all AMI studios do 40 minute lessons. Mine do, and my "# of lesson" projections are based on that.

Also, at the studio where I teach, our students don't pay any extra fees for warming up or staying late, either, as long as we don't need the space for lessons. (In which case we just kick them out, we don't charge them.)

[standardgirl]

Well, after reading all these posts, there is one thing that I would like to say. Whether a person thinks he/she has improved doesn't really say much. Well, it says "something," but really nothing.

When I danced at FA (I had a wonderful time, still like the teachers, still say hi when we meet at comps, etc......), I thought I was dancing really well and have improved a lot. Well, yeah, I have improved by the end of the 3 months compared to when I first started. I knew steps and could "follow" vs I knew nothing before. Guys liked to dance with me at the FA socials b/c I was one of the "better" dancers.
This was all just simply because everyone else was even worse, not because I was any good dancer. Thinking back, I was horrible then...... :wink:

I am not saying there is no good dancer from AM. In fact, a friend of mine started there and still takes lessons at AM, and he is an amazing social dancer, and he is a lot of fun to dance with.

People pay big money and come back because they think they have learned something, and they have improved. But a lot of them have just never seen the world outside of their studio......

One other thing, there IS something about AM or FA that most indept studio don't seem to have. The FRIENDLYNESS and the GREAT ATMOSPHERE at those franchised studio is just wonderful!
I went to an AM party here a few weeks ago because I know a teacher there. Everyone was sooooo nice, not just the owner or the teachers, but the students as well! It's amazing!
I can definitely image people willing to pay extra for the social atmosphere they get.

**funny thing......
I used to feel so good when people tell me that I dance well or that I dance great. (and I actually believed it, until I started in the independent studio, and started competing) Now, I still get comments like that from time to time, but I don't fall for it anymore (unless it's from someone special). I know how good/bad my dancing is for the most part. Better than some people, a lot worse than others. It just all depends on to whom you are comparing yourself to. :D If we want, we could all be happy in a way! :D

[cl5814]

it is just meant to entertain them at the price of $90 per lesson.

I like your word choice of entertain. I admit i have also been an "entertained" student, which once i realized what was happening, i stopped lessons with that individual for several reasons.

[DancingMommy]

The "new" silver syllabus in AMI is a smooth and rhythm syllabus. (10 dances -- the 9 you would think of plus samba.)

Basically, they went through their old silver syllabus, threw out some steps that were dysfunctional, changed some steps to make them work better (i.e., the component pieces are still whole, but they may teach them with a different entrance or a different exit) and pulled down some of what used to be AMI gold material to make the syllabus more interesting and challenging.

So they threw out about half of it, lol? The ancient syllabus was really crummy looking when seeing it danced. Bad polyester suits and big hair, my friend.... Ick. ;)

That's another point -- the social aspect in franchise studios. The social atmosphere, the camraderie, etc, is a big draw for people. I haven't spent much time in independent studios, but from my experience (and what I understand from others) franchise studios provide a great atmosphere for socializing along with dancing.

I totally agree. I started out looking for that but ended up wanting _more_ and the studio wasn't able to deliver it for a reasonable price. At the end of one year or so. of the four male instructors divided between 2 studios (1 at my studio, 3 at the other), there was ONE male instructor left. Not good for business when 80% of your enrollment is women.....

[sunderi]

Are there any cancellation fees? When I was at FA years ago there was a cancellation fee. You could get most of the money paid for lessons not taken back but not all of it. I don't recall what the cancellation penalty was, but for some reason 10% sticks in my head.

Not where I work.

We do have fees if students don't show up for a lesson they've verified, or if they cancel at the last minute habitually (that definition is left up to the individual instructor) but there are no fees for cancelling a program. You get everything left that you have not yet taken. Again, not sure it works that way everywhere.

[DancingMommy]

I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson.

Lessons at AMI are only 40 minutes each? For the prices that have been quoted here? Oh my. I assumed they were for an hour. I pay $65 for a full 60-minute hour from someone who was an Open National champion in her style in the past five years. And, on the day I have a private lesson, I can come as early as I like to warm up and practice or stay as late as I like afterwards without having to pay extra floor fees.

Sorry while I'm sitting here being a little aghast. My coach used to teach at AMI years ago, and there's a lot of good that goes on there, but the price for a mere 40 minute lesson makes me shake my head.

Your lesson would be 45 minutes but there is 5 minutes of "turn time" built in. You pay for 45 minutes but get 40. That was my experience at least.

[DancingMommy]

In other words, if you take 10 lessons of a 40 lesson contract and quit, you are not obligated to pay for the remaining 30 lessons.

Are there any cancellation fees? When I was at FA years ago there was a cancellation fee. You could get most of the money paid for lessons not taken back but not all of it. I don't recall what the cancellation penalty was, but for some reason 10% sticks in my head.

The AMI I started at was 10%.

[Kitty]

Well, first, it's not 400 hours -- it's 400 lessons. I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson. So we're talking more like just over 250 hours. The numbers I was quoting were also for someone who does not have a partner to practice with regularly outside of lesson time.

40 minute lessons for $90 per hour? Wow! I've taken 45-minute lessons with Blackpool Finalists for $85 and lessons with my other coach who is a former US champion are $65 for 50 minutes.

[Purr]

I was basing that off of my studios lesson time of 40 min per lesson.

Lessons at AMI are only 40 minutes each? For the prices that have been quoted here? Oh my. I assumed they were for an hour. I pay $65 for a full 60-minute hour from someone who was an Open National champion in her style in the past five years. And, on the day I have a private lesson, I can come as early as I like to warm up and practice or stay as late as I like afterwards without having to pay extra floor fees.

Sorry while I'm sitting here being a little aghast. My coach used to teach at AMI years ago, and there's a lot of good that goes on there, but the price for a mere 40 minute lesson makes me shake my head.

Ok, then, let's do some figuring. A 40 minute lesson is $90. Then, the lesson is $2.25 per minute, or $45 for 20 minutes, or $135 for a full hour. That's awfully high.

I've not been at a studio, franchise or independent, that the lessons were only 40 minutes each. They've all been 45 minutes and up. And I've never paid any extra floor fees for practice time on my own.

[DancingMommy]

Are there any cancellation fees? When I was at FA years ago there was a cancellation fee. You could get most of the money paid for lessons not taken back but not all of it. I don't recall what the cancellation penalty was, but for some reason 10% sticks in my head.

Not where I work.

We do have fees if students don't show up for a lesson they've verified, or if they cancel at the last minute habitually (that definition is left up to the individual instructor) but there are no fees for cancelling a program. You get everything left that you have not yet taken. Again, not sure it works that way everywhere.

I wish I had started at YOUR AMI studio. It would have been a far better experience. It just goes to show....

[sunderi]

Well, after reading all these posts, there is one thing that I would like to say. Whether a person thinks he/she has improved doesn't really say much. Well, it says "something," but really nothing.

When I danced at FA (I had a wonderful time, still like the teachers, still say hi when we meet at comps, etc......), I thought I was dancing really well and have improved a lot. Well, yeah, I have improved by the end of the 3 months compared to when I first started. I knew steps and could "follow" vs I knew nothing before. Guys liked to dance with me at the FA socials b/c I was one of the "better" dancers.
This was all just simply because everyone else was even worse, not because I was any good dancer. Thinking back, I was horrible then...... :wink:

Maybe this sounds horrible . . . but that is really up to the student to police on their own -- we offer a service at a price. If they feel they aren't getting their money's worth, they should go elsewhere, but it doesn't make the studio BAD to charge the price. Lots of people do think it's worthwhile -- and we aren't talking about stupid people, either. I respect the intelligence and savvy of the vast majority of my students.

I know, this thread is all about watching out for pitfalls, and I don't mind anyone pointing out that, minute for minute, AMI is expensive. It is. But that doesn't flat out make it NOT worth it. It doesn't make us bad, and it doesn't make our students ignorant. Different people want to get different things out of their dancing, and for some people, we are the right answer. I might add that a lot of those people aren't passionate enough about their dancing to be online, talking about it mid-afternoon. :wink: I think that's one of the reasons that AMI/FADS folks are under-represented on DF. :wink:

[Laura]

It sounds like your studio has done a really good job of avoiding some of the bad stuff associated with the chain stereotype.

So, moving on to the social aspect: a big part of the reason why the chains have a good social aspect to them is because when the instructors are all on staff they can be told to come to the socials and be in the ballroom during the comps because it is part of their job. They have more invested with the actual studio as a whole that way. My ex-AMI friend told me that she had to be at every wekeend party and that when they went to comps she was required to be in the ballroom for any session that one of the studio's students was dancing. This made for a great atmosphere where there would be advanced dancers at the socials and lots of support in the ballroom for the competitors. Independent teachers don't have the same impetus to be there: it's not a question of their job any more. Some do come to socials and do go to comps to watch students because they enjoy it or because they feel responsible to their students, but there's not this sense of studio cohesiveness that comes about when everyone is actually working for the same studio.

[DancingMommy]

I agree with you (sunderi). The only problem comes when the studio is adamant that the student A) never dance outside the studio functions because they might and I quote "learn something wrong and then we'd have to waste a lot of time re-learning it" or B) refuses to listen to the student who decides they want to drop a dance or two down from 10 to 8 or so.

Both of those happened to me. It was fugly.

I also agree with Laura. I've seen both sides of the coin. 8)

[sunderi]

I wish I had started at YOUR AMI studio. It would have been a far better experience. It just goes to show....

I do feel really lucky. I started here as a student, looked around at other studios, came back, and now I'm working here. I love it, and I feel really fortunate. :)

[standardgirl]

I might add that a lot of those people aren't passionate enough about their dancing to be online, talking about it mid-afternoon. :wink: I think that's one of the reasons that AMI/FADS folks are under-represented on DF. :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
and we are all here trying to help them out?
hum......

[sunderi]

My ex-AMI friend told me that she had to be at every wekeend party and that when they went to comps she was required to be in the ballroom for any session that one of the studio's students was dancing. This made for a great atmosphere where there would be advanced dancers at the socials and lots of support in the ballroom for the competitors.

Yep, we are all required to do that, as well. We're actually required to be dressed and in the ballroom over 30 minutes BEFORE the first one competes, so no one is ever made to feel alone or uncomfortable.

[Laura]

The only problem comes when the studio is adamant that the student A) never dance outside the studio functions because they might and I quote "learn something wrong and then we'd have to waste a lot of time re-learning it"

This can happen at non-chain studios too...all you need is a couple of control freaks running the place and it happens. I know one pair of non-chain teachers who won't let their students take lessons elsewhere without permission, and who won't let their students partner with someone from another studio unless the person is "approved" by the teachers. So weird black holes can appear anywhere...it's not just a chain thing.

[sunderi]

I agree with you (sunderi). The only problem comes when the studio is adamant that the student A) never dance outside the studio functions because they might and I quote "learn something wrong and then we'd have to waste a lot of time re-learning it" or B) refuses to listen to the student who decides they want to drop a dance or two down from 10 to 8 or so.

I agree that there are dozens (hundreds? more?) things that franchise studios do that SUCK! (Including those you've listed.) But those are just BAD businesses, period. They'd be bad if they were gyms, restaurants, whatever. They're being run by unscrupulous people.

I just feel the need to make sure everyone knows you can't just ALL of the franchises just because there are a lot of bad ones. You have to think of each AMI or FADS as a separate business, because they're all run by different people with different levels of honesty.

[sunderi]

I might add that a lot of those people aren't passionate enough about their dancing to be online, talking about it mid-afternoon. :wink: I think that's one of the reasons that AMI/FADS folks are under-represented on DF. :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
and we are all here trying to help them out?
hum......

And I spend 20 hours a week trying to get them excited about their dancing! :lol:

[standardgirl]

There are just different purposes and different goals for dancing.
One of my co-worker just got started with AM. I told her the price is higher, but I also told her the social atmosphere is great.

She is rich (I don't think anyone in college will be able to afford dancing at AM), and for the most part, going to AM locally is more convienent than going to a studio in the city. Plus, she is in her 50's and just wants to have fun social dancing, and not copetitive dancing. The franchised atmosphere is what she needs, and what she is looking for.
I told her that she should have lots of fun at the local AM since I have been there once, and know some people that work there. They are all very very nice. :D

[Purr]

The only problem comes when the studio is adamant that the student A) never dance outside the studio functions because they might and I quote "learn something wrong and then we'd have to waste a lot of time re-learning it"

This can happen at non-chain studios too...all you need is a couple of control freaks running the place and it happens. I know one pair of non-chain teachers who won't let their students take lessons elsewhere without permission, and who won't let their students partner with someone from another studio unless the person is "approved" by the teachers. So weird black holes can appear anywhere...it's not just a chain thing.

That's just ridiculous, and yes, I know it happens. But this is dancing, for pete's sake, not rocket science or brain surgery. It's supposed to be fun for the student! And I seriously doubt anyone's dancing can get that messed up from a little social dancing with another student, or even another teacher.

[lynn]

How would the teachers possibly know if you don't tell them? The only thing I can think of is if the students have actually picked up bad habits (ie, wrong posture, form..etc.)

[Laura]

I'm talking about competitors, not social dancers. I don't think the control freaks care as much about social dancers.

As for how they know...the competitive dance world is small and word gets around. Nothing stays secret for long!

[DancingMommy]

I'm talking about competitors, not social dancers. I don't think the control freaks care as much about social dancers.

As for how they know...the competitive dance world is small and word gets around. Nothing stays secret for long!

I'm talking about social dancing. EEK. We were told it was better not to go to the local USABDA function if you can believe it. And we weren't allowed to compete outside the AMI system - as in the teachers wouldn't go (I think because they weren't registered with NDCA probably and would've gotten smoked on the floor by an Am couple anyways.)

[Laura]

See, this is the dark side again...some AMI's and FA's don't *want* their students going to to parties elsewhere or to compete elsewhere because they'll see how substandard their dancing is. They like having the "closed" environment of the chain parties and chain competitions because it protects them. If the students don't see better or read better or hear better from outsiders, then they'll think everything is just peachy where they are...when sometimes it isn't.

It's not always like that...I've seen some of the FA's in our area come to some of the local NDCA comps, but I've heard tales from students in other areas of the US about the control freak aspect.

[tendancer]

Are there any cancellation fees? When I was at FA years ago there was a cancellation fee. You could get most of the money paid for lessons not taken back but not all of it. I don't recall what the cancellation penalty was, but for some reason 10% sticks in my head.

Not where I work.

We do have fees if students don't show up for a lesson they've verified, or if they cancel at the last minute habitually (that definition is left up to the individual instructor) but there are no fees for cancelling a program. You get everything left that you have not yet taken. Again, not sure it works that way everywhere.


I find that very hard to believe. The standard AMI contracts are not written by the individual studios but comes from corporate and all look the same regardless of the studio, and they specify in clause D:


"Student agrees to complete all lessons and/or services as expressly provided in this agreement. Student shall not be relieved of the obligation to make any payment agreed to, and no deduction or allowance for any payments shall be made by reason of Student's failure to use any lessons and/or services, except as provided."


Now I'll be the first to acknowledge studios can and do add additional clauses (which would be clause E), commonly:


E. Cancellation fee-10%of entire contract less any discounts maxium $250.00


Hey if your studio indeed added a clause contradicting the corporate mantra and saying the entire amount would be refunded, more power to them for being conscientious. But do realize that is by far an exceedingly rare exception, rather than the norm for AMI.

[pygmalion]

The franchise studio I attended had pretty severe penalties for cancellation, as well. I guess things differ from franchisee to franchisee. :?

[sunderi]

I'm talking about social dancing. EEK. We were told it was better not to go to the local USABDA function if you can believe it. And we weren't allowed to compete outside the AMI system - as in the teachers wouldn't go (I think because they weren't registered with NDCA probably and would've gotten smoked on the floor by an Am couple anyways.)

Now that *is* true -- we aren't permitted (as AMI instructors) to participate in independent comps with our students. The reasoning I've been given is 1) we aren't permitted to take that time away from the studio and our other students 2) we provide events where students get to dance with their instructors, and a given instructor has many students to dance with at our comps, and therefore get more students danced with at one time (I am loathe to say it, but basically "more bang for the buck").

That said, however, we do have a few Amateur couples who do participate in independent comps -- but they don't get to take their instructor with them.

[sunderi]

I find that very hard to believe. The standard AMI contracts are not written by the individual studios but comes from corporate and all look the same regardless of the studio, and they specify in clause D:


"Student agrees to complete all lessons and/or services as expressly provided in this agreement. Student shall not be relieved of the obligation to make any payment agreed to, and no deduction or allowance for any payments shall be made by reason of Student's failure to use any lessons and/or services, except as provided."



My understanding is actually that the enforceability of that clause (which I really don't believe is in our contract, but I'll check tomorrow when I go to work) varies from state to state. In Virginia, as I understand it, you simply cannot hold someone liable for services not rendered, except up to the amount of actual damages (i.e., it *is* possible to charge someone for a confirmed lesson that they don't show up for or cancel within 24 hours, because that instructor is left sitting with nothing to do, and the studio pays them anyway). I'm not a lawyer, though, and I can't swear to it, but that is how it was explained to me by the management of the studio when I was a student there (because that was a question I asked when I originally signed up).

[pygmalion]

Yes, sunderi. I think you're right. Some of the details do vary by state. 8)

[DancePoet]

Hi, everyone,

One of my friends has joined the local AMI and is pretty much trying to get me to take classes there. From her descriptions though, I do have a question. It seems as though beginner students are required to take a certain number of classes before they can advance to the next level regardless of their ability (ie, 4 classes in the intro program, 20 in the pre-bronze..etc).
Lovely. :roll:

[DancePoet]

I'm not, nor have I ever been, an AMI student either. However, I think the dancing curriculum should be tailored to the individual student. Whatever the student's interests are and his/her level of expection of how he/she would like to dance, either socially or competitively, should be the foundation of the curriculum. Not everyone wants to learn all dances, or the same style of dance, and not everyone progresses at the same rate.

I'd rather have the student and teacher engage in a meaning dialogue so the student has the best dancing experience possible. I don't think a student should be made to fit into a cookie-cutter program.
I second this one! :rocker:

[pianoman]

Do the franchises teach mostly american or int'l style?

[DancingMommy]

Both the main franchises teach both syllabi (American & Int'l) but AMI stays more to Am Style and FADS caters to those who really want Int'l (IME). From what I've seen of competing pros who are franshisees, they tend to be Int'l Style....

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the insight, DM. 8)

[Rugby]

I think you are right on the mark Tendancer. The AM Studio in the city where I am from went out of business though FA is still around. From what I hear the programs are somewhat the same, though thankfully I have not experienced it myself so thats second hand from more than a few people I know. Many people I've talked to look upon dancing as a rip off as they have gone through the "get a free lesson then get fleeced" system. Some instructors I have seen out dancing can't be far ahead of their students as the technique is near non-existant and the rest not much better. I tell people to avoid them like the plague. In a neighbouring city a friend of mine was told by the guy that ran a studio that he would be a fantastic instructor as he was such a great dancer though at both styles he barely got out of last place in comps at pre-bronze level. So who was he suppose to teach? The clincher, he is better than most of the "instructors" I have seen. Whats up with that? At some comps when watching the Pro/Am it becomes a game to try and guess who is the instructor and who the student. I'm not saying they are all like that by any means, but where does one get off charging huge bucks for inferior instructors. I've gone to people that have placed high or won in the top levels at Blackpool and they don't charge what I've heard some studios charge. Get real!! I know people who have put out a fortune and are still not even mediocre dancers. One lady told me what she had learned after 1 1/2 years but she could not do it unless lead and even then when I lead it for her I had to physically help hold her up for her balance. They had her legs and body so twisted that she could hardly do the basic steps yet at the same time she was telling me she was so lucky as she had worked with the best instructor. I hope that people watching Dancing With The Stars don't go blindly forth and and be burned.

[Purr]

An acquaintance told me her husband bought them 5 introductory lessons for $89 at the local AM. She wants to learn tango. She asked me what I paid for regular lessons, and quite frankly, she was horrified (I pay $65 per lesson from an independent teacher). I told her prices varied by studio, and type of lesson package purchased.

Anyway, I thought 5 lessons for $89 wasn't bad for an introductory special.

[pygmalion]

Just wait 'til the studio pitches the non-introductory lessons. Your friend is going to have a heart attack. :lol: :lol:

[Purr]

Sadly, I know. It's going to be sticker shock. :oops:

Prices to vary quite a bit from studio to studio around town. We have both major franchises (AM and FADS) as well as several independent studios. Level of instruction can also vary quite a big, from general social dancing to competitive dancesport. The best advice for anyone is to shop around, and find a place with a good fit that won't break the bank.

I've already been there, and done that, and I'm happy where I'm at. :D

[pygmalion]

Best of luck to your friend. I hope she can find a place that fits her budget. 8)

[Purr]

Me, too. I gave her my teacher's card, and suggested she call about the beginning level group classes that are offered. But, she also seemed shocked about having to pay $8 or $10 for a group class.

The cheapest rate in the city I know of is $40 per lesson, and $5 for group classes. The most expensive rate I've heard of is $120 per lesson, and $25 for group classes (master class). There are a numerous of price points in between.

Learning to dance is a process that takes time, effort, and some kind of instruction. And that's not cheap.

[Katarzyna]

The most expensive rate I've heard of is $120 per lesson, and $25 for group classes (master class). There are a numerous of price points in between.
.

hm. that would mean that paying 150 for 45 min is a lot :roll:

[Purr]

Yes, it's very expensive rate. I wouldn't pay it.

[Katarzyna]

Yes, it's very expensive rate. I wouldn't pay it.
Sometimes it depends on who's the teacher...

[Purr]

Well, yes. I have paid higher rates when my teacher has brought in a outside coach. I think the most expensive was $130, which was with a Russian standard champion. I'd say the session was worthwhile, he had a lot of interesting ideas about maintaining connection.

Please keep in mind that such coaching is not the norm. And it doesn't break the budget.

[Katarzyna]

Please keep in mind that such coaching is not the norm. And it doesn't break the budget.

Not a norm, but it can break the budget :?

[Purr]

If that's the case, I won't schedule with the outside coach. Or else, I'd limit to just one lesson, instead of two or more. I've also had the discussion with my teacher about prioritizing what we'll do, if I have to choose between a couple of things.

[Katarzyna]

good for you!

[Kitty]

The most expensive rate I've heard of is $120 per lesson, and $25 for group classes (master class). There are a numerous of price points in between.
.

hm. that would mean that paying 150 for 45 min is a lot :roll:

and today some people I know are taking lessons for $160...

[Laura]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.

[Katarzyna]

and today some people I know are taking lessons for $160...
WHo?

[Kitty]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.

I think she charges quite a bit less than that.

[Kitty]

and today some people I know are taking lessons for $160...
WHo?

my partner for example.
GG invited his own coach from Italy...

[Laura]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.

I think she charges quite a bit less than that.

Then you must be getting a deal because I've got lessons booked with her at that rate.

[Katarzyna]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.
Charlotte is 95

.............
I made a mistake, 100

[Katarzyna]

my partner for example.
...

I thought you said 150 before 8)

[standardgirl]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.

I think she charges quite a bit less than that.

That's more like her out-of-town rate.....I would be shocked if that's her normal rate in NY.

Okay...I missed Kat's post....so she is $95 in NY?

[Katarzyna]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.

I think she charges quite a bit less than that.

Then you must be getting a deal because I've got lessons booked with her at that rate.

I think coaches charge more when they travel, and fees also depend on how much they need to pay to the venue (and who books the lessons for them)

[Laura]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.
Charlotte is 95

$95 for a full 60-minute hour? The out-of-town-rate now seems to be $115 for 45-minutes.

Still, it's worth it to me.

[Katarzyna]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.
Charlotte is 95

$95 for a full 60-minute hour? The out-of-town-rate now seems to be $115 for 45-minutes.

Still, it's worth it to me.
I corrected my previous post. It's 100. I think it's a whole hour but it's been a while since I've taken a lesson with her...

She's worth whatever she decides to charge though..

[Kitty]

It all depends on the coach. $150/hour for the likes of Charlotte Jorgenson, yes. For someone of lesser accomplishments and teaching talents, no.
Charlotte is 95

$95 for a full 60-minute hour? The out-of-town-rate now seems to be $115 for 45-minutes.

Still, it's worth it to me.

I don't think anyone at BoF teaches a 60-minute hour... All the prices here are usually for 45 minutes.

[standardgirl]

She's worth whatever she decides to charge though..

And from what I heard, she shall be back soon! Woohoo~ :D
She's definitly worth whatever she decides to charge. :wink:

[Kitty]

She's worth whatever she decides to charge though..

And from what I heard, she shall be back soon! Woohoo~ :D
She's definitly worth whatever she decides to charge. :wink:

Is she?
She didn't move permanently to CA?

[Katarzyna]

quote]

Is she?
She didn't move permanently to CA?

Definitely..

I think she's gone for good. She comes over from time to time...

[Kitty]

I think it's a whole hour but it's been a while since I've taken a lesson with her...

Is writing notes time included in the lesson time or does she do that after the lesson is over?

[Katarzyna]

I think it's a whole hour but it's been a while since I've taken a lesson with her...

Is writing notes time included in the lesson time or does she do that after the lesson is over? :lol:

Depends, sometimes during when she works on a routine, sometimes after :lol:

[Laura]

She didn't move permanently to CA?

Not that I have heard for sure. Obviously she was out in LA for the full run of "Dancing with the Stars," and I heard rumors that she might move somewhere out here permanently, but so far nothing is definite as to if or when or where.

[standardgirl]

She's worth whatever she decides to charge though..

And from what I heard, she shall be back soon! Woohoo~ :D
She's definitly worth whatever she decides to charge. :wink:

Is she?
She didn't move permanently to CA?

Heard this last night from a friend of hers, that she will be in NY sometime soon after the show is over (and it's over!). I don't know if she has moved to CA or not.

[Katarzyna]

All I know is she moved out of NY

[Chris Stratton]

While it's one thing to discuss amongst friends, I'm not sure if we should be quoting specific teacher's rates in a public forum. There are many legitimate reasons why they may change, especially when travel, studio fees, and host overhead are taken into consideration.

[alemana]

why shouldn't we?

[DancingMommy]

why shouldn't we?

Yeah, no kidding.

[cl5814]

why shouldn't we?

I think as long as the rate quotes are seen as informative and nothing more than that.

[ChaChaLicious]

hello fellow dancers.. i was reading the first few posts on this thread and i read that someone went through 2 years of bronze, 2 years of silver, and 2 years of gold... thats a bit odd to me. i've been dancing for 6 years now, and i rushed through all of them. i spent about a year and a half in bronze, a year in open-silver, then a year in silver. a year in gold, and now im in champ. (at least thats how the levels work in my studio. )

[Laura]

That would be me, and it is considered normal where I live for average adults who start Pro/Am Standard in their 30's. Some people go more quickly, some go more slowly, it all depends on how talented you are, how many lessons you can take, and how much you can practice and work on your own.

[pygmalion]

why shouldn't we?

I think as long as the rate quotes are seen as informative and nothing more than that.

I'm not entirely comfortable with specific teacher rate quotes. I'd prefer to have general information. But I'm cool with whatever everybody else decides. 8) :D

[Chris Stratton]

It seems to me that if teachers wanted to encourage shopping by price they would advertise their rates. The fact that many don't suggests to me that they are mostly interested in teaching students dedicated enough to learning that price is not the primary motivating factor compared to teaching reputation or experience in past lessons. (Though of course it has some influence and would at some point become an inhibiting factor). Keeping specific quotes offline also increases the likelihood of their being shared in the context of the other factors that might be found in more detailed friend-to-friend teacher recommendations / reviews.

There's an old joke that everyone has their price, and while we don't need to get into the moral debates of that, suffice to say that I dislike the idea of giving the impression that a highly skilled educator can be "bought" for the hourly rate that they actually charge their regular students. Yes, economically one purchases their services for an hour or part, but interpersonally a beneficial dance lesson is much more a willing meeting of minds than a business transaction. While there may be unfortunate inequity in the fact that many top teachers charge little more than the going rate for beginner lessons with a staff instructor, the service being provided is very, very different in a way that free market pricing driven by of out-of-context quotes could never take into account.

[pygmalion]

While there may be unfortunate inequity in the fact that many top teachers charge little more than the going rate for beginner lessons with a staff instructor, the service being provided is very, very different in a way that free market pricing driven by of out-of-context quotes could never take into account.

I agree completely, Chris. 8)

[love2swing]

I currently work at an AMI studio. I started as a student there. I couldn't be happier with the way my studio is run, and how I was treated as a student there before I joined the staff. My studio does not do any of the dreadful things listed in here. I just wanted to throw in my two cents and say don't judge a whole franchise based on your experience at one studio. There are good studios and bad studios in each bunch, rather it be Fred Astaire, Arthur Murray, or independents. Just check out studios in your area and find the one that offers what you want. It sounds like we run our studio the same way sunderi's (I think! I don't remember the name now!) studio is run. No high pressure sales, only requiring that you pay for the lessons you have taken, allowing people to pay as they go, etc etc. We figure that people want to learn to dance, and if we're doing our jobs as instructors there's no need to push the huge contracts because people will come back.

Also, I don't remember who it was, but to the person who bought an insane amount of lessons (like $9000 per contract or whatever), that seems a little high pressure. Granted, if you like where you are at and can afford it and it's something you want to keep doing, then by all means go for it. However, if you are unhappy or want to try out something else, know that if you're in any large metropolitan area you can probably find what you're looking for for much cheaper.

[pygmalion]

I currently work at an AMI studio. I started as a student there. I couldn't be happier with the way my studio is run, and how I was treated as a student there before I joined the staff. My studio does not do any of the dreadful things listed in here. I just wanted to throw in my two cents and say don't judge a whole franchise based on your experience at one studio.

Very well said, love2swing. 8) :D

[helloman]

I went to AM and completed the bronze program of 8 dances in about 2 years. That consisted of about 36 private lessons of 55 min each, about 50 group lessons and a whole bunch of supervised practice parties.
Due to budget issue, I did not do any competition or spotlight show dance at all.
I agree that the high pressure sales pitch could get quite intense at times.
I had to decline because I just couldn't afford it.

Some AM students here organize informal weekly outing to local dance clubs for as long as I remember.
I think my dancing skill benefits most from those weekly social dance outings.

[DancingMommy]

Welcome hellloman! Our studio had a group like that. There were a few of us who were pretty tight outside the studio and we would get together about 3-4 times a week to go out.

[helloman]

Thanks, DancingMommy.
I discovered this board quite a while ago
but I haven't posted much.
I find this board very informative and active
so I come here often to check out what`s new in the dancing world.

There were a few of us who were pretty tight outside the studio and we would get together about 3-4 times a week to go out.
Wow, going out 3-4 times a week, plus taking lesson and practising!
You must have been dancing everyday.

The group in our branch is only loosely organized.
The number and the people in that group constantly change.
The number can vary from 10 to over 30 in each outing.
Every couple of months new people join in while some current memebers take a break.
Sometimes old-timers return after years of absence.
Not everyone in this group is from AM
so we get to practice different steps and different styles too.
We usaully meet in a pre-determined social dance club in certain time range every Saturday night.
Since the schedule is not rigid, people arrive and leave at various times
during that time range.
I find this arrangement an excellent way
to practice new moves or to simply indulge in the joy of dancing.

I think that the students of every school should organize something like this.

[DancingMommy]

Wow, going out 3-4 times a week, plus taking lesson and practising!

I believe I was dancing 40+ hours a week (for fun). :)

[lynn]

Wow, going out 3-4 times a week, plus taking lesson and practising!

I believe I was dancing 40+ hours a week (for fun). :)

40???!! :shock: :shock: wow..... That's about how much time i spend staring @ the computer every week!

[alemana]

back to the discussion about quoting teachers' hourly rates:

i think it's interesting the way two recurring discussions on the topic of the price of dancing/lessons play out.

Topic One: "Wow, these lessons and everything are so expensive!"
Standard Response: "They cost what the market will bear."
Connotation: It's the market, baby.

Topic Two: "Hm, teacher X charges this much and here's what you get for it." Or variations, such as: "Here's what I paid for teacher Y a year ago for privates."
Standard Response: "It's vaguely uncool to quote lesson charges because it's about so much MORE than a monetary transaction."
Connotation: It's not just the market, baby.

Ya can't really have it both ways. I've been online a long time, as a participant and moderator in quite a few online discussion environments. I'm aware that just because a statement or claim *can* be made, doesn't mean it *should,* and that putting details in writing in a public place is different than chatting about something 'in real life.' I also wouldn't want to put the forum organizers in any sort of jeopardy, legally or otherwise.

However, I can't escape the general feeling that, first of all, I'm expected to sort of put up and shut up about the cost of dancesport. I'm sorry, I won't. The second pressure I feel is to deny or downplay instances in which students (or clients, which is what they really are) are unquestionably put, either circumstantially or institutionally, in a disadvantaged position when it comes to the exchange of money for the delivery of dance instruction. I won't do that, either.

I am not arguing that we should all start listing our instructors and admit what we pay them. Or that we should freely gossip about lesson charges and critique the value of the services rendered. Let's note that the discussion we had a few pages ago didn't sink to that level at all. In general, this board is one of the more civilized places I've hung my online hat, and I am very much invested in keeping it that way.

I am also not under any illusions about the personal financial situation of many, if not most, dance instructors. Many of the competitors I know are living hand-to-mouth. Their personal decisions to charge a certain hourly rate aren't my issue, at *all.* They are struggling in the same way I am - to pay competition costs, to pay for coachings, to pay for the chiropractor, etc. Many make tremendous sacrifices to fund their dancing.

So what I'm saying is, I am very grateful for the tact with which folks have been posting about the dreaded money issue, and I personally didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. I hope we can continue to have such useful discussions. If we're really in a free market situation, where as consumers we are able to range around the marketplace searching for the right combination of price and service, let's not pretend there's an iron curtain over the price tag.

[cl5814]

well said, alemana. i pretty much feel the same way.

[pygmalion]

After a second reading, I've realized I'm on the same page with you, as well, alemana. 8) I don't think there's any point in spilling our guts about specific rates, no. But I also believe that information is power, which is why I've spent a couple years, now, sharing as much information as I can. I have never named a name, because I don't believe in finger pointing, which naming names can become. But I do think that sharing our experiences can often be helpful to us all. (As long as the conversation doesn't deteriorate -- something else you alluded to, alemana. 8) )