Dancing with the Stars - Week 5

[discovery]

Previous Dancing With the Stars Discussions
Preshow and Week 1 Discussion (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9152)
Week 1 Poll (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9845)
Week 2 Discussion (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9909)
Week 2 Poll (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9927)
Week 3 (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10023)
Week 4 (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10123)
Week 5 (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10219)
Finale (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10312)

Soundtrack (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9893t=10122)
Judges & Contestants (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9928)
In the News (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10054)
Music (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10036)
Sold Out (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9883)
Free Tickets (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9233)




In the words of pink, let's get this party started.

This week's dances: Paso Doble and Foxtrot
.

[DanceMentor]

Do they have to do both dances or pick just one?

[discovery]

I'm guessing that they have to do both dances, seeing as last week they had to do samba and Viennese Waltz and there were more couples. They have to fill the time somehow.

[Larinda McRaven]

Good Evening Everyone!

Gotta say John did not miss a step. He was graceful and it looked good.

[Shannon]

He looked great. I hope his Paso turns out as well.

[Larinda McRaven]

Kelly looked great again. But... it wasn't a foxtrot, choreographically speaking. It was a nice "cabaret" number. But she is a fighter and she looked wonderful.

[Larinda McRaven]

WOW! Joey and Ashley have totally impressed me. That was a great AMERICAN Style Foxtrot.


(edit) Len obviously needs to watch a few American competitions to see how we do things over here.

[randomMysh]

GO ASHLY!!! She finally shut him up and told him to do it her way! I've been waiting for that for four weeks.

John and Charlotte were lovely. I was worried about them for the past couple of weeks, he was so tense and overwrought, but this week they were foxtrot personified. Yay!

[Shannon]

Poor Ashley, it looks like they may have told them one thing and then judged them on another. I admit it wasn't what I would have chosen but it was entertaining.

[randomMysh]

She was pissed, and she should be. She did the best she could with what she had (ok, I don't like Joey).

[randomMysh]

John and Charlotte's Paso is so classic, loved it. Did he lose her there at the end?
edit: maybe not. I sort of looked away and looked up and something happened there, but I missed it.

[Shannon]

Go John!!! Or should I say Fernando? :D

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes, I too thought there was a slight fumble at the end, but it was minor, small enough to be missed if not watching intently.

[Larinda McRaven]

was that a Paso or Samba for Kelly... that was horrible music.

[Shannon]

I think Kelly and Alec got screwed on their music.

[randomMysh]

What are Kelly and Alec dancing to, exactly?
I love her dress, if you can call it that. She has that one in a million body that can actually look good in that.

This is not....really...paso....

[Larinda McRaven]

Boy, is she in great shape or what?

[randomMysh]

Yeah, oh man. Makes me wanna go to the gym (almost). :oops: :lol:

What makes me even more ashamed is the fact that she's at work at 5am and I'm not even working. :oops: :oops:

[Larinda McRaven]

Well I don't know about anyone else, but there was just a commerical during the break for the three local Fred Astaire studios... :shock:

[randomMysh]

Nope. Cars and KFC here. :)

Joey's and Ashly's music is...ok, also bad. They look so mechanical, but I don't know if they could do anything else to that.

edit: It was very clean. Yay, Ashly!

[Larinda McRaven]

What is up with the MUSIC? Eye of the Tiger ?

puuhlleesse

[Larinda McRaven]

Boy Joey is determined, he has a resolve that you can just feel from him!

[pygmalion]

What is up with the MUSIC? Eye of the Tiger ?

puuhlleesse

Ditto. I'm going to have to skip that track on my soundtrack CD. :roll: :lol:

[randomMysh]

Hurray! John and Charlotte made finals. Yayayayayay! :lol:

[Larinda McRaven]

Well I am so sad, Joey goes home. Ashley looked like she was holding the tears back.

[GalacticDancer44M]

I missed the first half hour, but I'm pretty impressed with how far the stars have come in this short of timespan. How would you rate their progress to a so-called six week wonder Dance Instructor? Obviously, the stars are getting top notch coaching and plenty of it.

[Shannon]

They really need to stop messing up the music. It was good to see Joey's determination. Ashley looked like she was going to bust into tears when it was announced that they lost.

I'm so glad John and Charlotte made it to the finals. They certainly have my vote to win!

[SDsalsaguy]

I think Kelly and Alec got screwed on their music.
BIG TIME!!! :evil:

[alemana]

i watched it for the first time this week - got to see two episodes in a row.

i can't believe kelly made the final. nice sixpack, nice fake tan, but the very least i expect from the nondancers is that they will EMOTE. she looks like a valiumed-up undergrad, glazed eyes, no expression. boring.

[SDsalsaguy]

They really need to stop messing up the music. It was good to see Joey's determination. Ashley looked like she was going to bust into tears when it was announced that they lost.
Again the issue is that its this weeks judges' scores with last week's audience score... so you know that kelly had last week's audience in the bag and John clearly won tonight's judging.

[pygmalion]

Yeah. The one-week time lag seems to seal the departing couple's fate. I'm not sure I like the overall scoring structure.

At this point, though, I think the remaining couples have both worked their butts off to progress as they have. There's nobody undeserving left in the competition, IMO.

Next week will be interesting and heartbreaking, no matter how it goes, IMO. (Although I think Kelly and alec may have my vote. Not sure yet. :wink: )

[Kitty]

who picked the music for the couples?



Also, I'm trying to vote by phone and the line is busy! What do I do? Does everyone else experience this as well?

[pygmalion]

Can you get online to vote? That's been easiest for me, every week. 8)

[Kitty]

how?
couldn't find how...

[Kitty]

what is Ashley's specialty style?

[Pathological Dancer]

I think this is a set up in some ways. If one is assigned a music, costume and choreography that sucks...surely one is assured a runner-up position. This happened to John and Charlotte last week. :?

[Larinda McRaven]

but the very least i expect from the nondancers is that they will EMOTE. she looks like a valiumed-up undergrad, glazed eyes, no expression. boring.

:D :D

Well let me tell you, she is 100% more emotive than she was the first few weeks. When she called herself a tree-stump she wasn't kidding, that was about as much facial expression she was able to muster. This week was totally better.

[Larinda McRaven]

They really need to stop messing up the music. It was good to see Joey's determination. Ashley looked like she was going to bust into tears when it was announced that they lost.
Again the issue is that its this weeks judges' scores with last week's audience score... so you know that kelly had last week's audience in the bag and John clearly won tonight's judging.

Yes it was immediatley clear to me who was going home after John got all 9's in each dance.

The judges do sometimes appear of their scores are preset in order to manipulate the outcome... since I am sure there are quite a few people who actually do know the previous weeks audience scores.

[Larinda McRaven]

what is Ashley's specialty style?

Ashley has mostly Latin training.

If you go to www register.go.com/abc/primetime/dancing/vote you can vote online there.

[alemana]

if it's between kelly and john, in my view it's not even a contest.

[pygmalion]

To be perfectly honest (while hopefully not hurting anyone's feelings) I don't think it matters much who wins, from a ballroom perspective. Never has.

What I care about now is whather this show is making a positive impact on the image/attractiveness of ballroom dance in the US. 8) :D

[Larinda McRaven]

How would you rate their progress to a so-called six week wonder Dance Instructor?

Well teachers in a training class are taught to teach, not perform. And they certainly aren't taught to dance Paso or Viennese. They are taught to help wedding couples and other ordinary folk bobbity bop foxtrot around the floor. So in that repect, these celebrities look great. And I am greatly impressed with how far they have come.

[jjohnjjr]

For what it's worth (to my inexperienced eyes)...
I thought John and Charlotte were the only couple that danced the dance that was advertised both times. The music selection did have a lot to do with that. The paso song for Kelly was a great samba piece, and they almost danced a samba.

Kelly and Alec and Joey and Ashly seemed caught up in choreography more than the advertised dance. They were entertaining and did good shows, but I recognized foxtrot and paso doble steps in John and Charlotte's routine. I take that back... Joey and Ashly did some excellent basic steps in their Paso, but I guess it was too much "grass" and not enough "flowers" for Len.

Is my view because so far I'm learning for medal tests and haven't been involved in a competition?

BTW, I love paso doble, so I was looking forward to tonight's show.

John

[randomMysh]

jjohnjjr, I completely agree with you.

I'm voting both via phone ANd online :twisted: It's cheating and I don't care, this is the first show that got me voting online and I know who I want to win!
The phone voting took a good fifteen minutes of redialing. Good, people are into this show, maybe they'll start showing up at dances and studios!

[GalacticDancer44M]

How would you rate their progress to a so-called six week wonder Dance Instructor?

Well teachers in a training class are taught to teach, not perform. And they certainly aren't taught to dance Paso or Viennese. They are taught to help wedding couples and other ordinary folk bobbity bop foxtrot around the floor. So in that repect, these celebrities look great. And I am greatly impressed with how far they have come.

Well said, thanks.

I can't help but wonder now, how a new student is put to task to learn the steps of 6-10 dances right off the bat. 20mins on this dance, 20 mins on that dance. I almost wonder if it wouldn't be better to just jump in and try to learn one performance dance routine. This way it would build up your confidence right away and you can focus learning one dance, then move on to learn a new one. I realize the studio likes to expose you to all of the different dances partly to see which ones you prefer. :?

[Vince A]

I'm one of the ones that voted for Kelly and Alec . . . their routine didn't look "routinish" to me, as did John and Charlotte's - which, to me, has always looked routinish. Is there such a word?

I know that John and Charlotte are the crowd favorite, but they are not the two best dancers . . . John still has a lot of Newcomer/Novice "looks" - kind of a marching prance at times, whereas Kelly has vastly improved, and has lost most of her Newcomer/Novice look.

[tacad]

Kelly looks to me to be the better dancer. She's crossed over the beginner line when someone internalizes dancing and it comes from within rather than just doing what's been taught. She's made it hers now.

[discovery]

The music was horrendous for Kelly & Alec and also Joey & Ashly. I feel that the music gave John & Charlotte an unfair advantage in the Paso Doble. I mean I'm all for being creative in what you can dance to a given piece and if it weren't a competition the music selection wouldn't bother me so much. Eye of the Tiger??? Yes it's intense but it doesn't have any latin flavor and there are no highlights. And while kelly & alec's music was at least latin flavored it was a samba and also had no highlights. Between the judges and the music selection the show does seem a little rigged at times.

My ranking for this weeks competition:

1. John & Charlotte
2. Joey & Ashly
3. Kelly & Alec

I feel like this week the voting is particularly difficult because, while somewhat true in previous weeks, you are not really voting for who you felt danced the best *this* week but who you want to win the overall competition. I think it would be cool if Kelly won because of the transformation she's made, but I think John danced much better this week. It's a hard decision. In any case, I voted for John & Charlotte because he has a great attitude and has been dancing really great overall especially for a male student.

I'm curious how the scoring will turn out next week. Will they keep the same ranking system? If Kelly gets the popular vote and John gets the judges vote, it will be a tie right? In that case, the scoring explanation says the person with the lowest public vote will be eliminated. If Kelly does in fact have the majority public vote, it seems like she will be the winner regardless of how the judges vote next week.

With regard to the American vs. International Foxtrot, it seems like the criteria for the dance should have been laid out a little more clearly. That being said what judge doesn't want to see a little more closed work?

[Big10]

<==ALERT AGAIN: NON-BALLROOM INTRUDER MAKING COMMENT 8)

I'm one of the ones that voted for Kelly and Alec . . . their routine didn't look "routinish" to me, as did John and Charlotte's - which, to me, has always looked routinish. Is there such a word?
I don't know if there's such a word, but I understand what you're saying. Actually, ALL of the dances for everybody since the shows started have "looked" like routines to me (which they are, of course). However, at this stage in their development, I do get the impression that Kelly would be the most entertaining to watch if she and a partner were given a song to freestyle. I've been totally impressed with John's posture, facial expressions, and ability to capture the character of each dance -- but it always seems like he's just doing an excellent job of following a script. Kelly doesn't have the facial expressions, but she's the one who most looks like she's truly dancing.

I've been very impressed with Kelly's "blossoming" as a dancer, and I think the intro video this week (showing her determination and tough daily schedule) will only enhance her popularity. John and Charlotte have been very consistent and did the best routine again here in Week 5, but Kelly has really closed the gap. So, like Vince A, I voted for Kelly and Alec. I've just really liked Kelly's improvement, and her dance skill is now close enough to John's that I don't think it's unfair for her to win. Honestly, I think that the members of the last two couples are all just glad to make the finals, so I doubt any "loser" will look as emotional as Rachel Hunter did last week and Ashly did this week. (Geez, this week it even looked like Lisa Canning was about to cry after Joey & Ashly lost.)

As a final note, it would have been a REALLY interesting final if Joey & Ashly had gone up against Kelly & Alec. I got the feeling that Ashly's show of spunk would have netted a bunch of extra audience votes. Joey & Ashly were also extremely entertaining, even if they didn't show much "fox trot." (I also think that the music selection for their Fox Trot, in particular, was among the worst for this whole season.)

[Laura]

Sorry, I still can't stand to look at Kelly. I was noticing in the Paso that she was falling forward over her feet. Not merely maintaining the Paso posture, which is forward, but actually falling forward when she was moving forward solo (i.e. not supported by Alec).

That said, oh yes she has improved so much -- and this week she finally got her arms to do something useful -- but she started out the 2nd worst to me (with Evander being the worst), so she's been able to show the most improvement. Well, good for her for sticking in there and everything, but I really really want John & Charlotte to win. I called in my 5 votes right after the show!!!!

To tell you the truth, I thought Joey & Ashly had the best Paso of the night. They had weird music BUT Ashly put together a routine that actually looked like Paso. They had highlights and everything, it was very well done. John & Charlotte's was completely classic and competition-ready. Alec & Kelly's looked like samba. Maybe that's because the music they ended up with sounded like samba. The worst part for me was that she was writhing all over the place again, which is not what I expect when I see Paso, but maybe I haven't watched enough Latin dancing and styles have changed? And then there was that rumba, I mean foxtrot. Whatever. John & Charlotte definitely had that. Joey & Ashly's foxtrot was definitely entertaining, and they showed the theme this time through the music and both their costumes. It worked for me as a show number even if Len Goodman didn't like it so much.

My prediction: Kelly will win it all without actually winning the judge's vote any of the weeks, including next week. People love her because she's hot (really????), people love her because she's a fighter, people love her because she's on their favorite soap, people love her because she is the underdog.

But maybe John will win. I can hope! I hate to say this but I see it as a battle between classic dancing and flash and trash.

[smoozer]

I thought that Alec did a marvalous job with what he had to work with in the way of music. A true paso to that would have looked weird. I must be going deaf as it sounded closer to mambo/salsa than a samba.

Ditto what every one has said about the improvement of all the couples. Absolutly amazing.

[Big10]

I see it as a battle between classic dancing and flash and trash.
"Trash"??? Come on now! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Think whatever you want about Kelly as a person (and honestly I had never heard of her before DWTS started, so I had no preconceived notions), but she is doing very well as an amateur dancer. I also think it's crucial to keep in mind that Alec is doing the choreography AND Kelly is the follower. I don't even know how much choice she has in her costuming.

Of the 6 "stars" who began the show, Kelly is the only one with a currently ongoing gig, and this week's practice/intro video showed how much she has had to work each day over the past several weeks. I know that her "rumbalicious" and "deer trot" comments reveal a silly sense of humor, but Kelly obviously has a TON of discipline and dedication to improve her dancing the way she has, while keeping up with her soap opera schedule.

With all of that in mind, the "trash" comment strikes me as completely out of line, and a bit catty.

[discovery]

With all of that in mind, the "trash" comment strikes me as completely out of line, and a bit catty.

Just putting it out there, I'm not sure what Laura meant, but "flash and trash" is a common expression in the dance world. Of course in every day english if you call someone trash it has a lot worse connotation than what I think Laura meant here. The expression is used to describe dancing that appears flashy, exciting, or difficult, especially to the untrained eye, but that lacks basic quality.

[mamboqueen]

I'm with you, Laura, completely. Kelly's paso was a big ICK for me. Yes, the music was dreadful (how could they even call that a paso is beyond me), but if I shut the music off and watched her, I would have NEVER guessed that was Paso. The other 2 couples clearly exuded the character of the dance. To me, it is the one latin dance that exemplifies the most drama and character. Blech, blech, blech. Her body was just moving, without much control, all over the place in both of her dances. When they were foxtrotting, he looked like he was literally flinging her.

John, in my view, deserves to win.

[redhead]

I think that Joey did a much better job in both dances then Kelly did. Kelly's foxtrot did not look like a foxtrot to me, and her Paso looked like samba. Was she so busy working that Alec decided to "re-use" moves she already knows (since they did samba previously)? Plus, she's a follower...
Anyway, I think ABC wanted to keep Kelly in the show because of the ratings (isn't she the one who has many fans?), so Joey was the one to go. I don't like the guy, but I felt he was robbed.
John has my vote

[pygmalion]

I think that Joey did a much better job in both dances then Kelly did. Kelly's foxtrot did not look like a foxtrot to me, and her Paso looked like samba. Was she so busy working that Alec decided to "re-use" moves she already knows (since they did samba previously)? Plus, she's a follower...
Anyway, I think ABC wanted to keep Kelly in the show because of the ratings (isn't she the one who has many fans?), so Joey was the one to go. I don't like the guy, but I felt he was robbed.
John has my vote

Agreed. I didn't like Kelly, but I had a feeling she was going to stick around to the very end. :?

[cl5814]

To be perfectly honest (while hopefully not hurting anyone's feelings) I don't think it matters much who wins, from a ballroom perspective. Never has.

What I care about now is whather this show is making a positive impact on the image/attractiveness of ballroom dance in the US. 8) :D

I just read in the latest Dance Beat publication that Arthur Murray studios claim a 20 % increase in students since the show started.

[mamboqueen]

And out of that, how many are men hoping to see a wardrobe malfunction in person?? *LOL*

[Katarzyna]

I talked to the head of my department in the elevator this morning. He said that he watched the show last night and really enjoyed it.. :)

He said that his wife and him decided to go to some local studio and take lessons starting next week :D :D

[flyingwolf]

Kelly looks to me to be the better dancer. She's crossed over the beginner line when someone internalizes dancing and it comes from within rather than just doing what's been taught. She's made it hers now.
Kelly the better dancer? are you kidding me or just trying to be sarcastic? The only eye-catching thing in her dance is her outfit, and I don't even mean that in a good way, and dancing foxtrot wearing a bra????? she should have been disqualified the second she showed up with that outfit. She is not doing just what's been taught because she still CAN'T, that's why all the choreography for her dance skipped all the elements of each one of those dances, instead just focused on her 'suxy assets'

And the judges must have been feeling a lot of pressures from Kelly's fans, it became so obvious that night when they said Joey's Foxtrot is not Foxtrot and said nothing about Kelly's Foxtrot being even less Foxtrot and her Paso being nearly Samba -- those judges are losing my respect

[mamboqueen]

I agree FW....there is definitely something up with the judges "suxing" up to Kelly all of a sudden. She is not, IMO, worthy of 9's AT ALL! I mean, overcompensation, or what? And frankly, she has a great body, but I don't think having everything hanging out is necessarily a good thing. Unless of course, you're trying to hide the fact that you can't dance.

Oh, and while I'm on my Kelly rant:

DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR FLIPPIN' HAIR!!!!!!!

[standardgirl]

I talked to the head of my department in the elevator this morning. He said that he watched the show last night and really enjoyed it.. :)

He said that his wife and him decided to go to some local studio and take lessons starting next week :D :D

:D :D
Two of my co-workers are also very interested in taking some dance classes after watching the shows, and knowing that I do ballroom dancing.
But I still think they are more iterested in the whole package (meaning the dress, and makeups, etc) not just purely dancing itself.

They told me that they want to go to some studio and wear a skirt/dress and learn to dance......

[Katarzyna]

Well all of those are good signs anyway. People are at least thinking about ballroom since all the shows, movies and articles showed up...

[alemana]

desire to costume oneself has always been a driver for people wanting to dance... that doesn't worry me. whatever gets them in the door might be very different from what keeps them dancing.

do people think the amateurs have much say in their costuming? i don't. i guess i assumed that the producers put kelly into a series of stomach-baring costumes because she has a great body, period. she wears that stuff because she can.

at the Yankee two weeks ago, i participated in the taping of an upcoming ballroom reality show for TLC. i assure you every detail was totally scripted and controlled by an army of producers and PAs. that did not surprise me - when i watch these shows i don't 'fall for' the illusion of reality, 'fairness' or spontaneity, and it always surprises me when others do.

[standardgirl]

at the Yankee two weeks ago, i participated in the taping of an upcoming ballroom reality show for TLC. i assure you every detail was totally scripted and controlled by an army of producers and PAs. that did not surprise me - when i watch these shows i don't 'fall for' the illusion of reality, 'fairness' or spontaneity, and it always surprises me when others do.

Yeah.....I was there as well.
The ballroom looks full of people in camara, but in reality, only the side of ballroom being filmed was full, the other three sides were mostly empty. Then the audience were told when to clap, when to congrat the winner, etc, etc. They also put the ladies with customes in the front rows so that when people watch it on TV, everyone will look so dressed up......

This is just how things work in the entertainment industry anywaz...not a big suprise.

I, too, don't think Kelly has much control over what to wear.
If you are a resposible and good actor/model, etc, you do whatever you are told to do and that's just part of your job. Of course, if you are a superstar, you might have some control over what you don't want to do, but I don't think Kelly is close to being there.

[Larinda McRaven]

it became so obvious that night when they said Joey's Foxtrot is not Foxtrot and said nothing about Kelly's Foxtrot being even less Foxtrot and her Paso being nearly Samba -- those judges are losing my respect

I definately agree

[redhead]

dancing foxtrot wearing a bra?????
In your studio ladies *don't* wear a bra dancing foxtrot?
oh my... :lol:

[flyingwolf]

dancing foxtrot wearing a bra?????
In your studio ladies *don't* wear a bra dancing foxtrot?
oh my... :lol:
...wearing a bra ONLY, M-kay?

[redhead]

I know :lol:

[Katarzyna]

dancing foxtrot wearing a bra?????
In your studio ladies *don't* wear a bra dancing foxtrot?
oh my... :lol:
...wearing a bra ONLY, M-kay?

Well, many of the Espen outfits are not supposed to be worn with a bra :oops:

[flyingwolf]

dancing foxtrot wearing a bra?????
In your studio ladies *don't* wear a bra dancing foxtrot?
oh my... :lol:
...wearing a bra ONLY, M-kay?

Well, many of the Espen outfits are not supposed to be worn with a bra :oops:
OK, I take it back and stand for my original post :D

[Katarzyna]

dancing foxtrot wearing a bra?????
In your studio ladies *don't* wear a bra dancing foxtrot?
oh my... :lol:
...wearing a bra ONLY, M-kay?

Well, many of the Espen outfits are not supposed to be worn with a bra :oops:
OK, I take it back and stand for my original post :D :lol:

[redhead]

Well that bra issue just might give Kelly an unfair advantage over John... Unless he loses a couple of more pounds... remember what Charlotte said :lol:

[Shannon]

I dont' really think we need to see John in a Speedo. :shock: I also didn't like Kelly's outfit for the Foxtrot.

The whole situation does make me wonder who picks out the costumes. They didn't seem to be dressing any of the female pros in similarly revealing costumes. Wonder if Kelly's Bunny background has anything to do with it.

[mamboqueen]

Watch....next week she'll have ears and a tail :)

[Porfirio Landeros]

who picked the music for the couples?Early on, I heard from insiders that the dancers got to pick their music from a list. Now, if the list is crappy or if you don't get first pick, you coud end up with a lame song. Or in some cases, the dancers themselves could be making lame choices, but I believe there are some choices left up to the couples.

I kind of liked the Eye of the Tiger bit... I guess it's the Rocky/Macho/80's appeal coming through.

[tacad]

Kelly looks to me to be the better dancer. She's crossed over the beginner line when someone internalizes dancing and it comes from within rather than just doing what's been taught. She's made it hers now.
Kelly the better dancer? are you kidding me or just trying to be sarcastic? The only eye-catching thing in her dance is her outfit, and I don't even mean that in a good way, and dancing foxtrot wearing a bra????? she should have been disqualified the second she showed up with that outfit. She is not doing just what's been taught because she still CAN'T, that's why all the choreography for her dance skipped all the elements of each one of those dances, instead just focused on her 'suxy assets'

And the judges must have been feeling a lot of pressures from Kelly's fans, it became so obvious that night when they said Joey's Foxtrot is not Foxtrot and said nothing about Kelly's Foxtrot being even less Foxtrot and her Paso being nearly Samba -- those judges are losing my respect
:lol: See my post below.

[tacad]

In retrospect I tend to agree that John is the better dancer. I don't know too much but I'm sure his weight was where it was supposed to be and basic technique was better than Kelly's. However, I found her dances to be more interesting, more confident, more exciting. And in my honest opinion, this is why ballroom will never catch on in the US at least. We want Kelly not John. Even I, who practice technique faithfully am in it to be Kelly (metaphorically speaking ) not John. I'm hoping that my patience will pay off eventually. And it already is. But this won't work with the general public. As long as ballroom emphasizes John, it won't. I still suggest that Kelly could be the introduction to John. But it won't change, IMHO.

[Kitty]

Here is my very different opinion:
I couldn't stand watching Kelly, and I really enjoyed watching John.


he had better posture, better balance and looked like he knew what he was doing. His movements were purposeful and finished. And I agree with swan (below) that John and Charlotte were most together.

she looked off balance, overly hectic (hair might have contributed to this impression), impresize with her steps and movements and with bad posture (as one of the judges commented she needed to lift the ribcage up).


My impression was of course greatly affected by the quality of the pro. Charlotte is definitely the best dancer and teacher out there.

[swan]

I know that John and Charlotte are the crowd favorite, but they are not the two best dancers . . .

EXCUSE ME? Charolotte is arguably one of the BEST lady dancers alive!

I actually don't like John's posture - he kept looking at Charlotte :) But he did a darn good reverse wave! Now, that's HARD to do for a guy! They are the most 'together' couple. I'd say at any rate, you need to look at a couple for the dancing, not just 1 person. And John/Charlotte are definitely the most 'connected' couple & a joy to watch. I actually enjoyed their Paso even more than Foxtrot, even though Foxtrot was really Charlotte's dance. But the Paso really brought out John's Fernando character :)

Joey's got big posture problem as well in foxtrot. Paso was much better.

Kelly - I actually thought her feather step (the very first one) was not shabby. I was expecting much worse :)

The Paso for Kelly, ai-yai-yai...hate the music and not impressed w/ Kelly/Alec's dancing.

I actually don't have an issue w/ Kelly's bra top outfit. I thought it looked rather stunning :) Well, not for a real ballroom comp, but for TV? No problem!

[redhead]

Here is my very different opinion:
I couldn't stand watching Kelly, and I really enjoyed watching John.


he had better posture, better balance and looked like he knew what he was doing. His movements were purposeful and finished.

she looked off balance, overly hectic, impresize with her steps and movements and with bad posture (as one of the judges commented she needed to lift the ribcage up)
agreed 100%

[standardgirl]

I like Kelly - note, this is not to say that I don't like John.
I think John is the best, and I have voted for him every week since the very beginning!

I did not know Kelly before this show. At the beginning of this show, I thought she looked so bad. But later, I start to like Kelly a lot, and I want her to be in the final two. In fact, I want to see John and Kelly in the final! woohoo :D Kelly has that "special something" all the actors/actresses wanted - she knows how to catch the audience and make that spcial connection. Kelly is very beautiful, sexy, and dancing something that I will never be able to do in my life. :D

I still want John to win though, since I want this to be a ballroom competition, and John is for sure dancing much better!

[Swingolder]

DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR FLIPPIN' HAIR!!!!!!!

As a non-ballroom dancer, I like watching Kelly's hair fly around. Someone in an earlier week had also complained about Rachels hair. I don't like the slicked back bun do of the professional dancers. I know that is the way most dancers fix their hair for competitions, but for a general studio audience... Kelly's loose hair gave her a "this is fun" look.
And it was very appealing.

[Larinda McRaven]

I actually don't have an issue w/ Kelly's bra top outfit. I thought it looked rather stunning :) Well, not for a real ballroom comp, but for TV? No problem!

Half of the American Smooth finalists barely wear anything more than a bra, several of them have worn an outfit almost identical to Kelly's. So it is really nothing new to those who are "in the know" with the upper ranks of the American Smooth division.

Although I guess it was probably shocking to others who assume that the identity of Smooth/Standard is forever strictly tied to the classic Fred and Ginger look.

And no one is complaining that Charlottes Paso dress was really just a smooth outfit... so what's the uproar that someones Smooth outfit looked Latin?

[johns]

Last night I watched the show with a couple from my studio.

During Kelly's Foxtrot, one of them said, "Oh, I can't watch much more of this. Look at her go - clunk, clunk, clunk. It's like someone told her to step onto her foot heel-toe, but she didn't understand she needed to roll through her foot. "

Later in the show, I was asked, "Do you know who Kelly reminds me of? A brown-haired Tanya Harding. There's just no class there." Watch your knees, John - *thwak* :shock:

The rest of our conversations mirrored the discussion here quite well - most of the music was attrocious, we loved watching John & Charlotte's dancing, the reverse wave wasn't lost on my friends (like it was on me - it was beautiful, but I haven't learned that yet and can't appreciate what it takes to execute well), Kelley improved a lot but still isn't really dancing smooth well, etc.

Was it likely that Kelley's "Eye of the Tiger, baby!" comment was planned, given that Joey & Ashley danced their Paso to Eye of the Tiger?

[Vince A]

I know that John and Charlotte are the crowd favorite, but they are not the two best dancers . . .

EXCUSE ME? Charolotte is arguably one of the BEST lady dancers alive!

Granted, Charlotte is ONE of the best dancers alive, but I think I wrote "THEY are not the TWO best dancers." Meaning, as a pair.

John's footwork looks very much like the Novice he is . . .

[chachachacat]

I voted for John and Charlotte, as I have every week, except for the one week I tried to help save Rachel.
Their routines make me smile. They are clearly the best couple.
Best technique, best performance every week.

Yes, Kelly has improved a lot, but I would have cut her the first week, then goofy, stompy Joey. Finally, that little brat let his teacher be in charge and they danced the best they ever have! I wouldn't have wanted to work with him and his ego!

[tacad]

Kelly vs. John

Point of view 1: Sloppy vs correct

Point of view 2: Vibrant vs wooden

[Infosaturated]

FYI's Charlotte's foxtrot outfit was also a bra and skirt. It's just that the center of the skirt was tied to the center of the bra.

I struggled over my vote this week but came down in favor of Kelly for a few reasons:

John got the tango instead of the jive. I think he would have bombed with the jive.

I was very disappointed that Kelly and Alec didn't get to dance to the paso doble music. You get samba music, it's going to look like a samba.

Throughout the competition John and Charlotte have always been given the best music to dance to with the exception of the v. waltz. That gave them a huge advantage. To reserve the paso doble music for them was outrageously unfair. They should have all had it, or none of them should have had it.

When I remove the advantages of music and dance selection given to John and Charlotte, I don't think they are better. I would have liked to see them try to do a paso doble to "Eye of the Tiger" in comparison to either Joey or Kelly performing to the paso doble music.

We don't get to vote on next week's pieces but as I understand it there will be a non-ballroom piece that is dancer's choice. I most look forward to seeing Kelly and Alec's performance in that number.

I don't think either Kelly or John is "The Best", I think they are strong in different areas. John is the favorite with ballroom dancers because Charlotte focused on the basics and they had the music to show that off. They will get the traditional vote.

Kelly (in my opinion) did far more difficult moves. I'd like to see John try to do the splits. Give them both another 6 months of training and I think Kelly would far surpass John. Therefore, in my mind, Kelly is the better dancer. Kelly will get the non-tradtional vote.

[flyingwolf]

Kelly vs. John

Point of view 1: Sloppy vs correct

Point of view 2: Vibrant vs wooden

vibrant? I can only the 'bra' part :lol:

[alemana]

kelly is so wooden i cannot BELIEVE she is a professional working actress.

[tacad]

Her facial expressions are wooden but not the rest of her dancing.

[tacad]

Kelly vs. John

Point of view 1: Sloppy vs correct

Point of view 2: Vibrant vs wooden

vibrant? I can only the 'bra' part :lol:
:lol: Was that planned? I wonder.

[flyingwolf]

FYI's Charlotte's foxtrot outfit was also a bra and skirt. It's just that the center of the skirt was tied to the center of the bra.

Kelly (in my opinion) did far more difficult moves. I'd like to see John try to do the splits. Give them both another 6 months of training and I think Kelly would far surpass John. Therefore, in my mind, Kelly is the better dancer. Kelly will get the non-tradtional vote.
difficult moves? 1st of all, getting thrown around by alec is not difficult, it is only because she is small and light and possible doesn't eat so they can do that. 2 of all, split doesn't mean good dancing, any little pre-puberty girl can do that, but is it dancing?

[redhead]

Kelly (in my opinion) did far more difficult moves. I'd like to see John try to do the splits. Give them both another 6 months of training and I think Kelly would far surpass John. Therefore, in my mind, Kelly is the better dancer. Kelly will get the non-tradtional vote.
difficult moves? 1st of all, getting thrown around by alec is not difficult, it is only because she is small and light and possible doesn't eat so they can do that.
Next week, let's have Alec throw John (in speedos) around and see what happens :lol: . Gee I'm silly today
Actually, we might be able to see who is the better dancer if John and Kelly danced with each other

[tacad]

I was thinking we could put John's head on Kelly's body. That would be vibrant!

[Kitty]

I know that John and Charlotte are the crowd favorite, but they are not the two best dancers . . .

EXCUSE ME? Charolotte is arguably one of the BEST lady dancers alive!

Granted, Charlotte is ONE of the best dancers alive, but I think I wrote "THEY are not the TWO best dancers." Meaning, as a pair.

John's footwork looks very much like the Novice he is . . .

John and Charlotte footwork was a lot better than Alec and Kelly thats for sure.

Most people complement john and Charlotte specifically on how they look as a pair. Alec and Kelly looked disconnected a lot of the time.
John looked to me like a good leader: in charge of the situation and communicating well with his follower.

footwork is more than just heel and toe. footwork is connected to other things, producing them and being produced. Footwork depends on how you are taking the step: how you lower, rise and where the weight is. Kelly just didn't fundamentally get it how to use her feet in standard/smooth foxtrot. While, at least comparing to Kelly, John did.

[BrookeErin]

as much as I hate to hijack the hijack.....

My biggest observation this week is that I think the producers are *really* paying attention to the fans. I think they are reading some fan site (maybe us? :shock: ). There is talk about Joey pushing Ashly around and suddenly, she's the boss again AND she fiesty with the judges. (Btw, I think their music fit well for their character or at least the one the producers have been pushing). The subject of John and Charlotte being a bit "touchy" and "friendly" was discussed and I haven't seen that since. Sometimes, it feels like the show is a reply to what we have been discussing. I'm not paranoid, the producers are more likely to be reading other sites, but this is the only one I read... I'm just assumig other people are saying similar things.
On the same note, I think the producers wanted us to feel sorry for Kelly...even more votes for her. I think in the paso, Alec was really outshining her, but he was fun to watch.
John and Charlotte are still my favorites and defintely have my votes!

[DancingMommy]

Nah... they are probably reading here.... ;)

Chek THIS (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&biw=1003&q=%22dancing+with+the+stars%22+%22dance+forums%22) out. ;)

[pygmalion]

DF rocks! :D

[flyingwolf]

I hope the show adds this segment:
before the show, the audience members who want to pariticipate put their numbers in a box
in the middle of the show or at the end before the result, one or 2 numbers are drawn then the 2 people get to dance with 2 pros of their choice

that will be so cool.... but probably will make some people look bad, for example, Kelly.... :twisted:

[pygmalion]

Depending on the audience members who volunteer/get chosen. :shock: :lol:

[Ashley]

I'm really late here, but...
John/Charlotte: Lucky for them for getting good music! A solid performance, as usual. John has gotta keep himself from looking at Charlotte!
Joey/Ashly: Aww, I feel bad for them. I'm at the point where I feel bad for anyone who leaves, but I think Ashly was right to get angry. In my opinion, they have consistently done good performances, however, Len and Bruno seem determined to give them very "meh" comments. I don't think they're worthy of a standing ovation, but they receive very little praise. Also, I think that Len is really inconsistent! Saying that Rachel's performance epitomized the samba, and Joey's foxtrot wasn't a Foxtrot! Huh? Some of the sambas last week were just...strange. Carrie-Ann is by far the most consistent judge.
Kelly/Alec: It irks me how the host commented that there was nowhere to put a mike on Kelly for the second time (yes, we can see that her outfit is small!) and focused a bit too much on the wardrobe malfunction of last week. Kelly has definitely improved; by the way, where are these splits coming from? How come she didn't do them before? That just came out of nowhere. However, to me, John/Charlotte are in the "mastery" stage of the routine, where they can focus on the finer points of the routine rather than just steps. To me, Kelly looks like she's in the "learning" stage, where she still has to think about what comes next and what to do, and it shows on her face.

[Vince A]

Ashley . . . you are never late here in the DF . . . we appreciate everyone's 2 cents . . .

Funny though . . . how you say nearly the same things that I said, yet you said them in favor of one couple . . . the opposite of the couple I chose.

I guess that is why we have three judges there . . . nine judges in the Supreme Court, etc. I'm glad we live in such a great country!

We all see things differently. We see what we want to see. We see what appeals to us.

As long as we are forever free to do that . . .

Sorry I went off topic . . . I just all to know that we like to hear what everyone is thinking about.

[Infosaturated]

The split comes from Alec teaching Kelly how to stretch. She still can't do a full split but she was getting very close this week I think. I am guessing she is still around 6 inches away, but I am very impressed she got that close.

Kelly isn't choosing her outfits. The production staff works with designs to shine. Kelly didn't even see her paso doble costume until the day of the show.

It's very clear to me that all the couples were typecast and forced into predefined boxes.

[tanz15]

Kelly (in my opinion) did far more difficult moves. I'd like to see John try to do the splits

Sure, but then it would only be fair to ask Kelly to lead. I don't agree that Kelly had far more difficult moves. Superficially it may seem so, but a leader is responsible for his own movement and to a large degree also for his partner's. This is why male pros have such a huge advantage over female pros when it comes to pro-am competitions. The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.

The leader has in general a more difficult job than a follower for the first 5-10 years of development (if not always). Call me a chauvinist, but I'll bet that most dancers would agree with that.

[DanceMentor]

Wanted to note that our studio is getting LOTS of new folks now, and many are saying it is because they saw Dancing with the Stars. :)

[flyingwolf]

Wanted to note that our studio is getting LOTS of new folks now, and many are saying it is because they saw Dancing with the Stars. :)
what kind of age group? Sometimes I take group lessons with people 20-30 years older than me and I just got so afraid that I will break someone or 2...

[Vince A]

The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.
Oh come on now, tanz15 . . . we all know that many female Pros "backlead" their students from beginning to whenever the male Ams can do it for themselves.

[flyingwolf]

The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.
Oh come on now, tanz15 . . . we all know that many female Pros "backlead" their students from beginning to whenever the male Ams can do it for themselves.That's true, but can female pros lift or drag themselves? there is so much more that male pros can do than female pros

[Vince A]

The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.
Oh come on now, tanz15 . . . we all know that many female Pros "backlead" their students from beginning to whenever the male Ams can do it for themselves.That's true, but can female pros lift or drag themselves? there is so much more that male pros can do than female pros
Agree . . . 100% . . .

[DanceMentor]

Wanted to note that our studio is getting LOTS of new folks now, and many are saying it is because they saw Dancing with the Stars. :)
what kind of age group? Sometimes I take group lessons with people 20-30 years older than me and I just got so afraid that I will break someone or 2...

Well, the studio is located in an area where there are lots of middle aged people (and big houses ;)). So to answer your question, not old people, nor young people, they are middle aged. :)

I'm afraid I may doing more teaching and less DFing soon. :)

[Infosaturated]

The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.
Oh come on now, tanz15 . . . we all know that many female Pros "backlead" their students from beginning to whenever the male Ams can do it for themselves.That's true, but can female pros lift or drag themselves? there is so much more that male pros can do than female pros

Right, but in this case the numbers are choreographed so the female pros don't really need to be "led". They are creating the choreography. I am not suggesting that leading isn't a challenge, even in a choreographed number. However, in the context of this contest, I don't think it is all that and more in comparision to the challenges the women are facing.

Kelly, in the practice video, was definitely feeling the pain of striving to be able to do a split. Doing it reasonably gracefully in a dance is not an easy thing to accomplish. I am a woman and I was never able to do the splits, and I am naturally flexible, I just never worked at it. The girls who can have stretched their muscles for it, and maintained it from there. That's not Kelly. She learned it as a dance move.

I used to skate and when I first started getting lifted and doing dips it was very difficult. It goes against instinct not to fight it, not to grab on for dear life. It is not easy for the female to learn her part in a dip and do it gracefully. It's not just the male hauling the female around.

[pygmalion]

I'm afraid I may doing more teaching and less DFing soon. :)

That's a good thing. 8) :D Meaning, DFing is great, but, if this show generates a lot of interest in dancing, that's great too. 8) :D

[tanz15]

The male pros can hold their ladies up and drag them around, but the female pros can't do likewise for their men.
Oh come on now, tanz15 . . . we all know that many female Pros "backlead" their students from beginning to whenever the male Ams can do it for themselves.That's true, but can female pros lift or drag themselves? there is so much more that male pros can do than female pros

Right, but in this case the numbers are choreographed so the female pros don't really need to be "led". They are creating the choreography. I am not suggesting that leading isn't a challenge, even in a choreographed number. However, in the context of this contest, I don't think it is all that and more in comparision to the challenges the women are facing.

It may not be ALL that and more, but choreographing routines specifically does not mean that the leader can't make a huge difference. I was made a believer in the "awesome power of the male pro" when I watched a pro-am couple at my studio (pro guy, am girl). Together they looked really very good, but apart? The girl looked like she had started yesterday. She couldn't take two steps without almost falling over, she clearly didn't know what alignments/footwork she was supposed to be using in those figures, and she has unbelievably bad posture. And since they had practiced this over and over, I think she knew what the routine was supposed to be, unless she was a complete idiot.

Not to knock pro-ams (who get enough heat from self-proclaimed "serious" dancers anyways), but a good male pro can make much of not much. After that day, I respected leaders so much more, and I've seen this phenomenon multiple times since then.

To be fair, I think the overcompensating leader (for lack of a better term) can do his overcompensating more easily in standard than Latin, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: let me say that this observation is not meant to suggest that this degree of leading is happening in DWTS, just that it can and does happen frequently.

[DancingMommy]

Wanted to note that our studio is getting LOTS of new folks now, and many are saying it is because they saw Dancing with the Stars. :)
what kind of age group? Sometimes I take group lessons with people 20-30 years older than me and I just got so afraid that I will break someone or 2...

Well, the studio is located in an area where there are lots of middle aged people (and big houses ;)). So to answer your question, not old people, nor young people, they are middle aged. :)

I'm afraid I may doing more teaching and less DFing soon. :)

Are we referring to ourselves, lol? Middle-aged, lol.... I can't believe we are staring down the barrel at that....

[mamboqueen]

Middle-aged, lol.... I can't believe we are staring down the barrel at that....

I'm chuckling because I *almost* asked what middle aged was, and then decided I'd much rather be ignorant! Yeeeikeeees!

[cornutt]

Kelly, in the practice video, was definitely feeling the pain of striving to be able to do a split. Doing it reasonably gracefully in a dance is not an easy thing to accomplish.

Well, I think the point that the other posters wree trying to make is that they don't want to see ballroom dancing degrade into a purely physical contest, a sentiment I fully agree with. You mentioned skating, and unfortunately amateur figure skating has turned into a perfect bad example: Whoever does the most quad jumps wins. So now you see "routines" that consist of a bunch of jumps separated by 15-20 seconds' worth of skating aimlessly around in circles, with some kind of spin at the end (when the skater is out of breath, and generally ignored by the judges) to keep up the pretense. Boooorrrrring. :roll: Ballroom should involve all of strength, tone, posture, coordination, and the mental aspects that go with them.

[delamusica]

Ok - so I'm way late to this . . .

I actually saw this show for the first time last time it was on - and only the second half! But only seeing the paso, I have to say - I was so angry! I thought that Joey's paso was simple and clean and looked like paso . . . Kelly was just gyrating around looking like she was about to fall over. And I think the only reason the judges haven't been criticizing Kelly's footwork is because no one is looking at her feet . . .

Ugh.

I was seriously frustrated. But oh well - I guess they're all doing pretty well for how short of a time they've been dancing. I'll definitely have to be sure to catch next week.

[DanceMentor]

Well, I think the point that the other posters were trying to make is that they don't want to see ballroom dancing degrade into a purely physical contest, a sentiment I fully agree with. You mentioned skating, and unfortunately amateur figure skating has turned into a perfect bad example: Whoever does the most quad jumps wins. So now you see "routines" that consist of a bunch of jumps separated by 15-20 seconds' worth of skating aimlessly around in circles, with some kind of spin at the end (when the skater is out of breath, and generally ignored by the judges) to keep up the pretense. Boooorrrrring. :roll: Ballroom should involve all of strength, tone, posture, coordination, and the mental aspects that go with them.

I love the way you made this point. I remember in Dance WIth Me it seemed like whenever you saw the ballroom dancing clips there were always an exessive amount of pivots, as if "that" was what ballroom dancing was about.

[Big10]

With all of that in mind, the "trash" comment strikes me as completely out of line, and a bit catty.

Just putting it out there, I'm not sure what Laura meant, but "flash and trash" is a common expression in the dance world. Of course in every day english if you call someone trash it has a lot worse connotation than what I think Laura meant here. The expression is used to describe dancing that appears flashy, exciting, or difficult, especially to the untrained eye, but that lacks basic quality.
If I'm mistaking a standard ballroom idiom, then I apologize. (Like I've noted many times before, I'm not a ballroom person, merely an intruder. :wink: ) Anyway, it just seemed like the standard meaning of "trash" was being applied, given Laura's opening words to that very same post:
Sorry, I still can't stand to look at Kelly.

[Infosaturated]

Kelly, in the practice video, was definitely feeling the pain of striving to be able to do a split. Doing it reasonably gracefully in a dance is not an easy thing to accomplish.

Well, I think the point that the other posters wree trying to make is that they don't want to see ballroom dancing degrade into a purely physical contest, a sentiment I fully agree with. You mentioned skating, and unfortunately amateur figure skating has turned into a perfect bad example: Whoever does the most quad jumps wins. So now you see "routines" that consist of a bunch of jumps separated by 15-20 seconds' worth of skating aimlessly around in circles, with some kind of spin at the end (when the skater is out of breath, and generally ignored by the judges) to keep up the pretense. Boooorrrrring. :roll: Ballroom should involve all of strength, tone, posture, coordination, and the mental aspects that go with them.[/quote]

Absolutely, and I suspect ballroom would benefit by the changes in judging in skating which now make a bunch of jumps no longer an effective means of winning.

It's just that I have heard male-lead emphasized to the point where is seems like there is no point in being a female pro at all, after all, as long as the man can lead well the woman doesn't need any skill.

I disagree with that sentiment. I think there are areas of dance that are difficult for women achieve that the male ams haven't needed to achieve. The male ams are not fully leading. The female pros have been backleading (at least that is what I have read here). I have to watch my tape over and over to try to keep my eyes on the male am because the female pros are so entrancing to watch.

Because the women are "the picture" the female ams have to look credible all the time, and try to do flashy moves. That means the split, and spins, and being dipped. If they were just expected to do bronze moves then yes the male pros could "cover" for them.

For example, the jive where Ashly ends doing a split with her leg straight up over Joey's shoulder was an incredible finish. All Joey had to do was stand there. When the female ams get on the floor, they may not have to lead, and being lead may be an advantage, but having to do the flashy moves offsets it, and so does having to wear heels when you are not used to it. It completely throws your balance.

Maybe in bronze level competition the woman has the advantage because she doesn't have to lead, but in this contest I don't think it is an advantage. In this competition I think the women ams are facing just as many challenges as the men are.

[Rugby]

The judges every week had been telling the pros that they wanted to see more basics but each week Ashly kept up the Show Dancing instead. She tried at the end but too little, too late. I kept wondering if she was ever going to clue in! Charlotte did some good solid basics and thus she is still around and Ashly is not. I have to hand it to Joey that he was doing better and was finally holding his posture up better.

[pygmalion]

I have to hand it to Joey that he was doing better and was finally holding his posture up better.

Agreed.

btw, all the couples will be back for the final. Any idea what they're going to do? Watch? Dance? Do a formation? I have no idea. :?

[Chris Stratton]

Finally had a chance to watch the fifth episode.

On the foxtrots: John and Charlotte made a good and somewhat succesfull attempt at an English style foxtrot. Far from perfect, but with things you'd hope to see in an actual ballroom competition, I'm glad the judges rewarded this. On the other hand, I do think they were too harsh with Joey and Ashley for showing us a what can be accomplished in the American/Showdance style of foxtrot in that amount of time. While I'd prefer to see a good English foxtrot (too bad they couldn't use an old video of Charlotte with Andrew Sinkinson for the demo clip) it's not clear to me that what was accomplished towards that goal in the available time is necessarily a superior performance to Joey and Ashley's show number. It's also a little odd from a ballroom perspective to hear the judges who claimed to be looking for classic elements choosing to single out John and Charlotte's footwork for complement - it got the job done, but there were too many footwork errors to highlight it with a complement in a dance that's full development relies so heavily on full foot action. Kelly probably could have done much more characteristic performance if she had not gotten stuck with a pro partner who, while finally attempting some classic figures revealed in their execution his limited understanding of either style of foxtrot. The judge who commented she was a latin dancer might have better directed that remark to Alec.

For the Paso Dobles, John and Charlotte kind of lucked out and survived the latin number in part by getting the only actual Paso Doble music of the three selections. They could have been a little sharper rhythmically and John could have made the arms over head pose look a bit more masculine, but again it was the kind of performance that wouldn't be drastically out of place at a ballroom competition. The other two couples reactions to the uncharacteristic music couldn't have been more different. Alec and Kelly did something between a salsa and a samba, and didn't get called on it (perhaps because those in charge didn't want to be left with two male stars for the final?). In contrast, Joey and Ashly more or less ignored the music and came even closer than John and Charlotte to doing something that would belong in a ballroom comp - turn off the disco music, imagine flamenco percussion, and it all fits.

Advice to the producers:

1) Have actual ballroom/latin dancers approve the music selections. Yes, there may be licensing complications with getting common ballroom music. I bet there's a future film composer in school somewhere who would just love to write you some numbers in appropriate styles and get their work early TV exposure.

2) Use only pros with a proven ability to teach the technique of all 10 dances. Certainly there have to be enough active 10-dance pros out there to choose from?

[randomMysh]

There might be enough 10 dance pros out there, but how many of them would be interested in skipping Blackpool to participate in the show?
Oh yeah, that leads to another note to the producers: do a little research before you schedule the show, will ya? You just had to have it during THE ballroom comp of the year, eh?

[Chris Stratton]

There might be enough 10 dance pros out there, but how many of them would be interested in skipping Blackpool to participate in the show?
Oh yeah, that leads to another note to the producers: do a little research before you schedule the show, will ya? You just had to have it during THE ballroom comp of the year, eh?

Yes, that wasn't great timing. On the other hand, my guess is that (US) 10-dancers are on average less likely to attend blackpool religiously than single style dancers, to some degree in terms of going to watch, and to a much higher degree in terms of going to dance. Since the show is barely touching on the identities of the pros and largely ignoring their histories, it's not like they need famous dance pros - what they do need are effective teachers who can build a lot of skills in a student in a short period of time.

[swan]

There might be enough 10 dance pros out there, but how many of them would be interested in skipping Blackpool to participate in the show?
Oh yeah, that leads to another note to the producers: do a little research before you schedule the show, will ya? You just had to have it during THE ballroom comp of the year, eh?

The problem is the 5 weeks before the premiere, the pros have to dedicate their time as well. W/ that in mind, the show could not air until mid July (all the pros returning from Blackpool & train the stars for 5 weeks). I'm not so sure if summer program on TV works this way. They've got some 'season' schedule thing going there...

There are enough recently retired pros who are good 10 dancers. In fact, it'd be entertaining to see Gary or Diana McDonald being on the show ;)

Anyway, I don't think getting 10 dance coach was the main issue. Even Charlotte pulled it off decently in the latin division. Most European pros are 10 dancers to begin with, and later on in their career, they'd dedicate to 1 style.

The main issue really is the actual celebrities! We need to keep getting big name, popular celebrities to keep this show interesting to general public. A lot of them probably have their own scheduling problem. The more popular the Star is, the more summer projects they have!

As much as I'd like to see the big name ballroom stars, I think the the TV audience would like to see more of the 'Kelly calibre' :)

I agree with Chris that they've got to do better w/ Music selection next time. Samba for one - there're so many good ones & 'hot' ones out there, and what did we get in week 4? They seem to equate Samba w/ Las Vegas show! Ai-Yai-Yai! Paso is difficult, but recently, there're different Paso music, though not popularly known, is still way better than that Eye of the Tiger piece :)

I'd say 50% of the music selection were actually acceptable, even though people think that it's cheesey elevator music or even wedding reception (wasn't that the recent Times article classifying this show as the June Wedding reception?)

[Big10]

In fairness to the producers, I can understand the tension between staying "true" to ballroom competition style, while at the same time making a program that is entertaining to the general audience here in the United States. In this country, the only regular television exposure to ballroom is the stuff shown on public television (not the big-money networks) around New Year's. If you guys didn't talk about Blackpool on this forum, I would have no clue what time of the year that competition happens, because I have seen ZERO mention of it from the major media in the United States.

The tension faced by the producers is evident in the musical choices, as well as the selection of the dancing professionals. There is no doubt in my mind that the professionals were chosen just as much (or more) for their physical appearance versus their teaching skills. The marginal improvement in the celebrities' skill that a better-yet-average-looking teacher could make (especially given such a short period of time), would have much less impact on the ratings than having the best-looking professionals.

[tacad]

Absolutely true Big 10. I would add that there are cool, hip, modern musical selections that would work better than their musical choices. It would have added to Ashley and Joey's paso doble to have a paso doble version of Eye of the Tiger. Or a paso doble version of some other crowd pleasing song. And that would work fine as far as entertaining the American public.

[alemana]

Yeah, for samba there are tons of interesting hip choices. At the Manhattan Rising Star Latin final, Gwen Stefani's "If I Was a Rich Girl" was the samba selection. Loved it.

I saw Van Amstel in the lobby at Manhattan, airily dismissing questions about the show.

[Laura]

With all of that in mind, the "trash" comment strikes me as completely out of line, and a bit catty.

Just putting it out there, I'm not sure what Laura meant, but "flash and trash" is a common expression in the dance world. Of course in every day english if you call someone trash it has a lot worse connotation than what I think Laura meant here. The expression is used to describe dancing that appears flashy, exciting, or difficult, especially to the untrained eye, but that lacks basic quality.
If I'm mistaking a standard ballroom idiom, then I apologize. (Like I've noted many times before, I'm not a ballroom person, merely an intruder. :wink: ) Anyway, it just seemed like the standard meaning of "trash" was being applied, given Laura's opening words to that very same post:
Sorry, I still can't stand to look at Kelly.

Sorry, I've been out of town and so unable to defend myself.

"Flash and trash" in ballroom-speak means flashy steps without solid technique to support them. It means going for big moves like dips and lifts and drags and throwing one or the other partners on the floor rather than fundamental movements that express the basic qualities and characteristics of the dance. I find Alec's choreography, when applied to a dancer of Kelly's level, to be very much full of "flash and trash" and not to be showing a lot of actual ballroom partner dancing.

And I still can't stand to look at her dancing.

[mamboqueen]

I hate to keep "dittoing" you, Laura, but I feel the exact same way.

[pygmalion]

I agree, too, MQ. 8) What I like to see is dance moves executed well, however simple the moves may be. Complex moves executed badly? Painful to watch, IMO. :?

[randomMysh]

Ditto.

That's what was so appealing about John's dancing, IMHO. Charlotte gave him classic, non-flashy moves that were appropriate for his level and let him show how hard he's been working on the basics. If I were studying ballroom right now, I'd take all the lessons I can afford with her after seeing that. All the others? Not really.

I think they should have actual ballroom people picking the pros based on the teaching ablility. I mean, some of the "pros" on the show were amateurs, weren't they? They might be good dancers, but if you're going to focus on the celebrities as much as they did, wouldn't you want good teachers rather than just good dancers?
Same goes for the music. The people picking the music obviously did not understand ballroom. I think they were working too hard to make the music a "crowd pleaser", and completely ignored the danceablility of it.

All that said, I think it's really awesome to have a ballroom show on TV.

[Laura]

None of the pros were amateurs. Alec & Edyta only "turned pro" last year, but they've been teaching for a lot longer than that. Thing is, though, that they've been teaching kids in a youth dancesport program, where they can teach them by rote and scream at them if they don't listen. Teaching and choreographing for Pro/Am adults is a lot different.

[discovery]

I would add to this that non-dancers or beginning dancers (i.e., most of Dancing with the Stars audience) will like flash and trash over basic quality. To them it's just more exciting and they don't have the refined eye to see the difference. It's only dancers who sit and talk about "basic quality".

It's like I remember as a kid just loving McDonald's and how it was so great whenever we got to go. Now I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole (most of the time anyway); my tastes have refined. Ask any kid whether they want McDonald's or Ruth's Chris and you can bet they'll pick the Happy Meal over the Filet. Dancers have a more refined taste with regard to dance than the general non-dancing public. It's not even necessarily better it's just refined.

[Laura]

It's not even necessarily better it's just refined.

I can't agree with this statement, no matter if you are talking about McDonald's vs. Ruth's Chris or "Dancing with the Stars." The food at Ruth's Chris is better: higher grades of meat, cooked to order rather than mass-cooked and then reheated by microwave, fresher and healthier side dishes. There's nothing wrong with either place, but to say that one isn't necessarily better than the other and it's all just a matter of degrees of refinement is an over-simplification. Same for the dancing.

[Chris Stratton]

My feeling is that starting to learn about an aspect of dancing goes hand in hand with beginning to notice it's application or lack, and the resulting consequences, in others.

[BrookeErin]

better AND refined 8)

and RM, you wouldn't want at least one lesson from Alec? ;)

[Kitty]

better AND refined 8)

and RM, you wouldn't want at least one lesson from Alec? ;)


I wouldn't. But, like randomMysh, I'd schedule as many lessons with Charlotte as possible if she was around.

[swan]

Thoughts on flash & trash, choreography & danceability...

I watched week 5 again, some of Ashley's choreography were the SAME as John & Charlotte. Lots of 'basics' there. It might not be executed as elegantly. Also the music piece was more 'crowd pleasing' perhaps than the traditional elegant, flowy foxtrot. Talk about unfair judging. Not comparing Charlotte & Ashley, I didn't think Joey's foot work was any messier than John's! Both had posture problems.

And as for Kelly & Alec, it's because Kelly's doing the dips & splits, Vs. Charlotte doing a nice develope & all the roundes. I actually didn't think it was that trashy on Kelly's part, her attempt was not all failure.

But it also goes to show why this show would be judged so differently from our real ballroom comps!

In real comps, men's frame & leading ability would be judged more than the women's ability - as evident in Pro/Am comps. But in reality show, the amateur men actually have more upside than the women! Because the female pros could do all those difficult flashy stuff beautifully (Rachel was an exception because of her ballet background). So it could be 'unbearable' for some people to watch.

To be fair, I thought Kelly's lines were quite elegant in this episode, at her level. She did huntched up a bit here & there, but overall, not unbearable to watch. I've seen enough pro/am comps, and she did better than a lot of American Smooth Pro/Am gals out there!

I'd say the next season, probably all couples should bring a balance between elegance/grace and the flashy moves.

John/Charlotte's were sometimes a bit too quiet for TV audience taste - so we do need a bit more excitement.

And after rewatching Week 5, I actually didn't think the Eye of Tiger piece interpretation was too bad :) In fact, it was entertaining & that Paso, I'd re-rank it to be #1 among the 3 couples!

I'm starting to watch this show w/ a different eye than I would for a real ballroom competition (or even Pro/Am comps!)

[pygmalion]

So you see differences between the watch and the re-watch? I've noticed the same in myself. 8) :)

[Infosaturated]

I found out (from Alec) that his music for the paso was assigned. He didn't have a choice and was told that in England it is used as paso music.

What type of music is "Let's Get Loud" by J Lo? I mean from a dance perspective. This will be Kelly and Alec's freestyle music.

[Larinda McRaven]

Cha Cha

[alemana]

you know, if putting a rhythmically ungifted soap opera star in navel-baring two-piece gowns gets more folks into the studios and more eyeballs on PBS' broadcast of OSB this year, i say rock on.

i myself am not the target audience for DWS - i realize that now. which is good, because i experience the broadcasts with an excruciating mix of visceral pain and horror.

[Indiana_Jay]

It would have added to Ashley and Joey's paso doble to have a paso doble version of Eye of the Tiger. Or a paso doble version of some other crowd pleasing song. And that would work fine as far as entertaining the American public.

Tacad, this is something I've thought throughout the series. My wife and I are beginning ballroom dancers (just signed up for lessons last week), but we both have degrees in music.

I think we understand why the producers are programming pop music over music that's traditional to the dances (although it's ironic that the show's theme music is cool, appropriate latin music).

We've never, however, understood why, with a live band (and presumably an arranger to write for the band), they don't program appropriately re-styled versions of the pop tunes they choose. It would be so easy to do a tango version of this tune or a samba version of that. Putting in authentic rhythms, etc. would not make a song unrecognizable to the general audience, but it would sure help us see music and dances that seem to relate to each other!

[pygmalion]

you know, if putting a rhythmically ungifted soap opera star in navel-baring two-piece gowns gets more folks into the studios and more eyeballs on PBS' broadcast of OSB this year, i say rock on.

i myself am not the target audience for DWS - i realize that now. which is good, because i experience the broadcasts with an excruciating mix of visceral pain and horror.

You crack me up. 8) :lol: :lol:

[Purr]

What are the dances for the final week? Or do John and Kelly get to choose their dances? Also, will the other dancers (Trista, Evander, Rachel and Joey) come back for one final dance? Somehow, the producers have to fill the hour with something...

[bjp22tango]

you know, if putting a rhythmically ungifted soap opera star in navel-baring two-piece gowns gets more folks into the studios and more eyeballs on PBS' broadcast of OSB this year, i say rock on.

Is the OSB (Ohio Star Ball - broadcast as Championship Ballroom Dancing) back on PBS? I thought it was discontinued and not picked back up?

[pygmalion]

What are the dances for the final week? Or do John and Kelly get to choose their dances? Also, will the other dancers (Trista, Evander, Rachel and Joey) come back for one final dance? Somehow, the producers have to fill the hour with something...

I've been wondering about that, too. :?

[Larinda McRaven]

you know, if putting a rhythmically ungifted soap opera star in navel-baring two-piece gowns gets more folks into the studios and more eyeballs on PBS' broadcast of OSB this year, i say rock on.

Is the OSB (Ohio Star Ball - broadcast as Championship Ballroom Dancing) back on PBS? I thought it was discontinued and not picked back up?

Actually it will be filmed this year! The Smooth and Rhythm will be filmed, including the new catagory, Smooth and Rhythm Solos... :D

[alemana]

yes, and this weekend at Manhattan they were also talking about how much pro-am was planned to make the broadcast as well - people were really buzzing about it.

[SDsalsaguy]

So.... any two DF people want to join a friend and eye at the taping? Please PM me ASAP! :wink:

[alemana]

WAH!!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

WAH!!!!
I'm sure you could get a flight in time! :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

No one??? :shock:

[Infosaturated]

Each couple, including the eliminated couples, will choose one dance from the dances they already performed.

John and Kelly will both do a freestyle number of their choice. Kelly's music will be "Let's Get Loud" by J Lo.

I don't know what number John will be dancing to.

[pygmalion]

Each couple, including the eliminated couples, will choose one dance from the dances they already performed.

John and Kelly will both do a freestyle number of their choice. Kelly's music will be "Let's Get Loud" by J Lo.

I don't know what number John will be dancing to.

Thanks. I've been asking. I'm glad to get the details. :D

[discovery]

Each couple, including the eliminated couples, will choose one dance from the dances they already performed.


That would be cool but why on earth would they do that? I don't see how it would integrate with the show.

JOOC, if memory serves I remember you said that you weren't a ballroom dancer and yet at the same time you seem to have some intimate knowledge of the show. Are you in TV production or something? (If you care to share, if not that's cool.)

[Infosaturated]

Each couple, including the eliminated couples, will choose one dance from the dances they already performed.


That would be cool but why on earth would they do that? I don't see how it would integrate with the show.

JOOC, if memory serves I remember you said that you weren't a ballroom dancer and yet at the same time you seem to have some intimate knowledge of the show. Are you in TV production or something? (If you care to share, if not that's cool.)

I am just so addicted to this show that I read everything I can find. Alec chats with fans once a week on his and Kelly's DWTS website. I don't have a link handy, but a newspaper printed that Kelly will be doing the samba and John will be doing the quickstep. I don't know what John will be using for the freestyle dance.

The article also said that each couple will only be doing 30 seconds of the dance they had already done, which seems even weirder to me. I don't understand the point of bringing back all the couples to dance again in the first place, 30 seconds makes it even more bizarre.

I would have much preferred that the time be spent on exhibition pieces from the pros. I am just dying to see them dance with pro-partners. The demo clips at the beginning of the show are so tantilizingly short.

Internally when they cut the clip, I am going, no no wait, just a sec, that was way too fast, let me see the rest &^%* you!

It would seem a fitting finale.

[discovery]

I am just dying to see them dance with pro-partners. The demo clips at the beginning of the show are so tantilizingly short.

I know-- I love seeing the clips, especially because they are pros who don't normally dance together. I really enjoy watching Louis Van Amstel with anna Trebunskaya

[SDsalsaguy]

I love seeing the clips, especially because they are pros who don't normally dance together.
Ditto!

I really enjoy watching Louis Van Amstel with Anna Trebunskaya
Double Ditto!

[pygmalion]

Have fun tonight, SD. :D